Zed-F Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Depends on how you define munchkined, I guess. Coming in at the top of or over campaign guidelines for most combat statistics in most of the campaigns I've ever participated in could certainly be considered questionable. But I don't dispute that she was (with the GM's suggestions accounted for) balanced for your game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koshka Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... (using Trebuchet's writeup here) Falcon: 250 point gadgeteer/MA. Yeah, right. About her only chance would be if she hands out knockout gas grenades to all her teammates and gets everyone to coordinate a surprise attack on Cap. Of course, she's a golden age character, which means if she's fighting Captain America it's really a plan they came up with to trick a Nazi villain into thinking one of them is a mind-controlled dupe. The real "fight" between them would be keeping track of how many Nazi agents each of them takes out when they charge side by side into the mastermind's base; unless Falcon's rolling hot Cap will probably win this one, but it'll be a close contest. (Falcon will host the celebration afterwards, she's got more money than Cap.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... When did I ever say it would be a walkover? I acknowledged that it would be a very tough fight with only Lariat's mobility giving her the edge. Could you please point out a single post where I said it would be a walkover? And please show me how Martial Block is going to negate 36" of Leap. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. I don't think I am alone in misconstruing your posts as dismissive of Cap, but if that wasn't the intention, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Depends on how you define munchkined' date=' I guess. Coming in at the top of or over campaign guidelines for most combat statistics in most of the campaigns I've ever participated in could certainly be considered questionable. But I don't dispute that she was (with the GM's suggestions accounted for) balanced for your game.[/quote'] I think a fast agile brick with a EC is the only character archetype which can be at the top of most campaign guidelines in this manner, if built straight. Obviously you can create a more powerful character of a different type through use of OIF, IIF, OIHID, Not in X, or some other broad limitation on most of a character's points. But even then, it's still not that easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Uhm... if Cap somehow automatically loses to everyone with superior maneuverability, then there is something weird going on here. Because Cap doesn't. A writeup that does is thus inaccurate. And Lariat winning based on superior leaping provides little evidence for the mismatch between MA and STR. If anything, it shows that _leaping_ is undercosted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I think a fast agile brick with a EC is the only character archetype which can be at the top of most campaign guidelines in this manner, if built straight. Obviously you can create a more powerful character of a different type through use of OIF, IIF, OIHID, Not in X, or some other broad limitation on most of a character's points. But even then, it's still not that easy. Lariat is rather light on skills and other useful abilities. I don't think _any_ character can really hit all the "sweet spots" without essentially being nothing but a combat monster or having an achilles-entire-leg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moody Loner Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Uhm... if Cap somehow automatically loses to everyone with superior maneuverability' date=' then there is something weird going on here. Because Cap doesn't. A writeup that does is thus inaccurate.[/quote'] I point out, (although to be fair, I didn't mention details of the writeup), that Moody Loner has 10" of Flight, +1 Variable Advantage (any advantage up to 1/2). That still doesn't buy him a win. Details of the writeup are irrelevant. The 450-point deficit does tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Lariat is rather light on skills and other useful abilities. I don't think _any_ character can really hit all the "sweet spots" without essentially being nothing but a combat monster or having an achilles-entire-leg. 31 pts of noncombat skills and abilities is 'rather light'? What would you consider 'normal' for a 350 pt character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... 31 pts of noncombat skills and abilities is 'rather light'? What would you consider 'normal' for a 350 pt character? Good question. I'll just check my writeups... Okay. My most recent character is a multiformer, which is a little hard to judge. Still, the base form comes in at 350 with 60 something points in skills. The multiform is iirc 310 with about 33 points in noncombat abilities, and it's expressly a hulk-like stupid form. Okay, looking back a little furthur... Flip had 61 pts in skills[excluding martial arts]/ambidexterity/double jointed. Wraith was 58 in skills/perks. [not counting COM, incidently] [dammit, where did I save the other writeups TO?] Heck, my 200 and 250 point characters have more "fluff" than Lariat does. And Lariat doesn't have any powers that are non-combat oriented, which a Mentalist or Mage would have as a matter of course, and even the standard blaster has their flight or whatever. Also, I note she has limited exotic defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Good question. I'll just check my writeups... Okay. My most recent character is a multiformer, which is a little hard to judge. Still, the base form comes in at 350 with 60 something points in skills. The multiform is iirc 310 with about 33 points in noncombat abilities, and it's expressly a hulk-like stupid form. Okay, looking back a little furthur... Flip had 61 pts in skills[excluding martial arts]/ambidexterity/double jointed. Wraith was 58 in skills/perks. [not counting COM, incidently] [dammit, where did I save the other writeups TO?] Heck, my 200 and 250 point characters have more "fluff" than Lariat does. And Lariat doesn't have any powers that are non-combat oriented, which a Mentalist or Mage would have as a matter of course, and even the standard blaster has their flight or whatever. Also, I note she has limited exotic defenses. Please by all means post any of them. Considering that the previous characters you've posted had far less than 20% or so of their points in noncombat stuff as you're implying is the norm. I'd say that Stretching, Leap, Spatial Awareness, and Str all have some obvious noncombat utility. It's mindboggling that you consider flight to have noncombat utility but not leap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Good question. I'll just check my writeups... Okay. My most recent character is a multiformer, which is a little hard to judge. Still, the base form comes in at 350 with 60 something points in skills. The multiform is iirc 310 with about 33 points in noncombat abilities, and it's expressly a hulk-like stupid form. Okay, looking back a little furthur... Flip had 61 pts in skills[excluding martial arts]/ambidexterity/double jointed. Wraith was 58 in skills/perks. [not counting COM, incidently] [dammit, where did I save the other writeups TO?] Heck, my 200 and 250 point characters have more "fluff" than Lariat does. And Lariat doesn't have any powers that are non-combat oriented, which a Mentalist or Mage would have as a matter of course, and even the standard blaster has their flight or whatever. Also, I note she has limited exotic defenses. I just did a search of characters you've actually posted on these boards in the past. Android, 81 noncombat skills plus comeliness out of 731 pts. 11% Qu, 41 out of 351. 12% Poltergeist, 20 out of 352. 6% Frequency, 24 out of 350. 7% Mighty Man, 39 out of 350. 11% Major Victory, 39 out of 350. 11% Trinity, 24 out of 350. 7% This is giving these characters the benefit of the doubt since you only listed those points as 'skills'. Since these 'skills' could easily be CSLs or stuff like Acrobatics or Breakfall, the actual percentage is probably going to be lower. Lariat, 31 out of 350. 9% Fits right in with the average character that YOU'VE posted in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I just did a search of characters you've actually posted on these boards in the past. Android, 81 noncombat skills plus comeliness out of 731 pts. 11% Qu, 41 out of 351. 12% Poltergeist, 20 out of 352. 6% Frequency, 24 out of 350. 7% Mighty Man, 39 out of 350. 11% Major Victory, 39 out of 350. 11% Trinity, 24 out of 350. 7% This is giving these characters the benefit of the doubt since you only listed those points as 'skills'. Since these 'skills' could easily be CSLs or stuff like Acrobatics or Breakfall, the actual percentage is probably going to be lower. Lariat, 31 out of 350. 9% Fits right in with the average character that YOU'VE posted in the past. 1) Android's the only of that list used as an actual PC. And he's sunk a heck of a lot of points into his senses and suchlike. In terms of actual combat powers, he's even lighter. 2) The others were first drafts. I usually do skills last, and then suck points out of other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Please by all means post any of them. Considering that the previous characters you've posted had far less than 20% or so of their points in noncombat stuff as you're implying is the norm. I'd say that Stretching, Leap, Spatial Awareness, and Str all have some obvious noncombat utility. It's mindboggling that you consider flight to have noncombat utility but not leap. The Flight comment should have been expanded into a comment about non-com flight speeds. STR with the only increased movement power have a degree of unreliability is considerably less useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... 1) Android's the only of that list used as an actual PC. And he's sunk a heck of a lot of points into his senses and suchlike. In terms of actual combat powers, he's even lighter. 2) The others were first drafts. I usually do skills last, and then suck points out of other things. 1) Enhanced senses count. They give you more options if Flashed, Imaged, or Darkened. I counted Lariat's enhanced sense. 2) Nevertheless, those are examples that you put up. Your previous track record so to speak. And your track record says that you consider 6-12% of a character's points to be the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... The Flight comment should have been expanded into a comment about non-com flight speeds. STR with the only increased movement power have a degree of unreliability is considerably less useful. Dead wrong. Many is the time that the ability to lift 100 tons has made a significant noncombat impact. And the ability to leap 72" at a pop with a 6 Spd allows Lariat to move extremely fast if she wants to, while carrying the entire team if necessary, or perhaps a busload of passengers about to drive off a cliff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-- Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I don't think Lariat is an abusive character. You haven't seen abusive. That said, Lariat will still lose to Cap. The Cap writeup has like an 18- with Analyze Combat. The margin of success on that roll will add to Cap's Find Weakness roll. Game over for Lariat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I don't think Lariat is an abusive character. You haven't seen abusive. That said' date=' Lariat will still lose to Cap. The Cap writeup has like an 18- with Analyze Combat. The margin of success on that roll will add to Cap's Find Weakness roll. Game over for Lariat.[/quote'] No one said it was abusive, all anyone said is that it designed to high game mechanic efficiency instead of being designed to a solid character concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I don't think Lariat is an abusive character. You haven't seen abusive. That said' date=' Lariat will still lose to Cap. The Cap writeup has like an 18- with Analyze Combat. The margin of success on that roll will add to Cap's Find Weakness roll. Game over for Lariat.[/quote'] I wouldn't agree with that interpretation for Analyze Combat. That would essentially give a 2 for 1 skill the same value as a 5 for 1 power. No GM I know would go for something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-- Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... No one said it was abusive' date=' all anyone said is that it designed to high game mechanic efficiency instead of being designed to a solid character concept.[/quote'] The two are not mutually exclusive. A character concept does not suddenly become better just because it's inefficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-- Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I wouldn't agree with that interpretation for Analyze Combat. That would essentially give a 2 for 1 skill the same value as a 5 for 1 power. No GM I know would go for something like that. Doesn't matter. It's in the book, under the Analyze skills. It's evil, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Doesn't matter. It's in the book' date=' under the Analyze skills. It's evil, I know.[/quote'] Isn't that a GM option thing? Why would anyone purchase more than base FW when they could simply buy a high Analyze skill? I would throw this under the same category of Rapid Firing NNDs or Extra Dimensional Travel Usable as an Attack. Technically legal, but no sane GM would allow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-- Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... Isn't that a GM option thing? Why would anyone purchase more than base FW when they could simply buy a high Analyze skill? I would throw this under the same category of Rapid Firing NNDs or Extra Dimensional Travel Usable as an Attack. Technically legal, but no sane GM would allow it. I don't think it's a GM option thing. I agree, it's insane. But insanity reigns in 5th edition. It's like making a multiple power attack with all of your martial art moves. It's a "WTF?" kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... I don't think it's a GM option thing. I agree' date=' it's insane. But insanity reigns in 5th edition. It's like making a multiple power attack with all of your martial art moves. It's a "WTF?" kind of thing.[/quote'] From the FAQ: Q: The Analyze Style Skill in UMA takes one Turn of observation to use — is this a general requirement for Analyze? A: It’s a good rule of thumb, but it’s not necessarily required for all iterations of Analyze. It depends on what’s being analyzed and similar factors; the GM should use his judgment, of course, defaulting to a Turn of observation unless he has some reason to prefer another approach. This one recommends 1 full Turn to use the skill. That should curb the abuse immediately. Q: What restrictions, if any, exist regarding the use of the Analyze Skill as a Complementary Roll for Find Weakness? A: First, the GM might not always allow a Complementary Skill Roll; I know I certainly wouldn’t if I thought a player was abusing the privilege or attempting to exploit the rules for his own benefit at the expense of the game. I suspect most GMs would feel the same. Even without that, many GMs establish limits on Skill Rolls that would prevent a character from buying Analyze “really high.†Second, a Complementary Roll won’t necessarily succeed; it might add nothing. A purchased bonus to FW always improves its roll. Third, an Analyze roll is only going to Complement a Find Weakness roll if it applies to whatever the character’s trying to Find Weakness against. Analyze Style or Analyze Fighting Technique, probably the two most common forms of Analyze, wouldn’t ever add to FW; they involve analyzing something intangible. Analyze Vehicle wouldn’t help a character make FW rolls against an enemy’s powered armor, or a building wall. And so on. This FAQ seems to agree that it's a GM option thing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-- Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... This FAQ seems to agree that it's a GM option thing anyway. Glad to see they've backtracked, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Re: Could your Champions character beat... The two are not mutually exclusive. A character concept does not suddenly become better just because it's inefficient. When I look at that character, the last thing I see is a character concept. The numbers are just too efficient to be anything but power-gamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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