Don't be a hater!

[teh bunneh]

I've noticed lately that there seem to be a lot of folks ("a lot" meaning >0 in this case ) who've got a real mad-on for DOJ/Hero Games. Sort of a "I've been gaming since the late Jurassic, and all the supplements that have come out since 5th edition suck!" attitude (I'm exaggerating for effect, of course).

 

I'm wondering where this attitude is coming from?

 

Bill.

(Or is this one of those questions that I don't want to know the answer to?)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I was just thinking the same thing. "All the supplements suck", eh?

 

If you really believe that...then why are you still here, obviously wasting your time (and ours) talking about a game you loathe?!?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I dont know if it's a group of people per se, but I can certainly think of one such person off the top of my head.

 

I guess negative attention is better than no attention for some people.

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

So, is this thread about: "why some people have a hard one for DoJ's handling of the Hero System?" or "lets make comments about the people who have a hard one for DoJ's handing of the Hero System?" Just curious.

[Blackjack]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I've noticed lately that there seem to be a lot of folks ("a lot" meaning >0 in this case ) who've got a real mad-on for DOJ/Hero Games. Sort of a "I've been gaming since the late Jurassic, and all the supplements that have come out since 5th edition suck!" attitude (I'm exaggerating for effect, of course).

 

I'm wondering where this attitude is coming from?

 

Bill.

(Or is this one of those questions that I don't want to know the answer to?)

 

Most of the people in my gaming groups have reacted mostly favorably to the Fifth Edition and its supplements. Obviously, there has been some disagreement on a few of the new things: some of the UMA Martial Maneuvers, MegaScale, etc. However, most of that comes more from inertia and a lack of desire to re-tune older characters than actual criticism of the rules themselves...

 

As for 'not wanting to know the answer,' I think your implication may be right. Some people do like to complain simply for the sake of complaining. Others may have legitimate criticisms: "I'd have done it differently..." but that doesn't necessarily mean the work is bad.

 

Me? I've got no complaints. HERO's books haven't disappointed me yet.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

So' date=' is this thread about: "why some people have a hard one for DoJ's handling of the Hero System?" or "lets make comments about the people who have a hard one for DoJ's handing of the Hero System?" Just curious.[/quote']

 

The first. I'm genuinely curious.

 

And I'm not going to mention any names (though everyone knows why the question came up in my mind). I can think of at least 3 people in the last few months that might qualify. This latest was just what got me thinking about it.

 

Bill.

(Unfortunately, I have no control over where the thread might go, but such are the dangers of the net).

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I don't believe that it's so much a concept of hating DOJ/Hero Games as it that many of us don't hold DOJ/Hero Games in absolute awe. It's very possible to love the system but not really respect what is being done with it.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

To be honest... I think I just posted my feeling on this in this other thread.

 

Summing it up in one... Steve Long's interpretation of Hero does not really match my own in most places, so I find the products under 5th to be relatively unnecessary for me to run Hero as a system.

 

Also... go back to the old Hero is a System not a game. I love the system... but I've got my own game, and don't need or find too much use from the "game" supplements produced.

 

Or the whole "Great machine shop... but no sports car" issue as debated in other threads.

 

They are all versions of the same argument.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I don't believe that it's so much a concept of hating DOJ/Hero Games as it that many of us don't hold DOJ/Hero Games in absolute awe. It's very possible to love the system but not really respect what is being done with it.

That's fair. I understand that point of view completely, and while you've made certain preferences in regards to system and/or versions clear, you've pretty much maintained a civil manner about it. You say why you don't like a particular rule/mechanic, offer an alternative, and go from there.

 

There are those, however--at least two, though one stands out--who genuinely seem to hate the system and the company, and I think it's fair to ask why. I'm a fanboy of Hero Games and the system in general, but I'm not as rules-intensive as some so those areas that some folks have problems with are usually okay with me. I'm a fanboy because I thoroughly enjoy the system as compared with other systems I've tried.

 

It's a fair question, I think, and I second the hope that this doesn't turn into a flame fest.

[atlascott]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I can think of at least 3 people in the last few months that might qualify...

 

Well, since I am probably one of those three people, allow me to clarify what I have already made clear in the past. I LOVE the HERO system. I think its great, and it is my game system of choice. I am about to run a Star Wars HERO conversion, that's how much I hate it.

 

Now, as to the genrebooks, let's have what is good for the goose be good for the gander. Most of the supplements for the HERO system are not up to the quality and usefulness they exhibited in 3rd and 4th Edition. Sure, the type is nicer, there are more books and more pages. But I always thought supplements were to help you run the game, and genre books were suppsoed to save the GM some work by giving you a genned world. I'm not going into details--I have spent many, many, many posts doing so. SO I guess put me in the whiny b#tch category, and the guys who agree with this thread's author can go in the fanboi category, since evidently any criticism makes you a hater.

 

I'm not saying that others cannot see value in the genre books. I'm just saying that, with 3 months of free time, most guys on this list could have self-published a more useful, more cohesive, more informative genre/gameworld book than any of the current offerings. NOT a dissertation on HOW to play in a Space campaign--rather, a REAL, INTERESTING game world with a bunch of equipment statted out, enemies with actual character sheets, plot seeds, etc.

 

Its like going in for a brake job. The mechanic gives you a tool box. You tell him, no, I want a BRAKE JOB. He opens the tool box and hands you a wrench. In this analogy, the HERO rule book is the toolbox, and the genre books are the wrench--they dont get the job done, and the Gm still has to do ALL of the heavy lifting.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Bear in mind I'm not THAT familiar with the system, nor do I have much of a basis for comparison . . .

 

Personally, I like the freedom this system affords. I like that you can build literally any set of powers or play any type of character, and the only limitation is how many points your GM gives you to work with.

 

I've discussed the use of the Hero system with other non-Hero gamers, and the consensus amongst those who've tried Hero and never returned is that combat takes too long. I agree, but when you game with The Dither Twins, I figured that was part and parcel.

 

I can't compare this version with any other. Maybe I'll have more input after I've read the book cover to cover (which I'm doing just as soon as Josh and I can afford 5ER, I assure you). I'm guessing the complaints are in the details and being able to wrap your mind around which way a power has to be approached.

 

But if the Hero system was less complicated, we'd sacrifice that freedom I love so much about the system. That and, I suspect, the Hero Games community wouldn't thrive the way it does. How many people in this community wandered in because they had a question?

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well, since I am probably one of those three people, allow me to clarify what I have already made clear in the past. I LOVE the HERO system. I think its great, and it is my game system of choice. I am about to run a Star Wars HERO conversion, that's how much I hate it.

 

Now, as to the genrebooks, let's have what is good for the goose be good for the gander. Most of the supplements for the HERO system are not up to the quality and usefulness they exhibited in 3rd and 4th Edition. Sure, the type is nicer, there are more books and more pages. But I always thought supplements were to help you run the game, and genre books were suppsoed to save the GM some work by giving you a genned world. I'm not going into details--I have spent many, many, many posts doing so. SO I guess put me in the whiny b#tch category, and the guys who agree with this thread's author can go in the fanboi category, since evidently any criticism makes you a hater.

 

I'm not saying that others cannot see value in the genre books. I'm just saying that, with 3 months of free time, most guys on this list could have self-published a more useful, more cohesive, more informative genre/gameworld book than any of the current offerings. NOT a dissertation on HOW to play in a Space campaign--rather, a REAL, INTERESTING game world with a bunch of equipment statted out, enemies with actual character sheets, plot seeds, etc.

 

Its like going in for a brake job. The mechanic gives you a tool box. You tell him, no, I want a BRAKE JOB. He opens the tool box and hands you a wrench. In this analogy, the HERO rule book is the toolbox, and the genre books are the wrench--they dont get the job done, and the Gm still has to do ALL of the heavy lifting.

 

I'll point out that the genre books aren't actually supposed to give you a complete game world. They are supposed to be a "how to" book on the genre. The sourcebooks are where the specific worlds come in. For instance, Star Hero is a genre book. It has a lot of material in it, but all of it is fairly general, not really geared towards one world/universe. Terran Empire is a sourcebook for the Terran Empire universe. It has specifics on how that particular universe works, for use with the Star Hero genre book.

 

So a better analogy would be 5ER is the toolbox. Star Hero is the mechanic showing you which tools you need, and how they work. The Terran Empire is the mechanic doing the brake job for you. You just didn't drill down far enough. Star Hero is SUPPOSED to be a dissertation on how to build your own universe. And then they published Terran Empire for those that didn't want to.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I'm not saying that others cannot see value in the genre books. I'm just saying that' date=' with 3 months of free time, most guys on this list could have self-published a more useful, more cohesive, more informative genre/gameworld book than any of the current offerings. NOT a dissertation on HOW to play in a Space campaign--rather, a REAL, INTERESTING game world with a bunch of equipment statted out, enemies with actual character sheets, plot seeds, etc.

 

I'm not as familiar with 3rd and 4th editions, but it feels like what you're describing (a "genre" book) is inherently worldless. It doesn't describe a world, it describes a genre. Do you have a criticism of the Turakian Age or the Terran Empire, because I feel like those books are exactly what you're outlining.

 

Not disagreeing with you - just trying to clarify.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well' date=' since I am probably one of those three people, allow me to clarify what I have already made clear in the past.[/quote']

 

To anyone who's thinking, "He's talking about me!": I'm almost certainly not talking about you.

 

I LOVE the HERO system. I think its great, and it is my game system of choice. I am about to run a Star Wars HERO conversion, that's how much I hate it.

 

There is (in my mind at least) a difference between "I was disappointed in Sourcebook XYZ," and "DOJ is ruining the Hero System!" I've always had the impression that you mostly fall into the first category.

 

Bill.

(But I could be mistaken).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

And lest anyone misunderstand, the "you" I mentioned in my post above applies to anyone who seems to frequent these forums for the sole purpose of saying how much / how badly HERO, HERO 5th, DOJ, etc. "sucks", without adding anything of use to the community or the discussions herein..

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

There are three seperate things here (in order of importance, to me, anyway).

 

#1: Changes to the system -- As RDU Neil said, the method that DOJ has taken to the Hero rules is different than what I would have done. Often, changes seem to have been made for "consistency" that, to me, seemed to show that whoever was making those changes failed to understand some of the basic mechanics and price structures of the game. When I first found Hero, it was 4th Edition, and I loved it, because I could look at every single piece of it, and I understood exactly why a certain Power or Advantage was costed as it was. There were many changes that I found that seemed to have been made without such an understanding.

 

#2: Lifts from the boards without attribution -- I can flip through several of the first DOJ books and pull out information that was posted on the old boards. From house rules to campaign ideas and plot threads, I can think of half a dozen plus ideas that were lifted, almost word for word from threads on the old boards. It's a "I remember when Bob posted that on the boards" thing. It's not attributed, there's no "thanks to the guys on the Hero board for their great ideas!" It's simply presented as DOJ's own ideas. That's a good way to anger your customer fan base real fast.

 

#3: Military writeups -- These follow no rhyme or reason. They seem to follow the "big numbers are good, 'cause guns am powerful" school of thought. There was a guy on this board, years ago, who openly asked everyone what the damage for a character getting thrown into a rotating helicopter blade would be. His guess? 8D6 killing, AP Penetrating. Apparently they hired this guy to write up vehicles and damage from explosions and such.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

#2: Lifts from the boards without attribution -- I can flip through several of the first DOJ books and pull out information that was posted on the old boards. From house rules to campaign ideas and plot threads, I can think of half a dozen plus ideas that were lifted, almost word for word from threads on the old boards. It's a "I remember when Bob posted that on the boards" thing. It's not attributed, there's no "thanks to the guys on the Hero board for their great ideas!" It's simply presented as DOJ's own ideas. That's a good way to anger your customer fan base real fast.

 

 

This is an absolutely preposterous and tremendously insulting charge with no basis in fact. Please back it up with some proof or apologize to the entire collection of staffers and freelancers whose reputations you've tried to tarnish. dw

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

#2: Lifts from the boards without attribution -- I can flip through several of the first DOJ books and pull out information that was posted on the old boards. From house rules to campaign ideas and plot threads' date=' I can think of half a dozen plus ideas that were lifted, [i']almost word for word[/i] from threads on the old boards. It's a "I remember when Bob posted that on the boards" thing. It's not attributed, there's no "thanks to the guys on the Hero board for their great ideas!" It's simply presented as DOJ's own ideas. That's a good way to anger your customer fan base real fast.

I seem to remember Agent X making this exact same claim. I too would like to see some proof of this [something more substantial that a character plot seed theme being similar]. Steve Long is too prolific of an author to need to steal ideas, let alone "almost word for word," and while I don't know that much about Darren Watts his work seems to be stolen from comics in the normal homage sense.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

#1: Changes to the system -- As RDU Neil said' date=' the method that DOJ has taken to the Hero rules is different than what I would have done.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's one of the main complaints I've seen. But when I think about pre-DOJ Hero, I can personally think of 2 or 3 different directions it could've gone (assuming it didn't just wither & die). I'm sure you can think of 2 or 3 more (and they're probably different from my ideas).

 

Everybody who's played the game for more than a couple of years has their own idea of how to play it (and this holds true for all games, not just Hero). So they didn't take the path you would have taken... so what? They didn't take the path I'd've taken either -- or the one that Dr. Anomaly would've taken, or the one that MitchellS would have taken, or probably anyone else on these boards (or in the wide world of gamers).

 

I'm not entirely convinced it's a legitimate beef that they didn't consult you (or me, or MitchellS, or whoever) before they reworked the system. After all, that's why God invented House Rules.

 

Bill.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Yeah, that's one of the main complaints I've seen. But when I think about pre-DOJ Hero, I can personally think of 2 or 3 different directions it could've gone (assuming it didn't just wither & die). I'm sure you can think of 2 or 3 more (and they're probably different from my ideas).

 

Everybody who's played the game for more than a couple of years has their own idea of how to play it (and this holds true for all games, not just Hero). So they didn't take the path you would have taken... so what? They didn't take the path I'd've taken either -- or the one that Dr. Anomaly would've taken, or the one that MitchellS would have taken, or probably anyone else on these boards (or in the wide world of gamers).

 

I'm not entirely convinced it's a legitimate beef that they didn't consult you (or me, or MitchellS, or whoever) before they reworked the system. After all, that's why God invented House Rules.

 

Bill.

I think it's more of an issue of adding, in my opinion, un-needed complexity to a game system, which was already very complex, in a market environment that was stressing simplicity. While complexity is favorable to some people most people don't find it enjoyable. Any business must find a way to cater to the majority to be successful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

From time to time we've had people come to the boards who seem to be fixated on negativity, criticism and confrontationism. These include both hard-line HERO critics and HERO advocates; we tend to notice the former more because the latter don't stand out as often on forums devoted to the game. Both of these can be annoying, but they do have a right to raise concerns and objections, and in many cases the points they raise deserve consideration and response. I'm comfortable with the assertion that HERO isn't perfect, and the current company members aren't infallible. I do think it makes a big difference if the poster uses a respectful tone, and tries to be constructive by either offering suggestions for dealing with the problems they see, or soliciting suggestions from others. Simply venting your dissatisfaction with something in the rules, or someone in the company or on the boards, may feel good but adds little to a discussion. Pursuing a debate on that basis quickly descends into trying to get in the last word.

 

I suppose what tends to grate me the most is people who appear (and they may not mean it that way) to state that whatever they and perhaps their gaming circle sees as wrong is therefore self-evidently wrong, and people with different opinions or preferences are not only wrong but incompetent for not seeing that they're wrong. Particularly in a game, there's very little in the way of dispute that doesn't boil down to personal preferences and subjective experience. It's also worth remembering that even if a majority of posters here on the forums might agree with an objection (which very rarely happens in my experience), that would still be only a small portion of the HERO gaming community and could hardly be considered representative

 

Really, though, the percentage of people who are unpleasant about all this is never very large, and individuals tend to disappear after a while when the rest of our community stops taking them seriously.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I think it's more of an issue of adding' date=' in my opinion, un-needed complexity to a game system, which was already very complex, in a market environment that was stressing simplicity. While complexity is favorable to some people most people don't find it enjoyable. Any business must find a way to cater to the majority to be successful.[/quote']

Not that this is the case here, but there are more than a few people who find the "simplification for it's own sake" mentality to be...well, wrong. I don't mind complex if it fits my idea of a good system.

 

I guess what always surprises me about these discussions is the lengths people will go to in pointing out what's wrong, but never compliment the foundation, the basics, or the mechanics (or whatever component drew them to the system in the first place). It's what prompted the thread, I think; a general "it sucks, and so do the people who write it" mentality that makes one wonder why some people are still on board.

 

The system isn't for everyone, obviously. Within the system there are mistakes in math, mechanics, application and judgment. That's to be expected, I think, and it's something I'm perfectly content to live with. Some of the rule discussions that occur here are quite enlightening, while others to me seem unnecessarily intense. Some people discuss rules the way others discuss politics, taking a side and sticking to it no matter what without allowing for difference of opinion or even the possibility (minute though it may be) that they're wrong in their assumptions, or worse, that someone else might be able to do it differently and like it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Not that this is the case here, but there are more than a few people who find the "simplification for it's own sake" mentality to be...well, wrong. I don't mind complex if it fits my idea of a good system.

 

I guess what always surprises me about these discussions is the lengths people will go to in pointing out what's wrong, but never compliment the foundation, the basics, or the mechanics (or whatever component drew them to the system in the first place). It's what prompted the thread, I think; a general "it sucks, and so do the people who write it" mentality that makes one wonder why some people are still on board.

 

The system isn't for everyone, obviously. Within the system there are mistakes in math, mechanics, application and judgment. That's to be expected, I think, and it's something I'm perfectly content to live with. Some of the rule discussions that occur here are quite enlightening, while others to me seem unnecessarily intense. Some people discuss rules the way others discuss politics, taking a side and sticking to it no matter what without allowing for difference of opinion or even the possibility (minute though it may be) that they're wrong in their assumptions, or worse, that someone else might be able to do it differently and like it.

I think most of us complimented the foundation 20+ years ago. We complimented George M., and Steve P., and Ray G., and Bruce H., and Aaron A. I even remember complimenting Rob Bell at Gen Con one year for his fine work on 4E.

[dorwaystudios]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Noob here, with my 1 cent:

 

I don't know if this is exactly on topic, but I can say as someone who was drawn to Hero System by this board, FREd is really difficult to a new player.

 

Admittedly, I have ZERO local support in my quest to learn this system, but I bought Sidekick to learn the basics...and I couldn't generate a working Champions character out of it. So I bought the full FREd thinking, surely it must make more sense in the complete rules. Nope.

 

Now, I'm not a dunce. I'm 32 and I have a "real" job writing technical proposals. But to me, after spending $65+ dollars, I should have enough information to generate a character. But Power generation just seems completely arbitrary with no discernable formula for cost.

 

After getting some help from an incredibly generous board member (who asked me not to use his name) I have a usable character for the PBEM I joined. However, I have no idea how the numbers were constructed and I can't even reverse engineer a theory.

 

Now, I love this board and the people on them. But a system doesn't seem very successful if a new player can't pick it up and play.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Noob here, with my 1 cent:

 

I don't know if this is exactly on topic, but I can say as someone who was drawn to Hero System by this board, FREd is really difficult to a new player.

 

Admittedly, I have ZERO local support in my quest to learn this system, but I bought Sidekick to learn the basics...and I couldn't generate a working Champions character out of it. So I bought the full FREd thinking, surely it must make more sense in the complete rules. Nope.

 

Now, I'm not a dunce. I'm 32 and I have a "real" job writing technical proposals. But to me, after spending $65+ dollars, I should have enough information to generate a character. But Power generation just seems completely arbitrary with no discernable formula for cost.

 

After getting some help from an incredibly generous board member (who asked me not to use his name) I have a usable character for the PBEM I joined. However, I have no idea how the numbers were constructed and I can't even reverse engineer a theory.

 

Now, I love this board and the people on them. But a system doesn't seem very successful if a new player can't pick it up and play.

Yes, that is something I have been complaining about for a long time. I'm glad people on the forum were able to help you. The first 3 pages of 5Er should have been "GO TO THE HERO GAMES FORUM TO LEARN HOW TO USE THE RULES IN THIS BOOK" in bold print.