How do you handle Desolidified Players?

[Fionan]

There is a player in my group who wants to run a hero with the Desolid power. Vuln to Mental and Magic. How can the GM harass or threaten the hero game after game. Esp if hero has an attack useable while desolid. ie phasing through someone.

 

I'd appreaciate any suggestions.

Thanks.

 

Fionan.

[Hermit]

Well, I'd take a good look at how common mental or magical attacks are in your group of villains. When Black Palidan throws his mace through someone, being a magical weapon, it may surprise your player. What about a brick who's origin is mystical? Will that count? You need to decide these things. It will help when they inevitiably come up.

 

Also, how well known is the hero and what can affect him/her? If it becomes well known that magic and mental powers can hurt ... more folks will come forewarned and forearmed.

[Fionan]

The Hero is going to be an unknown to begin with. I understand that after he gets a reputation bad guys may be more prepared, but it seems like only if they are expecting him. It seems like the GM, I'm not actually the one running the game, will have to throw magic and mentalists at the party constantly. On the other hand Demon and PSI could become major groups in the city where the game is going to take place. It's easy to get major mileage out of both groups.

 

Fionan.

[TheTemplar]

Well, per FREd, Desolid is to be purchased as being ineffective against a "reasonably common" group of attacks. This leaves the definition of Reasonably common to the GM's. In this instance, if the tone of the campaign is very mystical/magical/psi-powers based, then I think it could be made to work....however, in MOST campaigns, mystical/magical/psi-powers aren't all that common. Especially if he never has to revert back to a solid state to attack. IMHO, this is character has a high potential to unbalance the game. As a GM, I probably would set the active point caps on powers low enough so that buying Desolid w/ the +2 advantage of "Affects Physical World" required to attack while desolid would be impossible (that's 120 active points by itself w/ no other adv.'s or adders on, I believe..I'm at work and don't have FREd w/ me, but as I recall Desolid is 40 pts. and "APW" is a +2 adv.)

 

The only way to make this POSSIBLY closer to balancing would be to make the player define additional instances where his desolid won't help him. (Like vs. Fire, or Cold attacks, for instance...something fairly common.)

 

The alternative, is that you will find yourselves fighting nothing but Mages and Mentalists, because no one else will ever be able to harm him.

 

my 2 gp.

 

-T

[Marchwarden]

IMO, Desolid makes for a poor primary means of defense; it's usually either too good or not good enough in any given encounter ("Here come the Ultimates! You're invincible! Now here comes DEMON! You're toast!"). This is usually not fun to play.

 

Desolid seems to work best in Power Frameworks. A sorcerer with a magic VPP can assume "etherial form" when necessary, but use the points for something else where it wouldn't be appropriate.

 

A very common model for energy projectors is to buy a Multipower with a 60 AP reserve (a common point cap). The slots will generally be an EB and/or RKA, a selection or two from the Flash/Drain/Entangle/Dispel menu, and Desolid with 0 END (special effect: Fiery Form/Body of Light/Whatever). This last slot is known as the "ejector seat", for reasons which ought to be readily deduced. It's only 6 points, so it can function as a secondary defense while leaving enough points for conventional protection.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by TheTemplar

Desolid w/ the +2 advantage of "Affects Physical World" required to attack while desolid would be impossible (that's 120 active points by itself w/ no other adv.'s or adders on, I believe..I'm at work and don't have FREd w/ me, but as I recall Desolid is 40 pts. and "APW" is a +2 adv.)

 

 

APW is an Advantage which has to be bought on OTHER Powers (or STR), not on Desolid itself.

[tesuji]

In "typical" supers games... which is simply a short way of saying "most of them i have participated in or seen, magical and mental would cover the gamut of common.

 

Of course, IIRC, mental is already a "desolid doesn't help" so it really does not count against the limit.

 

In addition to those types of attacks that fall under magic and the freebie mental, flashes also work (though it is likely he will buy cheap levels of flash defense.)

 

Simply put, if the Gm allows magic as common, he IS committing to make magic common.

 

i would not worry all that much about ARW attacks... they will be so low in damage as to be so slow as to be mostly ineffective. For 60 AP the guy can probably afford 3d6 of NND ARW... doing 10 stun per shot average. At "typical" heroing levels the characters expect to take 15-25 stun per hit.

 

The Gm should be able to handle this rate of offense, and as long as someone in the gangs have a potential to affect him, flashes are easy from grenades when magic is not available, it should not be a problem.

[Nucleon]

Try these; Presence attacks, Dispels/Supress, Damage shields, People who have the same effect of Desolidifications, and, of course, Affect Desolid.

[BoloOfEarth]

Given the wonderful versatility of Multipowers, I occasionally arm agents with Multi-weapons. And given the decent chance of Desolid escape hatches, I've had agents with Affects Desolid in one of the slots. (Just because that character isn't known doesn't mean they haven't run into other heroes with Desolid...) I've been tempted to throw an Entangle with AD (a neural scrambler) into the mix, too.

 

So it doesn't have to be magic or mental. It can be multi, too.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

I'd like to thank BoloOfEarth, without whom this rant would have never been written.

 

Agents with affects desolid weapons? Yeah, that's *really* reasonable.

Desolidifiation *should* be hard to completely bypass. They're not freaking *there*. An EGO attack blaster setting could be fun tho...

 

It's a 40+ point power: give them the average of the defense they'd get for say Force Field and some special defenses.

 

I mean, if the character is supposed to immune to most enemies *let them be immune*. If you don't like that, ban them. It's far more reasonable than making the player wish they'd built a differant, actually effective character. (see, one angers them, the other makes them bitter)

 

If the PC is invulnerable, whomp the teammates. 2d6 NND's aren't nearly enough when you're the last man standing. Maybe he gets to help save their asses while they're out cold. Woo hoo, they didn't lose as badly!

 

Heck, whomp the bystanders. While he's plinking away at Strongo, the baby in a pram is in the path of a collapsing building. Looks like he's not taking part in this fight after all...

 

Steal plots from Superman; he's immune to pretty much anything not magical/mental, (yes, not exactly the same; close enough) and he faces difficult challenges.

 

A lot of 'by the book' villain teams have a mentalist; they can whomp him easily. Doubly so if they have a mage. Immune to most of your enemies isn't enough; that one rat-bastard can take you to the cleaners...

 

Superstealthy? Not a problem; they're still visible so security cameras and guards can catch them if they aren't really good at the sneaky (and if they are, they've paid the points for it: LET THEM!)

 

Don't try to nail the character's power specifically. You shouldn't need to.

[Vondy]

Unless they buy their attacks affects solid +2 they have to become solid to actually engage the enemy. That should be plenty of opportunity right there - especially since attacking ends their action.

 

They could theoretically try to abort to deso, but the GM can ask for a DEX contest, and aborting costs an action, so it has its own price anyways.

[Guest innominatus]

Keep in mind, D-Man: unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification).

 

That having been said, the thing I'd point out to Fionan is that Desolid is a two-way street; the hero may be safe from harm, but he probably can't do much to help his comrades in battle, or help protect civilians. Take advantage of this. Force him into situations where he can't just "turtle up" and wait for the bad guys to run out of ammo, or whatever he hopes to accomplish while Desolid. Force him to go tangible to take the bullet (or energy blast, or whatever) that's aimed at some innocent bystander. (Or sock him with the bad press he'd get if he lets innocents get zorched!) Time is on the Desolid character's side, so don't allow him to play the waiting game -- maybe the heroes have to defeat the villain quickly so they have time to disarm the Doomsday Device before it goes off!

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by innominatus

Keep in mind, D-Man: unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification).

That contradicts what I have always been told about Aborting to a defensive axtion: That once you have attacked or taken a Phase-ending action, you cannot the abort to a defensive action such as Diving for Cover or Blocking.

 

Our group has always played it that (for example) once the martial artist Martial Kicks the brick, her Phase is over and the brick may then attempt to hit her without her Martial Dodging or other defensive action. Aborting her next Phase to Dodge or Block does not work once she has ended her current Phase.

 

Is that incorrect?

[Archon]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

That contradicts what I have always been told about Aborting to a defensive axtion: That once you have attacked or taken a Phase-ending action, you cannot the abort to a defensive action such as Diving for Cover or Blocking.

 

Our group has always played it that (for example) once the martial artist Martial Kicks the brick, her Phase is over and the brick may then attempt to hit her without her Martial Dodging or other defensive action. Aborting her next Phase to Dodge or Block does not work once she has ended her current Phase.

 

Is that incorrect?

 

As long as you are on the same segment in which the attack took place, no, you cannot abort to a new action. As soon as you move to the next segment, the PC's next action becomes available as an abort action.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

I'd like to thank BoloOfEarth, without whom this rant would have never been written.

 

Agents with affects desolid weapons? Yeah, that's *really* reasonable.

Desolidifiation *should* be hard to completely bypass. They're not freaking *there*. An EGO attack blaster setting could be fun tho...

 

First of all, I'm assuming from Fionan's post that the character spends much (if not all) of the time Desolid. It doesn't say that explicitly, but if the player makes it possible for the character to attack while Desolid, they're not likely to spend much time any other way.

 

Next, note that I said "occasionally" as to agents with Multipower weapons. I've also used Variable Advantage to fit various +1/2 Advantages (AP, Penetrating, etc.) onto a gun to simulate different types of ammo. However, the presence of *any* advantage has to be feasible.

 

Looking through the 4th Edition VIPER sourcebook, I see two Affects Desolid weapons, plus the agents in the BBB had an Affects Deolid weapon too. Any reasonably large agency (including the government ) would expend money and effort to handle all enemies, including (or especially) those that are difficult to hit or harm. Such weapons shouldn't be common, but they should at least be available.

 

As to the cost of Desolidification affording them some protection, it does. That +1/2 only makes it *possible* to hit the character. It doesn't do anything to increase probability to hit or the level of damage. In fact, if you're going off a point limit, this guarantees the attack will be lower than normal. A 60-point cap means you only have an 8d6 attack. Hardly something to leave heroes quaking in their boots, even at low defense levels. (At average 28 STUN, it wouldn't even CON-stun somebody with 15 total ED and 13 CON.)

 

As to attacking innocents to force him to solidify, in my experience the desolid guy stays that way unless he's the *only* one that can save the civilians. I guess the reasoning is, that's what teammates are for. If Desolid is the character's primary defense, he isn't going to drop it unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

Let's not forget that the character may *always* be Desolid, making that strategy fairly moot.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

A lot of 'by the book' villain teams have a mentalist; they can whomp him easily. Doubly so if they have a mage. Immune to most of your enemies isn't enough; that one rat-bastard can take you to the cleaners...

 

I don't know if your games are different from the ones I've played in or run, but the mentalist seems to be Target #1 every time, especially to the person(s) that can only be affected by said mentalist. Even people with Mental Defense seem to want to trounce the mentalist first. Martial Artists, Bricks, and high-flying Energy Projectors all fear the Mentalist due to the advantages of mental powers cancelling out *their* advantages. Somebody should start a Mentalist Anti-Defamation League or something.

 

Mages come next on the To-Hit parade owing to the fact that most are very versatile. Pity the poor mage/mentalist. Sucks to be him.

 

(Edited to correct spelling error.)

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth

I don't know if your games are different from the ones I've played in or run, but the mentalist seems to be Target #1 every time, especially to the person(s) that can only be affected by said mentalist. Even people with Mental Defense seem to want to trounce the mentalist first. Martial Artists, Bricks, and high-flying Energy Projectors all fear the Mentalist due to the advantages of mental powers cancelling out *their* advantages. Somebody should start a Mentalist Anti-Defamation League or something.

 

Mages come next on the To-Hit parade owing to the fact that most are very versatile. Pity the poor mage/mentalist. Sucks to be him.

 

(Edited to correct spelling error.)

 

It was like that in my games too, anytime a npc mentalist would show up on the battle field, the instant he or she was spotted it was "beat up the Psi guy" time. Wonder if Mages have simular problems in other genre?

[Tim]

Desolid Player?

 

Wow! you have a player that can go desolid? I didn't realize that powers actually existed.

 

Is he a hero IRL? What other powers does he have?

 

 

TimS.

[Guest innominatus]

Of course you can't Abort to a defensive action during a Segment where you've already acted, Trebuchet; I didn't think that even needed to be said.

[Lord Liaden]

Since Desolid is vulnerable to powers defined as Mental Powers under the 5E rules (Mind Control, Ego Attack, etc.) that really wouldn't count as part of the special effects that the player has defined his character as being vulnerable. You might suggest to your GM that "mental powers" can be the SFX of other types of Powers that may be possessed by more supers: Energy Blast, Telekinesis, Entangle or others with "psionic energy" as their effect. With some of the broader interpretations of "magic" suggested earlier, that should provide enough variety that villain encounters won't all feel the same.

 

I agree that an Active Point cap would keep an Affects Solid World Power from being strong enough to act as a character's primary attack, so he or she would have to go solid to use other options. Ultimately, though, if you can justify having Desolid and pay the points for it, you've earned the right to laugh at enemies' attacks whizzing harmlessly through you at least some of the time.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth

First of all, I'm assuming from Fionan's post that the character spends much (if not all) of the time Desolid. It doesn't say that explicitly, but if the player makes it possible for the character to attack while Desolid, they're not likely to spend much time any other way.

 

Next, note that I said "occasionally" as to agents with Multipower weapons. I've also used Variable Advantage to fit various +1/2 Advantages (AP, Penetrating, etc.) onto a gun to simulate different types of ammo. However, the presence of *any* advantage has to be feasible.

 

Looking through the 4th Edition VIPER sourcebook, I see two Affects Desolid weapons, plus the agents in the BBB had an Affects Deolid weapon too. Any reasonably large agency (including the government ) would expend money and effort to handle all enemies, including (or especially) those that are difficult to hit or harm. Such weapons shouldn't be common, but they should at least be available.

 

As to the cost of Desolidification affording them some protection, it does. That +1/2 only makes it *possible* to hit the character. It doesn't do anything to increase probability to hit or the level of damage. In fact, if you're going off a point limit, this guarantees the attack will be lower than normal. A 60-point cap means you only have an 8d6 attack. Hardly something to leave heroes quaking in their boots, even at low defense levels. (At average 28 STUN, it wouldn't even CON-stun somebody with 15 total ED and 13 CON.)

 

As to attacking innocents to force him to solidify, in my experience the desolid guy stays that way unless he's the *only* one that can save the civilians. I guess the reasoning is, that's what teammates are for. If Desolid is the character's primary defense, he isn't going to drop it unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

Let's not forget that the character may *always* be Desolid, making that strategy fairly moot.

 

Ah yes. The good old 'but it's in this book here'.

Note that both your examples predate 5th (and the changes to affects desolid), and use the sfx 'magnetic particles that can affect intangible opponent's'.

Now, the problem is that in a Mechanical system, powers actual effect can vary so widely. What kind of technobabble can explain a weapon that can affect:

 

A) An Astral Projection (affected by mental SFX)

 

Someone Dimensionally shifted (Affected by magic/dimensional)

 

C) A cloud of mist (Affected by wind/AoE)

 

D) A swarm of bees (affected by AoE)

 

E) Hyper-Fast Vibration (affected by Sonics/Cold)

etc.

 

?

 

Yes, they'd *like* to have that kind of weapon. But even the EGO Blaster is more reasonable (this gizmo here is modelled on the neural pathways of TXV130; remember, the sentient psychic robot? Yes, it can only simulate the simplest functions; we in retro-engineering had a bit of difficulty, okay?)

 

Universal Affects Desolid is a load of hooey. 1 in 10 times it's been used it should really apply.

 

'They might miss' ? Generally, you can say this wouldn't change the effect; a miss is a miss, no matter whether you've got 5 PD or 500.

 

60pt cap? Generally that gets applied as 10d6, as AD doesn't increase damage, just effectiveness.

 

Oh, and if he's Desolid *and* has good defense, he's still spent many more point's than those with more efficacious power sets. (I mean, T-port and higher defenses simulates most of desolid right there).

 

And who said anything about forcing him to solidify? Attack innocents to let the bad guys fulfill their mission. Sure, he's still conscious, but they got away with the loot (or whatever). Heck, if you've got a villain with enough defense (including a defense vs his probably NND attack) they can ignore him altogether.

 

You should ask yourself: He spent about 100pts on this power alone. Is he getting enough mileage out of that?

I mean, affects solid world is pricey, and desolid isn't exactly cheap either. They *should* be effective.

Do you hit the brick with nothing but NND's? Do you always give every villain 30pts of mental defense? So why completely hose the guy who can walk through walls?

 

Now, if the enemy *specifically* wants to take down the hero team, and they know about him, that's the time to bring in about 3-5 mages/mentalists to hammer him. But that shouldn't be the whole time.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by innominatus

Of course you can't Abort to a defensive action during a Segment where you've already acted, Trebuchet; I didn't think that even needed to be said.

I didn't either, but your original comment: "unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification)" had me wondering if you had it wrong or I did.

 

Turns out we were both right, it was just a little miscommunication.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Ah yes. The good old 'but it's in this book here'.

Note that both your examples predate 5th (and the changes to affects desolid), and use the sfx 'magnetic particles that can affect intangible opponent's'.

Now, the problem is that in a Mechanical system, powers actual effect can vary so widely. What kind of technobabble can explain a weapon that can affect:

 

A) An Astral Projection (affected by mental SFX)

 

Someone Dimensionally shifted (Affected by magic/dimensional)

 

C) A cloud of mist (Affected by wind/AoE)

 

D) A swarm of bees (affected by AoE)

 

E) Hyper-Fast Vibration (affected by Sonics/Cold)

etc.

 

 

Considering both technobabble and game mechanics, I'd say a burst of ultra-bright light (AVLD vs. Sight Flash Defense, Affects Desolidified), bright enough to cause pain. Or a sonic disruptor (same thing, but vs. Hearing Flash Defense). Unless they're deaf or blind, they're still seeing and hearing the real world, so SFX based on those senses should transfer over. Or for the ultra-tech crowd, how about a gravitic shear grenade? (As GM, I'd give it a -0 Limitation that it doesn't affect Astral Projections; I'm not sure on the Dimensional Shift, though it seems they're still subject to gravity.)

 

The reality is that the GM has to set the level of credibility, including with Affects Desolid. As GM, I've ruled some things in direct and complete opposition to the rules simply because SFX or the situation took precedence. That's the GM's job.

 

Universal Affects Desolid is a load of hooey. 1 in 10 times it's been used it should really apply.

 

Universal *anything* is a load of hooey in the HERO system. There is no "Invulnerable" or "Unstoppable" in HERO, though you can come close if you throw enough points at it.

 

60pt cap? Generally that gets applied as 10d6, as AD doesn't increase damage, just effectiveness.

 

Not in a Multipower it doesn't. A 60-point pool gives you a mere 8d6, less if you have other Advantages.

 

And who said anything about forcing him to solidify?

 

innominatus, for one.

 

I have to run, so I can't continue with this right now. Suffice to say, I'm not trying to hose the Desolid guy. I was just trying to point out a possible way to affect the character *without* resorting to the Mage and Mentalist of the Day. Affects Desolid isn't common in my games. Just a suggestion.

[CrosshairCollie]

Random question: What's the details on the Affects-Physical-World power that this guy has?

 

Secondly, as far as 'universal affects desolid' goes, I'd like to quote (well, paraphrase), the Champions genre book: "A good explanation is worth more than scientific accuracy." So long as it sounds good, it doesn't have to be scientifically feasible.

 

What's the special effect for his Desolidifying, again? I can't recall if you said what it was.

 

Unless he's making the rest of the PCs seem utterly superfluous, you should let him continue as it goes without 'targetting' him, unless he's running into the same people a lot. If they run into your Pet Villain Team often, they should start learning how to deal with 'those constant annoyances!'.

 

On a personal level, I've always ruled that characters with identical Desolidification special effects can affect each other normally. That could be a rude surprise.

[JmOz]

My solution to this problem is actualy quite simple, if a character takes affects solid world he MUST have a hunted that has powers that effect the character while desolid, or to be more honest the character will have a 8- hunted at the very least, if they choose not to take such disad, well they don't get the points but do get the hunted (Most choose to take the hunted)

 

To be honest though it has only come up once or twice, the one time I rememebr was on a mage character, who's desolid was effected by magical attacks, it was easy enough to justify a hunted