Compound Power or HtH Attack?

[crayadder]

Greetings,

 

I have a question about the proper way to build a power. In the community's infinite wisdom, which approach, if any or both, is a valid construct.

 

Build #1

battallion: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (110 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

 

Build #2

Battallion 2: (Total: 70 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4) for up to 75 Active Points of Strength (56 Active Points) (Real Cost: 56) plus Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (14 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (Real Cost: 9)

 

I am just looking for the validity of each power. Thanks for the help.

 

Crayadder

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Greetings,

 

I have a question about the proper way to build a power. In the community's infinite wisdom, which approach, if any or both, is a valid construct.

 

Build #1

battallion: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (110 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

 

Build #2

Battallion 2: (Total: 70 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4) for up to 75 Active Points of Strength (56 Active Points) (Real Cost: 56) plus Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (14 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (Real Cost: 9)

 

I am just looking for the validity of each power. Thanks for the help.

 

Crayadder

 

It's a little hard to judge the two builds against each other without knowing what the special effect of what you are trying to accomplish with this build is.

 

Can you elaborate some more?

 

HM

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

It's a one against many power, where the hero can wade into a group of villains and take them out due to his incredible skill in hand to hand combat. It basically simulates the hero being swamped, but being able to fight off all comers, even if he is attacked multiple times in one phase.

 

Just so you know, I am not looking for a different power to make it work, unless both constructs are illegal of course , but I am trying to determine if Battallion 2 is a valid build. I know Battalllion 1 is, but my friend built the same power with the other and I wanted to know if it was legal since it costs so much less.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

It's a one against many power, where the hero can wade into a group of villains and take them out due to his incredible skill in hand to hand combat. It basically simulates the hero being swamped, but being able to fight off all comers, even if he is attacked multiple times in one phase.

 

Just so you know, I am not looking for a different power to make it work, unless both constructs are illegal of course , but I am trying to determine if Battallion 2 is a valid build. I know Battalllion 1 is, but my friend built the same power with the other and I wanted to know if it was legal since it costs so much less.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

I don't think the 2nd build is legal since the main portion of the power is built as a Naked Advantage on STR. According to 5ER page 244-245 Naked Advantages are normally considered Instant even if the base power they are applied to is Constant. I would at least enforce the purchase of the Continuous Advantage on the 75 active points of Damage Shield to make this legal.

 

I don't understand the purpose of the extra 1d6 Damage Shield.

 

Anyway, one of the suggested rules to fall back on as a GM in these cases is to require the higher costing build when ever two different construction methods that produce the same results cost different amounts.

 

HM

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Greetings,

 

I have a question about the proper way to build a power. In the community's infinite wisdom, which approach, if any or both, is a valid construct.

 

Build #1

battallion: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (110 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

 

 

Crayadder

 

I would think this is the correct way. Although a strait EB with same SFX is likely more legal.

 

I am also stealing it for my longterm martial aritst Blackcat, so thanks!

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

My pleasure Lord Mhoram, though I must give credit to the concept of the power, if not the build, to a fellow gamer in my group who is Raithmor on these forums.

 

Hyper-man - As to the extra 1d6 HTH, it is because Raithmor wanted estra dice than what his strength of 75 gave him. thanks for clarifying the naked advantage for me, I was pretty sure that was how it worked.

 

Damon

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Like was said before Energy Blast is the power used for this purpose. Clunky I know but Damage Shield turns ranged attacks into no range attacks that target everyone that touches the character.

 

Hawksmoor

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I fail to see why it has to be EB. The write-up indicates clearly that it can be either non-ranged or ranged with the statement "If the Attack Power is normally Ranged..." - page 163 of 5th Edition. Is there a rule of thumb stating when a DS should be built with a ranged attack power over a non-ranged one?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I fail to see why it has to be EB. The write-up indicates clearly that it can be either non-ranged or ranged with the statement "If the Attack Power is normally Ranged..." - page 163 of 5th Edition. Is there a rule of thumb stating when a DS should be built with a ranged attack power over a non-ranged one?

 

Unless FRED has changed it (?) I believe you're correct. There's also a write-up on the same page of an HKA Damage Shield.

 

I'd say it's a pretty clever effect.

 

bigdamnhero

"This is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot."

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Thanks Hero, that's very big of you.... I had to say it !!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Thanks Hero' date=' that's very big of you.... I had to say it !![/quote']

 

Ggggrrrrroooooaaaaannnnn!!!

 

Cheers,

bigdamnhero

"I said it was our only chance -- I did not say it was a good one."

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I fail to see why it has to be EB. The write-up indicates clearly that it can be either non-ranged or ranged with the statement "If the Attack Power is normally Ranged..." - page 163 of 5th Edition. Is there a rule of thumb stating when a DS should be built with a ranged attack power over a non-ranged one?

 

Thats just it.

 

It doesn't have to be Energy Blast. Thats just how such things were written up in the old days and there's a lot of people who have been playing "champions" for so long, they're used to and tend to stick to "the old ways"

 

Hand to Hand with Damage Sheild is perfectly legal for what you want to do.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I think the Naked advantage approach is the way you want to go. In fact, you should probably Link the 1D6 HA/Damage Shield to the Naked Advantage, since the Naked advantage is going to be the more expensive power. Thus, whenever your character "activates" his STR Damage Sheild, the extra 1D6 kicks in as well. It can't be used on its own, only when your character goes into his Counter-Attack posture....

[Zed-F]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I agree that the HA damage shield is the legal construct.

 

One other way to do this legally is to look into the Trigger advantage. You don't need continuous or damage shield but you do need a quite high level of Trigger, such as:

 

32 Batallion: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (80 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

 

The trigger is coming into HTH contact with an opponent. This saves +3/4 worth of advantages. Watch out for END costs; as it's not continuous it takes END for each attack. Of course you can take reduced END cost to help with that (you still come out slightly ahead on AP even with 0 END cost.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Another way to write the above power is by taking the Triggered HtH attack power and designating the Trigger "on a successful Block"

 

That way, each time you successfully block an opponent, you get to counter-attack for free. (just gotta make sure the Trigger auto-resets as in the above write-up)

 

This can simulate many Jet Li films where he wades into a crowd of opponents, blocking and counter-attacking at will.

 

Another variation on this ability uses an Area of Effect (Radius) Hand to Hand attack power.

 

HtH Attack: 8D6 (40) Area of Effect, Radius (+1) Selective (+1/4) 90 Active

-- Hand Attack Lim (-1/2) Full Phase (-1/2) Real Cost 45pts

 

With this power the character can attack anyone you choose in a 4" radius from where he is standing. The SFX is that the character wades through the opponents lashing out at them. Full Phase limitation is there to represent the fact that the character is using movement as part of the attack and thus cannot perform an actual "half-move" the same phase he uses this attack. Selective is necessary to avoid hitting comrades and innocents and forces the character to make an attack roll against every opponent in the AE.

 

Since it is an Advantaged Hand Attack, the character could use up to 40pts of STR to add damage to this attack, thus increasing the attack to 16D6 damage...the exact damage level you were striving for. Expensive? At 45 real points, absolutely. Effective? As hell. It'll give your GM fits, I garuntee you My suggestion? If its too expensive, try dropping the damage level to 5D6 or 6D6. That should drop the real cost to 28 and 34 Real points respectively, but decreases the maximum damage levels to 10D6 and 12D6. Also, on the lower powered versions, you could add X2 End cost limitation to reduce the real-cost even further. The lower powered versions won't really threaten a Super-heroic level Brick, but will absolutely lay-out characters with less emphasis on defense, most especially minion type characters (thats what it's best used for)

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

The trigger idea is very cool. That'll work for a lot of effects . As for going the way of the naked modifier, I would have thought that because both constructs have the same effect that you have to buy the HTH/DS combo.

 

Damon

[Raithmor]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

This power is to be used in a 100 pt MP thus created in a compound power. Linked connot be used unless the HTH is out side the MP. Cheaper to do this as a compound power within a MP.

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

It has come to my attention that damage shield can only be put on Attack Powers. Does naked modifier bypass this restriction? If not then Battalion 2 should be illegal by default, since Strength is not an Attack power.

 

Another realization hit me. The second build would actually necessitate two separate rolls against the targets defenses - 14d6 with a 70 STR and 2d6 for the HTH.

 

Thoughts?

[Agent X]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I don't think the 2nd build is legal since the main portion of the power is built as a Naked Advantage on STR. According to 5ER page 244-245 Naked Advantages are normally considered Instant even if the base power they are applied to is Constant. I would at least enforce the purchase of the Continuous Advantage on the 75 active points of Damage Shield to make this legal.

 

I don't understand the purpose of the extra 1d6 Damage Shield.

 

Anyway, one of the suggested rules to fall back on as a GM in these cases is to require the higher costing build when ever two different construction methods that produce the same results cost different amounts.

 

HM

Which is a Meta-Rule that is ridiculously easy to show the holes in as you can almost always make a construct cost more. I like the idea of making the power in a way that actually represents in cost how powerful it roughly is.

[Zed-F]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

I'm not a fan of that meta-rule either. I prefer to use accuracy of effect, elegance of construction, and/or cost reflecting utility as more appropriate guidelines.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Technically you don't need the Naked Advantage at all. Your full Str applies to the HA, no matter what Advantages it has (including Damage Shield). This is one of the unbalancing quirks of HA.

 

That's the way the official system works. I'm not saying I like it.

 

EDIT: BTW, the way I use it is that Str can only double the HA at most. When there are any damage-related Advantages on the HA, that's just what makes sense to me.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

BTW' date=' the way I [i']use[/i] it is that Str can only double the HA at most. When there are any damage-related Advantages on the HA, that's just what makes sense to me.

 

Ditto. Wasn't that the rule in...I'm thinking 3rd edition, but I'm guessing here?

 

bigdamnhero

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Technically you don't need the Naked Advantage at all. Your full Str applies to the HA, no matter what Advantages it has (including Damage Shield). This is one of the unbalancing quirks of HA.

 

That's the way the official system works. I'm not saying I like it.

 

EDIT: BTW, the way I use it is that Str can only double the HA at most. When there are any damage-related Advantages on the HA, that's just what makes sense to me.

 

Actually, that is the current rule in 5ER (and 5E) page 408.

-the character can only use his STR up to the unmodified Active Point value of the HA

"Unmodified" means the Active Points without applying any Advantages.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Which is a Meta-Rule that is ridiculously easy to show the holes in as you can almost always make a construct cost more. I like the idea of making the power in a way that actually represents in cost how powerful it roughly is.

 

Just a different way of arriving at the same conclusion. I don't use that meta-rule very often myself but since I didn't thouroghly reverse engineer both builds for comparison It seemed like an appropriate suggestion to keep in mind.

 

HM

[crayadder]

Re: Compound Power or HtH Attack?

 

Just to clarify, is buying damage shield as a naked modifier on Strength legal? Since strength is not an attack power it does not qualify for the advantage as it is written. If this is the case then the NM would be a moo point.