Could your Champions character beat...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Lots of things are book legal but questionable. Would most GMs allow a multiform as a cheap excuse for a skills dump? Questionable.

 

He Hulks out in combat. His personality changes, his cognitive processes slow down, and he forgets a lot of what he knows.

 

How else do you build that? Or is a Hulk-like character unacceptable?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Incidentally' date=' Captain America, posted in the very first post in this thread, has about 60 out of 750 or 8% in noncombat stuff. I guess you would consider Cap 'light' on skills. [/quote']

 

You keep going over percentages, by the way... I really don't see percentages as being a good way of measuring it. Adding 400 points of powers to a concept doesn't (inherently) mean any more skills are justified.

 

Also... That's Not Cap! That build misses any contacts, knowledge skills, or other non-named skills he should have. So yes, he is light on skills - because it's missing relevant ones.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

1) Cap has (most likely) extra REC and reduced need to sleep [iirc; not the biggest fan]. He also probably should have a degree of power defense, since he IS just tough (physically and mentally) and does better against things than he "should".

 

I'm not saying any of these is mandatory, by the way, but a character should have _something_ like that.

 

Wonder Woman is old school DC and thus inherently illogical, but I really doubt she'd be completely wide open like that [it would help if I thought the character concept was worth reading about].

 

2) A starting character? With the fine control for missile deflection? And for typing? And the raw strength to throw around tanks?

Hmm.

 

3) Actually it seems pretty standard (for competent normals) to me. And she's not just a normal, she;s a _superhero_ and a CEO.

 

Incidently, 10 points of wealth, apparently she recently got her powers, and she has NO points in things she does for fun?

 

1) I would like to point out that Lariat has the exact same 15 Rec as Captain America. And I already explained why I didn't put power defense on the character; to leave an opening for the GM.

 

2) Yes. Medusa is almost the same character type except that she's not as strong as Lariat. And from her first appearance, she could use her hair with fine precision. Those force tendrils are a part of Lariat which she can control just as well has her normal hands and fingers.

 

3) Running a company and being a full member of a super team is fun for her. But I guess you wouldn't understand that.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

He Hulks out in combat. His personality changes, his cognitive processes slow down, and he forgets a lot of what he knows.

 

How else do you build that? Or is a Hulk-like character unacceptable?

 

 

Apparantly in your eyes, anyone with less than 20% of their points in skills is unacceptable.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

You keep going over percentages, by the way... I really don't see percentages as being a good way of measuring it. Adding 400 points of powers to a concept doesn't (inherently) mean any more skills are justified.

 

Also... That's Not Cap! That build misses any contacts, knowledge skills, or other non-named skills he should have. So yes, he is light on skills - because it's missing relevant ones.

 

 

How else would you measure it? Are you saying that a 25 pt character should have exactly the same number of points in skills as a 1000 pt character? Percentage terms are the only ones that makes sense. Otherwise you're being utterly ridiculous.

 

Contacts acquired after play starts usually don't cost points. Lariat doesn't have to pay points for membership in her superteam, or for the government liason assigned to it. It looks like you're just arbitrarily dismissing anything that you don't like at this pint.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Apologies to Force for using his characters to illustrate my point.

 

Force's 3 characters posted in this thread:

 

Force 43 out of 440 = 10%

 

Colossus 14 out of 440 = 3%

 

Black Lotus 32 out of 395 = 8%

 

All excellent characters, but by your standards are somehow lacking.

 

Er... force is a 395 point character. Which puts him 2% over Lariat.

 

Colossus has essentially no skills and is described as a combat monster...

yeah.

 

Black Lotus should have more skills. What precise skills, hard to tell, since there's no background. She's doing pretty well, though, and I think it was likely that as a 350pt character she had most of the same skills but lower stats. (which is why the % thing is silly; characters should be good at something besides fighting, but that doesn't need to keep pace with their powers. Supeman didn't become a worse character in the Silver Age... okay, bad example , but a character that wouldn't cut it as a Heroic level character when depowered is on shaky grounds.)

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

The last 4 characters posted on these boards:

 

Captain Awesome by Enforcer88 13 out of 350 = 4%

 

The Dirt by Egyptoid 34 out of 349 = 10%

 

Angelique by Nexus = 36 out of 350 = 10%

 

Tornado by Corven Ren = 22 out of 350 = 6%

 

Goodness, it looks like you don't like any characters on these boards.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

1) I would like to point out that Lariat has the exact same 15 Rec as Captain America. And I already explained why I didn't put power defense on the character; to leave an opening for the GM.

 

2) Yes. Medusa is almost the same character type except that she's not as strong as Lariat. And from her first appearance, she could use her hair with fine precision. Those force tendrils are a part of Lariat which she can control just as well has her normal hands and fingers.

 

3) Running a company and being a full member of a super team is fun for her. But I guess you wouldn't understand that.

 

1) I don't think I agree with that writeup. Cap is tireless. And should probably have slow regeneration.

 

And some forms of life support should be appropriate for her. Perhaps linked to the force field.

 

2) In that case, starting character is hardly the right term. She's had all her life to use her powers. She should be able to use them in interesting ways.

 

See... Medusa has a much more restricted power set. Out and out TK, even with a limited range... read that science fiction series with the cop with a telekinetic arm? Yeah...

 

3) Now you're just being insulting. Look. If she spends all her free time superheroing, she should have skills in THAT. Knowledge Skills. Oratory, maybe. Contacts. If, on the other hand, she just starting out as a hero, she should have skills that relate to what she did to relax before becoming a hero.

 

And if she's been tightly wound since birth, she should probably know a bit about every aspect of her company.

 

18 INT means you should soak up a lot of information (skills) in a lot of different fields.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

I bet everyone here builds characters that work for the games they play in.

Exactly!

 

Or would like to play in when the opportunity presents itself again.

 

HM

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Er... force is a 395 point character. Which puts him 2% over Lariat.

 

Colossus has essentially no skills and is described as a combat monster...

yeah.

 

Black Lotus should have more skills. What precise skills, hard to tell, since there's no background. She's doing pretty well, though, and I think it was likely that as a 350pt character she had most of the same skills but lower stats. (which is why the % thing is silly; characters should be good at something besides fighting, but that doesn't need to keep pace with their powers. Supeman didn't become a worse character in the Silver Age... okay, bad example , but a character that wouldn't cut it as a Heroic level character when depowered is on shaky grounds.)

 

 

1) Ooh, a whole 2% more.

 

2) Black Lotus is doing 'pretty well', yet he has 32 points vs 31 for Lariat? I never realized that 1 extra point makes the difference between 'light on skills' and 'doing pretty well'.

[Fox1]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

I bet everyone here builds characters that work for the games they play in.

 

Very true.

 

Which is why I referred to the character as suitable for a JLA campaign- some types of games require one to min/max the whole character to get the best out of every point.

 

It's no big deal- until you start comparing it to a character who's not built to the same standard with an eye towards some sort of bragging rights...

 

Then it just becomes sort of sad to watch.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

How else would you measure it? Are you saying that a 25 pt character should have exactly the same number of points in skills as a 1000 pt character? Percentage terms are the only ones that makes sense. Otherwise you're being utterly ridiculous.

 

Contacts acquired after play starts usually don't cost points. Lariat doesn't have to pay points for membership in her superteam, or for the government liason assigned to it. It looks like you're just arbitrarily dismissing anything that you don't like at this pint.

 

1) No, a 25pt character should not have as many points in skills as a 1000 point character. Now you're just being silly.

 

But 350 pter and a 1000pter definately have the same "minimum acceptable" range. Because a 1000 point character or a 350pter can have the same origin as each other... or the same "home life" as a 150 pt heroic character.

 

Golden Age and Modern Superman have roughly the same skill set, despite being hundreds of points different.

 

 

It is ridiculous to assert that simply making someone more powerful means they should be more well rounded. No! No! No! A thousand times No! There is just a minimum point below which a character just doesn't have much in the way of skills. The character looks like not that much thought went into them.

 

 

2) Who said anything about superheroing contacts? I'm talking about the kind of connections you need to make it big in business... and the kinds of fringe benefits that much money has (which differs from one type of wealth to another; some types [inherited unexpectedly] don't offer fringe benefits).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

The last 4 characters posted on these boards:

 

Captain Awesome by Enforcer88 13 out of 350 = 4%

 

The Dirt by Egyptoid 34 out of 349 = 10%

 

Angelique by Nexus = 36 out of 350 = 10%

 

Tornado by Corven Ren = 22 out of 350 = 6%

 

Goodness, it looks like you don't like any characters on these boards.

 

The Dirt also happens to throw some points into non-combat abilities. He's strong, tough AND he can walk through stone... or from NZ to the US.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

1) I don't think I agree with that writeup. Cap is tireless. And should probably have slow regeneration.

 

And some forms of life support should be appropriate for her. Perhaps linked to the force field.

 

2) In that case, starting character is hardly the right term. She's had all her life to use her powers. She should be able to use them in interesting ways.

 

See... Medusa has a much more restricted power set. Out and out TK, even with a limited range... read that science fiction series with the cop with a telekinetic arm? Yeah...

 

3) Now you're just being insulting. Look. If she spends all her free time superheroing, she should have skills in THAT. Knowledge Skills. Oratory, maybe. Contacts. If, on the other hand, she just starting out as a hero, she should have skills that relate to what she did to relax before becoming a hero.

 

And if she's been tightly wound since birth, she should probably know a bit about every aspect of her company.

 

18 INT means you should soak up a lot of information (skills) in a lot of different fields.

 

 

1) It appears that you don't like any writeup unless they have at least 1 point or 1% more in noncombat stuff than Lariat.

 

2) Stretching, Leap, Missile Deflection, Spatial Awareness, Force Field. Apparently these powers aren't 'interesting' in your book. But only having some heavily advantaged munchkin attack like a NND Does Body and grabbing someone's heart qualifies as 'interesting'.

 

Remember, this isn't true telekinesis. These are actual physical energy tendrils that operate like real limbs.

 

3) Since the book points out that 11- is enough to hold a job in that field and a full skill roll is equivalent to a PHD, she has the equivalent of 5 PHDs. Along with a 18 Int, that puts her quite a bit above most normals. She has in depth knowledge of textiles and the business world, and she operates as a CEO and fashion designer among the best.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

1) No, a 25pt character should not have as many points in skills as a 1000 point character. Now you're just being silly.

 

But 350 pter and a 1000pter definately have the same "minimum acceptable" range. Because a 1000 point character or a 350pter can have the same origin as each other... or the same "home life" as a 150 pt heroic character.

 

Golden Age and Modern Superman have roughly the same skill set, despite being hundreds of points different.

 

 

It is ridiculous to assert that simply making someone more powerful means they should be more well rounded. No! No! No! A thousand times No! There is just a minimum point below which a character just doesn't have much in the way of skills. The character looks like not that much thought went into them.

 

You are just full of it. Are you seriously asserting that a 350 should have the same number of noncombat skills as a 1000??? Your game must be just as interesting as dirt if all characters plow all XP into combat abilities and none into noncombat. Because that's the only way that the 350 and the 1000 would have the same number of noncombat skills.

 

I think that most games (except yours apparently) have characters that invest XP into noncombat abilities as time goes on.

 

 

2) Who said anything about superheroing contacts? I'm talking about the kind of connections you need to make it big in business... and the kinds of fringe benefits that much money has (which differs from one type of wealth to another; some types [inherited unexpectedly] don't offer fringe benefits).

 

 

There are millions of businesses that succeed in the world. And probably hundreds of thousands if not millions that would rate 10 pts of wealth. Are you seriously asserting that you have the only formula for success? Could it possibly cross your mind that someone could succeed without following your 'formula'?

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

The Dirt also happens to throw some points into non-combat abilities. He's strong' date=' tough AND he can walk through stone... or from NZ to the US.[/quote']

 

 

Yet another example of your double standard. Moving through the ground qualifies as 'noncombat' but moving through the air doesn't. Yeah right.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot that he has a whole 3 points more in noncombat than Lariat. That must make him acceptable in your eyes.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

1) Ooh, a whole 2% more.

 

2) Black Lotus is doing 'pretty well', yet he has 32 points vs 31 for Lariat? I never realized that 1 extra point makes the difference between 'light on skills' and 'doing pretty well'.

 

Those are_actual_ skills, by the way, not Wealth and COM. Not all characters should have money and good looks, but everyone should be competent at what they do.

 

Lariat has 15 points of disguising background skills, 16 points of wish fulfillment and 319 points of abilities chosen solely for maximising combat effectiveness. Her concept does NOT demand a 33 CON, the precise level of defenses, or 30 DEX. The concept of an extremely intelligent CEO, accurately done, DOES demand more than 15 points of skills.

 

Now, my guess is that in play, you filled in/were given for free a lot of the things that, by the RAW, should cost points. As such, Lariat was (in play) a well rounded and interesting character... who was getting free points on the background side of things.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Gary,

 

I am curious to know what non-combat % of points you would say my namesake character has.

 

link:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=525452&postcount=41

HM

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Gary,

 

I am curious to know what non-combat % of points you would say my namesake character has.

 

link:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=525452&postcount=41

HM

 

 

5 Cramming 8-

3 Scholar

1 1) KS: Computer Databases 11-

1 2) KS: Computer Interfaces 11-

1 SS: Quantum Physics: Higgs Boson 8-

 

3 Absolute Range Sense

3 Absolute Time Sense

3 Bump Of Direction

5 Eidetic Memory [Notes: 5E: Retrocognitive Clairsentience Retrocognition Only (-1) Only For Memorized/Perceived Information (-2) or 5ER: +5 to INT Rolls, Only To Recall Memorized/Perceived Information (-2)]

3 Lightning Calculator

4 Speed Reading (x10) [Notes: ~15 pages/minute (~5 pages/second with Hyper-Vision I, ~25 pages/second with Hyper-Quickness I)]

 

And add 1 pt for comeliness.

 

Stealth and combat luck have obvious combat applications.

 

That's 33 pts out of 350 or 9%. Obviously Whamme^2 hates your character.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

You are just full of it. Are you seriously asserting that a 350 should have the same number of noncombat skills as a 1000??? Your game must be just as interesting as dirt if all characters plow all XP into combat abilities and none into noncombat. Because that's the only way that the 350 and the 1000 would have the same number of noncombat skills.

 

I think that most games (except yours apparently) have characters that invest XP into noncombat abilities as time goes on.

 

(sigh)

If this is upsetting you, please, feel free to say so.

 

My play experience is fine. But characters often don't develop their skills anywhere near proportionate to their powers.

 

Focus on their private life is usually on their relationships, not their skills. Characters might occasionally develop their basketweaving skills, but mostly they advance their relationships, have to cover up a double life, etc, etc.

 

It's easy to justify a sudden boost in powers. Radiation Accident, Secondary Mutation, he's been using them in life and death situations for weeks now...

 

Adding a skill, OTOH... that takes time, and specific training.

 

 

[qoute]

There are millions of businesses that succeed in the world. And probably hundreds of thousands if not millions that would rate 10 pts of wealth. Are you seriously asserting that you have the only formula for success? Could it possibly cross your mind that someone could succeed without following your 'formula'?

 

The "formula" of either knowing about business OR knowing someone who does, OR just being lucky OR...

 

I'm saying anyone who succeeds should have something to back it up. The precise configuration? Up to the character.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Yet another example of your double standard. Moving through the ground qualifies as 'noncombat' but moving through the air doesn't. Yeah right.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot that he has a whole 3 points more in noncombat than Lariat. That must make him acceptable in your eyes.

 

Lariat can jump really far. The Dirt can sneak up from inside the wall for surveillance. Or whatever. Tricky stuff.

 

And life support. Life support is interesting.

 

Outside combat, Lariat adds nothing to a group that any other brick (with 31 points noncom!) couldn't.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Those are_actual_ skills, by the way, not Wealth and COM. Not all characters should have money and good looks, but everyone should be competent at what they do.

 

Lariat has 15 points of disguising background skills, 16 points of wish fulfillment and 319 points of abilities chosen solely for maximising combat effectiveness. Her concept does NOT demand a 33 CON, the precise level of defenses, or 30 DEX. The concept of an extremely intelligent CEO, accurately done, DOES demand more than 15 points of skills.

 

Now, my guess is that in play, you filled in/were given for free a lot of the things that, by the RAW, should cost points. As such, Lariat was (in play) a well rounded and interesting character... who was getting free points on the background side of things.

 

 

Ah yes, now you're redefining things again. Because Lariat happens to have high comeliness and wealth, you decide that they somehow 'don't count'. Would you be happier if Lariat traded those 16 points in for a 38 Dex with the same Spd?

 

I bet if Lariat had a 6 com and 5 pts of destitute, you would've complained that she was being cheesy in getting 7 'free' points.

 

You have no idea what was going on in the campaign. I played the character for 3 years, and I think I know how she operates better than you. Oh yeah, I forgot that your campaign doesn't allow for characters to spend XP on noncombat stuff.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

5 Cramming 8-

3 Scholar

1 1) KS: Computer Databases 11-

1 2) KS: Computer Interfaces 11-

1 SS: Quantum Physics: Higgs Boson 8-

 

3 Absolute Range Sense

3 Absolute Time Sense

3 Bump Of Direction

5 Eidetic Memory [Notes: 5E: Retrocognitive Clairsentience Retrocognition Only (-1) Only For Memorized/Perceived Information (-2) or 5ER: +5 to INT Rolls, Only To Recall Memorized/Perceived Information (-2)]

3 Lightning Calculator

4 Speed Reading (x10) [Notes: ~15 pages/minute (~5 pages/second with Hyper-Vision I, ~25 pages/second with Hyper-Quickness I)]

 

And add 1 pt for comeliness.

 

Stealth and combat luck have obvious combat applications.

 

That's 33 pts out of 350 or 9%. Obviously Whamme^2 hates your character.

 

Of course, he also has a few points in superfast flight.

 

And there's "hates" and "thinks should have more skills".

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

Lariat can jump really far. The Dirt can sneak up from inside the wall for surveillance. Or whatever. Tricky stuff.

 

And life support. Life support is interesting.

 

Outside combat, Lariat adds nothing to a group that any other brick (with 31 points noncom!) couldn't.

 

 

If Lariat had life support but no stretching, you would just say that stretching is interesting and life support is boring.

 

You really don't have any idea what a brick who can lift 100 tons with lots of extra limbs that reach 10 meters and 72" noncombat leap can do? I'm sorry that you're that clueless, but I'm sure everyone else in this thread can grasp the possibilities.

[Gary]

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

 

(sigh)

If this is upsetting you, please, feel free to say so.

 

My play experience is fine. But characters often don't develop their skills anywhere near proportionate to their powers.

 

Focus on their private life is usually on their relationships, not their skills. Characters might occasionally develop their basketweaving skills, but mostly they advance their relationships, have to cover up a double life, etc, etc.

 

It's easy to justify a sudden boost in powers. Radiation Accident, Secondary Mutation, he's been using them in life and death situations for weeks now...

 

Adding a skill, OTOH... that takes time, and specific training.

 

You're play experience is obviously not the norm if nobody adds noncombat skills with XP. In fact, it is so far out of norm that it's mindboggling that you're trying to assert it as the norm.

 

 

 

 

The "formula" of either knowing about business OR knowing someone who does, OR just being lucky OR...

 

I'm saying anyone who succeeds should have something to back it up. The precise configuration? Up to the character.

 

 

She has the equivalent of 5 PHDs and a genius intelligence. She has a great idea and through hard work, starts her own company that succeeds beyond her wildest expectations. I'm really shocked that you seem to have a problem with this, when it happens all the time in the real world.