Don't be a hater!

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Noob here, with my 1 cent:

 

I don't know if this is exactly on topic, but I can say as someone who was drawn to Hero System by this board, FREd is really difficult to a new player.

 

Admittedly, I have ZERO local support in my quest to learn this system, but I bought Sidekick to learn the basics...and I couldn't generate a working Champions character out of it. So I bought the full FREd thinking, surely it must make more sense in the complete rules. Nope.

 

Now, I'm not a dunce. I'm 32 and I have a "real" job writing technical proposals. But to me, after spending $65+ dollars, I should have enough information to generate a character. But Power generation just seems completely arbitrary with no discernable formula for cost.

 

After getting some help from an incredibly generous board member (who asked me not to use his name) I have a usable character for the PBEM I joined. However, I have no idea how the numbers were constructed and I can't even reverse engineer a theory.

 

Now, I love this board and the people on them. But a system doesn't seem very successful if a new player can't pick it up and play.

 

If you would like to PM me (or ask in this or another thread for that matter) I would be more than happy to help you understand how the system works. You should indeed have everything you need with just the Sidekick to create complete, workable characters. You'll have to let me know what parts don't make sense to you though, as I've been playing for 24 or so years, and even with the changes to the system the way the rules work seem quite intuitive to me.

 

I will say that I'm getting ready to be out of town for an extended weekend, but I should be back on the boards Tuesday.

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Yes' date=' that is something I have been complaining about for a long time. I'm glad people on the forum were able to help you. The first 3 pages of 5Er should have been "[b']GO TO THE HERO GAMES FORUM TO LEARN HOW TO USE THE RULES IN THIS BOOK[/b]" in bold print.

 

Huh, I didn't have any problems when I picked up the game in '81, and the core mechanics of the system are pretty much the same now as they were then. The only people I had helping me had had the game for about a day and a half longer than me, so we all pretty much figured it out together. There's a lot more stuff in the system now, but all the formula for chargen are pretty much the same.

[schir1964]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

But a system doesn't seem very successful if a new player can't pick it up and play.

I appreciate this opnion, however, let me share my own experience in relation to idea.

 

Dungeon & Dragons: I couldn't just pick it up and play. Had to have help the first time to actually generate a character properly. Second character generated died in the first hour (obviously not a functional character).

 

Rolemaster/Spacemaster/RMSS: I couldn't just pick it up and play. Had to have help in generating a character the first couple of times.

 

Traveller (Classic): Could pick it up and just play. Character generation left no room for any kind of decisions (all dice results).

 

Based on these experiences, which of these systems would be considered "successful"?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Huh' date=' I didn't have any problems when I picked up the game in '81, and the core mechanics of the system are pretty much the same now as they were then. The only people I had helping me had had the game for about a day and a half longer than me, so we all pretty much figured it out together. There's a lot more stuff in the system now, but all the formula for chargen are pretty much the same.[/quote']

I didn't have any problems in '81 either. George McDonald taught me the whole game in a 15 minute demo. But 1E and 5Er are two different fish.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

This is an absolutely preposterous and tremendously insulting charge with no basis in fact. Please back it up with some proof or apologize to the entire collection of staffers and freelancers whose reputations you've tried to tarnish. dw

 

It's not preposterous. It's absolutely true. I'll list the ones I remember (forgive me for not providing a page citation for some of these, but I don't have my books with me, and I didn't buy some of them).

 

In Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, a possible plot seed for Mentalla is listed as "Mentalla is pregnant, and she claims the PC is the father! The PC has no idea what she's talking about." This seems unusally similar to the origin of one particular PC (known as "The Son of Con-El"), who had travelled from the future, and was the son of... PC "Con-El" and Mentalla. Con-El had no idea what she was talking about. I remember the post describing that plot-seed very distinctly. I should. I was in that game.

 

A plot seed for Mechanon (must be in the Champions Universe book, or whichever one he appears in) described his having transformed the moon into a giant manufacturing plant that was constantly producing killer robots to wipe out humanity (I believe it was listed in whichever book as a conspiracy theory that had been disproved). I remember this plot clearly. I ran the game where that happened. I remember the plot being posted, and numerous "This is the coolest Mechanon plot I've ever seen" posts by various board members. I'm discounting the Mechanon-head from Galactic Champions because of its obvious similarity to Brainiac.

 

The Champions genre book has a chart, listing when stats become paranormal. Stats from 25-30 are considered "Legendary". This was posted to this board by another poster (I don't remember who), in a virtually identical form to the one that appeared in the Champions genre book. The only changes were a raising of the mental attributes, and a lowering of the max human PD and ED from 20 to 15. I remember this clearly, because I wrote that chart as an example to someone else on the Webrpg boards back in '98 or '99 (in a discussion of normal characteristic maximum). It was reposted here in its entirety. Then it finds its way, with only minor changes, into the Champions genre book.

 

Those are the only ones that came directly from me. There are many others that I noticed when I flipped through those books ("Hey, I remember when so-and-so posted that"). I believe there are one or two others that came from others in my gaming group. Honestly, the biggest response it got out of me was general irritation and a refusal to buy certain books (why do I need to buy the book when I remember half of it from the boards).

 

But no, it's not preposterous at all. I was sitting in the University of Oklahoma computer lab in Dale Hall Tower (the political science building), posting to the webrpg boards during a break between classes when I wrote the stat table that appears in the first few pages of the Champions book. Please, all-knowing Darren, do you know who wrote that table, and where they were sitting at the time?

[incrdbil]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Eh, it's the Internet. Opinions and the vehemance in expressing them get magified several times just due to the removal of most social inhibitions and the inevitable complications of online chesthumping and ego stroking; then you have the absolute drama that fanboys and bitterboys alike crave.

 

I don't know why gaming companies bother anymore to attain feedback from their netforums; the extremes of opinions presented are usually so out of whack with the average market that its hard to get a accurate, useful analysis out of it.

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I didn't have any problems in '81 either. George McDonald taught me the whole game in a 15 minute demo. But 1E and 5Er are two different fish.

 

Very true. But the basics of chargen are still pretty much the same. More choices, but the same mechanics holding it together. Active points are still (BaseCost * (1+Advantages)) / (1+limitations). You have more things to plug into the formula, but the formula is still the same. Strength still costs 1 point per point. Dex still costs 3 points per point. Stripped down, it is still the same mechanics. There are just more bells and whistles available to play with.

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The fact that something (may have) appeared on the boards and then in a book doesn't mean there was a conscious effort to lift it. We all take in a massive amount of information and ideas every day (from a wide variety of sources) and this information makes its way into our creative efforts. Its normal artist process. We absorb, the subconscious gels everything together, and something new comes out. Its entirely possible someone to include something and not remember who or where the inspiration came from. Steve produces a lot of material and has probably has notes all over the place (or folders of notepad files). If he's anything like the rest of us (or me at least), he probably doesn't even know which notes were jotted down while talking to co-workers, watching movies, reading source books, brainstorming, or checking the boards. I think its worth giving Steve and Co. the benefit of the doubt.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's not preposterous. It's absolutely true. I'll list the ones I remember (forgive me for not providing a page citation for some of these, but I don't have my books with me, and I didn't buy some of them).

 

In Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, a possible plot seed for Mentalla is listed as "Mentalla is pregnant, and she claims the PC is the father! The PC has no idea what she's talking about." This seems unusally similar to the origin of one particular PC (known as "The Son of Con-El"), who had travelled from the future, and was the son of... PC "Con-El" and Mentalla. Con-El had no idea what she was talking about. I remember the post describing that plot-seed very distinctly. I should. I was in that game.

 

A plot seed for Mechanon (must be in the Champions Universe book, or whichever one he appears in) described his having transformed the moon into a giant manufacturing plant that was constantly producing killer robots to wipe out humanity (I believe it was listed in whichever book as a conspiracy theory that had been disproved). I remember this plot clearly. I ran the game where that happened. I remember the plot being posted, and numerous "This is the coolest Mechanon plot I've ever seen" posts by various board members. I'm discounting the Mechanon-head from Galactic Champions because of its obvious similarity to Brainiac.

 

The Champions genre book has a chart, listing when stats become paranormal. Stats from 25-30 are considered "Legendary". This was posted to this board by another poster (I don't remember who), in a virtually identical form to the one that appeared in the Champions genre book. The only changes were a raising of the mental attributes, and a lowering of the max human PD and ED from 20 to 15. I remember this clearly, because I wrote that chart as an example to someone else on the Webrpg boards back in '98 or '99 (in a discussion of normal characteristic maximum). It was reposted here in its entirety. Then it finds its way, with only minor changes, into the Champions genre book.

 

Those are the only ones that came directly from me. There are many others that I noticed when I flipped through those books ("Hey, I remember when so-and-so posted that"). I believe there are one or two others that came from others in my gaming group. Honestly, the biggest response it got out of me was general irritation and a refusal to buy certain books (why do I need to buy the book when I remember half of it from the boards).

 

But no, it's not preposterous at all. I was sitting in the University of Oklahoma computer lab in Dale Hall Tower (the political science building), posting to the webrpg boards during a break between classes when I wrote the stat table that appears in the first few pages of the Champions book. Please, all-knowing Darren, do you know who wrote that table, and where they were sitting at the time?

The Mechanon plot seed has him building a spacecraft and traveling to the asteroid belt and bombarding the earth with asteroids to kill humanity. There is no mention of the moon or killer robots. I won't even bother to look up the second. You're obviously working on hearsay rather than actual proof.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The Mechanon plot seed has him building a spacecraft and traveling to the asteroid belt and bombarding the earth with asteroids to kill humanity. There is no mention of the moon or killer robots. I won't even bother to look up the second. You're obviously working on hearsay rather than actual proof.

 

As I said, I don't own the book with Mechanon in it. I believed it was in the Champions Universe book (I think that's the one he's in), but I could be wrong. However, I am 100% positive that I read the "Mechanon taking over the moon" in one of the books I decided not to purchase.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The fact that something (may have) appeared on the boards and then in a book doesn't mean there was a conscious effort to lift it. We all take in a massive amount of information and ideas every day (from a wide variety of sources) and this information makes its way into our creative efforts. Its normal artist process. We absorb' date=' the subconscious gels everything together, and something new comes out. Its entirely possible someone to include something and not remember who or where the inspiration came from. Steve produces a lot of material and has probably has notes all over the place (or folders of notepad files). If he's anything like the rest of us (or me at least), he probably doesn't even know which notes were jotted down while talking to co-workers, watching movies, reading source books, brainstorming, or checking the boards. I think its worth giving Steve and Co. the benefit of the doubt.[/quote']

 

That may very well be the case, but I believe it's closer to "Hey, that's a cool idea. [cut][paste]"

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Am I the only one who thinks Champsguy has returned?

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's not preposterous. It's absolutely true. I'll list the ones I remember (forgive me for not providing a page citation for some of these, but I don't have my books with me, and I didn't buy some of them).

 

In Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, a possible plot seed for Mentalla is listed as "Mentalla is pregnant, and she claims the PC is the father! The PC has no idea what she's talking about." This seems unusally similar to the origin of one particular PC (known as "The Son of Con-El"), who had travelled from the future, and was the son of... PC "Con-El" and Mentalla. Con-El had no idea what she was talking about. I remember the post describing that plot-seed very distinctly. I should. I was in that game.

 

Fairly generic plot seed. I've seen takes on it on TV shows and in comic books. You version throws in time travel, but since there aren't really that many female NPCs in CU, it isn't surprising that they used a similar plot device with the same NPC.

 

A plot seed for Mechanon (must be in the Champions Universe book' date=' or whichever one he appears in) described his having transformed the moon into a giant manufacturing plant that was constantly producing killer robots to wipe out humanity (I believe it was listed in whichever book as a conspiracy theory that had been disproved). I remember this plot clearly. I ran the game where that happened. I remember the plot being posted, and numerous "This is the coolest Mechanon plot I've ever seen" posts by various board members. I'm discounting the Mechanon-head from Galactic Champions because of its obvious similarity to Brainiac.[/quote']

 

Another fairly generic plot seed. Hmm...what is the largest chunk of raw material around that a megalomaniac robot can use without anyone else noticing...

 

The Champions genre book has a chart' date=' listing when stats become paranormal. Stats from 25-30 are considered "Legendary". This was posted to this board by another poster (I don't remember who), in a virtually identical form to the one that appeared in the Champions genre book. The only changes were a raising of the mental attributes, and a lowering of the max human PD and ED from 20 to 15. I remember this clearly, because I wrote that chart as an example to someone else on the Webrpg boards back in '98 or '99 (in a discussion of normal characteristic maximum). It was reposted here in its entirety. Then it finds its way, with only minor changes, into the Champions genre book.[/quote']

 

I had a similar chart written up before I ever found the boards. So?

 

Those are the only ones that came directly from me. There are many others that I noticed when I flipped through those books ("Hey, I remember when so-and-so posted that"). I believe there are one or two others that came from others in my gaming group. Honestly, the biggest response it got out of me was general irritation and a refusal to buy certain books (why do I need to buy the book when I remember half of it from the boards).

 

But no, it's not preposterous at all. I was sitting in the University of Oklahoma computer lab in Dale Hall Tower (the political science building), posting to the webrpg boards during a break between classes when I wrote the stat table that appears in the first few pages of the Champions book. Please, all-knowing Darren, do you know who wrote that table, and where they were sitting at the time?

 

I don't know when the chart in the book got written up, but the first one I wrote up was in '84 or '85. I was at home, in my room. Wrote it by hand, as I didn't have a computer at the time.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

There are three seperate things here (in order of importance, to me, anyway).

 

 

#2: Lifts from the boards without attribution -- I can flip through several of the first DOJ books and pull out information that was posted on the old boards. From house rules to campaign ideas and plot threads, I can think of half a dozen plus ideas that were lifted, almost word for word from threads on the old boards. It's a "I remember when Bob posted that on the boards" thing. It's not attributed, there's no "thanks to the guys on the Hero board for their great ideas!" It's simply presented as DOJ's own ideas. That's a good way to anger your customer fan base real fast.

 

 

I've been thanked in at least one book for contributions I made on the board. I've seen general thanks to the Playtesters, and Hero fans for their contributions. Who doesn't think that they've been thanked?

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

As I said' date=' I don't own the book with Mechanon in it. I believed it was in the Champions Universe book (I think that's the one he's in), but I could be wrong. However, I am 100% positive that I read the "Mechanon taking over the moon" in one of the books I decided not to purchase.[/quote']

Well that's conclusive proof then. I've only ever had Dr. Destroyer, Omega, and Fiacho [along with Eurostar] take over the moon in the last 20 years. The fact that you had Mechanon do it and not me must mean you're right.

 

BTW, Mechanon is in Champions.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Fairly generic plot seed. I've seen takes on it on TV shows and in comic books. You version throws in time travel, but since there aren't really that many female NPCs in CU, it isn't surprising that they used a similar plot device with the same NPC.

 

Another fairly generic plot seed. Hmm...what is the largest chunk of raw material around that a megalomaniac robot can use without anyone else noticing...

 

Yeah, but both of these were posted together in the span of about (IIRC) two or three days. These are too similar for me to be convinced that it is mere accident, especially considering:

 

I had a similar chart written up before I ever found the boards. So?

 

I don't know when the chart in the book got written up, but the first one I wrote up was in '84 or '85. I was at home, in my room. Wrote it by hand, as I didn't have a computer at the time.

 

Did it appear word for word in 5th Edition? 'Cause mine did, and it was posted to the board about the time that word started spreading that Steve Long was gonna buy Hero.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

er, yeah, the Mentalla two sentance plot seed that wasn't even all that similar to your example (your example dealing with time travel) doesn't seem to be plagerism in the highest.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

er' date=' yeah, the Mentalla two sentance plot seed that wasn't even all that similar to your example (your example dealing with time travel) doesn't seem to be plagerism in the highest.[/quote'] The Mentalla amnesiac pregnancy thing is a coincidence?

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well that's conclusive proof then. I've only ever had Dr. Destroyer' date=' Omega, and Fiacho [along with Eurostar'] take over the moon in the last 20 years. The fact that you had Mechanon do it and not me must mean you're right.

 

 

No, it's the whole "converting the entire moon into a giant factory" that I thought was pretty cool. Apparently someone with DOJ thought so too.

 

BTW, Mechanon is in Champions.

 

Cool. I didn't buy either Champs Universe or Champs. I know how to run a superhero game.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The fact that something (may have) appeared on the boards and then in a book doesn't mean there was a conscious effort to lift it. We all take in a massive amount of information and ideas every day (from a wide variety of sources) and this information makes its way into our creative efforts. Its normal artist process. We absorb' date=' the subconscious gels everything together, and something new comes out. Its entirely possible someone to include something and not remember who or where the inspiration came from. Steve produces a lot of material and has probably has notes all over the place (or folders of notepad files). If he's anything like the rest of us (or me at least), he probably doesn't even know which notes were jotted down while talking to co-workers, watching movies, reading source books, brainstorming, or checking the boards. I think its worth giving Steve and Co. the benefit of the doubt.[/quote']

I was reading an old interview with the author David Gemmell the other day and he was asked about fanfic. He said, essesntially, that he hated it. He can't stop it, but he won't read it and it annoys him to think it's out there. When asked why he replied, (paraphrasing) "Because at some point someone's going to come along and say I stole an idea from them." In another interview he stated that, essentially, someone who takes his work, turns it into something else, then tries to claim ownership of it is not only wrong, it's rude.

 

I'm sorry "C--" feels the way he does, but frankly the few paragraphs of information presented, when weighed against the volumes of material written for Hero Games, isn't enough for me to think they're purposefully lifting ideas. I hate to say it's a "his word vs. mine" thing, but that's kinda what it sounds like.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Did it appear word for word in 5th Edition? 'Cause mine did' date=' and it was posted to the board about the time that word started spreading that Steve Long was gonna buy Hero.[/quote']

You actually think you're the only person to ever have a chart listing 30 as maximum human? I'll bet if you do a search you'll find a dozen people who have posted such a chart. We've used 30 for all primary characteristics since 3E. I've probably posted a similar chart here myself. Methinks you are a little too full of your own self importance.

 

And BTW, again, it appeared in Champions Universe, not 5th Edition.

[Guest C--]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

er' date=' yeah, the Mentalla two sentance plot seed that wasn't even all that similar to your example (your example dealing with time travel) doesn't seem to be plagerism in the highest.[/quote']

 

Mine involved a 20 year old PC coming to the present from about 20 years in the future, sooo...

 

Again, I'm not pressing a lawsuit here. I'm just saying that it's a slight to certain Hero fans. The only thing it cost DOJ was book sales.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's not preposterous. It's absolutely true. I'll list the ones I remember (forgive me for not providing a page citation for some of these, but I don't have my books with me, and I didn't buy some of them).

 

In Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, a possible plot seed for Mentalla is listed as "Mentalla is pregnant, and she claims the PC is the father! The PC has no idea what she's talking about." This seems unusally similar to the origin of one particular PC (known as "The Son of Con-El"), who had travelled from the future, and was the son of... PC "Con-El" and Mentalla. Con-El had no idea what she was talking about. I remember the post describing that plot-seed very distinctly. I should. I was in that game.

 

A plot seed for Mechanon (must be in the Champions Universe book, or whichever one he appears in) described his having transformed the moon into a giant manufacturing plant that was constantly producing killer robots to wipe out humanity (I believe it was listed in whichever book as a conspiracy theory that had been disproved). I remember this plot clearly. I ran the game where that happened. I remember the plot being posted, and numerous "This is the coolest Mechanon plot I've ever seen" posts by various board members. I'm discounting the Mechanon-head from Galactic Champions because of its obvious similarity to Brainiac.

 

The Champions genre book has a chart, listing when stats become paranormal. Stats from 25-30 are considered "Legendary". This was posted to this board by another poster (I don't remember who), in a virtually identical form to the one that appeared in the Champions genre book. The only changes were a raising of the mental attributes, and a lowering of the max human PD and ED from 20 to 15. I remember this clearly, because I wrote that chart as an example to someone else on the Webrpg boards back in '98 or '99 (in a discussion of normal characteristic maximum). It was reposted here in its entirety. Then it finds its way, with only minor changes, into the Champions genre book.

 

Those are the only ones that came directly from me. There are many others that I noticed when I flipped through those books ("Hey, I remember when so-and-so posted that"). I believe there are one or two others that came from others in my gaming group. Honestly, the biggest response it got out of me was general irritation and a refusal to buy certain books (why do I need to buy the book when I remember half of it from the boards).

 

But no, it's not preposterous at all. I was sitting in the University of Oklahoma computer lab in Dale Hall Tower (the political science building), posting to the webrpg boards during a break between classes when I wrote the stat table that appears in the first few pages of the Champions book. Please, all-knowing Darren, do you know who wrote that table, and where they were sitting at the time?

 

1. I think everyone will agree that mysterious pregnancies are far from an unusual plot device in superhero stories.

 

2. You'll have to help me here- I don't see that plot seed in either Champions or CU. Not that it also doesn't seem like a pretty typical plot device for a robot-creating bad guy. And I wrote Giant Mechanon-Head myself. Sure, it's a nod to Brainiac, though I'm not aware his head was ever planet-sized. And comics creators I refer to always get thanked in the credits.

 

3. Umm, no. Various forms of that chart have existed since well before 1998. Several of the 4th Ed books had versions, usually written out instead of in chart form. And, as you say, this one didn't even have the same numbers for ranges as yours supposedly did. Steve wrote this one himself. At his desk, I imagine. Are you seriously suggesting we're incapable of coming up with an idea this simple and commonplace on our own?

 

Anyway, I'm happy to give you the time you need to come up with actual documentation of plagiarism. Screen shots will do nicely, or if you have printed copies you can fax me. I'm afraid I can't simply accept your word as proof when you're throwing around accusations as serious as these. Otherwise, I look forward to your public and profuse apology. dw

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

No' date=' it's the whole "converting the entire moon into a giant factory" that I thought was pretty cool. Apparently someone with DOJ thought so too.[/quote']

I recall no mention of that. My memory could be faulty though. I haven't read CU in some time. Again, it's pretty logical to have a robot live on the moon though. If I wanted to destroy all life on earth I'd live on the moon too, or a moon of Jupiter. I don't see the connection.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

You actually think you're the only person to ever have a chart listing 30 as maximum human? I'll bet if you do a search you'll find a dozen people who have posted such a chart. We've used 30 for all primary characteristics since 3E. I've probably posted a similar chart here myself. Methinks you are a little too full of your own self importance.

 

And BTW, again, it appeared in Champions Universe, not 5th Edition.

This would be a more reasonable response if it wasn't separating one example from the others. C-- is presenting a pattern. It's very true that different people can come up with the same idea or ideas but the likelihood decreases as the number of similar ideas increases.