How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

[Whitewings]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Yeah' date=' NO-ONE messes with a citizen of Latveria. OTOH, iirc don't a lot of them live the lives of medieval serfs? Live like they are at least 100 years behind the current time?[/quote']

Actually, Latveria has one of the highest standards of living on Marvel Earth. Doom has enacted tough laws on urban development, similar to those in parts of Oregon, and he has enacted statutes aimed at preserving and restoring many of the country's historic sites and structures, but that's hardly the same as "[l]iv[ing] like they are.. 100 years behind the times."

[gewing]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I've kept lots of my Nexus comics, and for pleasure, not as horrible examples.

 

Is Horatio Hellpop a superhero? I don't think so. He's an assassin, a roving executioner, even though his targets are mass murderers who all have it coming.

 

Is he a hero? Maybe. But I'm inclined to think not. His plans to quit killing and become a philanthropic benefactor never work out. Good intentions aren't enough to make you a hero, you need some success - maybe more success than Horatio has enjoyed so far, though Ylum stands enormously to his credit. (Ylum is a democratic world populated by refugees. After he killed the mass-murdering tyrants of the worlds they came from, they would all have been killed if he left them behind, so he needed some place of asylum for them. Hence Ylum, and later Headworld.) He tries to be a good father, but Ursula XX Imada, the evil mother of his two beautiful and good daughters Scarlet and Sheena, stands in his way. And so on. Maybe he'll be a hero one day, when his efforts bear more fruit, or maybe he already is a hero and I'm being too tough on him.

 

Is he a good character? He's a fantastic character. He's one of my favourite characters. I've got stacks of comics here that say so.

 

But would Horatio Hellpop be entitled to treat Toby Maguire's movie Spiderman, or Frozone, or Mister or Mrs. Incredible as only fellow superheroes, on the same moral level he is? No.

 

 

I haven't seen nexus for years. It was certainly interesting, but I didn't read enough to get a good feel for it. My favorite moment was when the bullies tried pushing around the kids with the band. Their Drummer took them apart, figuratively. The 4 arms were potent, the speed was very high, and strength was probably higher than a human of his mass. The adults, iirc were Bricks.

 

thanks for the reminder.

[csyphrett]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Glad to meet you, csyphrett!

 

You like the Badger, you followed Grimjack? Say yes, I want to meet a fellow First fan!

 

Of course Grimjack wasn't a hero. He was likely the best villain in his own comic. But what a fantastic character to drive a story! And Badger - hard to sum up. I agree he was not a superhero. But he was pretty amazing anyway.

 

I liked first, especially the early years. For a bunch of independent heroes, the writers and editor (I think Mike Gold) kept things tight and well written.

CES

[Black Omega]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Badger was a comic book that went through many changes over the years, but was pretty cool. I especially enjoyed the later period with Mike Butler, though the first 20 issues were pretty wild in a totally differetn way.

 

Grimjack I mostly collected the second series on. Not John Gaunt but the one with more reddish hair that came after he died. Pretty dark in both cases though. I've not been collecting the new series, though.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Glad to meet you, csyphrett!

 

You like the Badger, you followed Grimjack? Say yes, I want to meet a fellow First fan!

 

Of course Grimjack wasn't a hero. He was likely the best villain in his own comic. But what a fantastic character to drive a story! And Badger - hard to sum up. I agree he was not a superhero. But he was pretty amazing anyway.

 

I was a Jon Sable man, myself. (Whisper and Dynamo Joe were close seconds.)

 

I remember being in High School, and my dad would read the Jon Sable's after I was done with them. He liked 'em a lot.

[csyphrett]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I was a Jon Sable man, myself. (Whisper and Dynamo Joe were close seconds.)

 

I remember being in High School, and my dad would read the Jon Sable's after I was done with them. He liked 'em a lot.

 

The TV show didn't do him justice in my opinion.

CES

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Without Morals, what seperates heros from villains?

 

I do agree Superman can be crippled by his boy-scout mentality at times, but I would much rather have him protecting my home than Wolverine.

What an interesting comparison. And I would say the opposite, even if I see Superman as more heroic. The reason is, I think too many idiots would try to "sneak past" Superman or such as Superman wouldn't wait for them to get in the house (because he is a good guy, he wouldn't want them breaking our house), would stop them, the cops couldn't do much because all they did, really, was trespass (no breaking and entering yet), and everybody knows Superman really won't hurt them unless they do something amazing. But NOBODY would screw around with Wolverine.

 

Which leads me to the point that I don't see the vicious or killers as necessarily not heroes. Often I don't see them as heroes, but depending on the world they exist in and depending on the circumstances, as others have said, I don't see them as disqualified.

 

And frankly I enjoy a little bit of splatter-hero every so often, even if more often for humor. Though I don't really consider that sort of stuff actually heroic, it's just an idle point but related in an entertainment way. Oh, and then there's the cathartic role of such things, but I don't see that as at all heroic.

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

That's what heroes do: they make hard decisions in bad situations.

 

 

Perfect! Sigged! To be repped another day, out of it now for 24.

 

In my campaign, death has occurred in three, I believe, circumstances at the PCs' hands.

 

One was an accidental death in combat. Sad and while it potentially could have been avoided, it would have been still unlikely in the best case, and only at great expense. The government doesn't worry about "good faith" deaths like this by registered, cooperative mutants.

 

Another was a direct retributive slaying. I've talked about it on the boards before. To make a long (and more nuanced) story short, a dark hero's mother was brutally killed. So the character - the Troll - sought out the murderer and tore him limb from limb and ate him. It was a culmination of another problem the character had been developing, a fascination with human flesh which came out of complex circumstances. The other characters were basically aware of the murder but due to it being the character's mother and the peculiarity of the circumstances looked the other way. Quite some time later, this dark hero has turned more towards white knight (after another incident below) and is now going through the justice system, having turned himself in for this murder.

 

In between the time of slaying his mother and reforming, this hero was involved in murder by inaction. The Kingpin - who was behind his mother's death as well as many, many others of course - had just been captured red-handed a second time, this time surely to put him away (it would have in my world, the reason the Kingpin got out the first time, under a "house arrest" was due to all the political pull he could muster, and this was exhausted and impossible with this revelation). The Justice Squad, except for the Troll, was escorting Kingpin out when Wrath appeared. Wrath was a creation of the Kingpin in an experiment involving his own parent's tragic deaths. As Wrath wrapped the group in a dizzying darkness he beheaded the the Kingpin; the Troll probably could have done something (though that wasn't a foregone conclusion) and chose to sit by.

 

I am not saying all these are heroic or for others' campaigns. These are all of the deaths by heroes that have occurred in 4 years of play. And I think within context they don't make the heroes less than that, though in the Troll's case it was part of something he overcame and in so doing became a true hero (new, too, as he has changed even physically, and is Nexus, Master of Dimensions). Though the Troll's anguish and vengeance could be seen as well from a back story that allowed him to be a heroic character, particularly by the end of his story arc as his inner demons, which had allowed him to embrace the Necronomicon (he simply found all of that to be a strange science and felt that there was no moral loss in so dabbling, ignoring gradual signs to the contrary despite his vast intellect) and then battle it in what became his death and rebirth.

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Superman doesn't kill not because he is unwilling to but because of his power level he doesn't need to. At lower levels of power killing becomes much more likely. However, a hero is a hero not because he doesn't kill but because he tries not to kill. The Authority fails the heroic test not because they are killers but because killing is what they are all about.

 

I remember having a character in one x-baby campaign who was essentially physically invulnerable. At one time he and several others in the game were trying to join (Marvel Comics') Champions team. At the end of his demonstration of powers (Hercules walking away muttering to himself in disgust after failing to make my character even stagger) Angel asked him what he thought about killing. My character replied,

 

"In general, I disapprove of it. I'm not claiming I would never kill someone, or that there are not circumstances when I would think killing was appropriate. I'm human and sometimes I imagine I might decide that killing was what someone deserved and desire to do the deed myself. What I can tell you, however, is if I ever kill someone it will be because I meant to do it. My powers are not such that I could kill someone accidentally. No, if I kill someone it is because I decided to do so and so you will know exactly how to deal with what I have done."

 

The GM was very impressed with this speech and I was the first one of my teammates to be voted in as a Champion. However, a while later the Champions headquarters had a bomb planted in it. The responsible party called and told whoever answered the phone about it and told them they had five minutes to vacate the premises. Every Champion except my character fled, he couldn't. He had an eight year old, mildly retarded, epileptic sister in the room with him and he couldn't get her out on his own and no one was trying to help. The bomb destroyed the building, killed his sister and left him essentially unscathed. Angel saw him walking out of the wreckage carrying his sister's corpse and ran up to ask him if he was okay. Trey (my character) delivered a vicious shot to Angel's kidneys and then stomped Warren Worthington the III to death before anyone could intervene . . .

 

And, no, I did not consider Trey a hero after that . . .

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Superman doesn't kill not because he is unwilling to but because of his power level he doesn't need to. At lower levels of power killing becomes much more likely. However, a hero is a hero not because he doesn't kill but because he tries not to kill. The Authority fails the heroic test not because they are killers but because killing is what they are all about.

 

I remember having a character in one x-baby campaign who was essentially physically invulnerable. At one time he and several others in the game were trying to join (Marvel Comics') Champions team. At the end of his demonstration of powers (Hercules walking away muttering to himself in disgust after failing to make my character even stagger) Angel asked him what he thought about killing. My character replied,

 

"In general, I disapprove of it. I'm not claiming I would never kill someone, or that there are not circumstances when I would think killing was appropriate. I'm human and sometimes I imagine I might decide that killing was what someone deserved and desire to do the deed myself. What I can tell you, however, is if I ever kill someone it will be because I meant to do it. My powers are not such that I could kill someone accidentally. No, if I kill someone it is because I decided to do so and so you will know exactly how to deal with what I have done."

 

The GM was very impressed with this speech and I was the first one of my teammates to be voted in as a Champion. However, a while later the Champions headquarters had a bomb planted in it. The responsible party called and told whoever answered the phone about it and told them they had five minutes to vacate the premises. Every Champion except my character fled, he couldn't. He had an eight year old, mildly retarded, epileptic sister in the room with him and he couldn't get her out on his own and no one was trying to help. The bomb destroyed the building, killed his sister and left him essentially unscathed. Angel saw him walking out of the wreckage carrying his sister's corpse and ran up to ask him if he was okay. Trey (my character) delivered a vicious shot to Angel's kidneys and then stomped Warren Worthington the III to death before anyone could intervene . . .

 

And, no, I did not consider Trey a hero after that . . .

 

I have to ask, are the Champions normally asshats?

[Watchdog]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

However, a while later the Champions headquarters had a bomb planted in it. The responsible party called and told whoever answered the phone about it and told them they had five minutes to vacate the premises. Every Champion except my character fled, he couldn't. He had an eight year old, mildly retarded, epileptic sister in the room with him and he couldn't get her out on his own and no one was trying to help. The bomb destroyed the building, killed his sister and left him essentially unscathed. Angel saw him walking out of the wreckage carrying his sister's corpse and ran up to ask him if he was okay. Trey (my character) delivered a vicious shot to Angel's kidneys and then stomped Warren Worthington the III to death before anyone could intervene . . .

 

And, no, I did not consider Trey a hero after that . . .

 

Sorry, I know this is off-topic...but why couldn't a superhero get a child out of a house by himself in five minutes?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Sorry' date=' I know this is off-topic...but why couldn't a superhero get a child out of a house by himself in five minutes?[/quote']

 

Or ask for, and obtain, help from an HQ full of other heroes?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Sorry' date=' I know this is off-topic...but why couldn't a superhero get a child out of a house by himself in five minutes?[/quote']

 

Or ask for' date=' and obtain, help from an HQ full of other heroes?[/quote']

I'm guessing here....

The GM didn't like the DNPC?

Even so....

Killing another Hero for failing to help?

Uh..OK.

Projecting much?

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Sorry' date=' I know this is off-topic...but why couldn't a superhero get a child out of a house by himself in five minutes?[/quote']

 

 

Wasn't right about the time frame, it was more like five turns, long enough for Trey to have dived out a window and long enough for one of the Champions (or one of the other PCs) to have gotten her out but without any special movement powers not enough time for Trey to have rescued her himself. GM did not dislike Irma, but was little slow about appropriate actions for heroes (both ethically and tactically). Not one "hero" in the group, PC or NPC even considered the fact that Irma was living in the headquarters. Everyone was informed by the PC telepath about the bomb and everyone ran off on their own to get out before it blew. Trey would have killed (or tried to kill) anyone of them that he got a shot at. Hercules and Iron Man were not available when the story took place. I think the GM did not want us being members of the Champions.

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I'm guessing here....

The GM didn't like the DNPC?

Even so....

Killing another Hero for failing to help?

Uh..OK.

Projecting much?

 

 

Hey, this was Marvel! By the standards in that world Trey should have started manufacturing Sentinels and conquering small European nations in seeking vengeance.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Hey' date=' this was Marvel! By the standards in that world Trey should have started manufacturing Sentinels and conquering small European nations in seeking vengeance.[/quote']

Well, yeah...

But by the same token no one ever really dies either.

Why didn't Trey just get all angsty and start searching for alternate dimensions where Irma was still alive, or try and become powerful enough to storm the afterlife and rescue her soul or somesuch.....

Heck... theres more ways to recover a dead loved one in the MU than there are ways to buy a gallon of milk.

Something Spidey never seemed to figure out for some reason

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Wasn't right about the time frame' date=' it was more like five turns, long enough for Trey to have dived out a window and long enough for one of the Champions (or one of the other PCs) to have gotten her out but without any special movement powers not enough time for Trey to have rescued her himself. GM did not dislike Irma, but was little slow about appropriate actions for heroes (both ethically and tactically). Not one "hero" in the group, PC or NPC even considered the fact that Irma was living in the headquarters. Everyone was informed by the PC telepath about the bomb and everyone ran off on their own to get out before it blew. Trey would have killed (or tried to kill) anyone of them that he got a shot at. Hercules and Iron Man were not available when the story took place. I think the GM did not want us being members of the Champions.[/quote']

I don't meant to beat this to death, but just am curious, why didn't he dive out the window with the girl?

 

And just what was wrong with that version of the Champions???? I can see a couple superheroes plumb forgetting a girl in some moment of non-thinking or non-perceiving, but not several, of our group someone is always stopping to help the nearby innocents.

[csyphrett]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

And just what was wrong with that version of the Champions???? I can see a couple superheroes plumb forgetting a girl in some moment of non-thinking or non-perceiving, but not several, of our group someone is always stopping to help the nearby innocents.

 

The original Ghost Rider, if present, could have done something. One of his flame cycles is like 0 to 300 in a five seconds. More than enough time to rescue anyone.

CES

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Hey, Nexus, I have PMed and emailed you, have you seen that?

[Watchdog]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I don't meant to beat this to death, but just am curious, why didn't he dive out the window with the girl?

 

 

Yeah, still color me confused. Unless the HQ was at the top of a very tall office building, even a 2 SPD normal would have time to grab the kid and get out in 5 turns, especially with the non-combat multiplier option. But even the tall bulding wouldn't explain why the "physically invulnerable" character didn't jump out the window with her.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Yeah' date=' still color me confused. Unless the HQ was at the top of a very tall office building, even a 2 SPD normal would have time to grab the kid and get out in 5 turns, especially with the non-combat multiplier option. But even the tall bulding wouldn't explain why the "physically invulnerable" character didn't jump out the window with her.[/quote']

 

Or the classic comic book maneuver "I throw myself over the helpless normal so my invulnerable body will shield her from the blast".

 

While there seem to be a number of actions the character could have taken rather than standing stupefied, the issue seems to me to be one of bad GM'ing. With a building full of heroes, you'd think they would make a more organized exit than "every man for himself". Don't most HEROES think of others before themselves? I would expect the GM to have considered the occupants of the building in his scenario design, and provided some means for the hero to avoid DNPC death. He may have - asking for help, carrying the girl out, using one's own body to protect her. But even if he did, if it was clear the player wasn't getting it, I'd be inclined to toss out some hints. [Comic book supers get hints from the writer all the time - they never fail to exploit the one small flaw in a deathtrap!]

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I got the impression the Champions were NPCs and the GM had them all run out of the building and abandon an invalid girl.

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Or the classic comic book maneuver "I throw myself over the helpless normal so my invulnerable body will shield her from the blast".

 

While there seem to be a number of actions the character could have taken rather than standing stupefied, the issue seems to me to be one of bad GM'ing. With a building full of heroes, you'd think they would make a more organized exit than "every man for himself". Don't most HEROES think of others before themselves? I would expect the GM to have considered the occupants of the building in his scenario design, and provided some means for the hero to avoid DNPC death. He may have - asking for help, carrying the girl out, using one's own body to protect her. But even if he did, if it was clear the player wasn't getting it, I'd be inclined to toss out some hints. [Comic book supers get hints from the writer all the time - they never fail to exploit the one small flaw in a deathtrap!]

Yes, normally I would say something like, "Your character(s) would notice or remember there's a young girl in the building."

 

EDIT/PS - to add on to prior comments, we usually have heroes who are looking after the other, less movement-ready heroes, in similar or other urgent situations (Captain Dizzying: "Worm Crawler, need a lift?" Worm Crawler: "Uh...yeah, but Captain Dizzying, I don't want to use your teleport, hey, Airlift Boy, can I grab onto you?" Airlift Boy: "Sure!" Captain Dizzying: "Nobody likes to go with me...").

[Fox1]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I got the impression the Champions were NPCs and the GM had them all run out of the building and abandon an invalid girl.

 

The whole campaign sounded whacked to me.

 

An "X-baby" campaign with characters who are the equal of the Champions and able to shrug of the blows of the son of Zeus?

 

A campaign with an entire team of NPCs plus all the PCs?

 

Stock Marvel heroes with a "every man for himself" outlook?

 

An Angel with hawk like vision not noticing the broken body of a young girl?

 

Nothing here is right. No wonder it ended up like it did.

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I don't meant to beat this to death, but just am curious, why didn't he dive out the window with the girl?

 

And just what was wrong with that version of the Champions???? I can see a couple superheroes plumb forgetting a girl in some moment of non-thinking or non-perceiving, but not several, of our group someone is always stopping to help the nearby innocents.

 

Trey did not dive out the ninth floor window clutching his sister because it had already been established (in a previous campaign with a different character) that physics are not suspended simply because you are in the grip of a superhero trying to protect you from harm;Trey would have been fine, Irma would have been gazpacho.

 

While I would have had Trey try to kill any of the other character who approached, I felt less bad about it being Warren than I would have anyone else. Warren offered housing for Irma at the headquarters, got his civilian employees out and he's the Angel the best aerialist this side of the Silver Surfer.

 

As for defying death, most of the time in Marvel (used to be, back in the day) characters vanished in ways to suggest they died but actually escaped. I know Dr. Doom had this thing of fighting Mephisto once a year for his mother's soul, but Doom always struck me as annoying plot contrivance rather than, say, a character. Only fairly recently have Marvel titles started sharing the premise of Heaven and Hell having their own webpages and phone directories and day passes and "Please excuse Oliver Queen from being dead," notes from friends and professional acquaintances. The only thing worse for me than discovering that Colossus was dead was hearing that he was back . . .