Creation philosophy

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.), but it came across as one.

Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread.

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

 

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.

[Mentor]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

How many Levels does your Cap have? All he needs is to hit once with a +2 OCV maneuver such as Fast Strike or Leg Sweep and Zl'f is toast.

Exactly. Zl'f has has been stunned by MAs, Bricks, Mentalla, Energy Projectors and even once by a lucky mook (although that just pissed her off and, well you can imagine...)in our campaign. The reason the Zl'f is a hero is that she toughed it out, got back up and got back in to the fight.

 

Now I don't know how someone else would build the ultimated super soldier fighting machine with a unique shield and many years of experience, but my build version would take Zl'f to school. She might be the top student in that class, but Cap would win. He is tougher and can hit harder.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I ran the figures on Z'lf myself just now.

 

Here is what I came up with.

 

OR=51 + DR=49 + MR=41 for a total of 141.

 

I used a 16 ocv, 16 dcv (based on overall levels used on ocv and martial strike), 14 dc (assuming martial strike with +4hth w/+1/2 var adv in multipower), 5 different types of attack (hth, ma's, nnd, ha, eb), 9 spd, 20" movement, 4 types of movement (significant leap, run, teleport, swimming) 12 pd/ep 8 resistant, 29 stun, 45 pts of missile refelct and 10pts of regen.

 

These are all based on active points. I guess these 2 questions remain:

 

Is she balanced for her campaign?

 

I have no doubt about that. To many people posting here stating she does work in her campaign.

 

Is she very powerful?

 

Absolutely no doubt with no reservations.

 

If she is running in a very powerful campaign she is no doubt balanced. Anything less and she is one of the most powerful characters in the campaign.

 

edited: should be 14dc, not 17dc. Lowered appropriate ratings.

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Exactly. Zl'f has has been stunned by MAs, Bricks, Mentalla, Energy Projectors and even once by a lucky mook (although that just pissed her off and, well you can imagine...)in our campaign. The reason the Zl'f is a hero is that she toughed it out, got back up and got back in to the fight.

 

Now I don't know how someone else would build the ultimated super soldier fighting machine with a unique shield and many years of experience, but my build version would take Zl'f to school. She might be the top student in that class, but Cap would win. He is tougher and can hit harder.

 

Yup. I'd set his CV+Levels to max out at the campaign limit, based on his performance in the comics. Talking about a Comic Book character's representation outside of the context of the campaign in which he's to be played is meaningless.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Treb' date=' it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread. [/quote']I'm not accusing Ki-Rin of being a troll; I was merely relaying the fact that another poster in this thread PM'd me and said in his opinion that's what Ki-Rin was.

 

I think Ki-Rin is just someone who is somewhat... forceful with his views, and occasionally goes over the top.

 

Just like me, in other words.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

 

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.

Agreed. The discussion of this topic (not Zl'f, but how characters balance differs between the paper version and what actually happens in-game) is valuable.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I ran the figures on Z'lf myself just now.

 

Here is what I came up with.

 

OR=51 + DR=49 + MR=41 for a total of 141.

 

I used a 16 ocv, 16 dcv (based on overall levels used on ocv and martial strike), 14 dc (assuming martial strike with +4hth w/+1/2 var adv in multipower), 5 different types of attack (hth, ma's, nnd, ha, eb), 9 spd, 20" movement, 4 types of movement (significant leap, run, teleport, swimming) 12 pd/ep 8 resistant, 29 stun, 45 pts of missile refelct and 10pts of regen.

 

These are all based on active points. I guess these 2 questions remain:

 

Is she balanced for her campaign?

 

I have no doubt about that. To many people posting here stating she does work in her campaign.

 

Is she very powerful?

 

Absolutely no doubt with no reservations.

 

If she is running in a very powerful campaign she is no doubt balanced. Anything less and she is one of the most powerful characters in the campaign.

 

edited: should be 14dc, not 17dc. Lowered appropriate ratings.

Um, no. Her maximum Pushed attack is 12 DC's. The Advantages on the HA in her MP do not add to her martial maneuvers' damage, nor can they stack.

 

I doubt that will change the rating much; perhaps lower it by a few points. But rating are irrelevant anyway.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

 

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

 

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

 

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

 

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

 

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

 

If it was just a '7d6' attack, I doubt if there would be such an uproar...

 

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Um' date=' no. Her maximum [i']Pushed[/i] attack is 12 DC's. The Advantages on the HA in her MP do not add to her martial maneuvers' damage, nor can they stack.

 

I doubt that will change the rating much; perhaps lower it by a few points. But rating are irrelevant anyway.

 

Perhaps you could explain why the hth attack does not add to her martial attack?

 

I saw nothing in the build that would indicate that.

 

And like you said about opinions, they don't seem to matter to you at least...

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

 

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

 

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

 

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

 

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

 

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

 

 

9 Base CV +4 Levels +2 OCV from Fast Strike or Leg Sweep = 15 OCV = Crumpled up heap of Zl'f long before she takes him out. Her best bet is to run away.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

 

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.

o v O

 

. . . .

 

O v o

 

. . . .

 

 

 

. . . .

 

Never mind.

[Mentor]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

 

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

 

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

 

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 12d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

 

In short,

1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.

2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.

3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.

Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

 

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

The fallacy of this whole contention is that Zl'f doesn't fight Cap or the dark version in an arena. Zl'f fights villains who are either more ruthless, often from ambush, usually having chosen the fight terrain, whom have studied the actions of Midguard or using normals as shields or hostages. The numbers never tell it all. Only game play matters, thus it can hardly be considered "propaganda" which I think you have to agree is a rather derisive term.

 

Secondly, Midguard are the Avengers of the Europa 2000 campaign world so they are supposed to be the toughest team in this campaign, but nowhere near as capable as the Marvel Universe version, Thor and the Hulk alone being able to take the team out.

 

Thirdly and most importantly, the numbers are never more than a vaguely useful guideline in determining capability as the effects of things like flying opponents, villains with Damage Shield, CSLs and purely tough defenses often impact Zl'f far more than most of the other PCs on the team. While I must consider Zl'f's abilities in designing a scenario, that applies to all the PCs in our campaign. It is never more difficult to find a challenge for the Zl'f PC than our versitile tunnelling demibrick, Vesuvius, our teleporting 50 STR boxer Sidestep, our mystical cage fighter Cloud dragon, the detective/wizard Magister or the three previously mentioned characters. They all have thier schtick and none is overbalanced. Unless they work as a team and as heroes, they are in a world of huet. None of the scenarios I have run have been walkovers nor have they been fudged to save the team. More than once has one PC been standing to keep the villains busy while the rest of the team recovers from being stunned and it has only been Zl'f twice.

 

What the numbers do not reflect is that in a given turn Zl'f might hit an opponent four or five times and leak 20 to 25 points of STUN through against 30PD in a turn while our brick Silhouette might hit only once, and get get 23 STUN through, but stuns the opponent as it all gets through at once. This doesn't even account for Knockback. Thunderbird, the Energy projector is flying and his Lightning Bolt would likely hit the same opponent 2 times, getting 24 STUN through if we assume the ED is the same as the PD. Now in this given turn, only Zl'f has defenses low enough for there to be any risk that one and definitely two hits (unlikely) averaging 10 to 12D6 would stun her. So all in all, the difference of liklihood of being downed vs downing an opponent at 350 to 400 character points is pretty balanced, with the overall edge going to Silhouette or Thunderbird, depending on the opponents and especially the location of the fight, which in occasional situations does favor Zl'f.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

 

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

 

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

 

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

 

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

 

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

Well, that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and at least 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

 

I'm a big Cap fan myself.

[Mentor]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Well' date=' that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and [i']at least[/i] 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

 

I'm a big Cap fan myself.

Sumbitch! You aren't supposed to predict how I'd use him against you.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Perhaps you could explain why the hth attack does not add to her martial attack?

 

I saw nothing in the build that would indicate that.

 

And like you said about opinions, they don't seem to matter to you at least...

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er, Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er' date=' Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)[/quote']

 

Except with GM permission, as per UMA p.127, but yup.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Sumbitch! You aren't supposed to predict how I'd use him against you.

Hey' date=' [b']I[/b] know that; Zl'f doesn't. The bouncing shield gets 'em every time.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er' date=' Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)[/quote']

 

So she still hits for 12dc. I believe that will still lower her OR by 2-3.

 

12dc is still a very powerful attack for 16ocv/16dcv 43dex/9spd.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Except with GM permission' date=' as per UMA p.127, but yup.[/quote']I wouldn't ever ask for such permission, and would refuse it if granted. That would make her grossly unbalanced.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So over On Topic for the thread:

 

If there's anything this digression proves it's that high Dex, high SPD, high skill, low or moderate damage, low defense characters are not only a viable character concept...

 

...they are easily made just as or even more deadly than ones with big attacks and high defenses.

 

"Speed Kills" was the bumper sticker. "Dex and SPD kills" or perhaps "The Quick or The Dead" is the equivalent HERO one.

 

The other point IMHO clearly made is that is very easy to create a game-balance threatening Combat Monster at the typical CP levels of a Champions campaign, and to do it via multiple character archetypes.

 

To keep campaigns from being broken, you have to set a performance envelope for your PC's based on skill*SPD*(expected damage) and tactical mobility and ENFORCE it.

OTOH, the typical Champions envelope is large enough to allow many different character archetypes that effectively deliver similar results to be safely expressed.

 

Legal characters like Lariat and Z'lf WILL break most campaigns, but that is only because they are outside the performance envelope.

 

So, as always, the responsibility falls on us GMs to be a sane final authority as to what is and is not allowed.

 

*Troll crawls back under his bridge to earn gold for living... ...oh, and picks nose and waves bugger covered middle finger at @$$hat who called him "just" a troll*

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So she still hits for 12dc. I believe that will still lower her OR by 2-3.

 

12dc is still a very powerful attack for 16ocv/16dcv 43dex/9spd.

No, she hits for 10 DC unless she Pushes. And with 9 SPD she doesn't have enough END to Push regularly in combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Well' date=' that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and [i']at least[/i] 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

 

Pretty much exactly how I would se that battle going - Z'lf might get a shot or two past the shield, and Cap would have trouble hitting her. He'd then use his many levels with the shield (he must have a lot to be an accurate homage given how many bounces he can make that shield do) to bounce the shioeld off a couple of objects to connect with Z'lf for a Surprise bonus. End of battle.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So over On Topic for the thread:

 

If there's anything this digression proves it's that high Dex, high SPD, high skill, low or moderate damage, low defense characters are not only a viable character concept...

 

...they are easily made just as or even more deadly than ones with big attacks and high defenses.

 

"Speed Kills" was the bumper sticker. "Dex and SPD kills" or perhaps "The Quick or The Dead" is the equivalent HERO one.

 

The other point IMHO clearly made is that is very easy to create a game-balance threatening Combat Monster at the typical CP levels of a Champions campaign, and to do it via multiple character archetypes.

 

To keep campaigns from being broken, you have to set a performance envelope for your PC's based on skill*SPD*(expected damage) and tactical mobility and ENFORCE it.

OTOH, the typical Champions envelope is large enough to allow many different character archetypes that effectively deliver similar results to be safely expressed.

 

Legal characters like Lariat and Z'lf WILL break most campaigns, but that is only because they are outside the performance envelope.

 

So, as always, the responsibility falls on us GMs to be a sane final authority as to what is and is not allowed.

Gee, wasn't that my point all along? That it's not necessary to have characters who can take multiple hits in order to have an effective character? All characters must be measured against the campaign they're intended for; anything else is pure speculation.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

o v O

 

. . . .

 

O v o

 

. . . .

 

 

 

. . . .

 

Never mind.

ROTFLMAO!! Thanks Alice, I +NEEDED+ that.

 

EDIT: Oh God, I;'m still laughing so hard I can barely type... ...or breathe