Don't be a hater!

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I'm reading things here along the lines of "I started with (this) edition and it was so much better" and it has got me thinking, yes it is dangerous, that your first version of Hero is like a first time with anything.

 

I once worked with a gentleman who liked From Russia with Love best of all the James Bond movies. When I asked him what was it about the film he liked so much over other Bond films, he stopped and thought about it for a minute. Then, the answer he gave was that it was the first one he ever watched. That particular movie had a special place that no other Bond movie could equal.

 

The people here are talking about the version of Hero that is their favorite and it usually is the first version they had used. I'm sure a great many other people really like this version and play it over older versions, but I'm equally sure that those same people still have a soft spot for their old versions.

 

Myself, I love the 5th edition. I had never heard of Champions or Hero until the DOJ/Hero 5th edition. I would most likely look at older rules and say something like "Hey, this is missing (this or that) from the 5th."

 

These boards are a good place to bounce ideas around and get advice from more experienced players. The only time I get irritated by anything here is when I overreact to something in the NGD and end up looking like a fool in a reply. The irritation is me just being overly prideful, but I get over it.

 

I think that's what some people, I honestly don't know who, need to exercise. There's room enough here for fans of all the versions.

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

As I said' date=' I don't own the book with Mechanon in it. I believed it was in the Champions Universe book (I think that's the one he's in), but I could be wrong. However, I am 100% positive that I read the "Mechanon taking over the moon" in one of the books I decided not to purchase.[/quote']

 

The CU mentions mechanon may have (among other places) a base on the dark side of the moon. That's it.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

1. I think everyone will agree that mysterious pregnancies are far from an unusual plot device in superhero stories.

 

2. You'll have to help me here- I don't see that plot seed in either Champions or CU. Not that it also doesn't seem like a pretty typical plot device for a robot-creating bad guy. And I wrote Giant Mechanon-Head myself. Sure, it's a nod to Brainiac, though I'm not aware his head was ever planet-sized. And comics creators I refer to always get thanked in the credits.

 

3. Umm, no. Various forms of that chart have existed since well before 1998. Several of the 4th Ed books had versions, usually written out instead of in chart form. And, as you say, this one didn't even have the same numbers for ranges as yours supposedly did. Steve wrote this one himself. At his desk, I imagine. Are you seriously suggesting we're incapable of coming up with an idea this simple and commonplace on our own?

 

Anyway, I'm happy to give you the time you need to come up with actual documentation of plagiarism. Screen shots will do nicely, or if you have printed copies you can fax me. I'm afraid I can't simply accept your word as proof when you're throwing around accusations as serious as these. Otherwise, I look forward to your public and profuse apology. dw

You gotta admit it's an interesting coincidence that the mysterious pregnancy plot (which I would dispute this business about it being reasonably common) turning up on the same character, Mentalla, is a heck of a coincidence.

 

Do you guys have all the posts stored from the old forums available?

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Do you guys have all the posts stored from the old forums available?

We don't have any posts from the pre-DOJ era.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

We don't have any posts from the pre-DOJ era.

Yeah, I didn't see that as being in any way likely.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

You actually think you're the only person to ever have a chart listing 30 as maximum human? I'll bet if you do a search you'll find a dozen people who have posted such a chart. We've used 30 for all primary characteristics since 3E. I've probably posted a similar chart here myself. Methinks you are a little too full of your own self importance.

 

I wouldn't have even noticed it, either, except it had the same numbers breakdown. The top of the chart (the 25 to 30) I'd even called "Legendary". I'm sure everybody made those charts, but when one appears in the book that is virtually identical to the one I made, I got suspicious.

 

Self-important? Maybe. Did I want my name attached to it? Oh, no way. I don't really want my real name attached to an RPG product. An ex-girlfriend might find out, or something.

 

The chain of events goes like this:

-'98 or '99, I post chart to webrpg.net

-some time later, random poster says "Hey, I came across this a few years ago. It's kinda useful." I say "Hey, my chart!"

-few months later, my chart appears in Champions

 

And BTW, again, it appeared in Champions Universe, not 5th Edition.

 

Yeah, I got that right the first time I posted it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

This would be a more reasonable response if it wasn't separating one example from the others. C-- is presenting a pattern. It's very true that different people can come up with the same idea or ideas but the likelihood decreases as the number of similar ideas increases.

The number of comic book stories are fairly limited. Champsguy, err... C--, is already wrong about the Mechanon plot. There are many people who have posted a characteristic table here, and he himself mentions that the one in CU is different than his own, so all we are left with is a plot involving Mentalla being pregnant by a PC [and the plot seed in CKC has no mention of time travel]. Most of these things are fairly common storylines.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

This would be a more reasonable response if it wasn't separating one example from the others. C-- is presenting a pattern. It's very true that different people can come up with the same idea or ideas but the likelihood decreases as the number of similar ideas increases.

 

He has three examples. One seems to be somewhat similar (in that it involves a popular NPC becoming pregnant and the apparent father knowing nothing about it, though his is much more elaborate and involves time travel), one that doesn't actually exist in any book we can find, and the third is him taking credit for a idea that can demonstrably be shown to have been used for many years before he claims to have done it (frex, Western Hero, published in 1991, which I'm holding in my hand.) (And, he also accuses us of using his word-for-word in one place and changing it around in another.) This is a pattern? More importantly, this is the basis for making the most serious accusation you can make against a professional writer? Please. dw

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

You gotta admit it's an interesting coincidence that the mysterious pregnancy plot (which I would dispute this business about it being reasonably common) turning up on the same character, Mentalla, is a heck of a coincidence.

 

Do you guys have all the posts stored from the old forums available?

Mentalla is a major character. She's Menton's sister. What better character to tick off then Menton when you get his sister pregnant? As an evil GM it's the perfect choice.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The number of comic book stories are fairly limited. Champsguy' date=' err... C--, is already wrong about the Mechanon plot. There are many people who have posted a characteristic table here, and he himself mentions that the one in CU is different than his own, so all we are left with is a plot involving Mentalla being pregnant by a PC [and the plot seed in CKC has no mention of time travel']. Most of these things are fairly common storylines.

I dispute the notion that the Mentalla plot seed is that common or that likely to be independently developed twice. To me, that's the one that stands out. With that plot seed, the use of "Legendary" in the Stat Ranges becomes more credible as a subconsciously/consciously borrowed concept. I've heard C-- give more examples in the past but it's been a while. This has annoyed him but it appears that he hasn't attempted the sort of documentation that would satisfy you. If he did, I'd worry about his priorities.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Mentalla is a major character. She's Menton's sister. What better character to tick off then Menton when you get his sister pregnant? As an evil GM it's the perfect choice.

I think that's reaching.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I wouldn't have even noticed it' date=' either, except it had the same numbers breakdown. The top of the chart (the 25 to 30) I'd even called "Legendary". I'm sure everybody made those charts, but when one appears in the book that is [i']virtually identical[/i] to the one I made, I got suspicious.

 

Oh, and on our chart "Legendary" goes from 21-30. Unless your claim is specifically on using the word "Legendary" as a level between "Competent" and "Superhuman." dw

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He has three examples. One seems to be somewhat similar (in that it involves a popular NPC becoming pregnant and the apparent father knowing nothing about it' date=' though his is much more elaborate and involves time travel), one that doesn't actually exist in any book we can find, and the third is him taking credit for a idea that can demonstrably be shown to have been used for many years before he claims to have done it (frex, Western Hero, published in 1991, which I'm holding in my hand.) (And, he also accuses us of using his word-for-word in one place and changing it around in another.) This is a pattern? More importantly, this is the basis for making the most serious accusation you can make against a professional writer? Please. dw[/quote'] He said the numbers were modified for several stats. He said the titles of the various categories (if I understand his posts correctly) were word-for-word.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I dispute the notion that the Mentalla plot seed is that common or that likely to be independently developed twice. To me' date=' that's the one that stands out. With that plot seed, the use of "Legendary" in the Stat Ranges becomes more credible as a subconsciously/consciously borrowed concept. I've heard C-- give more examples in the past but it's been a while. This has annoyed him but it appears that he hasn't attempted the sort of documentation that would satisfy you. If he did, I'd worry about his priorities.[/quote']

I don't know what his priorities are. I thought he was banned.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I don't know what his priorities are. I thought he was banned.

I guess C-- isn't banned.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

1. I think everyone will agree that mysterious pregnancies are far from an unusual plot device in superhero stories.

 

PC and Mentalla's child. I'll think everyone will agree that that's a little more specific than just a "mysterious pregnancy".

 

2. You'll have to help me here- I don't see that plot seed in either Champions or CU. Not that it also doesn't seem like a pretty typical plot device for a robot-creating bad guy. And I wrote Giant Mechanon-Head myself. Sure, it's a nod to Brainiac, though I'm not aware his head was ever planet-sized. And comics creators I refer to always get thanked in the credits.

 

Oh sure, it's typical. But again, I don't have any of my Champs books with me now, or I'd search through for where I saw the specific Mechanon plot that is mentioned (I'd probably have to look through a few other individual's books as well, as about the only Champs books I have are Galactic Champs and CKC).

 

BTW, good job on Mechanon Brainiac. I liked that one.

 

3. Umm, no. Various forms of that chart have existed since well before 1998. Several of the 4th Ed books had versions, usually written out instead of in chart form. And, as you say, this one didn't even have the same numbers for ranges as yours supposedly did. Steve wrote this one himself. At his desk, I imagine. Are you seriously suggesting we're incapable of coming up with an idea this simple and commonplace on our own?

 

No, I'm saying that someone just cut and pasted it from the board. The numbers, and descriptive terms, for this chart was the same, with the exception of the lowered PD and ED, and mental stats raised from (IIRC) 35 to 50. It's not so much the concept of a stat chart, but the extreme similarity.

 

Anyway, I'm happy to give you the time you need to come up with actual documentation of plagiarism. Screen shots will do nicely, or if you have printed copies you can fax me. I'm afraid I can't simply accept your word as proof when you're throwing around accusations as serious as these. Otherwise, I look forward to your public and profuse apology. dw

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to apologize. As Ben has said, you don't have the records of the old posts anymore. If you don't believe me, you don't believe me. But people asked what we didn't like about DOJ's handling of the Hero System, and this was one of my problems with it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I guess C-- isn't banned.

Well he should be careful then because Champsguy is going to show up and accuse him of plagiarism for claiming all those plot thread ideas here as his own, as well as the character's name.

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to apologize. As Ben has said, you don't have the records of the old posts anymore. If you don't believe me, you don't believe me. But people asked what we didn't like about DOJ's handling of the Hero System, and this was one of my problems with it.

 

We don't have the cybergames posts; but we do have (most of) the posts from the old DoJ boards. They're a real pain to dig through without a search function, but they're there.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well he should be careful then because Champsguy is going to show up and accuse him of plagiarism for claiming all those plot thread ideas here as his own' date=' as well as the character's name. [/quote']

 

Eh. I know that guy. He's a punk. Nothing but an immature power-gamer wannabe.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He said the numbers were modified for several stats. He said the titles of the various categories (if I understand his posts correctly) were word-for-word.

 

He's claiming ownership of seven words (Weak, Challenged, Average, Skilled, Competent, Legendary, Superhuman?) *That* seems like reaching... Nevertheless, I'll be happy to examine his proof. dw

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

We don't have the cybergames posts; but we do have (most of) the posts from the old DoJ boards. They're a real pain to dig through without a search function' date=' but they're there.[/quote']

 

I think they were from Cybergames, but I'm not sure. My memory is hazy as far as when those switched over. I'll do a bit of a search, and see what I can find.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to apologize.

 

Fair enough. I don't tolerate people coming into my house and accusing me of thievery, and I don't tolerate it on my boards either. You're gone. dw

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He's claiming ownership of seven words (Weak' date=' Challenged, Average, Skilled, Competent, Legendary, Superhuman?) *That* seems like reaching... Nevertheless, I'll be happy to examine his proof. dw[/quote']

 

It's a pattern, Darren. Again, I'm not suing DOJ. This was a "what don't you like" thread, and I posted what I didn't like.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well that was fun. If DOJ had just written everything the way I wanted it this never would have happened.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He's claiming ownership of seven words (Weak' date=' Challenged, Average, Skilled, Competent, Legendary, Superhuman?) *That* seems like reaching... Nevertheless, I'll be happy to examine his proof. dw[/quote']

I knew you should have used Feeble, Poor, Typical, Good, Excellent, Remarkable, and Incredible. No one would ever think to use those headers.