Don't be a hater!

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He's claiming ownership of seven words (Weak' date=' Challenged, Average, Skilled, Competent, Legendary, Superhuman?) *That* seems like reaching... Nevertheless, I'll be happy to examine his proof. dw[/quote'] Ownership is a bit of an exaggeration. He complained about [my word] scattershot attribution.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Fair enough. I don't tolerate people coming into my house and accusing me of thievery' date=' and I don't tolerate it on my boards either. You're gone. dw[/quote'] That is an unfair characterization of what he said and an overreaction.

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

/darren, don't whack me.

 

I own roughly 12 books published by D0J. I've read all of them thoroghly. There is only one case where I ran across something that strongly echoed something I posted on the boards. It was from a thread that was clearly a sup research thread (doh!), 2) in a tangent topic that steve was involved in (doh!), and 3) the book had a thanks to the hero boards folks type of comment in the beginning (doh!). It sounds like FAIR USE to me! I don't think steve lifted it. I think he saw it, shook his head and laughed at the time, forgot about it, and then something similar came out of his subconscious later. I don't think it was stolen and I do not propose ownership of the (oddball) idea. I put it out there in the ether hoping someone (steve or otherwise) would find a use for it (even though it was a never-in-my-game sort of idea). My reaction wasn't "Why wasn't I credited?" My reaction was: "The zeitgeist of Von D-Man is so powerful that it seduces the unwitting subconscious of Long and drives him to obey my every whim. I ROCK, BABY!" This was my reaction because I'm a fan and not a game designer (if I were I wouldn't be putting ideas I wanted to publish for money here anyways). I'm not in competition and I'm never going to make a profit from it. Somebody should use it. If Steve is smart enough to know a Von D-Man (synonymous with "damn cool whacky idea baby, yeah!") when he sees one, then, well, it only speaks highly of his character. :smug: :wink:

[schir1964]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's sad that C-- couldn't or wouldn't realize that his method of talking to people is normally considered insulting and demeaning. He seemed to have the attitude that he could say whatever he wanted without consequence. At least that is impression I got from him from my own conversation with him. He'll continue to have difficulties if he doesn't learn a better way of communicating with people.

 

Just My Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's sad that C-- couldn't or wouldn't realize that his method of talking to people is normally considered insulting and demeaning. He seemed to have the attitude that he could say whatever he wanted without consequence. At least that is impression I got from him from my own conversation with him. He'll continue to have difficulties if he doesn't learn a better way of communicating with people.

 

Just My Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

So he can't complain about what he thinks was improper attribution?

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

So he can't complain about what he thinks was improper attribution?

When you accuse someone of plagiarism you need to be able to back it up with proof. That's a serious accusation which can have serious consequences. I think, might have, and maybe don't cut it.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

/darren, don't whack me.

 

I own roughly 12 books published by D0J. I've read all of them thoroghly. There is only one case where I ran across something that strongly echoed something I posted on the boards. It was from a thread that was clearly a sup research thread (doh!), 2) in a tangent topic that steve was involved in (doh!), and 3) the book had a thanks to the hero boards folks type of comment in the beginning (doh!). I don't think steve lifted it. I think he saw it, shook his head and laughed at the time, and then something similar came out of his subconscious later. It sounds like FAIR USE to me. I don't think it was stolen and I do not propose ownership of the (oddball) idea. I put it out there in the ether hoping someone (steve or otherwise) would find a use for it (even though it was a never-in-my-game sort of idea). My reaction wasn't "Why wasn't I credited?" My reaction was: "The zeitgeist of Von D-Man is so powerful that it seduces the unwitting subconscious of Long and drives him to obey my every whim. I ROCK, BABY!" Pretty much because I'm a fan and not a game designer. I'm not in competition and I'm never going to make a profit from it. Somebody should use it. If Steve is smart enough to know a Von D-Man (synonymous with "damn cool whacky idea baby, yeah!") when he sees one, then, well, it only speaks highly of his character. :smug: :wink:

 

Nobody owns ideas, just the practical use of them. It's polite to acknowledge where you got an idea if you know, and we *always* do. That's not what this is about. C-- accused us of "cutting and pasting" his work. That's absolutely the most serious and heinous thing you can accuse a professional writer of. I asked him to prove it or apologize, and he refused. You don't bring the p-word if you're not about to back it up. dw

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

So he can't complain about what he thinks was improper attribution?

 

Not if he's not willing to back it up. I offered to examine his proof. If he doesn't have any, he definitely should *not* make the accusation. Any more than I should randomly accuse him of breaking into my house and stealing my computer. dw

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Not if he's not willing to back it up. I offered to examine his proof. If he doesn't have any' date=' he definitely should *not* make the accusation. dw[/quote'] Ah well, I'm done here.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

When you accuse someone of plagiarism you need to be able to back it up with proof. That's a serious accusation which can have serious consequences. I think' date=' might have, and maybe don't cut it.[/quote'] He did NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism. He was accused of accusing plagiarism and then banned for not apologizing for something he didn't do. He essentially complained about not getting a nod for something brought up on the boards and he didn't think that was cool.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He did NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism. He was accused of accusing plagiarism and then banned for not apologizing for something he didn't do. He essentially complained about not getting a nod for something brought up on the boards and he didn't think that was cool.

I thought you were done here?

[schir1964]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

So he can't complain about what he thinks was improper attribution?

Sure he can.

 

But with an in your face attitude (insulting).

Selectively using terms as "word for word" and "steal/stole" when refering to ideas and concepts printed (accusatory).

 

Then when asked for proof or an apology, he wouldn't/couldn't provide proof, and flatly refused to apologize (superior attitude).

 

Why someone wouldn't think there would be a consequence to that...

I guess part of it could be cultural, but even people in different cultures learn soon enough that there will be consequences when dealing with other cultures if they offend, intentionally or not.

 

As soon as C-- made his first post, I knew he would be banned, just because of accusations combined with his personality.

 

But Again, Just My Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Nobody owns ideas' date=' just the practical use of them.[/quote']

 

Well, it wasn't a very practical idea, anyways

 

It's polite to acknowledge where you got an idea if you know' date=' and we *always* do. That's not what this is about. C-- accused us of "cutting and pasting" his work. That's absolutely the most serious and heinous thing you can accuse a professional writer of. I asked him to prove it or apologize, and he refused. You don't bring the p-word if you're not about to back it up. dw[/quote']

 

Since I'm working on a novel I want to publish right now I am sympathetic to your sensitivity on the issue. The P-Word is... unpleasant. Personally, having hung out in the crimj world for a living for a chunk of years I know most of the reasons the absolute rule of prosecution is: you build your case before you bring charges. Most of the old threads (other than the cybergames theads) are there. From my perspective, proof consists of a cite from a book and a (sufficiently similar) cite from a thread. If he's going to make the accusation he should present the cites. If he isn't going to back up the claim, he should simply withdraw the accusation. An apology (beyond that) is a personal issue between you and he that I can't really comment on (as I don't know either of you).

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He did NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism. He was accused of accusing plagiarism and then banned for not apologizing for something he didn't do. He essentially complained about not getting a nod for something brought up on the boards and he didn't think that was cool.

 

He did not use the word "plagiarism", but that is what this:

 

That may very well be the case' date=' but I believe it's closer to "Hey, that's a cool idea. [cut'][paste]"

 

means. So while he didn't use the word, he certainly made the accusation. He was unwilling to back it up with actual proof, and he was unwilling a withdraw the accusation and apologize. Seems to me that Darren's reaction was perfectly reasonable.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He did NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism. He was accused of accusing plagiarism and then banned for not apologizing for something he didn't do. He essentially complained about not getting a nod for something brought up on the boards and he didn't think that was cool.

 

"I'm saying that someone just cut and pasted it from the board." He says that explicitly in post #66, leaving out that it's basically what he's been saying all along. Since Steve, Andy and I are the only ones who could have physically done what he claims happened, he's accusing one of us. dw

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I thought you were done here?

Well, how was I supposed to know you would have another post to read when I said that.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He did not use the word "plagiarism", but that is what this:

 

 

 

means. So while he didn't use the word, he certainly made the accusation. He was unwilling to back it up with actual proof, and he was unwilling a withdraw the accusation and apologize. Seems to me that Darren's reaction was perfectly reasonable.

He doesn't own the characters. He's not accusing them of plagiarism. I assume that any thing you or I brought up on these boards about their characters could end up in a book and I would never accuse anyone of plagiarism. I would probably be a bit annoyed if there wasn't some sort of thanks and, if the Mentalla plot seed is as C-- perceives it, a line in the front of the book saying "thanks to the Hero forums posters" really doesn't seem good enough.

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

He doesn't own the characters. He's not accusing them of plagiarism. I assume that any thing you or I brought up on these boards about their characters could end up in a book and I would never accuse anyone of plagiarism. I would probably be a bit annoyed if there wasn't some sort of thanks and' date=' if the Mentalla plot seed is as C-- perceives it, a line in the front of the book saying "thanks to the Hero forums posters" really doesn't seem good enough.[/quote']

 

pla·gia·rize Pronunciation Key (plj-rz)

v. pla·gia·rized, pla·gia·riz·ing, pla·gia·riz·es

v. tr.

 

1. To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.

2. To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).

 

That is exactly what he accused HERO games of. He made the accusation without having the proof to back it up. He was asked to either provide the proof or withdraw the statement and apologize. He refused to do either. Darren didn't ban him until he made that refusal clear.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

pla·gia·rize Pronunciation Key (plj-rz)

v. pla·gia·rized, pla·gia·riz·ing, pla·gia·riz·es

v. tr.

 

1. To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.

2. To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).

This particular issue is just simply too complex for these definitions.

 

That is exactly what he accused HERO games of. He made the accusation without having the proof to back it up. He was asked to either provide the proof or withdraw the statement and apologize. He refused to do either. Darren didn't ban him until he made that refusal clear.

And his refusal is perfectly understandable just like Darren Watt's denial is perfectly understandable. Banning C-- for feeling that the Mentalla plot seed is too coincidental is just weak.

[archermoo]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

This particular issue is just simply too complex for these definitions.

 

No, actually it isn't. It is very straightforward. He accused HERO of directly copying something that he wrote (the stat chart) verbatim and claiming it as their own work rather than crediting him for it. That is exactly the definition of what plagairism is.

 

And his refusal is perfectly understandable just like Darren Watt's denial is perfectly understandable. Banning C-- for feeling that the Mentalla plot seed is too coincidental is just weak.

 

That isn't why he was banned. He was banned for accusing HERO of plagiarizing work, and then being unwilling to either provide proof or withdraw the accusation. Perfectly reasonable, and in fact expected.

[schir1964]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Hmm.... interesting...

 

Agent X,

 

I noticed that you haven't responded to my post or Darren's post.

Just out of curiosity, why?

 

Also, you seemed fixed on the use of the term "Plagarize" in others posts.

 

When people read posts, they will use the common definition of terms in order to understand what the poster is trying to convey.

 

However, when someone brings up the definiton they are using for understanding the posts, you say that definition doesn't apply.

Ok, what single word would you use that would more accurately describe the accusations that were being made by C--?

 

Furthermore, are you claiming that C-- was not trying to imply "Plagarize", even without the use of the word? Do you know this for a fact?

 

I am confused since C-- never corrected anyone during the exchange, that he was not trying to imply that, even though it was obvious that many were taking it as such.

 

Just trying to understand your line of thinking on this.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I hear in California, you can get onto a service where if a high speed chase begins on television, they notify your pager. We need something like that on here for threads like these.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

No, actually it isn't. It is very straightforward. He accused HERO of directly copying something that he wrote (the stat chart) verbatim and claiming it as their own work rather than crediting him for it. That is exactly the definition of what plagairism is.

 

 

 

That isn't why he was banned. He was banned for accusing HERO of plagiarizing work, and then being unwilling to either provide proof or withdraw the accusation. Perfectly reasonable, and in fact expected.

Wrong on both counts.

 

1. Mentalla isn't his property and he never claimed Mentalla was. He basically said he would have liked a gesture of thanks.

 

2. He was banned because Darren likens his complaint as being equivalent to plagiarism. It isn't.

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Wrong on both counts.

 

1. Mentalla isn't his property and he never claimed Mentalla was. He basically said he would have liked a gesture of thanks.

 

2. He was banned because Darren likens his complaint as being equivalent to plagiarism. It isn't.

Man, you just don't get it. When you say someone has taken your work and used it without permission or acknowledgement you're saying they plagiarized your work. That's a major no-no in the writing world. The fact that he didn't want to bring legal action has nothing to do with the accusation itself. I understand he's your friend but it was a pretty clear-cut accusation.

[atlascott]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

The Terran Empire is the mechanic doing the brake job for you. You just didn't drill down far enough. Star Hero is SUPPOSED to be a dissertation on how to build your own universe. And then they published Terran Empire for those that didn't want to.

 

 

Ok, but TE DOESNT do the brake job for you, or at least not as well as other companies do brake jobs for their systems--it is still awfully sketchy.

 

And, no offense meant, but exactly what does "You just didn't drill down far enough" supposed to mean? From context, it seems to suggest that I have some sort of deficiency or handicap such that I cannot ken the superioe value of these products? If thats the meaning, I disagree, but obviously, its your mind, believe whatever you'd like.

 

I read HERO rules.

I read (and slept through the painfully obvious and of little utility) StarHERO.

I read AW and TE, and STILL was not given a game world that is anywherer NEAR state of the art for a setting book in the industry.