Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

[UltraRob]

I'm reading the book Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian (the one the movie is partially based on, very partially) and generally have found it to be a pretty good book with amazing (and incredibly anal) levels of detail about how those ships during late 17th century worked, lived and fought. One of the most interesting aspects is that the main ship in the book The Sophie, while nominally under the auspices of the British Royal Navy is actually a captured ship crewed by sailors given minimal pay and stores. The ship is expected to go out and get themselves "prizes" (enemy cargo ships) and then drag those back to port and be paid for them as their real way of earning money. They're half navy/half pirates but not privateers, and the captain's only real hope of promotion is showing how many prizes he can snag. I had no idea things were so mercenary back then, but I can't help but think how amazingly it would translate into a nice Star Hero campaign. (With the ship alternating being fox and hound, since you never know who you'll run into...)

 

Rob

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

The British army back then worked in a similar fashion in many cases - the British generals who served taking India made a killing in prizes and loot. Since the British officers also purchased their commissions, they'd want to make a profit at it, so they could buy a higher rank, to get a higher portion of prize money, to make more money, to buy a higher rank...etc. In both the army and navy, the prize structure sometimes led to actions against more profitable places/opponents, not always the most strategically prudent.

 

Here's an article about the navy's prize system: http://www.sfu.ca/~allen/navy.pdf

[UltraRob]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Wow! Great link! Thanks!

 

That's amazing stuff, so the British were outclassed in terms of numbers, out-teched, and motivated by a system that actually discouraged them fighting, and yet they still managed to rule the sea in their time. Oddly enough, I see parallels between this and current Massively Multiplayer Online gaming, and just how effective the people in those games are when profit is involved.

 

Money really is the greatest motivator known to mankind.

 

Rob

[John Desmarais]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

I'm reading the book Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian (the one the movie is partially based on, very partially) and generally have found it to be a pretty good book with amazing (and incredibly anal) levels of detail about how those ships during late 17th century worked, lived and fought. One of the most interesting aspects is that the main ship in the book The Sophie, while nominally under the auspices of the British Royal Navy is actually a captured ship crewed by sailors given minimal pay and stores. The ship is expected to go out and get themselves "prizes" (enemy cargo ships) and then drag those back to port and be paid for them as their real way of earning money. They're half navy/half pirates but not privateers, and the captain's only real hope of promotion is showing how many prizes he can snag. I had no idea things were so mercenary back then, but I can't help but think how amazingly it would translate into a nice Star Hero campaign. (With the ship alternating being fox and hound, since you never know who you'll run into...)

 

Rob

 

Have you read any of David Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels? It's a science fiction story set in and around a naval force that operates on similar rules. (Not unexpected as the author very much based his premise on some well known Napoleonic-era naval fiction.)

[csyphrett]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

David Drake also does the same for his Lt. Leary books.

CES

[John Desmarais]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

David Drake also does the same for his Lt. Leary books.

CES

 

More fun stuff...

[UltraRob]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Have you read any of David Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels? It's a science fiction story set in and around a naval force that operates on similar rules. (Not unexpected as the author very much based his premise on some well known Napoleonic-era naval fiction.)

 

Weber is next on my list after I finish O'Brian. :-)

 

Rob

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

honor harrington is great, i definitly recomend it

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Well, you have twenty Aubrey and Maturin books to work through, after which you should have all the inspiration you'll ever need. Ignore the recently published fragment of his final book, though, because it's only the barest sketch of a plan.

 

To me the best aspects of the novels (of which Master and Commander and Post Captain are probably the finest) is the social side and the developing relationship between the characters. Aubrey is awkward and inept on dry land, remarkably credulous, yet unsurpassed in his own water-borne kingdom; Maturin an accomplished spy, physician, linguist and naturalist who never seems to notice the state of his appearance and hates nothing so much as an informer. The plots and battles are almost an aside, and this is how I like RPGs to develop also, with the characters taking the centre stage and making it their own.

 

You're right, there is much there to adapt for a sci-fi game, especially a "lower end" one where the galaxy has not been fully explored and tamed and imperial expansion fires political tensions. Maturin would doubtless have been in raptures over the flora and fauna of an alien world.

[UltraRob]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Well' date=' you have twenty Aubrey and Maturin books to work through, after which you should have all the inspiration you'll ever need. Ignore the recently published fragment of his final book, though, because it's only the barest sketch of a plan.[/quote']

 

Well, I tend to rotate books, read one book by one author and then move onto another and eventually will cycle back to the first author. My current job (which involves travelling to several companies a day by public transit) allows me a lot of reading time. Actuallly, I read Midshipman Hornblower before I read Master and Commander, and I have to say I actually like the Hornblower stories better. Although the Hornblower stuff is the grand heroic stuff of officers, while the O'BRian stuff is the real meat and bones of a sailor's life in that age. (Complete with huge amounts of sometimes baffling slang.)

 

To me the best aspects of the novels (of which Master and Commander and Post Captain are probably the finest) is the social side and the developing relationship between the characters. Aubrey is awkward and inept on dry land, remarkably credulous, yet unsurpassed in his own water-borne kingdom; Maturin an accomplished spy, physician, linguist and naturalist who never seems to notice the state of his appearance and hates nothing so much as an informer. The plots and battles are almost an aside, and this is how I like RPGs to develop also, with the characters taking the centre stage and making it their own.

 

I'll make a point of reading Post Captain as my next O'Brian book. I might not read much more than that, he's good but his writing style is a little annoying.

 

You're right, there is much there to adapt for a sci-fi game, especially a "lower end" one where the galaxy has not been fully explored and tamed and imperial expansion fires political tensions. Maturin would doubtless have been in raptures over the flora and fauna of an alien world.

 

I was thinking it would also work well for a Traveller style setting, where space has been long established but communication is limited, travel times are longish and interstellar trade is booming. Set it out on the Fringes, and you have a Traveller HERO game set and made.

 

Rob

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

I was thinking it would also work well for a Traveller style setting, where space has been long established but communication is limited, travel times are longish and interstellar trade is booming. Set it out on the Fringes, and you have a Traveller HERO game set and made.

 

Rob

 

Absolutely. Sometimes it's nice to take a setting and tack it onto another, but it doesn't always work. In something like a CORE Command setting, dealing with over-the-top space opera and faster than light travel, I don't think that much of the Napoleonic wars era naval adventure would work, but Traveller has that wonderful design decision at its heart: speed of communication cannot outpace speed of travel. That takes you right back to the sort of problems faced in the early 19th century. Let us know how it turns out if you do try it.

[Barwickian]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Weber is next on my list after I finish O'Brian. :-)

 

Rob

 

Only 19 more books to go after your finish Master & Commander. And every one of them is a joy to read...

 

Given the frequent praise of the Honor Harrington series on these boards, I'll have to add them to my reading list.

 

FWIW, prize money was keenly sought by both captains and crew in the Royal Navy of the period, but it wasn't their first objective.

 

Officers and men were ruled first by their orders and the Articles of War. Custom, tradition and honour had a huge imapct on their behaviour as well.

 

No officer wanted to be thought overly concerned with money, no matter how much he privately sought it. And to go after prize money at the cost of your mission was a surefire way to get court-martialled. However, the reorganization of the prize awards in 1808, when the captain's share was reduced to give a greater reward to the admiral, was a source of major discontent.

[TheImperialKhan]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

Actually the captain's share of the prize money was reduced from three eighths to two following the mutinies at Spithead and The Nore in 1797 to give a greater share to the crew.

 

The Admiral commanding the station that a ship was attached to recived one eighth. If there was a squadron commander between the station commander and the captain, usually a Vice or Rear Admiral but sometimes a Commodore, then he would recieve one the captain's eighths.

 

Prior to the mutinies the majority of the crew recieved one eighth of the prize money to split between them. After they got one quarter. So everyone wanted a piece of that action and although the common sailor didn't get a fortune, he still got a nice chunk of change. Allow me to illustrate with an action from my novel:

 

After the battle of Machias Bay in which one French frigate of 32 guns, valued at about 17,000 pounds, was captured by the five ships of Sinclair's Flying Squadron. The prize money was devided up as follows -

 

2125 L to the Station Commander

 

2125 L to the Commodore

 

850 L per Captain

 

96 L 12 s per Lieut., Sailing Master and Marine Officer

 

88 L 11 s per Bosun, Carpenter, Surgeon and Master’s Mate

 

73 L 5 s 5 d per Midshipman, Purser, Gunner and Marine Sergeant

 

5 L 16 s 10 d per man for the remainder of the ships companies

 

 

So the average sailor gets a bit less than six pounds. A house could be bought at this time for 100 pounds so the average sailor got about 6% of the value of a house. Up in my neck of the woods houses start at $300,000. Six percent of that is $18,000. Even assuming that inflation has been less pronounced and the true value is say a third of that, we're still talking about $6,000 to the common seaman. Keep in mind this single capture was devided by five crews averaging 180 men each. If it had been a one-on-one fight the prize money for everyone below Commodore would be five times greater.

 

And that concludes our lesson in 18th century Royal Navy Economics for today.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

I would agree on a traveller type setting working really well for a campaign of this nature. during the Solomani Rim War or the Megatraveller rebellion era, small commerce raiders could work really well

[Barwickian]

Re: Master and Commander, Star Hero style.

 

I would agree on a traveller type setting working really well for a campaign of this nature. during the Solomani Rim War or the Megatraveller rebellion era' date=' small commerce raiders could work really well[/quote']

 

It also works well for Traveller tradewar settings (such as the classic tradewar between Akerut/Tukera and Oberlindes Lines), only this time the PCs would be employed by corporations rather than a government.

 

With the boot on the other foot, it can also apply to trading adventures in the Vargr Extents or adventures such as Leviathan, only this time the PCs will be avoiding the depredations of the commerce raiders.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that under the Royal Navy system we've been discussing, captains had to be very careful which ships they attacked, as attacking neutral or friendly ships would inevitably land them in court facing a hefty claim for compensation. Although the prize money was shared between captain and crew (and admiral if under an admiral's orders), as far as I can tell, the compensation for an improper attack fell entirely upon the captain.