How would you simulate this?

[Edsel]

In the manga that I am reading one of the weapons fires a projectile that will follow an evading foe. This is a power that, up until now, the character with the weapon did not realize it had. He stumbled upon how to get the gun to "lock" on to the target through experimentation.

 

Until now whenever he used the gun he had to get the drop on a target or else they'd dodge out of the way. If one of the enemy saw the gun fired at them they would dive for cover and avoid the shot. When the last fellow tried this he dove to off to the side and the projectile turned to follow and nailed him.

 

What mechanic do I used with a ranged weapon to negate a target's effort to dive for cover? The only thing I can think of is a hideously powerful Indirect Area Of Effect Accurate. With an area large enough to be certain a target cannot dive far enough away. Is there a more "elegant" solution that I am overlooking?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Add a linked Mind Control or Entangle effect with appropriate SFX?

 

I also don't think a hideously powerful Indirect would be inappropriate, as long as it does what you want it to do.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Why indirect? it's not like you can fire it through walls, i think your idea of an area of effect is the right way to go. Maybe linked to "luck useable as an attack" to reroll the target's dex check so that they fail, to simulate being hit, as they dodge.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

You've actually hit on a pretty decent solution already.

 

The UNTIL Superpower Database has a homing attack power listed in it, but it was extremely powerful...the sort of thing that a master villain might build, to my way of thinking. If you can get a copy, you might be able to reconstruct a more affordable version to simulate this gun.

[Edsel]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Why indirect? it's not like you can fire it through walls' date=' i think your idea of an area of effect is the right way to go. Maybe linked to "luck useable as an attack" to reroll the target's dex check so that they fail, to simulate being hit, as they dodge.[/quote']

 

I was thinking indirect incase the target tries to dive behind an obstacle or around a corner. That way the missile could still follow.

[Edsel]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

You've actually hit on a pretty decent solution already.

 

The UNTIL Superpower Database has a homing attack power listed in it, but it was extremely powerful...the sort of thing that a master villain might build, to my way of thinking. If you can get a copy, you might be able to reconstruct a more affordable version to simulate this gun.

 

I've got a copy of that book around here somewhere, I'll check it out.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I've got a copy of that book around here somewhere' date=' I'll check it out.[/quote']

I would say a little Indirect and some CSLs for OCV. That can make it awfully difficult to Dodge or Block. Dive for Cover won't work simply because there is nowhere to dive that will negate the attack (the Indirect part).

[Onyxclaw]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Dive for Cover won't work simply because there is nowhere to dive that will negate the attack (the Indirect part).

 

actually indirect only keeps obstacles from being in the way of the attack. I'm pretty sure that dive for cover, especially on a non AoE attack would still work. Since it actually represents just getting out of the way of the attack, not actually getting behind cover, and can be any kind of movement even flight or teleportation. Just cause the fireball comes from behind you when your enemy is in front doesn't mean you can't get out of the way....

 

All that they'd have to do is make the dex roll and it would miss. OCV CSLs would be helpful for making sure you hit, but again diving for cover causes a problem. You need to get them to fail dex rolls....

 

I think roy might have been on the right track

 

But then maybe there's something I'm missing about the DFC manuver

[Eosin]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Since this is for Gantz (and gun points really don't matter) - look at the Special Powers in the back of the USPD and find the Omega Beam type attack. It is built as a summon. Nasty little critter.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

In the manga that I am reading one of the weapons fires a projectile that will follow an evading foe.

 

Area Effect, Selective, with the Limitation "maximum of one target" (-1/2). The target can Dodge and increase their DCV. They can also Dive For Cover, but unless they dive out of the "targeting area" of the attack, it follows them.

[SirViss]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I would just like to know a few things:

 

1. Is this attack just supposed to be undodgeable, or just VERY difficult to dodge?
   
2. How far can anyone Dive For Cover in the game?
   

 

An undodgeable attack isn't (and IMO shouldn't) be supported by the Hero System. but if you want to make it very hard to dodge, I have a suggestion. 2 caveats:

1. This is probably going to be too pricy for a player if they have to pay points for it.
   
2. This WILL need GM permission either way, since I saw part of the build on these boards and maybe in the FAQs. (I'm too lazy to search myself )
   

 

Just make the attack an area effect with and augment the area large enough that noone can (reasonably) be able to dive out of the area. Remember that you can only DfC up to ½ you move (unless you have Flying Dodge from UMA). Make the AoE Selective and put the limitation "Only to hit the person Locked on". To make it harder to get out of the way, make the AoE Conforming so that it will flow around most obstacles. Now for the GM permission part, buy on the AoE (maybe as a linked Naked Advantage) another AoE [1 hex; Accurate], to reduce his DCV to 3 (before dodging).

 

You should buy Range PSLs with the limitation "Only for the Selective attack", so as to not suffer the Range Penalties when rolling to hit after you have hit the hex for the AoE.

 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I may have confused myself, as I wrote this.

 

Edit: Ack! I took WAY too long to reply. BBlackmoor replied something in similar vein, while I was working out my idea.

 

Oh well...

[Susano]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

When I saw that scene, I was thinking No Range Modifier and possibly Indirect. Also recall, there is the scene where the lock has been made, and the gun is pointed way off to the right. He pulls the trigger, and the shot still hits home. That is Indirect with a stack of OCV levels to counteract Dodges and Diving for Cover.

[Edsel]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

When I saw that scene' date=' I was thinking No Range Modifier and possibly Indirect. Also recall, there is the scene where the lock has been made, and the gun is pointed way off to the right. He pulls the trigger, and the shot still hits home. That is Indirect with a stack of OCV levels to counteract Dodges and Diving for Cover.[/quote']

 

That is kind of what I thought too. But Dive for Cover, if sucessful, will automatically negate a non-area effect attack. BTW there is a latter scene where it becomes clear that the X-Gun also has the lock-on capability, no DoC in that scene just a clear indication that it can lock-on.

 

The Nega-Beam construct from the UNTIL Superpowers Database that has been suggested, would do everyting I have in mind but its a pretty complex built and costs over 1500 points. I think I will try to build it using an Area Effect, Selective, with the Limitation "maximum of one target" (-1/2), similar to what bblackmoor suggested. I like the solution that Roy_The_Ruthles came up with also. I may build two variants and see which can achieve the desired effect more cheaply.

 

For those who might be curious this problem was spawned from the Gantz Hero thread.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I think I will try to build it using an Area Effect' date=' Selective, with the Limitation "maximum of one target" (-1/2), similar to what [i']bblackmoor[/i] suggested. I like the solution that Roy_The_Ruthles came up with also. I may build two variants and see which can achieve the desired effect more cheaply.

 

I'm glad I could help.

[CraterMaker]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

It sounds like there is a conflict between the "dive for cover" rules and the Genre you want to simulate.. ergo, change the dive for cover rules to fit the genre.

 

-CraterMaker

[pinecone]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I seem to remember a power called AE: 1 Hex; accurate that was a very good seeker power...the whole follows you unerringly becomes special effects...and unlike in the movies, special effects is cheap! Add in Neg levels with dive for cover at range and I think you're home and it most likely won't break the bank...other wise I don't see why you couldn't have AE: Radius ; accurate with a boat load of extra area, maybe with "conforming" (from Fantasy hero I think) and get there also.....

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I like the idea of using it as a summon, where the shot is actually a creature. Maybe some variant of "resistance" to dive for cover? (ie giving a penalty to anyone trying to use it), That's probably not the way to go though

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I like the idea of using it as a summon' date=' where the shot is actually a creature. Maybe some variant of "resistance" to dive for cover? (ie giving a penalty to anyone trying to use it), That's probably not the way to go though[/quote']

 

Actually, this is the only way to simulate some things in action fiction, such as the missile which misses once, turns around and comes back, and essentially engages in an aerial dogfight with a character or aircraft.

[Edsel]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I seem to remember a power called AE: 1 Hex; accurate that was a very good seeker power...the whole follows you unerringly becomes special effects...and unlike in the movies' date=' special effects is cheap! Add in Neg levels with dive for cover at range and I think you're home and it most likely won't break the bank...other wise I don't see why you couldn't have AE: Radius ; accurate with a boat load of extra area, maybe with "conforming" (from Fantasy hero I think) and get there also.....[/quote']

The data on AoE accurate is on page 248 of 5ER. It can still be easly negated by a Dive for Cover and cannot follow the target.

 

If negative skill levels are fired a character he can still dive for cover to avoid them before they have a chance to affect him.

 

What I could do, however, is make the lock-on of the weapon another attack. This would be (as you suggest) negative skill levels with Dive for Cover and the attack would be bought as fully invisible so the target doesn't see it comming and dive to avoid the lock-on. Then when the primary attack is fired in the next phase the enemy could still try to Dive for Cover and when they failed the SFX would be defined as if the attack swerved to follow them. I think that would be a legal construct.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

Hmmm...to make it "undodgeable"...

 

How about AoE 1 Hex , Megascale , Selective, AoE 1 hex (accurate), Megascale, One target only, No Range?

 

When you fire a shot, you select one target within 1 km (or some smaller version of +1/4 Megascale). He is the target, with 1 hex AoE Accurate applied to the roll to hit him. He needs to dive 1 km away to avoid being hit, although he can still improve his DCV from 3 by Dodging.

 

[A variant of the AoE Radius, Selective, AoE Accurate approach.]

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

How about AoE 1 Hex ' date=' Megascale , Selective, AoE 1 hex (accurate), Megascale, One target only, No Range?[/quote']

 

That would work as well as my idea (which was Area Effect, Selective, with the Limitation "maximum of one target"), but if you take the "Area Of Effect: One Hex Accurate" Advantage, you do not get to have a Limitation for "one target only". That's already part of the "One Hex Accurate" Advantage. (That may, in fact, be a point in your suggestion's favor.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

That would work as well as my idea (which was Area Effect' date=' Selective, with the Limitation "maximum of one target"), but if you take the "Area Of Effect: One Hex Accurate" Advantage, you do not get to have a Limitation for "one target only". That's already part of the "One Hex Accurate" Advantage. (That may, in fact, be a point in your suggestion's favor.)[/quote']

 

I thought there was an old FAQ post that said if you had a Selective AoE already, you could apply 1 hex area to pick hexes instead of targets, or 1 hex - Accurate to hit each target at DCV 3. That would implyu the construct could hit multiples (but maybe I should shell out the +1 for AoE radius in that case, instead of the initial blast being AoE 1 hex area).

[prestidigitator]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

actually indirect only keeps obstacles from being in the way of the attack. I'm pretty sure that dive for cover, especially on a non AoE attack would still work. Since it actually represents just getting out of the way of the attack, not actually getting behind cover, and can be any kind of movement even flight or teleportation. Just cause the fireball comes from behind you when your enemy is in front doesn't mean you can't get out of the way....

 

All that they'd have to do is make the dex roll and it would miss. OCV CSLs would be helpful for making sure you hit, but again diving for cover causes a problem. You need to get them to fail dex rolls....

 

I think roy might have been on the right track

 

But then maybe there's something I'm missing about the DFC manuver

I don't think DFC normally works at all against a non-AoE attack. However, I occaisionally allow it when there is nearby cover that would break the line of attack. Indirect would naturally be able to counter this.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I don't think DFC normally works at all against a non-AoE attack. However' date=' I occaisionally allow it when there is nearby cover that would break the line of attack. Indirect would naturally be able to counter this.[/quote']

 

"Dive for cover is most useful for avoiding attacks that cover a large area, such as explosions and Area of Effect attacks. However, characters can use it to avoid regular (non-area-affecting) attacks as well. ... If a character successfully dieves for cover this way, the non-area attack automatically misses;" (emphasis mine) p. 394

 

I think using mega scale to make it undodgeable is a bit cheap, esp with indirect because that means it can go through things like buildings which is not exactly how i imagine it (unless it's some sort of desolid gun), i like the idea of using luck to make people fail their dive rolls, so you can avoid it for a while.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: How would you simulate this?

 

I don't think DFC normally works at all against a non-AoE attack. However' date=' I occaisionally allow it when there is nearby cover that would break the line of attack. Indirect would naturally be able to counter this.[/quote']

 

Yes, it does. Even if the rules didn't say specifically that it does (H5R, p. 393), ordinary common sense should lead one to the same conclusion. If you can leap aside to avoid the explosion of a grenade, you can certainly leap aside to avoid being hit by a tiny little bullet.

 

After all, if you are going to use an entire action and voluntarily stand there with your pants around your ankles (figuratively speaking) until your next action and risk failing a Dex roll and getting hit anyway, by gosh you ought to be able to avoid getting hit if you do succeed at that Dex roll.