Creation philosophy

[Sean Waters]

I was looking at the sample characters in the big black book, trying to work out some system for comparing the combat efficiency of various characters: my conclusion is that you just can’t do it, even when you are only comparing two characters, unless they are built in a very straightforward way. Nevermind; looking at the character builds got me thinking.

 

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

 

In practice, if a character is meant to be taking 12d6 EBs then I start out thinking, well 42 points of STUN on average, we’ll probably be needing about 25 to 30 defence, so we’re taking (on average) 12-17 per hit. CON will almost always be 23 or, occasionally 28 (I usually play 300-350 point characters). I mean, 30 CON just isn’t as efficient as other numbers…and 23 CON should be enough to prevent stunning on anything but a really lucky roll.

 

The way the characters I the book are built, they’ll be taking 22 STUN per hit. Blimey. The ‘brick’ will be unconscious in 3 hits, and the armour guy in just two. They’ll be lucky to last a turn!

 

That’s just stupid…isn’t it?

 

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

 

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

 

It’s a strange thought, but maybe we should pay rather more attention to the character build guidelines and the sample characters, and create characters that are designed to be superheroes rather than characters that are designed to be points efficient: we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

 

It might feel odd, but I suspect it could be fun!

 

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

One of the changes in design philosophy implemented by DOJ with 5e is that most characters can only take two or three hits before they go down, as opposed to the three or four it took in 4th Edition. The idea was to both speed up combat and to encourage use of maneuvers.

 

In our campaign, it works like this:

 

My character goes down after any campaign-average hit of 12d6. (12 PD; 18 CON)

 

Our other MA goes down after two hits. (18 PD, 26 CON)

 

Our two demibricks typically take three hits to put down. (PD and CON average in the mid 20s)

 

Our EB takes 5 or 6 hits of physical attacks, 7 or 8 of energy. (26 PD/32 ED + 25% DR Energy, 23 CON)

 

Our brick takes 6 or 7 hits to take down. (33 PD, 33 CON)

 

Our mentalist will go down after one hit UNLESS his 95 point VPP is in physical defenses (such as Force Field), in which case he may never fall even with only 14 PD, 20 CON. (I should note he's never done this, but he could in theory.)

 

 

I think this is how it should be, but you'll find plenty of others who disagree. But it's easy enough to "fix" if you think it's broken.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

While Treb's example sets an interesting comparison, it doesn't tell the whoe story, at least IMO. You would think Z'lf is not built for combat, reading it. After all, one average hit would take her down. I suspect, however, that it probaby takes less time for a campaign-average opponent to land 3 hits on the demibricks (or even 6 or 7 on the Brick) then to get the lucky roll needed to land a single hit on Z'lf. Not being hit is a pretty effective defense as well, and this makes comparing characters even more difficult.

 

Let's consider a 350 point character with an ocv of between 8 and 10. Z'lf's 14 base DCV makes landing a hit pretty tough, and her superior speed means she has the flexibility to (martial?) dodge many shots, meaning she's a very tough target. That opponent is toast.

 

Unless, of course, he switches to his Area Effect 1 hex multipower slot and does 8d6 (but generally connects) instead of 12d6 (that almost never hits). But then, Z;lf can dive for cover, so we may be back to a more fair fight. [i can guarantee that, against any semi-competent team of opponents, Z'lf's second dive for cover will probably see her hospitalized, as a teammate takes advantage of her reduced DCV before she can roll free).

[David Blue]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

 

The way the characters I the book are built, they’ll be taking 22 STUN per hit. Blimey. The ‘brick’ will be unconscious in 3 hits, and the armour guy in just two. They’ll be lucky to last a turn!

 

That’s just stupid…isn’t it?

 

...

 

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

 

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

 

... we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

You are not paranoid, you are correct. Your character will soon be unconscious. Bring a book to read, while the cleverly built characters fight on for hours after you are out. I recommend the Iliad. Dream of mighty heroes ...

 

That isn't an accomplishment, good or bad. That's just how it is.

 

Last Hero represents the concentrated essence of what I like to build and play. Not just lately (5th Edition) - always. For me, in terms of how I think a hero should be, this is The Perfect Build.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30583

 

You can know everything about how he thinks, fights and gets about in seconds. First impressions are correct, there are no tricks.

 

It's easy for the Yancy Street gang to annoy this character, which is how it should be. I want to give the gamemaster complete freedom. It's easy to "touch" this character, psychologically and physically. There's no need to do anything artificial to get Last Hero's attention, so most comic "bits" including light-hearted ones are "on". He's a hero who belongs in a comic book, the kind I happily pay for and read over and over.

 

Ideally Last Hero would be involved in magnificent multi-page brawls, in the style of the early Hulk vs. the Thing, but this can never be. I have found characters built in my "clean" straightforward way rarely see Phase Eleven, if that. Often the martial artists and others are out after the first hit, which is apt to come soon.

 

The only thing that makes Last Hero workable is that Hero System loves bricks. Not as much as I do, but a lot.

 

But that's not enough. The game also has other, stronger preferences.

 

Nice guys finish, or rather are finished off, first in Hero.

 

Want a different result from this character design philosophy? Play a game that rewards and punishes different things.

 

When I see a better game than Hero System, I'll play it. I haven't seen it yet though. And I'm not holding my breath.

[concord]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you' date=' and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.[/size']

We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

While Treb's example sets an interesting comparison, it doesn't tell the whoe story, at least IMO. You would think Z'lf is not built for combat, reading it. After all, one average hit would take her down. I suspect, however, that it probaby takes less time for a campaign-average opponent to land 3 hits on the demibricks (or even 6 or 7 on the Brick) then to get the lucky roll needed to land a single hit on Z'lf. Not being hit is a pretty effective defense as well, and this makes comparing characters even more difficult.

 

Let's consider a 350 point character with an ocv of between 8 and 10. Z'lf's 14 base DCV makes landing a hit pretty tough, and her superior speed means she has the flexibility to (martial?) dodge many shots, meaning she's a very tough target. That opponent is toast.

 

Unless, of course, he switches to his Area Effect 1 hex multipower slot and does 8d6 (but generally connects) instead of 12d6 (that almost never hits). But then, Z;lf can dive for cover, so we may be back to a more fair fight. [i can guarantee that, against any semi-competent team of opponents, Z'lf's second dive for cover will probably see her hospitalized, as a teammate takes advantage of her reduced DCV before she can roll free).

I wasn't trying to imply Zl'f wasn't effective in combat, because she certainly is. My point was that if and when she gets hit she'll probably go nighty-night. While she's adept at DfC and with her superior speed can often recover from DfC's negative effects before an opponent can capitalize on it, good enemy teamwork or a bit of luck can still put her down. I believe I've mentioned she gets Stunned or KO'd in about 1/3 of our battles, but with her high REC and SPD she almost always manages to reenter the fray. And of course, MidGuard is no slouch with team tactics either, and protecting a downed comrade takes priority over almost anything else. Many's the Phase Zl'f has stood over a Stunned or unconscious comrade or provided a high speed evac, and vice versa.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you' date=' and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.[/size']

 

Actually, I don't think this build is far off from depictions of cinematic martial arts combat. Two opponents of a similar level of ability rarely actually hit each other; their combats are punctuated by blocks and dodges of their opponent's blows. The first one to land a solid hit usually will stun his opponent and quickly put him down, but that typically takes a while to happen. If you allow the optional Roll With A Punch Maneuver, the fighter getting hit still has a chance to reduce the damage. Also, don't forget that in an Heroic-level game using Hit Locations, a successful attack may still strike a location that cuts the Stun damage in half.

 

OTOH, in fights within this genre between a skilled fighter and grunts, the grunts are usually at least stunned and often taken out the first time the fighter connects with one. The level of damage thrown by the example NH character would certainly allow for that.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Eggshells and Sledgehammers -- have to remember that one. I've always called it d2 myself: "Whoever blows their first roll..."

 

Now, having played the opposite extreme (where battles regularly creep into the 2nd turn), I'm a fan of the middle ground. I purposely guide the players toward the "4-5 hits" territory when building their characters and build the opposition accordingly. The lowest DEF among the players is 20, and that's for a character with a permanent Darkness field... Average is around 30, although everybody agrees they should add 5-10 DEF in the near future.

[austenandrews]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Maybe it's just the people I've played with, but in my experience players hate to miss and hate to get taken out quickly. Both of these conditions seem to argue strongly against 5E's "2-shot takedowns." Then again I can't remember the last time I ran a character from a rulebook - I'm not sure I ever have, in 20+ years - so I'm not really worried about it.

[pinecone]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

My basic "philosophy" is you outa take from 10 to 20 from a hit (the harder to hit the more you should take) and deF+con should equal or exceed the average attack...this lets haymakers and pushes get stun results and that seems to "feel" right....I don't think there is a magic number for fun though...every group has it's own "style" I've played with groups where it was a basic rule that Every hero had a NND of some sort...I've played in groups where Nobody even considered having a NND...the ballence in those two groups is going to be very differant. The NND group liked High Cons and low Def. The no NND crowd liked High Def and medium Con......ballence flows from play and back to play.....it all a style issue I guess.....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I wasn't trying to imply Zl'f wasn't effective in combat' date=' because she certainly is. My point was that if and when she gets hit she'll probably go nighty-night.[/quote']

 

That wasn't my point in any case. The real point is that it is difficult to measure a character's combat capability because there is a huge number of variables. I'm sure I could post a fully legal 350 point character who could clean Z'lf's clock. I'm equally sure you could then post a 350 point character against whom my Z'lf Killer would have no hope. And onwards, ad infinitum. Coimbat capability depends on the nature of the opposition at least as much on the stats of the specific character.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

That wasn't my point in any case. The real point is that it is difficult to measure a character's combat capability because there is a huge number of variables. I'm sure I could post a fully legal 350 point character who could clean Z'lf's clock. I'm equally sure you could then post a 350 point character against whom my Z'lf Killer would have no hope. And onwards' date=' ad infinitum. Coimbat capability depends on the nature of the opposition at least as much on the stats of the specific character.[/quote']Of course. That was my point. I dispute the entire premise of this thread. That's also the problem I have with not only the "How many hits can Hero X take before he takes a dive?" and with "combat ratings" in their myriad guises. Not only is it virtually impossible to rate characters except against a specific other character under controlled circumstances (generally "arena battles"), but since 90% of Champions battles are team vs team fights the possible variables become nearly infinite. Any single character's strengths and weaknesses may well be covered by a teammate, rendering direct comparison pointless. If Character X takes a dive in Phase 3 but Character Y covers her until she Recovers, then both take down Character Z together, then Character X's weakness wasn't as important as it would have been if Character X was facing Character Z alone.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?

Certainly. I don't consider her a speedster' date=' but a very fast MA. She'd get hurt if I tried to run her as a speedster.ZL'FPlayer: Steve "Trebuchet" Willson

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
43	DEX	39
18	CON	16
12	BODY	4
13	INT	3
14	EGO	8
13	PRE	3
20	COM	5
12	PD	3
12	ED	2
9	SPD	7
12	REC	10
36	END	0
29	STUN	0

30" RUN08" SWIM012" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 105

Cost	Power	END
22	Enhanced Reflexes: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
1u	1) Thrown Objects: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. PD), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2); OIF (Objects of Opportunity) (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	4
1u	2) Superspeed Strikes: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	4
1u	3) Precision Strike: EB 5d6 (vs. PD), NND (Rigid Armor or PD Force Field; +1/2) (37 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	4
1u	4) Blink of an Eye: Teleportation 11", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift; Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	4
2u	5) Catching Bullets: Missile Reflection (Bullets & Shrapnel), Reflect At Any Target; Restrainable (-1/2), Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	0
1u	6) Superhuman Legs: Leaping +9" (12" forward, 6" upward) (Accurate), (0 END; +1/2); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
1u	7) Superhuman Legs: Running +10" (30" total), (0 END; +1/2); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
1u	8) Superhuman Musculature: Swimming +6" (8" total), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Rapid Noncombat Movement (+1/4), (0 END; +1/2), Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
30	Phenomenal Coordination: +20 DEX; No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
33	Amazing Speed: +5 SPD; OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)
23	Superfast Muscles: Running +14" (30" total), (1/2 END; +1/4); OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)	1
2	Vibrational Field: Damage Resistance (2 PD/2 ED)	0
11	Phenomenal Eyesight: +4 PER with Sight Group and Rapid (x10): +1	0
4	Ultraviolet Vision: Ultraviolet Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); Flashed as Sight (-1/4)	0
1	Ultrasonic Hearing: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (3 Active Points); High Frequencies Only (-1)	0
7	Super-Efficient Metabolism: Life Support (Extended Breathing (1 END/Turn) 1 END per Turn; Longevity 800 Years; Reduced Sleep Only needs 2 hours/night; Safe in Extreme Cold)	0
5	Enhanced Metabolism: Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Hour (-2 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)	0
2	Team Radio (Earbug): Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); Team Discount (-1 3/4), IIF Fragile (Earbug; -1/2), Limited Frequencies (-1/2), Flashed as Hearing (-1/4)	0

Powers Cost: 149

Cost	Martial Arts Maneuver
12	+3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes
5	Sacrifice Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 10d6 Strike
4	Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike
4	Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove
3	Legsweep/Wrist Throw: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 7d6 Strike, Target Falls
3	Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls
4	Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4	Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort
5	Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4	Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR vs. Grabs
3	Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on
2	Weapon Element: Empty Hand, Staffs, Sticks

Martial Arts Cost: 53

Cost	Skill
11	Acrobatics 22-
3	Breakfall 18-
3	Dexterity Tricks (DEX-based) 18-
5	Rapid Attack (HTH)
3	Teamwork 18-
1	WF: Fist-Loads, Staffs, Sticks, Unarmed Combat
3	PS: Executive Assistant (INT-based) 12-
3	Bureaucratics 12-
3	Computer Programming 12-
3	High Society 12-
0	Language: Russian (Native)
3	Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)
4	Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic)
0	Language: Danish (Fluent conversation)
0	Language: Swedish (Fluent conversation)
3	Riding (Horses) 18-
2	Animal Handler (Equines) 12-
3	Combat Driving: Skis 18-
1	Combat Piloting 8-
3	TF: Automobiles, Ice Skating, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir, Small Aircraft
0	KS: Chess 11-
0	PS: Gymnastics 11-
0	AK: Russia 8-
20	+2 Overall

Skills Cost: 77

Cost	Perk
2	Contact: Colonel Kershenko, Russian superagent (Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity) 8-
2	Alternate Identity: Pavla Sergetov

Perks Cost: 4

Cost	Talent
12	Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
3	Supreme Balance (Narrow Surfaces)

Talents Cost: 15

Val	Disadvantages
15	Social Limitation: Secret ID: Pavla Sergetov Frequently (11-), Major
10	Social Limitation: Small, looks like and often taken for a minor Frequently (11-), Minor
15	DNPC: Gräfeldr Family (Hrolf, Gyda, Inge, Eirik) 8- (Infrequently), Normal, Useful noncombat position or skills, Group DNPC (x4 DNPCs) [Notes: Only Inge knows Zl'f's true identity']
10	Physical Limitation: Small and light: (4'10" tall, 100 lbs., +3" KB) (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)
10	Physical Limitation: Colorblind (Sees only UV color): Infrequently, Greatly Impairing
25	Susceptibility: Desolidified Objects, 2d6 damage per Segment Uncommon
15	Hunted: Radical Russian Nationalists: 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish
20	Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing Common, Total
15	Psychological Limitation: Overconfident Common, Strong
15	Psychological Limitation: Protect Innocents Common, Strong

Disadvantage Points: 150

Base Points: 200Experience Required: 53Total Experience Available: 54Experience Unspent: 1Total Character Cost: 403

Height: 1.48 m	Hair: Blonde
Weight: 45.00 kg	Eyes: Gray

Appearance: A tiny yet stunningly beautiful girl who physically appears to be about 14 years old, Elena is 147 cm tall and weighs 45 kg; most people would describe her as elfin. She has a lithe and obviously athletic figure with the broad shoulders and sleek musculature characteristic of world-class gymnasts. Elena has the full lips, triangular face and high cheekbones common to many ethnic Russians. She has gray eyes and a fair and flawless complexion with light freckles; she sunburns very easily. Although when she was competing she cut her thick blond hair very short, it is now a full meter long and hangs to mid-thigh. While adventuring she keeps her hair in a ponytail, in normal guise she generally wears her hair coiled up or in a French braid. Her costume is a strapless one-piece white spandex bodysuit cut high on the hips, with an off-the-shoulder woven white shirt belted over it. She wears no jewelry (except a small gold Russian Orthodox crucifix), mask, gloves or footwear.Personality: While she originally regarded superheroing as almost a lark, of late she has come to take her responsibilities more seriously and as a result has evolved into a much more effective heroine. She is still only 22, but has been a superheroine now for more than 5 years. Deeply religious, for Elena superheroing is a method both to help others and to challenge herself in a way she no longer can with gymnastics. A classic overachiever, Elena is never satisfied with being "just good enough" at anything. As a superheroine she tends to adopt a very somber demeanor, since it is often difficult to be taken seriously when you're smaller than most 12-year olds. On the other hand, people are often struck by how much poise Elena has for someone who seems so young.

 

When not saving the world, Elena is an energetic, warm and friendly girl who is liked by everyone who knows her. She has an innocent way about her that most people find very appealing, with a warm smile and a kind word for everyone. She is never too busy to help out. She rooms with a Norwegian family, the Gräfeldrs, who have become her surrogate family. The family's daughter, Inge, is Elena's age and has become her best friend and the only person outside MidGuard to know Elena's true identity and of her activities as a superheroine. Her favorite leisure activities are swimming and horseback riding; in 2002 she bought herself an Appaloosa stallion she named Comanche. (She even shovels out the stables when she is in town.)

Quote:"What's wrong? I thought you said you were the best hand-to-hand fighter in your regiment? What was it, a regiment of schoolchildren?"Background: Born in Leningrad (Petrograd), Russia in March 1983, Elena Alekseyeva won 2 Bronze Medals at the 1996 Summer Olympic Games in gymnastics (Uneven Bars, Balance Beam) at age 13; well before her superhuman powers developed and were ultimately discovered more than 2 years later. Once discovered, Elena adamantly refused to go to work as a super-agent for her country's government, although they brought considerable pressure to bear. After the (apparent) death of her father in February of 2000 she was forced to flee Russia, and at this time resides in Olso, Norway, where she became a founding member of the world's premier superhero team, MidGuard. She is the Deputy (currently Acting) Team Leader of MidGuard. She now goes by the nom de guerre of Zl'f, which is the Russian word for 'pixie' or 'sprite'.Powers/Tactics: Probably the most agile human being who has ever lived; Elena can perform with ease acrobatic maneuvers most gymnasts would tell you were literally impossible. Combined with her jaw-dropping speed and extraordinary strength Elena is without question one of the top two or three martial artists in the world. Her eclectic fighting style is an acrobatic whirlwind of leaps, cartwheels, tumbles, somersaults, jumps, back flips, bounces, spinning kicks, high speed punches, precision strikes, backhand blows and leg sweeps performed in three dimensions and at a pace that leaves most fighters dizzy. She would defeat a half dozen high-caliber black belts in mere seconds. Her reflexes are so fast she can literally dodge bullets or, if she is so inclined, even redirect them. Although she is light on defenses, Zl'f is an aggressive combatant who typically takes the fight to her opponents, depending on her incredible reflexes to avoid injury. While she is easily stunned if hit, her high recovery generally gets her back into the fight quickly. Her phenomenal running and leaping generally make her the fastest combatant on the battlefield, and she is quick to come to a comrade's aid if needed.Campaign Use: Elena has a carefully constructed cover identity as Pavla Sergetov, a Russian émigré who is executive assistant to billionaire Dr. Eric Thorssen. In his own alternate identity as CyberKnight, Dr. Thorssen is the other founding member of MidGuard. She earns a comfortable $120000 salary as a superheroine with MidGuard. She also attends the University at Oslo, mostly by online courses, with the goal of eventually getting a degree in Computer Science.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Since 4th edition, I've been using a damage system where the better the hit the more damage that gets done. I try and balance the system by seeing how many rolls of 10 or 11 that would knock down a standard straw man opponent (I aim for 4 hits).

 

Essentially the system works on the basis that 10 or 11 or less gets 3 STUN per die in the attack with an extra 1 STUN for every two below and 1 STUN less for every one above.

 

This way, martial artists tend to hit doing maximum damage while bricks tend to score glancing blows. I look at the damage done per turn and seek to assure that fights should take no more than two turns, one turn if it is a toe to toe full on brawl.

 

I get martial artists with low defences, low DC attacks and high CVs while bricks have high defence, high DC attacks and low CVs. Most characters have the same SPD though I'm happy to allow higher or lower SPDs if the other factors are tweaked to get a reasonable damage per turn. (I've had to work hard on autofire and area effect stuff and am still not sure I've got the wrinkles worked out).

 

But yes, the design was definitely aimed toward getting the character archetypes to look better but it had the side effect of controlling the length of combats.

 

 

Doc

[Mike W]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Unfortunately, HERO books have always been full of characters that are poorly built. The European Enemies book for 4th edition had a stretching character(I think she was named Doppleganger) that was 450 points and could be easily taken out by a decent agent with his usual popgun. Pathetic.

 

For us, we like a good story followed by a good fight. So we generally build with the idea that the fight should last about 2 turns of combat - which is pretty close to what the 4th edition was built on. Really, it's not bad if the GM knows his stuff and moves the game along. We had a fight on Tuesday that had 8 power armored thugs, 4 Dreadnaught robots, Sabretooth, and 4 PC characters and it only took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. So we had half the session for roleplaying and half the session for buttkicking.

[David Blue]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

For us' date=' we like a good story followed by a good fight. So we generally build with the idea that the fight should last about 2 turns of combat - which is pretty close to what the 4th edition was built on. Really, it's not bad if the GM knows his stuff and moves the game along. We had a fight on Tuesday that had 8 power armored thugs, 4 Dreadnaught robots, Sabretooth, and 4 PC characters and it only took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. So we had half the session for roleplaying and half the session for buttkicking.[/quote']It sounds like that's working well for you. Could you talk more about what you do to achieve a balance of characters who last about two turns, and speed (and simplicity?) in combat.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?

Certainly. I don't consider her a speedster, but a very fast MA. She'd get hurt if I tried to run her as a speedster.

 

ZL'F

Val Char Cost

15 STR 5

43 DEX 39

18 CON 16

12 BODY 4

13 INT 3

14 EGO 8

13 PRE 3

20 COM 5

 

12 PD 3

12 ED 2

9 SPD 7

12 REC 10

36 END 0

29 STUN 0

 

30" RUN 0

8" SWIM 0

12" LEAP 0

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!

...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

 

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

 

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...

(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

 

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

 

Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.

 

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

[David Blue]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I think Trebuchet's Z'lf looks like an outstanding character. She is supposed to be swift and agile, and she is.

 

You can see that in a game of Sledgehammers and Egg Shells, Z'lf is built to be a winner.

 

concord said: "We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat."

 

That's why Z'lf is so relevant to the thread, which started with the idea: maybe we should build low-defence characters (who will of course be unable to last long in combat, thus speeding up the fights). Z'lf is built with low defences.

 

I imagine her gamememaster knows all about how she works by now.

 

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack. (This is any attack built to kill, with No Normal Defence (NND) Does Body and so on, not just a Killing Attack (HKA or RKA).)

 

One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

Killing Grond is a trivial task. You just build an appropriate beginning character with the typical Autofire etc. killing attack.

 

Hero System does favour brawn to some extent. But it favours intelligence in character design and Variable Power Pool (VPP) use infinitely more.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

The debate on this thread highlights for me one of the greatest benefits and one of the greatest burdens of HERO System. It's possible to make these kinds of specific, quantifiable adjustments to character builds, and estimate what effect they will have on game play. That allows for considerable fine-tuning of designs without having to change the system itself. OTOH you often have to have experience and savvy with the system to know how to make those adjustments.

 

Thank the Powers That Be for these boards. You can pose just about any "how to" questions for any problem you may encounter, and expect a bunch of helpful replies from veteran players in short order.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!

...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

 

I buy Treb's classification. A speedster uses their velocity to do damage. Z'lf would take damage from her own move by's.

 

This character basically hits 215/216' date=' doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)[/quote']

 

A Brick with 25 defenses. 7d6 averages 24.5 damage per hit. Maybe he takes 5 points half the time, for 25 STUN over a 9 hit turn. Then he recovers all but 5 in PS 12 with his 20 REC. This assumes he doesn't take Z'lf out with his 1 hex area attack focused via Objects of Opportunity, of course.

 

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

 

A legit homage of the Hulk would, IMOP, have more than 25 defenses. More like 30 or 35. The NND? I could classify the Hulk's tough hide as "rigid physical armor". Nerve strikes like Z'lf's generally have been ineffectual against the Hulk. All he needs is a large, sturdy object to swing or throw and they will be hosing Z'lf off the pavement shortly.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Speedsters use Move By/Through or one of a martial Passing attacks; Zlf does not. She closes and fights hand to hand. If she did a Move Through at full speed she'd only have 6 PD (Combat Luck does not apply against damage you deliberately inflicted on yourself); meaning on an average 30" Move Through she'd take

 

It's not a definition of speedster that I've ever used. My favourite comic speedster, Johnny Quick, didn't as far as I recall use his speed for extra damage.

 

However - I always say that the best definition of a character comes from the player rather than any game stats....

 

Doc

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!

...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

 

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

 

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...

(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

 

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

 

Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.

 

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

Speedsters use Move By/Through or one of a martial Passing attacks; Zlf does not. She closes and fights hand to hand. If she did a Move Through at full speed she'd only have 6 PD (Combat Luck, which constitutes fully 50% of her defenses, does not apply against damage you deliberately inflicted on yourself); meaning on an average 30" Move Through she'd do 13d6 damage to her target and take "only" 6.6d6 if she does Knockback. On average that would leak 16.75 Stun through her PD. 16 points of Stun is not something to ignore when you have only 18 CON and 29 Stun, especially since a roll which is only slightly (7%) above average will Stun her, hence instantly cancelling her primary defense: mobility. And in either case, if she fails to generate KB she'll take all 13d6 (45 Stun) and be at -38 Stun after subtracting her defenses. (In her 12 year career, she's done Move Throughs only twice, both times to save a teammate. Once she Stunned herself, once she avoided it by only 1 point.) She's not a speedster. She gets hit with some regularity with AoE or EX attacks, and has been hit twice by the same brick in combat. (Admittedly he had good rolls both times, but my point is she got hit by a brick in HtH combat, not just another MA or a speedster.) And of course any egoist or drainer can eat her for lunch because she has no exotic defenses: No Flash Def, no Power Def, no Mental Def. (And her defenses against Damage Shields are also only 6 PD/6 ED.)

 

As for regular MA combat, mere 8-10d6 attacks are not particularly powerful against most bricks, and other fast characters like martial artists are far more likely to avoid getting hit and far more likely to hit her. As I believe I'd observed earlier in this thread, an average 8.5d6 hit will Stun her and any 12d6 hit will KO her in one shot. That's not hard to do with a flying EB who spreads his attack or has AoE, especially against the level of villains MidGuard fights. We're the Avengers of our campaign world; we don't get the easy stuff.

 

Grond has 40 PD; he'd be functionally immune to her normal MA attacks. He might be affected by her 5d6 NND (and I would not object if my GM said his skin constitutes "rigid" armor and Grond is thus immune to her NND; I conceive this attack as being precisely like the martial maneuver Nerve Strike) in which case she could probably take him down in 6 Phases if he sticks around, assuming he doesn't just Leap away. And of course he has a 10 OCV in HtH, meaning he has a 7- (16.2%) chance of hitting her base DCV every Phase, assuming he doesn't use an Area Effect attack like dropping a bus on her. Any hit by Grond would not only KO Zl'f but would average 6 BODY through her full defenses and put her in the -22 Stun range.

 

Don't assume I'm somehow claiming she's a wimpy opponent; because I'm not. She is well balanced and highly effective within the constraints of both our team and our campaign as a whole. And that's been my point all along in this thread: All characters can only be evaluated within their own setting. "Balance" cannot be evaluated in a vaccuum or across campaigns. In some of the campaigns I've heard about in these boards I suspect Zl'f would become a greasy red smear in her first combat. She's built for our campaign; and she works well in our campaign. That's all I'm particularly concerned about. YMMV.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack.

I've played around with an "evil" version of Zl'f with two 2d6 HKA swords and Two-Weapon Fighting, and it's not pretty.

 

Maybe I could call her "Cuisinart."

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I think Trebuchet's Z'lf looks like an outstanding character. She is supposed to be swift and agile, and she is.

To the point where there may be game balance issues...

 

 

You can see that in a game of Sledgehammers and Egg Shells, Z'lf is built to be a winner.

In ANY version of Champions, she's a winner in a physical fight. (215/216)*9*(7d6 or 5d6 NND) + only (1/216) of being hit + 30" of movement at 43 Dex and 9 SPD sees to that. And that's without Pushing or a Haymaker (which this character should only do, given her low defenses, if she's sure she can "one shot" the target).

 

Despite Treb's protestations to the contrary, there's no brick outside of the Dr Destroyer class that I've ever seen who going to have even a 7- to hit her.

Between the base CV of 14 + the 2 overall levels (which she will not need for offense vs the vast majority of Bricks so her base DCV is really at least 16 in that situation) + Martial Block/Dodge/FDodge (now we're up to at least DCV 18) + the 43 Dex + even a tiny amount of tactics no one is ever going to have better than a 1/216 chance of hitting her without an AoE attack...

 

...and then we get into the mobility implied by 30" run + 9 SPD + Teleport + etc which means even the AoE doesn't have better than 1/216 to hit unless Treb makes a tactical error (doubtful given his experience) or Z'lf is caught by surprise or the GM +REALLY+ piles it on...

 

...and then we have Regeneration if she does get out-of-position and unlucky enough to get hit (but this is just icing).

 

Her defences don't matter because she practically always does damage and her opponent's practically never can. This is the HERO equivalent of the 1ed OGRE vs GEV problem with Z'lf being analogous to the GEV.

 

 

concord said: "We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat."

 

That's why Z'lf is so relevant to the thread, which started with the idea: maybe we should build low-defence characters (who will of course be unable to last long in combat, thus speeding up the fights). Z'lf is built with low defences.

...and she is such a Combat Monster that she may NOT be relevant to this thread because she's a game balance problem in every long term campaign I've ever been in or run.

 

Give me a BALANCED (which means different Archetypes have a fair chance against it) character for a typical Champions campaign that relies on mobility, skill, appropriately low damage, and low defenses and then we'll a valid character for this discussion.

 

 

I imagine her gamememaster knows all about how she works by now.

Poor him.

 

 

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack. (This is any attack built to kill, with No Normal Defence (NND) Does Body and so on, not just a Killing Attack (HKA or RKA).)

You are Missing The Point. Of course she could be nastier. Even without touching her defenses or giving her any other attack. Just pick from this list:Combat Sense, Danger Sense, Defense Maneuver, Double Jointed, Fast Draw, Find Weakness, Luck, Armor Piercing Ad, Penetrating Ad, etc. ...In fact, with AP and/or Penetrating I can make her "nastier" and -reduce- the DC of her attacks...

 

It doesn't matter if she can be nastier. She doesn't need to be nastier. She's already too nasty for the majority of long term Champions campaigns I've seen as it is.

 

Stopping her or giving her a fair challenge requires throwing problems at her that will destroy just about any more balanced character. Which means MidGuard should be renamed to "Z'lf and Middling Guardians of Z'lf."

Unless the rest of the players like being Treb's backup band, That's A Problem.

 

 

Killing Grond is a trivial task. You just build an appropriate beginning character with the typical Autofire etc. killing attack.

 

HERO System does favour brawn to some extent. But it favours intelligence in character design and Variable Power Pool (VPP) use infinitely more.

Again, you miss the point. Once we have a balance problem, it doesn't matter that we can create an even worse balance problem.

 

For this character, killing almost anyone is a trivial task. There's a fine line between "intelligent character design" and "campaign breaker", and this is awefully close, if not over, that line for the vast majority of Champions campaigns I've ever seen.

 

That's not to say I don't like the character. OF COURSE I like the character and would beg to be allowed to play it... ... if I didn't care about game balance.