Creation philosophy

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Zl'f has never actually used the NND in combat, and most of the villains she'd be likely to need it against, such as bricks, are fairly likely to have the proper defense anyway. Autofire X3 takes too much END, although it's a great fight stopper against an opponent with low defenses like another MA (7d6 just won't bother most bricks). Her most common use of the VA is Penetrating. She doesn't generally fight the enemy's brick; that's more Silhouette's forte. Zl'f takes on the MA's and non-flying EB's; and assists other teammates as she can.

 

I started thumbing through CKC after this thread got going, and there are quite a few bricks in there with 12+ OCVs after levels that would have a fair chance of tagging Zl'f in combat (far from Ki-Rin's 1 out of 216; some of these guys would have nearly 50% odds). She'd have to Block a lot of those attacks to stay in the fight, and those become Phases she can't attack in.

 

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years, and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years' date=' and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.[/quote']That pretty well sums it up. I know I shouldn't be so defensive, but it's kinda like someone badmouthed my kid. I'm proud of my character and the way I run her. I guess I'm trying (rather unsuccessfully) to explain why she's not unbalancing.

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

That pretty well sums it up. I know I shouldn't be so defensive' date=' but it's kinda like someone badmouthed my kid. I'm proud of my character and the way I run her. I guess I'm trying (rather unsuccessfully) to explain [i']why[/i] she's not unbalancing.

 

Different campaigns have different standards and play styles. I wouldn't worry about a character like Zl'f in most of the higher point games I've run, so long as I trusted the player. However, as I'm not in your campaign, you don't need to worry too much about my opinion either.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Zl'f seems dangerous' date=' but not unbeatable. Also, she doesn't seem like a very forgiving character. Her attacks drop off quickly in effectiveness against higher Def foes, and many enemies will be able to circumvent her DCV. If you mess up one phase, then Zl'f will probably be knocked out for the rest of the fight.[/quote']Well, to be perfectly honest, even with her low defenses Zl'f has seldom been put out of fight completely even if hit. With her REC 12 she usually manages to get back into action if she doesn't get hit again while she's down unless it's very late in the fight, and her teammates are very good at covering downed comrades. (Only protecting innocents would take a higher priority; if that means letting the villain(s) escape then so be it.) Of course, she's returned the favor more than once.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Different campaigns have different standards and play styles. I wouldn't worry about a character like Zl'f in most of the higher point games I've run' date=' so long as I trusted the player. However, as I'm not in your campaign, you don't need to worry too much about my opinion either. [/quote']I don't worry about your opinion; but I do respect it.

[Blackjack]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!

...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

 

No - because most speedsters rely on their movement velocity (Move Through, Passing Strike, etc.) to do damage to their opponents. Generally speaking, if you trap a speedster in an Entangle or a Force Wall were they don't have room to accelerate, they are trapped. A Martial Artist does the same damage in a 2x2 ring as they do in an open field...

 

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

 

That's _half_ the typical 12 DC average of most superhero campaigns. She can't do normal STUN damage to to most bricks on an average roll:

7 * 3.5 = 25 STUN - 20 PD (which is LOW for a brick if we're honest with each other...) and it'll take _days_ to take them down. The NND is even 2 DCs below the 12 DC average and doesn't work _at all_ on armored opponents. In my experience there simply aren't that many unarmored opponents in the superhero world...

 

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...

(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

 

Uh, 215/216? No... Her best OCV is with an attack is 17 with a Sacrifice Strike that does 10d6 and leaves her with a 12 DCV - meaning she can do below average damage and give most opponents a 45-50% chance to return the favor. Can she hit, yes, with love taps. Can she avoid attacks, absolutely, and spend the whole fight dancing but you can't attack while dodging... What she does instead is a little bit of both - which means she is effective, no more, no less, in combat...

 

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

 

It just doesn't work out that way - see above, do the math...

 

Treb' date=' you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.[/quote']

 

You're entitled to believe that our campaign is "one h&ll of a high powered campaign," but as one of the GMs in question, I know for a FACT that I'm not being conned...

 

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

 

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but the facts simply disagree. Most bricks (375-425 points) in the CKC can hold their own against Zl'f (a 400 point character). How do I know? Because I've run the games where it's happened.

[Blackjack]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

1= This character only has to Block' date=' Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.[/quote']

 

Except that, the average base CV in our game is 11-12, and your example assumes that Zl'f can use her levels but her opponent can't use any levels they may have. When you compare apples to _apples,_ things tend to even out...

 

TBF' date=' the 43 Dex is probably so high as to be wasteful, and Z'lf would be more effective if she had 37 Dex and 4 overall levels.[/quote']

 

Please understand that this is part of Zl'f's _concept._ She's supposed to be the most agile person on the _planet_ - the BEST at what she does. She suffers for that by being vulnerable to _any_ attack that can manage to hit her.

 

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise' date=' she teleports out. And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.[/quote']

 

Again, you make these blanket statements that simply are not the case in our campaign. (BTW: the teleport is "blink of an eye" movement - it gives her no more or special mobility than her usual Running...) Anyone can see what hex she's in at any moment, so I don't even understand your statement there... and if Dodges "the vast majority of the time," then yes, she won't be hit any more often than Spider-Man, but she also won't be hitting - she still can't Dodge and Attack in the same phase no matter how fast she is...

 

True. Never argued that her Regen was anything more than icing. As I said' date=' my main issue is the extreme ratio between how easy it is for her to damage others vs. how hard it is for others to damage her.[/quote']

 

And, as someone who has actually _seen_ that ratio in action and fought against it, I don't think it's "extreme" at all. YMMV, and that's fine, but that's not the _experience_ of those of us who are actually _in_ the campaign.

 

We aren't there and we have no idea how hard the GM is working to deal with this character. OTOH' date=' (and this is scary) it's possible that ALL of that characters in the MidGuard campaign are just as powerful in each their own way. If so, the GM must be really humping to give them challenges (or the players like cake walks.[/quote']

 

Then please take MY word for it as the GM you are speaking of... I plan my threats to meet the challenge that is Midguard. Zl'f is an equally significant part of my planning as any other member of the team, and you can ask my other players if they feel like they've been on a "cake walk" after my games...

 

I will say this - part of the challenge I present to them involves _role-playing_ and _problem-solving,_ not just fisticuffs, and it is in the role-playing and problem-solving that Midguard _really_ shines. They can face danger in combat, but they are even better at playing the game when the dice _aren't_ rolling...

 

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen' date=' neither of those has any chance against her.[/quote']

 

You can keep saying it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make your assertion true. I've NEVER special designed/modified an opponent just for Zl'f - and it wouldn't work even if I did. If an opponent appears to be a "Zl'f-buster," then one of her teammates jumps in and they generally trade opponents. It happens all the time in our campaign.

 

Again, her movement is 0 END. Her 12 REC is plenty unless she's all-out attacking. Her 9 SPD and 43 Dex means she can hold actions and go whenever she wants better than any character you've ever seen.

 

Believe what you wish, Ki-Rin. Those of us who actually _play_ with this character know better...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP.

 

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.)

 

Well, Lariat isn't ever proposed as a "fair" character. Gary uses her as evidence that STR and DEX are too good.

 

Incidently, hitting campaign [in context of board, this means "most campaigns"] limits on everything while spending minimal amounts on skills and non-combat abilities is the first sign of munch.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!!

I haven't looked at any of the characters besides Z'lf posted here yet, but given what I've seen of Mike's posts, I'd EXPECT Lariat to be even more combat efficient than Z'lf. That doesn't mean I'd go any easier on him or Lariat either...

 

Lariat is scary. 30 Dex, up to 32/32 defenses, and a 15d6 attack at 14 OCV.

...Ummm, NO! H&LL NO. Etc. And as Trebuchet correctly surmises, even more so than for Z'lf.

 

...and now do deal with the histronics:

Are you even capable of reading a character sheet; or are you simply so determined to "prove" your non-existant point you can't even see the reality? Zl'f does a maximum of 10d6 including Damage Classes. Her 5d6 NND is equivalent to 10DC. It could be argued her 7d6 Variable (with up to +1/2 Advantages such as AP or AoE) is equal to 10.5 DC, but at 4X the END of her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike it's not much if any more effective. (I have in fact deliberately prevented her combined SPD + DC from equaling 20 because that's the guideline we use in our campaign for rough combat balance.)

 

Zl'f has 12 PD. 12 ED. Period. Two thirds of it is Resistant, and one half of it is Hardened (Combat Luck). She has TWO levels of Combat Luck, not six. Would it help if I sent you the HD file so you can read it on your preferred character format?

(etc,etc ...rest of the same tone snipped...)

Let's try and take it calmly one thing at a time:

1- C-a--l---m down. No one is attacking you personally.

2- Now let's deal with "can I read a character sheet" Quote:

"12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes "

"4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike"

Last time I checked an 8d6 attack +3DC is an 11d6 attack? Now I DID read the sheet hurriedly. Z'lf's MS is Str (3d6 for Z'lf) + 2d6 + 3DC = 8d6 with a maximum of 10d6.

Yes I made mistake and I apologize. Happy?

 

3- ...And again I quote from the character sheet you posted:

"15 Str 5", "18 Dex 16", "12 PD 3", "12 ED 2", "12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)"

15/5 + 3 CP + 6 = 12 PD, 18/5 + 2 + 6 = 11.6 = 12 ED

Again I made a mistake (yes, I was at work, but no excuses) and I apoligize for it.

 

4- 12/12 PD/ED (8/8 rPD/rED)

 

...and all of this means Force1's calculator comes up with

CR= OR + DR + MR = 47 + 53 + 61 = 161

 

IOW, my mistakes mattered very little in her final score. Z'lf is definitely a high powered combat threat.

 

I expect that Lariat is worse. I post him next

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Lariat

Ann Bowen

 

60 Str 50

30 Dex 60

33 Con 46

10 Body 0

18 Int 8

14 Ego 8

15 Pre 5

22 Com 6

12 PD 0

12 ED 5

6 SPD 20

15 Rec -8

66 End 0

57 Stun 0

 

200 characteristics cost

 

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

 

15 EC force tendrils

15 12/12 force field 1/2 end

11 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4) limited body parts (-1/4)

15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)

10 missile deflection all adjacent hexes cost end (-1/2)

9 360 degree spatial awareness +3 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

 

16 8/8 armor OIF costume

 

7 explosion on 60 str personal immunity on explosion X10 end cost (-4) (emergency power)

 

Martial arts

4 Fast Strike 14d6

3 Martial Grab 70 str

3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5

6 2 levels with MA

 

3 Acrobatics

3 Breakfall

 

Total OCV/DCV of 10 with 2 levels. 32/32 def, 20 resistent.

 

Hmmm. Unless I've done something wrong, Force1's CR rating system gives

CR = OR + DR + MR = 45 + 51 + 59 = 155

suggesting that Lariat is actually slightly less dangerous than Z'lf.

 

This might be silly given that Lariat has those extra limbs and that explosion with personal immunity that the program doesn't seem to take into account.

 

OTOH, it's an eye opener just how close in combat effectiveness the CR systems thinks the two characters are.

[David Blue]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I am so not seeing the problem with Zl'f. The gamemaster knows everything about how she works.

 

However, the fact that we have intelligent people unable to agree over which hero might be unbalanced and why underlines one of the problems with Hero System as a superhero game. It's not transparent. It never was, even when it was Champions, and it's getting worse, not better.

 

In that sense, I like Gary's Lariat. With a little experience, you can look at her in a few seconds or a couple of minutes at most, and say no, unless your game is so high-powered that this really is what you want. In that sense, she's an ideal build.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields

 

CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6

 

A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6

 

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

 

Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality...

 

EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Well, Lariat isn't ever proposed as a "fair" character. Gary uses her as evidence that STR and DEX are too good.

 

Incidently, hitting campaign [in context of board, this means "most campaigns"] limits on everything while spending minimal amounts on skills and non-combat abilities is the first sign of munch.

 

 

I did actually play a toned down version of Lariat for a few years. She's not just a posterchild for why Str and Dex are too cheap.

 

Lariat spent 31 pts on non-combat skills and comeliness. It's not quite the usual 10% that I prefer, but I don't think you can really characterize it as "minimal" expenditure.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Hmmm. Unless I've done something wrong, Force1's CR rating system gives

CR = OR + DR + MR = 45 + 51 + 59 = 155

suggesting that Lariat is actually slightly less dangerous than Z'lf.

 

This might be silly given that Lariat has those extra limbs and that explosion with personal immunity that the program doesn't seem to take into account.

 

OTOH, it's an eye opener just how close in combat effectiveness the CR systems thinks the two characters are.

Or an eye opening example of how inadequate that combat effectiveness program actually is. Given that Lariat would clearly mop up the floor with Zl'f despite being rated as only 6 points lower than Zl'f should be a pretty good indication that ratings program isn't worth the bandwidth it's posted on. It's far too concerned with how many individual attacks a character has rather than the substance of those attacks. In the case of martial artists, who may indeed have a number of unique martial maneuvers, it rates each maneuver as an individual attack even if all of the attacks are essentially doing the same thing: purely physical damage within a very narrow spectrum of damage classes. (As an example, Zl'f's martial maneuvers range from 7d6 to 10d6; hardly enough difference to get excited about.) It would make more sense to only use the highest DC attack and perhaps the one which provides the highest OCV.

 

Try using Keneton's Combat Effectiveness Rating spreadsheet (I think it's available in the Free Stuff section) if you want a combat evaluator with a bit more transparency and ability to see subtler differences. It's still inadequate (As Keneton himself admits), but it's vastly superior to the one you're using. No ratings system can possibly substitute for careful examination by the GM within the context of the character's own campaign, because every campaign is different. Those campaigns (about 50%, from what I've seen on the boards) which use the official Champions Universe will probably vary less than made-up-from-whole-cloth campaigns like ours. There are probably campaigns out there where Zl'f would be nearly unstoppable; and other campaigns ostensibly at the same power level where she'd get killed her first time out. Same character, different campaigns, different results.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I am so not seeing the problem with Zl'f. The gamemaster knows everything about how she works.

 

However, the fact that we have intelligent people unable to agree over which hero might be unbalanced and why underlines one of the problems with Hero System as a superhero game. It's not transparent. It never was, even when it was Champions, and it's getting worse, not better.

 

I think this is an outgrowth of a flexible system. Systems like M&M which impose strict maxima for what would translate, in Hero terms, to OCV, DCV, DC and defenses, as well as numnerous other areas, sacrifice some flexibility for reduced complexity. By having no such caps, Hero permits greater flexibility at the cost of greater complexity, and a greater onus on players and GM's to balance the game themselves.

 

Maybe better, maybe worse. Look what hapens in D&D if someone gets the combat rating wrong...

 

This also highlights the ineffectiveness of formulaic combat rating systems. One simply builds to the areas where the formula breaks down. The system is such that formuli are never wholly effective, and judgement is required.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Let's try and take it calmly one thing at a time:

1- C-a--l---m down. No one is attacking you personally.

Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.), but it came across as one. You weren't saying "Gosh, Zl'f sure has a high CV and SPD, doesn't that unbalance your campaign?" Even after I explained how it worked you continued to flatly assert that I was wrong even within the context of my own campaign. You insinuated that either my GM's are a bunch of flunkies or that MidGuard is really "Zl'f & Her Not So Amazing Friends." Actually, I'd rank Zl'f as the third or fourth most powerful member of MidGuard, which puts her solidly in the middle of our team roster.

 

2- Now let's deal with "can I read a character sheet" Quote:

"12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes "

"4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike"

Last time I checked an 8d6 attack +3DC is an 11d6 attack? Now I DID read the sheet hurriedly. Z'lf's MS is Str (3d6 for Z'lf) + 2d6 + 3DC = 8d6 with a maximum of 10d6.

Yes I made mistake and I apologize. Happy?

It's the standard Hero Boards format for Hero Designer. Mistakes like that are hard to rationalise. Simply reading what her STR and martial maneuvers were should have told you her damage numbers already included her extra Damage Classes.

 

3- ...And again I quote from the character sheet you posted:

"15 Str 5", "18 Dex 16", "12 PD 3", "12 ED 2", "12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)"

15/5 + 3 CP + 6 = 12 PD, 18/5 + 2 + 6 = 11.6 = 12 ED

Again I made a mistake (yes, I was at work, but no excuses) and I apoligize for it.

See Point #2.

 

4- 12/12 PD/ED (8/8 rPD/rED)

 

...and all of this means Force1's calculator comes up with

CR= OR + DR + MR = 47 + 53 + 61 = 161

 

IOW, my mistakes mattered very little in her final score. Z'lf is definitely a high powered combat threat.

I've never claimed otherwise. She's a 400+ point character in a 350 point or less world. Of course, so are her teammates and the opponents we routinely face (Does Eurostar ring any bells?). She is a highly efficient combatant and certainly pulls her own weight within the context of our team. She does not, however, totally dominate combat like you seem to feel she must. I've described more than once on these boards how Zl'f has had to Leg Sweep, Block, or otherwise discommodate opponents she was incapable of actually hurting in order to allow her heavier-hitting teammates to put the bad guy down. She's effective because I never stop looking for ways for her to contribute to the team's overall effort to beat the bad guys, not because her victory in any given fight is predetermined or inevitable. (Zl'f survived a fight with Eurostar's Scorpia only because when Scorpia hit(!) with her claws she failed to roll a good Stun Multiplier. Has Scorpia rolled higher than a '3' we might not be having this conversation.)

[David Blue]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

No. Does it look like Last Hero would beat Zl'f?

 

My point is, Zl'f's gamemaster knows far better than any combat calculator could how this character plays in his campaign, and he's fine with it. That's all there is that needs to be known about whether Zl'f is balanced.

 

The problem is not that there's something wrong with an experienced, in-control gamemaster looking at a character who fits perfectly into his game and has for a long time and being happy with the player and the character. The problem is: how can other gamemasters and players best achieve such characters!?

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields

 

CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6

 

A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6

 

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

 

Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality...

 

EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

 

To determine DC of an attack using that calculator, simply take the active points (including all advantage's) and divide by 5.

 

I didn't write this calculator. I saved the url from a post here on the hero boards. I have found it to be fairly accurate in determining a characters effectiveness.

[Lamrok]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years' date=' and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Looking at a freshly designed character is one thing. Looking at a character that has been adjusted over many sessions with ample input from the GM is another.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

No. Does it look like Last Hero would beat Zl'f?

 

My point is, Zl'f's gamemaster knows far better than any combat calculator could how this character plays in his campaign, and he's fine with it. That's all there is that needs to be known about whether Zl'f is balanced.

 

The problem is not that there's something wrong with an experienced, in-control gamemaster looking at a character who fits perfectly into his game and has for a long time and being happy with the player and the character. The problem is: how can other gamemasters and players best achieve such characters!?

It's no state secret: good communication between all the players and GM(s). What isn't visible on Zl'f's character sheet are the numerous Power proposals I've made over the years that the GM's have vetoed as unbalancing or out of concept (very few of those), nor is it obvious which abilities the GMs may have subtlely (or not so subtlely) encouraged (such as Flying Dodge) encouraged me to buy for her. Nor are discussions between individual players as to what does and does not tread on another player's toes noted on character sheets even though they may be equally important in deciding on new purchases.

 

Character sheets at best are a snapshot; they give no sense of where the character's abilities and experiences have been nor where the character is going. A character, like a historical personage, can only be understood fully within the context of the times and events in which they lived and interacted. Without that understanding, characters are only two-dimensional at best. Without context, objective evaluations are impossible.

 

And FTR, I don't think Zl'f would stand a chance in combat against Captain America or a properly constructed Champions version. She's good, but he's well... Cap.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

And FTR, I don't think Zl'f would stand a chance in combat against Captain America or a properly constructed Champions version. She's good, but he's well... Cap.

 

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

 

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

 

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

 

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 12d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

 

In short,

1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.

2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.

3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.

Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

 

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

 

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

 

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

 

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 10d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

 

In short,

1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.

2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.

3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.

Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

 

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

 

I don't think that Z'lf would 'beat the crap' out of Cap. Would she win? Probably. However, my Cap has a base CV of 9 (26dex) with at least 4 8pt combat levels and 4 overall levels. Z'lf still gets to dictate the battle with her 43 dex and 9 spd. I am gonna run her numbers thru. I knew her movement score was going to be outrageous, but I want to double check her OR. To determine how effective a character is going to be against someone, I have found it best to compare OR to DR.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.)' date=' but it came across as one.[/quote']

Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread.

[Zed-F]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I would never give Cap a base CV of 8, unless I also gave him a bazillion levels to make up the difference between that and where his CV ought to be. He is an extremely experienced fighter. Your assertion that a properly built Cap would never hit Z'lf seems ridiculous. If that is the case for *your* version of Cap, I would submit that perhaps you didn't do as good a job as you think you did.

 

I bet Cap can do a lot better taking Z'lf's hits than she can take one of his. He hits harder and probably has Find Weakness to boot, plus he has the shield with which to absorb her attacks.

 

Assuming we are not talking about a complete mismatch in power levels, no amount of stats can make up for poor tactics on the part of one party or the other. If Cap has DEX 23 and 6-8 combat levels (which seems fair) he can at any point have a DCV of 16 or so, or an OCV of 16 or so, before considering martial maneuvers. That gives him pretty good odds of being able to get hits in or avoid getting hit in return. Z'lf would do better in a multi-opponent engagement, but one-on-one CSLs are in many ways better than straight DEX.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

 

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

 

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

 

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 10d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

 

In short,

1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.

2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.

3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.

Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

 

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

 

 

How many Levels does your Cap have? All he needs is to hit once with a +2 OCV maneuver such as Fast Strike or Leg Sweep and Zl'f is toast.