Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

[Kirby]

Hello,

 

What do you believe would be the effect of an Armor Piercing attack against someone who has Damage Reduction? Would it cut straight through it and the DR not apply, or would you take half of the DR? I could see someone with 50% DR being hit by an AP attack and that dropping to 25%, but what about someone with 75% DR? Would it drop to 50% (the level below), change to 37-38%, or not be affected whatsoever? The same for 25%: would it drop to none (as there is no DR purchase below 25%), 12-13% or would the DR not be affected by an AP attack?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Hello,

 

What do you believe would be the effect of an Armor Piercing attack against someone who has Damage Reduction? Would it cut straight through it and the DR not apply, or would you take half of the DR? I could see someone with 50% DR being hit by an AP attack and that dropping to 25%, but what about someone with 75% DR? Would it drop to 50% (the level below), change to 37-38%, or not be affected whatsoever? The same for 25%: would it drop to none (as there is no DR purchase below 25%), 12-13% or would the DR not be affected by an AP attack?

Armor Piercing applies to defenses, not Damage Reduction. Whatever damage gets past defenses (such as PD/rPD or ED/rED)--halved if the attack has Armor Piercing and the defenses aren't Hardened--gets reduced normally by Damage Reduction.

 

As a side note, Damage Reduction actually can't keep you from taking the minimum damage of a Penetrating attack. If a HKA rolls 10 Body and 3 "Normal Body Count," then you will take at least 3 Body, despite (non-Hardened) defenses and Damage Reduction.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

HOUSE RULE ALERT

 

I use an Advantage called No Damage Reduction (aka NDR) which is a +1/2 Advantage that can be added to any attack power. When an attack power with NDR hits a character with Damage Reduction, NDR allows the attack to completely bypass Damage Reduction.

 

I was also thinking this power could be done in stages:

 

+1/4 Ignores 25% Damage Reduction and reduces 50% and 75% Damage Reduction by 25%

 

+1/2 Ignores 25% and 50% Damage Reduction and reduces 75% Reduction to 25%

 

+3/4 Ignores all Damage Reduction.

 

Other than that, in my games, there's no other way to bypass Damage Reduction. Also, I think officially by the HERO rules, they only way to bypass Damage Reduction is to shut it off by Dispel, Drain or Suppress.

[Kirby]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Thanks for the heads up, guys. I have 5E which mentions about Penetrating, but it omits info on Armor Piercing (though it sort of implies that it wouldn't). If I had known this years ago, my only character who has died would still be alived. (And it wasn't even the GM, but his 'buddy' who also GM'd that laughed when I was hit with an AP attack saying that it went right through my DR )

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Damage Reduction, as mentioned reduced post-defense damage. Therefore the guy who pointed out an incorrect rule, causing your character's death should get a nice punch in the nose when you next see him.

[Kirby]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Damage Reduction' date=' as mentioned reduced [b']post[/b]-defense damage. Therefore the guy who pointed out an incorrect rule, causing your character's death should get a nice punch in the nose when you next see him.

 

Un/fortunately though, I haven't seen said person in about six years, though to my knowledge he still lives in the neighboring metroplex. Anyway, my character in question was hit in the head with two pistols. This was also when we did head shots did 2x body damage before defenses; amazingly, after this, it was decided called shot damage modifiers would be applied after defenses. My character was hit for 42 BODY AP and 126 STUN total. My PD was 10/8 (Hardened), so I stopped 16 BODY (two hits), but that left 26 Body to plow through me. I only had 12 BODY to begin with, so it brought me to -14, two into dead. So I guess I would/should have only taken 20 BODY, which would have left me at -8, which, with Regeneration (can't remember if it was just 1 or 2 BODY), I could/would have come back, although with a massive headache.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

HOUSE RULE ALERT

 

I use an Advantage called No Damage Reduction (aka NDR) which is a +1/2 Advantage that can be added to any attack power. When an attack power with NDR hits a character with Damage Reduction, NDR allows the attack to completely bypass Damage Reduction.

 

 

I appreciate it is a house rule, but I don't like the idea.

 

The reason is that it will only ever get used as a multipower slot, so it will cost virtually nothing to bypass somewhere between 10 and 60 points of power. I accept that AP as an advantage can, in effect, bypass a substantial amount of defence, and NND even more so, but rarely to that extreme.

 

In any event it is going to be very difficult to justify, I'd have thought. I tend to use DR for huge creatures, or characters that are (say) metal all the way through i.e. I like to have some sort of logic involved in the application of the power: I can't see a single sfx adequately explaining why DR should not apply.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I appreciate it is a house rule, but I don't like the idea.

 

The reason is that it will only ever get used as a multipower slot, so it will cost virtually nothing to bypass somewhere between 10 and 60 points of power. I accept that AP as an advantage can, in effect, bypass a substantial amount of defence, and NND even more so, but rarely to that extreme.

 

In any event it is going to be very difficult to justify, I'd have thought. I tend to use DR for huge creatures, or characters that are (say) metal all the way through i.e. I like to have some sort of logic involved in the application of the power: I can't see a single sfx adequately explaining why DR should not apply.

Why would it only get used in a multipower slot?

 

I agree I'd have a hard time justifying it in most circumstances. But I can think of a few (admittedly obscure) situations where I could see it working. For example, in my fantasy game all demons have some amount of DR; I could see a demon-killer sword that bypasses demons' DR. Or some type of weapon that attacks the entire body, rather than a part of it, so size doesn't really help. It could make an interesting alternative to NND attacks against characters whose main defense comes from DR rather than from armor.

 

But I'd certainly be VERY careful about when and how I allowed it.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Is this gonna be a standup fight, sir, or another bughunt?"

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I appreciate it is a house rule, but I don't like the idea.

 

The reason is that it will only ever get used as a multipower slot, so it will cost virtually nothing to bypass somewhere between 10 and 60 points of power. I accept that AP as an advantage can, in effect, bypass a substantial amount of defence, and NND even more so, but rarely to that extreme.

 

In any event it is going to be very difficult to justify, I'd have thought. I tend to use DR for huge creatures, or characters that are (say) metal all the way through i.e. I like to have some sort of logic involved in the application of the power: I can't see a single sfx adequately explaining why DR should not apply.

 

Hey, I figure if they have an affects desolified advantage, NDR shouldn't be a big deal in the scheme of things.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

AP doesn't affect Damage Reduction at all...

 

 

... and I see others have beat me to this.

 

 

As for the NDR... I'm not to keen on it.

 

To be more precise... I actually do not like Advantages and Limitations that are specialized mechanic vs. mechanic. An advantage would normally reflect a described effect/special effect/situation... "Not vs. Fire"... "Not at night"... rather than targeting a specific mechanic.

 

Now... you could argue that Hardened is an advantage targeting a mechanic... AP/Pen... but I would say that this is a core rule (every attack has a defense) masquerading as an Advantage.

 

Often creating an new advantage/lim that is vs. another mechanic (instead of vs. an effect/SFX/situation) is rather non-sensical or downright broken. The NDR is an example of the former. Since Damage Reduction takes so many forms... pliable body, lucky nicks, always rolling with the blow, etc., ... it is hard to fathom how a power could have a built in "ignore this" on a game level. It is like how "Affects Desolid" often makes no sense because how can a gun designed to slow phase shifters also be automatically able to hurt a ghost? (This actually can go in a number of tangents in showing why Desolid is a screwy part of the game because it turns so many core system elements around... Desol is a defense vs. many things, it is all or nothing, it is a defense that demands an attack be created against it rather than the standard mode of "defense for every attack, etc.)

 

Essentially, if there is going to be a functional mechanic that requires a functional counter... then that should be at the mechanic level... built in. (Example... Energy damage requires Energy Defense as a counter) Advantages and Limitations should not create new mechanics... but should reflect game/story/effect/SFX/situation elements that are not hard wired into the mechanics.

 

Actually, I've had kind of an epiphany while writing this. I'm going to rep everyone I can on this thread for helping me see this critical point.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Damage Reduction' date=' as mentioned reduced [b']post[/b]-defense damage. Therefore the guy who pointed out an incorrect rule, causing your character's death should get a nice punch in the nose when you next see him.

 

I have an experimental +1 Advantage for reduces damage prior to defenses. It's pretty tough.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I appreciate it is a house rule, but I don't like the idea.

 

 

I used it in my last champs game. I made it a set of three advantages* and it made the attack stun only (just like NND). Seemed to be okay

 

+1/2 to get past 1/4 reduction - no effect on higher

+1 to get past 1/2

+1 1/2 to get past 3/4.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Why would it only get used in a multipower slot?

 

I agree I'd have a hard time justifying it in most circumstances. But I can think of a few (admittedly obscure) situations where I could see it working. For example, in my fantasy game all demons have some amount of DR; I could see a demon-killer sword that bypasses demons' DR. Or some type of weapon that attacks the entire body, rather than a part of it, so size doesn't really help. It could make an interesting alternative to NND attacks against characters whose main defense comes from DR rather than from armor.

 

But I'd certainly be VERY careful about when and how I allowed it.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Is this gonna be a standup fight, sir, or another bughunt?"

 

Call me cynical, but unless you are in a campaign where everyone has DR, throwing 8d6 EBs instead of 12d6 ones is not going to happen, so you'll need an alternative and so the power with this advantage is almost certain to be found predominantly in a VPP or MP.

 

As for the demons, I'd have thought the better solution was to require demons DR to not work against (say) consecrated weapons, rather than building a new rule/advantage to deal with it.

 

As for NuSordGraphite's point about Affects Desolid: I agree. I can not think of a way that a single power should be allowed to effect a gaseous form, vibrational phasing, energy form and spirit travelling. Let's get rid of the advantage and spend a little more thought in designing heroes and villains.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I used it in my last champs game. I made it a set of three advantages* and it made the attack stun only (just like NND). Seemed to be okay

 

+1/2 to get past 1/4 reduction - no effect on higher

+1 to get past 1/2

+1 1/2 to get past 3/4.

 

...but no one took that as the main attack, I suppose: it was a backup slot in a MP or VPP, wasn't it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I used it in my last champs game. I made it a set of three advantages* and it made the attack stun only (just like NND). Seemed to be okay

 

+1/2 to get past 1/4 reduction - no effect on higher

+1 to get past 1/2

+1 1/2 to get past 3/4.

 

Why not +1/2 to reduce damage reduction by 1/4. and allowing it to be purchased multiple times?

 

12d6 normal

 

8d6 at +1/2

 

6d6 at +1

 

4 1/2 d6 at +1 1/2

 

Assume a target with 0 defenses and 3/4 damage reduction, and he takes:

 

- 10 Stun

- 14 Stun

- 16 Stun

- 16 Stun

 

Give him 10 DEF (more likely, IMO) and he takes

 

- 8 Stun

- 9 Stun

- 8 Stun

- 6 Stun

 

I think I'll stick to the straight EB - at least I might do some knockback.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Why not +1/2 to reduce damage reduction by 1/4. and allowing it to be purchased multiple times?

 

I thought of that later, but I had already set it up that way; I don't use the advantage in my current games, but I did in a long running old one. Not that I think that it is nessesarily a bad (or good) idea - just thorwing what I had done up for discussion.

 

As to why - at the time I didn't want someone to take a +1/2 advantage and knock 3/4 reduction to 1/2. I wanted the possibilty to be there, but I didn't want to make it extremely attractive - there were a few SFX that I could see justifiying it, but not too many.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

...but no one took that as the main attack' date=' I suppose: it was a backup slot in a MP or VPP, wasn't it?[/quote']

 

True.

 

But there is also this - in my 20 years of HERO playing, as I sit here and think, I have never seen a PC with an advantaged attack (whether AP, NND ect) as a primary attack, it was always support. So I agree with your observation - I just see it in a broader scope.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Call me cynical' date=' but unless you are in a campaign where everyone has DR, throwing 8d6 EBs instead of 12d6 ones is not going to happen, so you'll need an alternative and so the power with this advantage is almost certain to be found predominantly in a VPP or MP.[/quote']

OK, point taken. I was thinking of it more for items than for powers per-se. I agree it could be prone to abuse the way you describe it.

 

As for the demons' date=' I'd have thought the better solution was to require demons DR to not work against (say) consecrated weapons, rather than building a new rule/advantage to deal with it. [/quote']

Sure, and that's how I work it now. I was just thinking this might be an alternative way to do it, if you didn't want them to be vulnerable to holy/magic/silver/whatever weapons in general, but wanted to create a specific or unique weapon designed to deal with them. Probably wouldn't use it very often myself, but it's a tool in the tool kit.

 

But there is also this - in my 20 years of HERO playing' date=' as I sit here and think, I have never seen a PC with an advantaged attack (whether AP, NND ect) as a primary attack, it was always support. So I agree with your observation - I just see it in a broader scope. [/quote']

Oh I've seen it: AP in particular has been a relatively common advantage in some games I've played. (Magic AP swords, arrows, etc.) But I agree it's the exception rather than the rule, and probably even more so in superheroic games.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Too tired to sig"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

True.

 

But there is also this - in my 20 years of HERO playing, as I sit here and think, I have never seen a PC with an advantaged attack (whether AP, NND ect) as a primary attack, it was always support. So I agree with your observation - I just see it in a broader scope.

 

They are missing out then; I've had players with NND and AP attacks as their main (non MP) attacks. It gives a bit of a different flavour: some things they are useless against, but that is why they are in a team most of the time. Comparing a 60 point MP with even 2 slots against a single blast takes it from a 6d6 NND to a 7d6 NND. AP attacks (on the same basis) are going from 12d6 normal attack (or 8d6 AP) to 9 1/2 d6 AP - generally worth it too (that 2 1/2 dice averages about 9 stun so against 18+defences you do better)

 

Obviously bigger MPs give even more points to play with. I'm not so bothered about DC/AP limits if you are comparing a MP with a straight attack - up to a point, at least.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

True.

 

But there is also this - in my 20 years of HERO playing, as I sit here and think, I have never seen a PC with an advantaged attack (whether AP, NND ect) as a primary attack, it was always support. So I agree with your observation - I just see it in a broader scope.

Are you thinking of AoE when you say that?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

They are missing out then;

 

Yeah.

 

Multipower attack suites have been very common from my FtF experience. I play them often myself.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

As for NuSordGraphite's point about Affects Desolid: I agree. I can not think of a way that a single power should be allowed to effect a gaseous form' date=' vibrational phasing, energy form and spirit travelling. Let's get rid of the advantage and spend a little more thought in designing heroes and villains. [/quote']

 

Soul Force Blade ... attacks the targets soul directly, regardless of the condition of the physical body: NND (Def: Soulless being/object), Affects Desol, All Forms Of Desol.

 

of course, you said "a single power should be allowed...", not "couldn't think of a single special effect that could..."

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Soul Force Blade ... attacks the targets soul directly, regardless of the condition of the physical body: NND (Def: Soulless being/object), Affects Desol, All Forms Of Desol.

 

of course, you said "a single power should be allowed...", not "couldn't think of a single special effect that could..."

 

I don't believe in the soul... nor is there a stat for it on my character.

[pinecone]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

I don't believe in the soul... nor is there a stat for it on my character.

Dude!...how can you listen to this tune, and not have soul?...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction hit by Armor Piercing

 

Dude!...how can you listen to this tune' date=' and not have soul?...[/quote']

 

Which tune? currently listening to Longwave "Heart Attack" on WOXY.

 

Didn't say I don't have soul... just that I don't believe in A soul.