Keeping them distant

[Doc Democracy]

I have been trying to think of a mechanic that would emulate the use of a long weapon to keep an opponent at range and prevent them from using a shorter weapon to attack.

 

My current thinking is a special grab manouever (only to prevent closing movement) The requirements would be a long weapon and a successful grab would allow weapon damage to be inflicted. The best thing about it is that a strong enough opponent would be able to throw the weapon aside and close.

 

I think that the manoever would give 1/2 DCV - if someone did close the long weapon wielder is in bother...

 

Anyone else given some thought to this?

 

 

Doc

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Are you referring to things like knife vs sword, or actual 'reach' weapons like polearms vs swords? *confused*

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I was thinking of reach weapons like polearms or spears but I guess it could work wherever one weapon was significantly longer. Would it make a difference?

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

hmm, that sounds like a feasable option. I had tried to make something simular for shild/pike walling, but I used force wall.

 

For the tower shields it was the denfense of the shield, and the length of the wall was determined by the number of users.

 

For long weapons I had a force wall effect with the limitation only to stop movement toward user (so bullets and other weapons could pass through but the oponent's body it self couldn't), restricted shape, cannot englobe, range limitations, no endurance, etc. with a trigger, where trying to break the force wall and failing in one attempt (so, tryign to move past the end) triggered the damage of the weapon. It worked ok. Though your grab might work well too.

[Curufea]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

In the case of spear - I'd add push to the damage it causes. Damage stopped by armour or shield would be classed as STR for the purposes of pushing the opponent back. You could also have a push maneuver, where the attacker can use their own strength in addition, but the strength used doesn't cause damage (perhaps it would be a normal, rather than killing).

 

If you get enough STR to lift someone, I'd say you could push them back a hex.

 

Possibly you could also Brace in defence - although that usually only affects the OCV, the description matches. Expand Brace to include +5 STR only to offset being pushed back. A bit like knockback resistance, but on a smaller scale (ie the STR is taken from the attacker's calculation to work out whether or not they push you back one inch)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

hmm' date=' that sounds like a feasable option. I had tried to make something simular for shild/pike walling, but I used force wall.[/quote']

 

I considered force wall at the start and I think that it probably works well for shield walls but for one on one combat it just didn't feel right.

 

I also wanted the user of the reach weapon to _have_ to succeed to keep his opponent at range and then be able to damage him if he did so, without many extra dice rolls. With a force wall the opponent has to do enough damage rather than do enough manouevering to get in close.

 

Like I said with a shield wall the dynamics change and the need is to smash through the defence rather than dance round it...

 

 

Doc

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I considered force wall at the start and I think that it probably works well for shield walls but for one on one combat it just didn't feel right.

 

I also wanted the user of the reach weapon to _have_ to succeed to keep his opponent at range and then be able to damage him if he did so, without many extra dice rolls. With a force wall the opponent has to do enough damage rather than do enough manouevering to get in close.

 

Like I said with a shield wall the dynamics change and the need is to smash through the defence rather than dance round it...

 

 

Doc

 

it's hard to dance around a spearman

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

it's hard to dance around a spearman

 

I suppose you could just do what Achilles (Brad Pitt) and use a direct approach...

[MisterVimes]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I was thinking of reach weapons like polearms or spears but I guess it could work wherever one weapon was significantly longer. Would it make a difference?

 

Well, I looked at this one myself. Polearms are effective at range, but you can get by them and when you do the polearm fighter is screwed.

 

I usually have 1" on stretching (persistant, always one) to simulate the length. To simulate the difficulty of getting inside the weapon... you might give the weilder a +1 DCV (or more if you are generous).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Well, I looked at this one myself. Polearms are effective at range, but you can get by them and when you do the polearm fighter is screwed.

 

I usually have 1" on stretching (persistant, always one) to simulate the length. To simulate the difficulty of getting inside the weapon... you might give the weilder a +1 DCV (or more if you are generous).

 

I had considered the extra DCV but it made the whole distance thing too abstract and probably takes away from the need for the polearm fighter to abandon his reach weapon when someone gets inside his reach.

 

I was looking for ways to reflect that, at distance the polearm is the better weapon but close up it's nigh useless.

 

 

Doc

[MisterVimes]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I had considered the extra DCV but it made the whole distance thing too abstract and probably takes away from the need for the polearm fighter to abandon his reach weapon when someone gets inside his reach.

 

I was looking for ways to reflect that, at distance the polearm is the better weapon but close up it's nigh useless.

 

 

Doc

 

Since this is Fantasy Hero and no points are paid, you may have to resort to a ruling to address this.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Since this is Fantasy Hero and no points are paid' date=' you may have to resort to a ruling to address this.[/quote']

 

I guess I could charge points for the manouevre to reflect the skill necessary to keep someone at bay using a large pointy stick.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Even if an opponent has a spear and you have only a knife, you can still run in and attack them. You're just probably going to get skewered. I would say that if both opponnets are ready, the guy with the longer weapon gets to go first. Let him use a Cover maneuver. You can even give him an OCV bonus if you feel it's necessary. Then the knife guy can try to attack, but he takes an automatic hit if he does. Most people (not heroes, of course) would need really good provocation to take the hit. At least they would need to make an EGO roll.

 

Keith "You go first" Curtis

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

the other thng is that polearms *are* effective at short range, they have a spike on the other end for just such reasons. I've seen a polearm fighter take down a sword and shield user at close range by catching him in the chest with that spike...

 

 

Of course being a fencer and fighting in the SCA isn't exactly the same as what you're trying to simulate..but just so's you know

[Old Man]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

One or two versions of FH ago, the reach rules worked as follows: The longer weapon gets a +1 OCV and the shorter weapon a -1 OCV. This continues until the shorter weapon scores a hit. After that, the bonus/penalty are reversed, only resetting if the longer weapon wielder is able to extend to a range of 3 hexes for a phase. (3 hexes because L-length weapons used to have a range of 2 hexes.)

 

I can't remember ever actually using this arrangement.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Old Man has the right of it, although in the 5th Edition, I think the penalty is higher (its in The Ultimate Martial Artist, and probably in Fantasy Hero, but my UMA is in Florida and I'm in California. DOH!)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

the other thng is that polearms *are* effective at short range, they have a spike on the other end for just such reasons. I've seen a polearm fighter take down a sword and shield user at close range by catching him in the chest with that spike...

 

 

Of course being a fencer and fighting in the SCA isn't exactly the same as what you're trying to simulate..but just so's you know

 

Just FYI darlin', from a non SCA fighter type... Buttspikes really aren't all that useful as defensive weapons. The main purpose they served historically was to help "lock" the polearm in place when it was being braced.

 

There has always been something kinda funny about SCA combat in my mind...

Why wear full armor designed to stop or deflect most weaponry of the time period then adopt a set of combat rules that effectively treats combatants as if they were unarmored? Manyof the most effective fighting styles I've seen used by champion SCA heavy fighters are really no longer even historical... they are basically a new martial art, designed with the rules of SCA combat in mind. I've done a fair bit of fighting live steel in full feild plate, using blunts, and I've been hit so hard my armor was dented in and I was literally THROWN off my feet (knockback anyone?) and I took more actual "damage" from hitting the ground than I did from the blow.

 

For my .02, I've found that the above mentioned weapon reach rules work fairly well for most FH combats, at least most skirmish style fights. I do think that a few more rules to help show how truly NASTY formation fighting can be wouldn't be amiss tho. I've managed to help break a polarm line 3 ranks deep before... but ONLY because we were using another formation explicitly designed to break pike blocks (a wedge, to be specific). And if they had had a forlorn hope in place to blunt our charge, we probably would've been hosed.

If nothing else,there should be an automatic presence attack with some wicked bonuses involved when you're trying to work up the gall to charge a properly spaced hedge of pikes... its like charging into a cuisinart.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

in multiple combat yes, but I tell you what...period one on one fighting...if you're oponent is on the ground crying and the marshal is yelling hold you're probubly close. One on one you'll pull anything that might work...But I would agree that pike's/polearms/spears ar VERY dangerous in combination and more so set with tower shield walls. And that it is this that they were designed for anyway...that and taking out charges ^^

 

I myself tend to stick with archery and fencing, which is much simpler in my opinion. And yes I understand the whole "fighting like we aren;t armoured" thingy...but Most of the time a heavies challenge ends in dented armour, people thrown to the ground, and some broken bones. And we don't use steel weapons.

 

I definately agree with the intimidating aspect of the pike wall. Perhapse characters who wish to charge a well fortified pike wall will have to make an ego roll at a penalty?

[Vondy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Would you consider fiddling with the cover mechanic? Because that's effectively what the person with the polearm is doing: covering you. You have to open yourself to attack to get close enough to lauch your own (unless you have a modified bind manuever or some such).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Would you consider fiddling with the cover mechanic? Because that's effectively what the person with the polearm is doing: covering you. You have to open yourself to attack to get close enough to lauch your own (unless you have a modified bind manuever or some such).

 

Hmm. I hadn't considered 'cover'. It does however open the game up to the ability of players to know that they are unlikely to be taken down with one blow.

 

I was thinking that using the basics of the grab manouever would be best - it restricts movement of the victim (if the attack is successful) and allows damage to be done. Thus - keep them distant - if successful restricts the movement and does damage - very similar in basics.

 

If the attack is unsuccessful then the opponent is not kept at a distance and can attack while the polearm wielder remains at 1/2 DCV.

 

Willing to consider anything though...

 

Doc

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Would you consider fiddling with the cover mechanic? Because that's effectively what the person with the polearm is doing: covering you. You have to open yourself to attack to get close enough to lauch your own (unless you have a modified bind manuever or some such).

 

BRILLIAN!

 

The Cover mechanic should work perfectly for this.

 

Effectively, the character with the Long(er) weapon gets the option of making an "attack" which keeps the character at bay. If the character with the shorter weapon attempts to close for an attack, the character with the longer weapon gets a free attack (they are effectively holding their phase). If that attack misses or fails to do significant damage, then the character with the short weapon may continue with their own attack.

 

Of course, the character with the Long weapon must be able to concentrate on their attacker...if they are attacked by a 3rd party or are somehow distracted, then the character with the short weapon has a chance to attack safely. The distracted character must succeed in a Perception roll (at a penalty decided by the GM based on the nature of the distraction) to notice their opponent closing in.

 

How's that?

[The Monster]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I have yet to see a good "at bay" rule, and I've been looking since me and my high-school buds made up some tincan armor and wooden weapons and did some crude, slow sparring with them. Bigges thing I noticed was that, if the target can keep the long pointy stick pointed at you, it just seems like moving to within sword-hack range is a Bad Idea. You'd have to knock it aside (Disarm maneuver?) or trick him somehow (PRE/Sleight of Hand?).

 

That said, I did use a pike formation in an RPG once, and it scared the bejeezus out of the players - they danced around it until the pikemen's boss was squished, so they decided to retire (mercs - go figure). Now, this wasn't Hero (Dragonquest, in fact), but it seems ot me the same sort of thing applies.

Basically, what I did was rule that specifically long (i.e., >7 feet) weapons could be used to attack a foe 2 or 3 hexes out, depending on length (the whole idea of adding Range or Reach, right?) - so if you have two or three ranks of pikers, anyone coming in their front will get attacked two or three times before they can even try to bash heads. In Hero, that may mean the pikers spend a lot of time holding actions, but I don't have a problem with that -- or you could allow them to abort to Set vs Charge, lowering their DCV but boosting damage.

 

This doesn't really answer the one-on-one issue, I know, but the rules dicussed above (wit the OCV/DCV reversible penalties) seem like they should work (I admit it's never cropped up in my Hero games so far).

[Markdoc]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

Like most combat-related things, I take a simple approach. Spearmen historically have been good

a) in massed formation and

when advancing cautiously or on the defensive.

 

In contrast, when the formation was broken, they tended to lose to fighters armed with individual combat weapons. Wild screaming charges are mostly for sword/ axe or lance types.

 

I therefore use no special rules. Polearm users - including spears/pikes have extra reach already built in. When standing on the defensive - ie: held action - they automatically get to strike first, since they can hit their opponent before he reaches them, when on the advance, spearmen go forward at half their normal move: ie: they go: half move, hold attack action. And, since as noted, longspearmen or pikemen in massed formation can stab over the ranks in front, that means the possibility of being stabbed by multiple opponents, not just from rear ranks, but also possibly from the sides, giving the possibility of multiple attacker bonuses.

 

That simulates the scary effect of massed pointy objects, well enough for me. Mounted lancers can use the same rules against opponents without reach weapons to hit first, making them, in turn, scary to opponents with short weapons.

 

My experience - both personal and observational - has been that in one on one conflicts weapon reach really doesn't make that much difference: the guy with the longer weapon often gets to hit first, but he can only keep his opponent at bay if the opponent is too intimidated to commit to an attack (with consequent risk of getting hit) - the rules for extra reach and the OCV penalty on longer weapons seems to simulate that adequately.

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

My experience - both personal and observational - has been that in one on one conflicts weapon reach really doesn't make that much difference: the guy with the longer weapon often gets to hit first, but he can only keep his opponent at bay if the opponent is too intimidated to commit to an attack (with consequent risk of getting hit) - the rules for extra reach and the OCV penalty on longer weapons seems to simulate that adequately.

 

I am quite happy to use this as a generic type thing. But if I have a hero who wants to keep someone at bay - out of reach using a reach weapon I don't have anything to hand to provide.

 

I think a lot of the personal and observational experience people have brought is in non-lethal combat (I hope a safe assumption!) I think there is a much higher chance in lethal combat that people will be more intimidated to commit to an attack - a good spearman should be able to delay someone - a hero should be able to hold someone off with good use of their reach weapon.

 

(All of those shoulds come from what I want to be true in my swords and sorcery stories)

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Keeping them distant

 

I think a lot of the personal and observational experience people have brought is in non-lethal combat (I hope a safe assumption!) I think there is a much higher chance in lethal combat that people will be more intimidated to commit to an attack - a good spearman should be able to delay someone - a hero should be able to hold someone off with good use of their reach weapon.

 

(All of those shoulds come from what I want to be true in my swords and sorcery stories)

 

Sure, my point was that the only way to really "keep someone off" is by making them scared to attack. In real life, it's not like you are pushing them away with the pointy end. You menace them with "try to come close enough to hit me and I will stick you" - spiced up with advancing on them and giving the same message.

 

If they actually DO decide to have a go at you, then either:

a) you stick them or

they're inside your weapon reach.

 

It's not like they try to attack but somehow can't manage to get close. In the situation you describe, I'd adopt von D-Man's suggestion where the hero "covers" his opponent.

 

The simplest solution would be to GM it, using the already existing rules - if an NPC is faced with an opponent who is clearly ready and has reach, then he may well be disinclined to run onto the end of the waiting pointy thing and instead dance about, waiting for an opening, trying to distract the opponent, calling for reinforcements, etc.

 

In other words, play sensible NPCs like real people. That's not unreasonable in a swords and sorcery setting where a lightly-armoured attacker is unlikely to want to take the chance of taking a 1 1/2d6 HKA.

 

It also suits the genre - instead of charging the waiting spear, you hook a bar stool up with one foot and throw it at them, hoping to score enough stun to let you close, while they recover.

 

If, on the other hand the player wants a cinematic move specific to them, then I'd use a version of the "force back" fighting stunt from the Valdorian age source book - basically a triggered 1" running usable against others. You could simply adopt this as combat move that anyone can use, but that I suspect that could get tedious very fast.

 

cheers, Mark