Could your Champions character beat...

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Why? He doesn't have an OAF focus, he has an OIF focus; he can still use the shield, mechanically speaking. He can dish out enough damage in HTH that Lariat wouldn't be able to guarantee not being stunned. He has nearly double her defense and damage reduction on top of that. I very much doubt that if Lariat closes to melee, she'll last long enough to be able to roll a 6.

 

Sure, assuming she is or can get outside, Lariat can leap away if she gets hurt. But if Cap chooses to stay indoors where the fight's in his favour, then we're back to stalemate again.

 

By special effect, Cap can't use the shield if his arms are grabbed. That should be pretty obvious. And he doesn't have enough escape to escape from a 70 Str Grab. The DR and Armor obviously only affect frontal attacks by special effect.

 

Unless they're fighting in an adamantium cage, there's pretty much no structure that would keep Lariat penned up.

 

At worst, Lariat draws. And she only needs to roll low once to win.

 

Actually, the Shield has an explicit limitation that it only works in a 180 degree arc. It certainly wouldn't work against being squeezed.

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

At worst' date=' Lariat draws. And she only needs to roll low once to win.[/quote']

 

Lariat is the type of character that likely would never be allowed in the same campaign with Captain America.

 

Super Strength, vast movement, martial arts, high defenses, plus exotics like extra limbs...

 

Sounds like a JLA character.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Lariat is the type of character that likely would never be allowed in the same campaign with Captain America.

 

Super Strength, vast movement, martial arts, high defenses, plus exotics like extra limbs...

 

Sounds like a JLA character.

 

 

Sounds like a typical Brick other than the extra limbs.

 

Cut Lariat some slack. She's a 350 going against a 750.

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Sounds like a typical Brick other than the extra limbs.

 

Cut Lariat some slack. She's a 350 going against a 750.

 

Typical bricks don't have DEX higher than Captain America and SPDs to match.

 

And she's 350 points of nearly pure effective combat abilities.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Typical bricks don't have DEX higher than Captain America and SPDs to match.

 

And she's 350 points of nearly pure effective combat abilities.

 

 

Plenty of high dex bricks in comics such as Timber Wolf, Spiderman, Superman, any Eternal, Orion, Barda, Wonder Woman, etc.

 

And Lariat has 31 points of noncombat 'fluff', which I would consider reasonable.

[Zed-F]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

At worst' date=' Lariat draws. And she only needs to roll low once to win.[/quote']

 

No, at worst, Lariat closes to melee, Cap unloads 16d6 into her, gets a slightly above average roll, stuns her, and finishes her next phase. I expect Cap will roll enough stun on 16d6 before Lariat rolls a 6 to grab.

 

Failing that, he can still wear her down if he has the opportunity to use the environment to his advantage. How much collateral damage is Lariat willing to cause to escape when she does start soaking up the stun damage? Just because she might be *capable* of taking the building down, doesn't mean she would be *willing* to. For instance, there might be civilians around...

 

If the battleground controls the engagement range and thus decides the winner, neither would normally willing to give up choice of battleground. My analysis says draw, assuming Cap doesn't play dumb.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

No, at worst, Lariat closes to melee, Cap unloads 16d6 into her, gets a slightly above average roll, stuns her, and finishes her next phase. I expect Cap will roll enough stun on 16d6 before Lariat rolls a 6 to grab.

 

Failing that, he can still wear her down if he has the opportunity to use the environment to his advantage. How much collateral damage is Lariat willing to cause to escape when she does start soaking up the stun damage? Just because she might be *capable* of taking the building down, doesn't mean she would be *willing* to. For instance, there might be civilians around...

 

If the battleground controls the engagement range and thus decides the winner, neither would normally willing to give up choice of battleground. My analysis says draw, assuming Cap doesn't play dumb.

 

 

How many levels is Cap going to throw into OCV if he uses Offensive Strike? He only has a 8 base OCV with that attack. The more levels he uses in offense, the easier it is for Lariat to grab him... And his chance of rolling 66+ on 16d6 is still extremely small.

 

Lariat has complete control of the initiative since her half move is greater than Cap's full move. She never has to fight if she doesn't want to, and she can always force Cap to fight anytime she wants to. Cap can't keep innocent bystanders as human shields forever...

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Plenty of high dex bricks in comics such as Timber Wolf' date=' Spiderman, Superman, any Eternal, Orion, Barda, Wonder Woman, etc.[/quote']

 

Give me a break.

 

Spiderman is a MA without MA skill doing MA damage with a MA's DEX and SPD and defenses.

 

There rest are DC or non-mainstream Marvel, and I already said it was a JLA character- all power.

 

And Lariat has 31 points of noncombat 'fluff', which I would consider reasonable.

 

I'm sure it is in some places. But don't whine about a 750 point character that has more 'fuff' (strange term for character concept that) than your entire point base.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Give me a break.

 

Spiderman is a MA without MA skill doing MA damage with a MA's DEX and SPD and defenses.

 

There rest are DC or non-mainstream Marvel, and I already said it was a JLA character- all power.

 

So you get to define what's an acceptable comic character and what's not. Gotcha.

 

 

I'm sure it is in some places. But don't whine about a 750 point character that has more 'fuff' (strange term for character concept that) than your entire point base.

 

 

Puhleeze. 350+ in fluff for Cap? I don't think so.

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

So you get to define what's an acceptable comic character and what's not. Gotcha..

 

I'm sure it's fine in the game you play.

 

I wouldn't let it anywere near mine, especially with a player who seems to be all about proving their 350 point would whip a 750 point Cap write-up.

 

Real concept problem with a real 'tude problem.

 

Just my impression.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

I'm sure it's fine in the game you play.

 

I wouldn't let it anywere near mine, especially with a player who seems to be all about proving their 350 point would whip a 750 point Cap write-up.

 

Real concept problem with a real 'tude problem.

 

Just my impression.

 

 

That's all you have to say. That in your campaign, you find fast bricks to be unbalancing and you therefore neuter them.

 

That may work fine in your campaign, but please don't try and pretend that your campaign has any reach or scope outside of your campaign.

[Zed-F]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

How many levels is Cap going to throw into OCV if he uses Offensive Strike? He only has a 8 base OCV with that attack. The more levels he uses in offense' date=' the easier it is for Lariat to grab him... And his chance of rolling 66+ on 16d6 is still extremely small.[/quote']

Since the average on 16d6 is 56, I wouldn't call it extremely small. Like I said, a slightly above average roll.

 

In fact he doesn't even need to use offensive strike. He has find weakness, which you've consistently ignored. Cap has more than enough offense to paste Lariat if she closes. In fact, he might well have enough to paste her at range, given his ranged martial arts levels and find weakness, but so far I've been willing to give Lariat the benefit of the doubt on that one.

 

Lariat has complete control of the initiative since her half move is greater than Cap's full move. She never has to fight if she doesn't want to, and she can always force Cap to fight anytime she wants to. Cap can't keep innocent bystanders as human shields forever...

As I keep telling you, that's only true if she can control where the battle is taking place. Inside a building, her leaping is useless unless she is willing to tear down parts of the building every time she leaps. Cap doesn't need to use civilians as human shields; just the fact that there are civilians in the building at all should be enough to keep a lid on how much Lariat can take advantage of her mobility with leap. Assuming, of course, that she's meant to be a heroine.

[Mentor]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

How many levels is Cap going to throw into OCV if he uses Offensive Strike? He only has a 8 base OCV with that attack. The more levels he uses in offense, the easier it is for Lariat to grab him... And his chance of rolling 66+ on 16d6 is still extremely small.

 

Lariat has complete control of the initiative since her half move is greater than Cap's full move. She never has to fight if she doesn't want to, and she can always force Cap to fight anytime she wants to. Cap can't keep innocent bystanders as human shields forever...

Lariat is a formidable character, but your description of events keep making Cap or his his player sound inept. The walkover scenarios you keep posting are correct in what options Lariat has, but only one Martial block is needed to over come the advantages you mention, especially with the CSLs involved. Cap as designed by rebuchet does have some options too. I think the fight would be closer thank you seem to, Gary.

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Lariat is a formidable character' date=' but your description of events keep making Cap or his his player sound inept. The walkover scenarios you keep posting are correct in what options Lariat has, but only one Martial block is needed to over come the advantages you mention, especially with the CSLs involved. Cap as designed by rebuchet does have some options too. I think the fight would be closer thank you seem to, Gary.[/quote']

 

It's a ego thing with him, best thing to do is give him a "Sure, whatever. You rock" response and move on to other people with more interesting characters and ideas.

[Drewbicus]

I have ONE that might beat CAP

 

Bombardier. Flying power armored type.

 

If Bombardier shoots first and hits before CAP realizes he's being attacked, he'll win. If cap knows he's being attacked, harder, but would still either win or be a draw. Character is about 350 points.

 

The relevant powers: Flight speed high enough to almost always make sure he's attacking from a direction cap is not able to protect with the 180 degree arc for the shield.

 

Effective OCV of 15 with his ranged attacks.

 

-20 vs range mods.

 

FF that is part of a multipwer (1 slot is ED, the other PD, so he has to allocate points between them, and against CAP, everything goes into PD to avoid shield damage)

 

Rapid Attack skill.

 

The attack that would do CAP in (unless he has immunity to toxins someplace I missed) is a 4d6 NND (immunity to toxins) 1-turn continuous charge hyper-velocity narco-dart attack.

 

Since Bombardier has speed 5, and could shoot twice in one phase with a good chance of hitting CAP when he's not aware (or from a direction the shield ISN'T due to his high flight speed) if he hits with both darts Cap would suck 5 consecutive 4d6 attacks from each dart for a total of 40d6 worth of stun over one turn just from those first two darts hitting him.

 

That's, what? 140 stun on average rolls? Unless Cap does nothing but take recoveries for the next 5 phases (which would make Bombardier's life a lot easier) even CAP would have a hard time with that.

 

Since Bombardier can do that from ranges so extreme Cap probably couldn't even see him effectively he'd have a very tough time fighting back. If Bombardier runs out of Narco Darts or feels he can't do enough damage to win, he switches flight to mega scale and bugs out.

 

If Cap knows it's coming, though, whole other ball game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Bumping to get back to a discussion on Cap...

 

Based on my earlier post I was thinking about what would happen if Cap (with shield) is facing someone with an Indirect attack? Not much since the shield surely has, at least, 2 levels of Hardened. The question then becomes is the ability to use the shield effectively an inherint ability (like the base defenses given by a Green Lantern's ring) or is it partly based on Cap's ability to wield the shield (and lesser replacement sheild's for that matter)?

 

So far we have a couple of different takes on Cap's Shield.

 

I am curious how others think it should be applied vs. a character with some of the 'Brick Tricks' from Ultimate Brick.

 

Examples:

The Armsweep on pg 50 (AOE 1 Hex on STR, can be Blocked but not Dodged).

The Uppercut Supreme on pg 67 (Indirect on STR, can be Dodged but not Blocked*). *Unless the Block maneuver is purchased with the Hardened advantage.

 

Depending on the ruling I could see my namesake character (350 points, link in my sig below) having a small chance in a first time encounter vs. Cap by using his version of the Uppercut from UB to bypass Cap's shield. Other tricks are possible like using 65 STR to toss some objects of opportunity at Cap. Major luck would be required though.

 

HM

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Since the average on 16d6 is 56, I wouldn't call it extremely small. Like I said, a slightly above average roll.

 

In fact he doesn't even need to use offensive strike. He has find weakness, which you've consistently ignored. Cap has more than enough offense to paste Lariat if she closes. In fact, he might well have enough to paste her at range, given his ranged martial arts levels and find weakness, but so far I've been willing to give Lariat the benefit of the doubt on that one.

 

 

Since I have a spreadsheet to calculate exact probabilities, the odds of rolling 66+ on 16d6 is 8.27%. The odds of rolling 6- on 3d6 is 9.26%. Fairly close.

 

I missed the find weakness, but one thing you missed is Lariat's Stretching. She can attack from any angle and direction, so Cap's -1/2 limitation that the shield affects only 180 degrees is going to make that shield worthless as a defense. Without the shield's defense, it's possible that one single hit will take Cap out.

 

Throwing the shield is very dangerous since it doesn't do a whole lot of damage even with FW, and all it takes is one successful Missile Deflection roll to grab the shield and basically end the fight. Lockout is a very dangerous limitation to take.

 

 

As I keep telling you, that's only true if she can control where the battle is taking place. Inside a building, her leaping is useless unless she is willing to tear down parts of the building every time she leaps. Cap doesn't need to use civilians as human shields; just the fact that there are civilians in the building at all should be enough to keep a lid on how much Lariat can take advantage of her mobility with leap. Assuming, of course, that she's meant to be a heroine.

 

Useless? I don't think so. She could easily just make a petite woman size hole in a building when she leaps. Nothing forces her to tear down the entire building if all she wants to do is get out. And Cap can't stay inside forever.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Lariat is a formidable character' date=' but your description of events keep making Cap or his his player sound inept. The walkover scenarios you keep posting are correct in what options Lariat has, but only one Martial block is needed to over come the advantages you mention, especially with the CSLs involved. Cap as designed by rebuchet does have some options too. I think the fight would be closer thank you seem to, Gary.[/quote']

 

 

When did I ever say it would be a walkover? I acknowledged that it would be a very tough fight with only Lariat's mobility giving her the edge.

 

Could you please point out a single post where I said it would be a walkover? And please show me how Martial Block is going to negate 36" of Leap.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

It's a ego thing with him' date=' best thing to do is give him a "Sure, whatever. You rock" response and move on to other people with more interesting characters and ideas.[/quote']

 

 

No, it was a civil discussion between myself and Zed-F before you decided to jump in and throw words like 'ego' and 'real concept problems'. It seems the only person with an attitude problem is the one making that accusation.

[Zed-F]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Since I have a spreadsheet to calculate exact probabilities' date=' the odds of rolling 66+ on 16d6 is 8.27%. The odds of rolling 6- on 3d6 is 9.26%. Fairly close. [/quote']

Fair enough.

 

I missed the find weakness, but one thing you missed is Lariat's Stretching. She can attack from any angle and direction, so Cap's -1/2 limitation that the shield affects only 180 degrees is going to make that shield worthless as a defense. Without the shield's defense, it's possible that one single hit will take Cap out.

Perhaps. It seems like whoever lands the first hit is likely to stun the opponent, which makes close range combat very dangerous for both of them. Cap is far more likely to get that first hit in, however.

 

Throwing the shield is very dangerous since it doesn't do a whole lot of damage even with FW, and all it takes is one successful Missile Deflection roll to grab the shield and basically end the fight. Lockout is a very dangerous limitation to take.

13d6 with an application or two of FW still have a good chance to stun Lariat. Nevertheless, I agree about the lockout and missle deflect, which was why I've been willing to give Lariat the ranged fight.

 

Useless? I don't think so. She could easily just make a petite woman size hole in a building when she leaps. Nothing forces her to tear down the entire building if all she wants to do is get out. And Cap can't stay inside forever.

Buildings don't work like that in the real world. A wrecking ball is smaller than a person, but they put holes bigger than a person in a building. Maybe buildings work like they do in Bugs Bunny in your campaign world, but I'd expect not in most campaign worlds. I'm not saying she'd tear down the whole building with a single leap, but she could easily put civilians at risk, and multiple leaps would definitely impair the building's structural integrity. Then there's the matter of wanton destruction of property. As a CEO, perhaps she can afford to pay for repairs, but what about her reputation? Maybe these issues are glossed over in your campaign world, but I take them seriously.

 

Hence, I still say ranged fights go to Lariat and close combat to Cap -- overall a draw.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Buildings don't work like that in the real world. A wrecking ball is smaller than a person, but they put holes bigger than a person in a building. Maybe buildings work like they do in Bugs Bunny in your campaign world, but I'd expect not in most campaign worlds. I'm not saying she'd tear down the whole building with a single leap, but she could easily put civilians at risk, and multiple leaps would definitely impair the building's structural integrity. Then there's the matter of wanton destruction of property. As a CEO, perhaps she can afford to pay for repairs, but what about her reputation? Maybe these issues are glossed over in your campaign world, but I take them seriously.

 

Hence, I still say ranged fights go to Lariat and close combat to Cap -- overall a draw.

 

 

A wrecking ball usually requires many hits to actually create a hole in a building. Lariat can zip through in one hit. Also, she can leap through windows which won't cause any real threat to civilians. And she can appeal to Cap's honor and ask him to take the fight to an area with no civilians.

 

We can argue back and forth forever, but one thing that this exercise does point out is that Str and Dex are too cheap in Champions. The fact that a 350 pt character built straight with minimal limitations, is competitive at all with a reasonably well built and effective 750 pt martial artist who's specialty is HTH combat is extremely telling.

 

Lariat just happens to hit virtually every 'sweet spot' in Champions with lavish investment in Str, Dex, Con, and a suite of very useful powers in a EC. Some might consider this outcome a flaw in a game system that purports that a point spent on one thing should have roughly equal utility with a point spent somewhere else.

[Zed-F]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

One could certainly make that argument. One could also argue that ECs are too good, that VPPs are too good, that MPs are too good, that any given stop sign power is too good, etc.

 

One can house rule away to one's heart's content to work around these problems. I prefer to use the game rules as is and rely on GM discretion for balancing purposes. The reason is I want the rules and my characters to be as cross-campaign compatible as possible. I generally play in an online play-by-post format where most people play in multiple games. It helps greatly to have a standard set of expectations when going from game to game; trying to remember which house rule applies in which game would be a nightmare. Moreover, changing STR or other characteristics can be a slippery slope; you might well be tempted to rebalance the costs of the various frameworks as well, since bricks suddenly become so much less effective. You will likely wind up with a whole suite of house rules, not just one or two.

 

If 6e changes the way STR works, I'll use the new rules. Otherwise, whatever balance issues STR might have, changing it is not worth the cost.

[David Blue]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

We can argue back and forth forever' date=' but one thing that this exercise does point out is that Str and Dex are too cheap in Champions.[/quote']I disagree, and I have a concrete idea what it looks like if skill levels are the way to go. You build an incredibly vicious attack and buy specific skill levels with it. Dexterity, Strength, Multipowers and Elemental Controls subsidize variety, which is a Good Thing.

 

The fact that a 350 pt character built straight with minimal limitations' date=' is competitive at all with a reasonably well built and effective 750 pt martial artist who's specialty is HTH combat is extremely telling.[/quote']With respect, I disagree. I'm shocked at how many characters built on relatively low points are capable of giving Captain America a hard time. The problem is not that Lariat is too good. The problem is that Captain America, for what he costs, is far too weak. For a good comic book superhero simulation, Captain America should be a second-to none way to spend your points. He's nothing like that.

 

Lariat just happens to hit virtually every 'sweet spot' in Champions with lavish investment in Str' date=' Dex, Con, and a suite of very useful powers in a EC.[/quote']You're right to be happy with your fine character, but again I don't agree. That's not abusive. I've seen abusive. (grinning) I don't smell real cheese till the foci are built and the endurance batteries are set up. Lariat is hitting nothing like all the sweet spots that are available. Why she doesn't even do BODY, disregarding defenses, the innocent darling!

 

Some might consider this outcome a flaw in a game system that purports that a point spent on one thing should have roughly equal utility with a point spent somewhere else.

Hero System is a disaster in that respect. But Lariat is not the problem.

 

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: [to The Monster] Hello handsome. You're a good looking fellow, do you know that? People laugh at you, people hate you, but why do they hate you? Because... they are jealous. Look at that boyish face. Look at that sweet smile. Do you wanna talk about physical strength? Do you want to talk about sheer muscle? Do you want to talk about the Olympian ideal? You are a God. And listen to me, you are not evil. You... are... good.

[the Monster starts to cry, and Dr. Frederick Frankenstein hugs him]

- Young Frankenstein (1974)

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Hero System is a disaster in that respect. But Lariat is not the problem.

 

HERO system is a disaster in that respect true.

 

However a character built to take every advantage of that disaster isn't something not to be troubled about.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

I disagree' date=' and I have a concrete idea what it looks like if skill levels are the way to go. You build an incredibly vicious attack and buy specific skill levels with it. Dexterity, Strength, Multipowers and Elemental Controls subsidize variety, which is a Good Thing.[/quote']

 

I disagree. Dex, Str, MPs, and ECs subsidize characters that depend on those attributes and frameworks. There are many character types who can't take advantage of those bargains and are penalized relative to the ones who can. You get less variety by channeling characters into specific purchases.

 

 

With respect, I disagree. I'm shocked at how many characters built on relatively low points are capable of giving Captain America a hard time. The problem is not that Lariat is too good. The problem is that Captain America, for what he costs, is far too weak. For a good comic book superhero simulation, Captain America should be a second-to none way to spend your points. He's nothing like that.

 

I thought Treb did a good job on his conversion. If I were to quibble, I might cut 2-3d6 damage from his attacks and add 4-6d6 Luck. Otherwise his Cap can do most of what the comic book Cap can do outside of writer fiat abilities.

 

You're right to be happy with your fine character, but again I don't agree. That's not abusive. I've seen abusive. (grinning) I don't smell real cheese till the foci are built and the endurance batteries are set up. Lariat is hitting nothing like all the sweet spots that are available. Why she doesn't even do BODY, disregarding defenses, the innocent darling!

 

Hero System is a disaster in that respect. But Lariat is not the problem.

 

I'm not saying that Lariat is abusive. In fact I use her frequently on these boards because there is almost nothing munchkined or twinked about her. About the only possible quibble about her construction is the spacial awareness costs end in the EC and that's pretty trivial.

 

Because Lariat is built straight, she provides a useful look at how 'going with the flow' with Hero System benefits you in character creation.

 

Incidentally, the campaign where I played her had a Powered Armor type, a OIHID type, a Shrinker, and a Mentallist. Lariat had to be pretty tough to be competitive. And even so, the GM asked me to lower her Dex/Spd to 23/5 and cut 2d6 from her damage. She retired at over 500 pts and trust me, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if it were the 500 pt version of Lariat.