Bigoted Archetypes

[austenandrews]

I don't care to craft a delicate way to put this, so I'm just going to ask.

 

I'm curious how different people handle racist or otherwise bigoted pulp archetypes. For example, the childlike Chinese cook who pronounces R's as L's; the cowardly Black manservant; the tribesman with the bone through his nose; etc. Do you avoid them, embrace them, transform them into something more palatable, use them as sly social commentary, or what?

[Vondy]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

Some I flat out won't use. Charlie Chan is one example. At the same time I will use Fu Manchu. So what's the difference? In this case its two fold: Manchu may be a "scheming slanty eyed chinese," with an ostentatious Ming the Merciless does Shanghai look, but he's smart, capable, and courageous in pursuing his nefarious ends (despite Rhomer's oft criticized prose) - and he was more interesting than the heroes who faced him. Charlie Chan, on the other hand, was a snivelling coward with bad pronunciation in a cheap suit whose ongoing monologue about his own race (esp. on the radio shows) is racist in the extreme (I remember one where he wouldn't go save his daughter because of his self-proclaimed "asian cowardice"). One may be based in visual and cultural stereotypes, but he's also got some traits that force you to stand up and take notice, and to give him credit where credit is due. No one purchased Fu Manchu novels because of Petrie. The other one has nothing of the kind. Chan is a snivelling racist caricature.

 

Even so, I tend to bend the archetypes a little bit for my own sensibilities (and those of my players). My Fu has a cause, the restoration of the Dragon Throne (not a noble cause, but a cause), he speaks with an english accent (no silly pronounciations beyond, well, the one's the british use), and he's astute, but upon closer examination, Fu Manchu's modus operandi is little different than that of any other master villian regardless of their ethnic background. The main things that set him apart are his "ethnic look" and some of his "asian secrets" more than anything else. In of themselves, these don't make the protrayal of the character bigoted. Would a bearded fedora wearing rabbi who used the kabballah as his power be a bigoted archetype, or would it take more than that?

 

And that's a big part of my dividing line for these things. Sax Rhomer is often accused of abusing the asian "dragon lady" stereotype with Fu's daughter. Maybe he did, but is that stereotype inherently more sexist or bigoted than the femme fatale? Is the dragon lady anything more than a chinese femme fatale in a Cheongsam? Their modus operandi is pretty much identical. One just happens to be Chinese? Ignoring a characters ethnic identity relegates their cultural and ethnic identity to the realm of "unimportant" which is also pretty insulting and is pretty much white-washing a whole slew of characters who aren't white. Ethnic I don't have a problem with. Portraying the ethnicity in a bad light due to ignorance or bigotry I do have a problem with.

 

Your bone pierced cannibal is somewhat different. He doesn't have a parallel archetype we can point at that doesn't have the negative ethnic stereotypes attached (as we did with Fu Manchu vs. Megalomaniac or Dragon Lady vs. Femme Fatale). The choice here is to embrace it as a genre trope and run with it knowing its flawed and ludicrious: oh what an image - it makes me want to tie up the PCs and put them in a giant pot on a fire (where the hell did they get that giant pot anyways?) with a bone-nosed cannibal slicing onions and carrots into it! Amoing the ludicrious factor alone (the big pot, etc) undercuts any seriousness that might appear in the stereotype. I had an african american player stateside who would have cracked up over a scene like that (but he knew me, knows the genre, and would find a way to push to irony over the edge (his probably black, civilized character being the one in the pot...)).

 

Or you could somehow make such non-paralleled archetypes somewhat more palatable for modern consumption. You could have the bone-nosed "black savages" be remarkably intelligent opponents (I probably would); or try to make edgy social commentary (though that's not my schtick and my players don't go in for that sort of thing (much)).

 

Its not the archetype itself so much as what you do with it. Do you run it as a bigoted archetype or as an archetype with ethnic tropes attached. Is Fu Manchu really a "shifty asian mastermind" or is he a mainstream mastermind with an asian theme? If you aren't quoting Rhomer in game its pretty easy for you to decide which one it is.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

What he said.

 

We certainly have NPC's that embrace racist/sexist attitudes (usually in such a way to get on the PC's nerves and/or get the NPC into trouble), but avoid stereotypical caricatures of various groups. So, British Intelligence may well underestimate Fu Manchu and his "Oriental rabble", but at their peril.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

"A Confederacy of Dunces" features a lovely example of how to portray a minority, where the other characters see him (and use him) as pretty much a dumb slave, but his own dialogue and attitude reveals him to be sharper than any of them. I don't necessarily remove the racist attitudes from pulp games, but they definitely change as different characters get to know one another, much like real life. That said, I only do this with people I can trust to roleplay in a mature manner and who I know are not actually racist. Real racism, sexism, bigotry and such have no part in my games, in much the same way that real violence doesn't.

 

As for the Oriental Mastermind, it's a stereotype I've never used. By definition he has to be intelligent, and that means that player characters are very likely to underestimate him (and perhaps his associates) because of their ingrained attitudes to race. Personally I tend to model masterminds on the Carl Peterson character from "Bulldog Drummond," a white man whose country of origin cannot be determined. To the average pulp character the difference between a Japanese and a Chinaman is trifling, but that between a German and a Swede is important to their understanding. It's a matter of familiarity, and of course it can be seen in reverse where people from the East tend to assume that if you're white then you're English or American.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

Some I flat out won't use. Charlie Chan is one example. At the same time I will use Fu Manchu. So what's the difference? In this case its two fold: Manchu may be a "scheming slanty eyed chinese' date='" with an ostentatious Ming the Merciless does Shanghai look, but he's smart, capable, and courageous in pursuing his nefarious ends (despite Rhomer's oft criticized prose) - and he was more interesting than the heroes who faced him. Charlie Chan, on the other hand, was a snivelling coward with bad pronunciation in a cheap suit whose ongoing monologue about his own race (esp. on the radio shows) is racist in the extreme (I remember one where he wouldn't go save his daughter because of his self-proclaimed "asian cowardice"). One may be based in visual and cultural stereotypes, but he's also got some traits that force you to stand up and take notice, and to give him credit where credit is due. No one purchased Fu Manchu novels because of Petrie. The other one has nothing of the kind. Chan is a snivelling racist caricature.[/quote']I find it interesting you have this view of Charlie Chan. It's probably from the radio show. I've read all five novels and seen several of the movies, and in all I've seen Chan comments frequently on his poor command of English -- which, in the movies, is never worse than what I've actually heard from real-life Chinese such as Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, or Ling Bai -- while showing himself to be a highly intelligent and competent individual (girth notwithstanding). The "Asian cowardice," in terms of both the inaction and the attendant comment, is completely out of character from everything I've known him for -- in a couple of films he even risked life and limb for his Number Two Son ("without whose assistance many cases would have been solved much sooner").

 

This, to get back on topic, is roughly how I deal with these old-fashioned cultural stereotypes -- I use many of the externals while showing the characters themselves to be brave, intelligent, and honest.

[AlHazred]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

Having run a successful pulp game with pseudo-Nazi enemies, I say use the stereotypes your players won't find offensive. Everybody's got a blind side when it comes to offense - nobody is immune to the character trait of judging other people. Just try to find the ones your group won't feel awkward using, and yet make sure they understand that they are stereotypes. Use them in interesting ways that point out their truths and fallacies. For instance, I had a Prussian vigilante ally for the PCs, and one of the named enemy lieutenants happened to be a dupe. By using those, I tried to show the stereotypes from the sides, as it were, in a light you don't expect.

[csyphrett]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

That characterization has to be from the radio shows, D-Man. In the movies I have seen, Chan has a very solid reputation with everyone he meets, even at one point having to wear a disguise because of his fame.

 

The one stereotype I did see in one of those movies is the cowardly black cabbie who nevertheless gets involved in bad things going on when he should be leaving the scene as fast as possible.

 

CES

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

I was thinking about a space-opera/pulp style game to work around stuff like this. Nobody likes the cannibal native African stereotype. On the other hand, nobody really gets offended if the blue people from the hills of Farthak IV are cannibals.

[ldorn]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

The best African-American character of the era is the character of Rochester Van Jones (played by Eddie Anderson) from the Jack Benny Show.

 

Rochester was Benny's fictional butler, but was able to verbally get the better of his boss on occasion.

 

The only other major African-American radio characters from that period was Amos and Andy. They were voiced by two white actors.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

I was thinking about a space-opera/pulp style game to work around stuff like this. Nobody likes the cannibal native African stereotype. On the other hand' date=' nobody really gets offended if the blue people from the hills of Farthak IV are cannibals.[/quote']

 

Very true, but then again you can have fun with people's expectations. Just look at the way the aboriginal characters (such as the one played by Ernie Dingo) are treated in "Crocodile Dundee" (or maybe the sequel... can't say I'm an expert). Not the most high-brow example, I know, but you have the typical redneck-types scared to death that the aboriginals are going to eat them and even the supposedly worldly reporter imagines them as almost mystical noble savages. In any game, but a pulp game especially, the player characters are going to have certain expectations because of their backgrounds and the reality does not have to match those expectations.

[Markdoc]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

My approach is to avoid using the negative stereotypes, but I do use language peculiarities as "flavour".

 

Interestingly, this seems to have an effect on the player's reaction to NPC's who do this - the British secret service agent pretending to be an indian talked Peter Sellers Indian English: "Oh my goodness me! He appears to have met with a fatal accident!" and was treated with mild contempt by the players - until he displayed somewhat ruthless competence.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

I also have NPCs occasionally display attitudes which involve those stereotypes. Generally the fact that someone is an out and out racist is a decent clue that they are not person of quality . But in some cases, I have NPCs who are otherwise admirable display less virulent racism, simply to get across the point that the game is set in 1890, not 1990.

 

cheers, Mark

[st barbara]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

My approach is to avoid using the negative stereotypes, but I do use language peculiarities as "flavour".

 

Interestingly, this seems to have an effect on the player's reaction to NPC's who do this - the British secret service agent pretending to be an indian talked Peter Sellers Indian English: "Oh my goodness me! He appears to have met with a fatal accident!" and was treated with mild contempt by the players - until he displayed somewhat ruthless competence.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

I also have NPCs occasionally display attitudes which involve those stereotypes. Generally the fact that someone is an out and out racist is a decent clue that they are not person of quality . But in some cases, I have NPCs who are otherwise admirable display less virulent racism, simply to get across the point that the game is set in 1890, not 1990.

 

cheers, Mark

That sounds good "Markdoc". If my campaign gets off the fround I MAY possibly have two players playing a rich (female) dilettente and her Asian chauffer/bodyguard (with Martial Arts). It will be interesting to se how other players react to them, and also to use "the race card" to start a brawl if things are geting boring !

[OddHat]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

My Chinese characters are lifted from Chinese books and movies, my Japanese characters from Japanese books and movies, my African characters from UK books and movies. All of them are then compared to people I've known. Generally, if I can't imagine someone I've known saying or doing something in a given situation and with a given motivation, a character won't do that. It's not perfect, but it works for me.

 

Chinese movies are full of scheming Eunuchs and officials, as well as evil and seductive women. I have no problem at all with Fu or his daughter, though I do give them real Chinese names. My Fu is devoted to driving the British and Japanese (depending on the period) out of China, and rebuilding the country. He's a patriot. The Brits see him as evil, he sees himself as fighting against a powerful and aggressive empire.

 

Bone through the nose tribesmen are not an option for me, though I have used witch doctors and warriors.

 

The key (for me) is to always look at it issues from the point of view of the bad guys as you design the scenario. Their actions may be genuinely evil (say blowing up buildings full of innocent people to make a political point), but there is a reason for those actions. Understand that reason, put yourself in the shoes of someone who thinks in that way, and you'll be able to present the character in a convincing manner.

[Just Joe]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

My goal is to portray characters plausibly. My villains of any race or nationality will tend to reflect negatively on that group if taken as representatives thereof, but I hope not in stereotypical ways. "Primitive" people make plausible opponents, especially if they do not share a language with the PC's and previous experience has taught them to distrust people who look like the PC's. But I would be reluctant to make them cannibals unless it is either historically plausible or they worship some (Lovecraftian?) evil whose upper-class British worshippers are cannibals as well.

[Mentor]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

In our origininal Pulp Heroes campaign in the early 1980s (man I'm old) we had a Chinese mystic played by Donna, who is half Japanese and half Mexican and a Filipino houseboy played by a Filipino, Fernie. None of the PCs were inept and Fernie played Johnny Boondock, the Filipino Boxer/underworld contact so that anything stereotypical was an act to keep people underestimating him.

[Fox1]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

I don't even give a single thought to the 'correctness' level of my NPCs. They are what they are. Imaginary creations for my game subject to the errors that result from my own experience and level of knowledge.

 

Since some people are stupid and worthless, some of the NPCs are. Since some cultures were and are dangerous, some of the NPCs are. Since some people are exceptional, some of the NPCs are. The whole range from worst to best is to be found.

[input.jack]

Re: Bigoted Archetypes

 

I usually have the "man on the street" have the same general attitudes of the era the game is set in, but there is generally a discussion before a game set in an era where bigotry is common about how the characters will view things, so that everyone is on the same page and no one gets a nasty shock once the game begins.

 

I have used the "bone thru the nose" cannibal archetype in a couple of my campaigns, but I generally make them throwback Neanderthals, and thus not people of any modern-Human ethnic type. I was impressed when I saw "13th Warrior" that someone so esteemed as Crichton would so blatantly steal my idea

 

We have had some players who have given their characters reasons in their backgrounds to udnerstand that racial stereotypes are hogwash, such as the British Army officer recently retired from a Welsh regiment that had been stationed at the supply depot at Rorke's Drift when things got...interesting. Needless to say, anyone who has ever seen "Zulu!" would know why he would never refer to African natives as "cowardly blacks" again!!

 

(Before anyone protests that quote, please understand that it -is- a quote from the amazing 1964 movie. If you havent seen it, it is available on DVD now, and one of the best movies about courage in the face of an overwhelming enemy that I have ever seen. And -I- first saw it in a history class, as it is a true story!)

 

Once, during a 1950's adventure campaign I was running, the PC's were faced with the disappearance of an entire crew from a new, off-shore oil drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico. They found some interesting bits of evidence, and took them to the local marine biologist, whom they were surprised to discover was a rather breathtaking redhead! (The campaign had been described from the outset as mirroring the way the 50's was portrayed in cinema, not reality, so much, so a female doctor of marine biology was a rarity, but not unheard of. But being a female marine biologist, naturally, she was stunning, and in her late 20's). Lillian got involved in the adventure, and ultimately the group found itself aboard an experimantal mini-submarine, at the entrance to the undersea passage into the secret lair of the Aquati-men. (I did not name them that. The players did. Bless 'em).

 

The characters only had one deep-sea diving rig capable of withstanding the pressure, as deep as they were, and there was a debate going about who should get to put the thing on and go outside the sub. One of the players (my good friend Owen), was speaking in character. The decision was down to his "Scientific adventurer" character, or Tom's ex-Korean war veteran who had "seen too much" during the war. (Kind of a 50's "Nam vet" kind of feel), when Owen basically said,

 

"All right, I suppose it has come down to the two of us. While I have a better scientific background, I cannot deny that your experiences overseas have prepared you to react more quickly should the unexpected occur. However, due to the nature of the mission, I believe that....that....Ok this is out of character....WE SHOULD SEND THE MARINE BIOLOGIST! SHE KNOWS WHAT TO LOOK FOR! SHES PERFECTLY COMPETENT! SHES SMARTER THAN THE REST OF US PUT TOGETHER! SHE KNOWS WHAT SHES DOING! I CANT TELL A CONCH SHELL FROM A KRAKEN! WE SHOULD SEND HER! SHES THE ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE! WE SHOULD SEND THE WOMAN! SEND THE WOMAN!! ......................*ahem*...............Right...now...where was I.?...Oh yeah. I believe that I am the only logical choice for this mission, and that, meaning no offense, of course, despite your military training you simply would not know what to look for."

 

"What? Why is everyone laughing?"

 

That, I believe, was the perfect way to handle that particular situation. I gave Owen extra XP's to help compensate for the anurism