DC's turn toward the dark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I agree such comments are fundamentally unfair.It is a fundamental consumer right to complain if the product is unsatisfactory.

 

Complain away. But recognize that, whether you buy the latest issue of Morally Relative Man Kills the Villains, it's a sale. It doesn't matter whether you bought it and loved it, bought it and hated it, or dislike it so much you bought every copy on the shelves so you could burn them, the publisher sees "+1 copy sold", and the sales figures guide what they will produce. "Go ahead and complain", say the publishers, "Just keep buying!"

 

Sure, you have the right to complain. As a concumer, you also have a responsibility to purchase wisely, becuase your purchasing decisions really do drive the marketplace.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I couldn't have put it better' date=' Hugh. Personally, I quit buying DC's stuff (except for the occassional interesting-looking Elseworlds and the Legion Archives) not long after [i']Crisis[/i] and long before Zero Hour because I didn't like the changes and the directions they were taking. From what I've heard in the years since then, they've continued to go in directions I find repulsive and have come to the conclusion I haven't missed anything.

 

This raises an interesting question. This thread refers to DC darkening like it's a relatively new phenomenon, and like it switches on and off. It doesn't - it's a continuum (darker; lighter - it shifts).

 

Is Wonder Woman killing Max Lord a watershed moment in the shift? There's lots of "darkenings" which could be considered. What about:

 

- when Superman killed three Kryptonian villains? Up until that point, Superman had never had to take a life to win, but suddenly, it's the only alternative he can think of.

 

- when Crisis killed Supergirl and the Flash? These major, iconic characters were suddenly no longer immune to mortal harm.

 

- When Flash Barry Allen killed the Reverse Flash?

 

- When SpiderMan failed to save Gwen Stacy (Captain Stacy? Uncle Ben?) - sometimes, the hero fails and people close to him die. [OK, not a DC comic, but surely a watershed moment - I'll avoid other Marvels]

 

- When the [original] Doom Patrol died? [The whole team died?]

 

- When Ferro Lad sacrificed himself to destroy the Sun Eater? [Earliest example I can think of where a DC hero, not a one shot character, died in the line of duty]

 

These go further and further back, and each represents a dark event which realy hadn't occured before.

 

Of course, we could also turn comics to more light, where every problem is solved by handing the villain some tasty Hostess snack and all's right with the world.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

> Bully for you - do you also steal satellite signals and pirate music and

> computer software? Mind you, some libraries now stock comics, so let's

> just assume you take your library card and read them there to avoid

> the "when is it theft" argument best left to NGD.

 

If you absolutely /had/ to be rude about it, then the least you could have done is have the testicles to make the accusation flat-out, instead of trying to pretend that you weren't. Here, let me help you.

 

[Hugh Neilson]Chuckg pirates comics! OMG![/Hugh Neilson]

 

[snip]

> Well, I suppose if it's a common argument, it must be wrong! Especialy if it

> doesn't coincide with your personal opinions.

 

> I have no problem with people complaining.

 

 

You sure appear to. Do you /ever/ appear to.

 

[snip]

> It's the free market economy, Chuck. If no one was buying it, no one

> would produce it. The fact is, whether we like the direction comics are,

> and have, taken or not, the sales fiugures seem to indicate the total of

> people who like it, and therefore buy it, and the people who don't like it,

> and buy it nevertheless, is good enough to keep the publishers happy. If

> the general public (not just you, not just me - the comic buying public)

> stopped buying the darker books, the darker books would go away.

 

And we now segue from the 'It's your fault for your continuing to buy the comics' argument into its cousin, the 'People are still buying them, so they must like them, stop complaining'.

 

The fifth-highest grossing movie of all time is the same movie that unleashed Jar Jar effing Binks upon an unsuspecting populace. Does that mean it was quality entertainment? Rob Liefeld still sells enough comics to be able to find regular work in the industry. Does that mean he's a great writer/artist? Last I knew, Palladium Games was making more bling selling Rifts than SJG has made selling GURPS 4e. Does that mean Rifts is the superior product?

 

It is a puzzling but sadly true fact that in today's entertainment industry, sales don't always mean quality. The free market does work, yes... but what it works /at/ is making money, not enforcing quality standards of artistic talent.

 

As you yourself concede below.

 

> The fact is that sales of the darker books have been strong, so the

> publishers keep making them. [Just like people watched crappy "reality"

> TV, so the networks kept developing and airing crappy "reality" TV shows.

> At least these had the advantage of lower production costs.

 

So your point is... what? That because it's selling, we shouldn't bother complaining about it?

 

Dude, if you don't want to hear me complain about comics, skip my posts or use your Ignore List. But quit running through the laundry list of reasons as to why I shouldn't bother. If I don't like it, I have every right to say so... without having to put up with somebody telling me that I'm supposedly part of the problem, or that since everybody else likes it I shouldn't bother, or anything remotely near.

 

Complain away. But recognize that, whether you buy the latest issue of Morally Relative Man Kills the Villains, it's a sale. It doesn't matter whether you bought it and loved it, bought it and hated it, or dislike it so much you bought every copy on the shelves so you could burn them, the publisher sees "+1 copy sold", and the sales figures guide what they will produce. "Go ahead and complain", say the publishers, "Just keep buying!"

 

Sure, you have the right to complain. As a concumer, you also have a responsibility to purchase wisely, becuase your purchasing decisions really do drive the marketplace.

 

And apparently it's not just me you're trying this rap on.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

A post from another message board (dated several days ago) that had a relevant message on the 'sales vs. quality' thing:

 

Well, you see, the problem is that what WE want and what DC wants are diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive.

 

WE want stories that make sense, have definite stopping-points, make sense, don't drag on forever, make sense, have the characters at least able to tolerate and work with each other even if they don't like each other, make sense, have the heroes act like they have more intelligence than the average rubber-tree plant, and MAKE SENSE.

 

DC wants stories that SELL BIG - and it thinks the only way to have that is to slave-chain all of their books together, grind all their characters into the mud, force every kind of angst they can imagine on them, and then stand back and watch them suffer. And suffer. And suffer.

[psm]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Interesting quote. The only part I have a problem with is who 'WE' is.

 

Because I'm not sure that 'we' all want that. Sure it would be nice and its definitely something the writer/editor should shoot for. However, I think their main priority is to entertain. Which DC comics still does (although I don't collect them).

 

I think the biggest problem that discussion like these have are that as fans we are not objective. We have a problem separating quality from taste. Their stories are still well done. They're well executed, well drawn, and seen on their own make sense. The problem rises when they don't conform to our tastes.

 

We see the characters in a certain light. The new version don't jive with that version so they will always seem incorrect. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it so. Their current version is always the correct version regardless of our opinion.

 

Although, its still fun to complain about it

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

'We' referred to the vast majority of people in the thread on the other board that I was quoting from.

 

As for 'their first priority is to entertain' -- well, yes. Her point was, well-written stories with sympathetic characters and packaged in small enough bundles that you can actually afford to buy them all /are/ entertaining, and huge overblown depressing angst-fests crossed-over 80 separate ways and populated by dysfunctional morons /aren't/.

 

To quote another post from the same author:

 

I wonder when everybody is going to wake up to the obvious. All this outcry and pressure to "make comics more like real life" is ultimately self-defeating' date=' because, y'know, real life SUCKS.[/quote']

[psm]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

'We' referred to the vast majority of people in the thread on the other board that I was quoting from.

 

As for 'their first priority is to entertain' -- well, yes. Her point was, well-written stories with sympathetic characters and packaged in small enough bundles that you can actually afford to buy them all /are/ entertaining, and huge overblown depressing angst-fests crossed-over 80 separate ways and populated by dysfunctional morons /aren't/.

 

To quote another post from the same author:

 

Ahh, I thought 'we' was referring to the general buying public.

 

As for Sk8maven's argument I don't agree with her premise. Not that I'm expecting you to defend it. That would be unfair to you. Especially, considering its more of a rant than an argument. Which is obviously why this current thread was started.

 

What I'm trying to get at is that her definition of entertaing or well done is still a judgement call. Some like the new DC, crossovers, angst and some don't. Trying to quantify it as bad or good is futile.

 

Obviously, we can all agree that DC's stories have gotten darker as of late. Beyond that it becomes a question of taste.

 

Realizing now, that this thread is more of a commiseration I kinda wish I hadn't posted. I feel that my posts kind of derail the momentum. For that I apologize.

 

Lastly, (and not to rub anyones noses in it) my 'real life' is awesome and I wish more characters could have it:) Maybe thats why I don't read comics for escapism.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

> Well, I suppose if it's a common argument, it must be wrong! Especialy if it

> doesn't coincide with your personal opinions.

 

> I have no problem with people complaining.

 

 

You sure appear to. Do you /ever/ appear to.

 

Why do you have a problem if people complain about you complaining? You have every right to your opinions. I have every right to mine. You have the right to post your opinions on a public message board. I have the right to post my opinions on a public message board.

 

I've found the four miniseries leading up to IC to be entertaining. Perfect? no. Plot gaps? Sure - find any 60+ year franchise with no continuity issues. But entertaining.

 

I'm still waiting for your publishing company to produce perfect comics, so in the meantime, I have to settle for what other companies are publishing now.

 

> It's the free market economy, Chuck. If no one was buying it, no one

> would produce it. The fact is, whether we like the direction comics are,

> and have, taken or not, the sales fiugures seem to indicate the total of

> people who like it, and therefore buy it, and the people who don't like it,

> and buy it nevertheless, is good enough to keep the publishers happy. If

> the general public (not just you, not just me - the comic buying public)

> stopped buying the darker books, the darker books would go away.

 

And we now segue from the 'It's your fault for your continuing to buy the comics' argument into its cousin, the 'People are still buying them, so they must like them, stop complaining'.

 

Stop complaining? No - carry on. But stop expecting that complaining alone will change anything. Stop buying the books (you have done this, so you're part of the solution). Write/draw/publish superior comics to draw the dollars away from the mediocrity (to be generous) you perceive in the marketplace

 

I'm still waiting for your publishing company to produce perfect comics, so in the meantime, I have to settle for what other companies are publishing now.

 

The fifth-highest grossing movie of all time is the same movie that unleashed Jar Jar effing Binks upon an unsuspecting populace. Does that mean it was quality entertainment? Rob Liefeld still sells enough comics to be able to find regular work in the industry. Does that mean he's a great writer/artist? Last I knew, Palladium Games was making more bling selling Rifts than SJG has made selling GURPS 4e. Does that mean Rifts is the superior product?

 

It is a puzzling but sadly true fact that in today's entertainment industry, sales don't always mean quality. The free market does work, yes... but what it works /at/ is making money, not enforcing quality standards of artistic talent.

 

Apparently, enough people think so to cause the sales effect that results. Yourt basic point apears to be "quality doesn't necessarily sell". Agreed. That's because what we may perceive as "high quality" isn't what others would consider "high quality". Many people would say that everything you've cited - science fiction movies, comic boks and RPG's - are all lowbrow "culture", not quality works of literature or art. It's a matter of opinion.

 

I don't, by the way, acknowledge there ARE objective standards of quality of art. Frankly, I think most Manga could be drawn just as well by a 6 year old. But someone (a lot of someones, actually) must like the style, or it wouldn't sell so well. I don't like it, so I don't buy it.

 

Dude' date=' if you don't want to hear me complain about comics, skip my posts or use your Ignore List. But quit running through the laundry list of reasons as to why I shouldn't bother. If I don't like it, I have every right to say so... without having to put up with somebody telling me that I'm supposedly part of the problem, or that since everybody else likes it I shouldn't bother, or anything remotely near.[/quote']

 

I see. You have every right to voice your opinions. Others do not have that same right, especially if their opinions differ from your own. Who decides which opinions are of sufficient quality that they deserve the right to be publicly spoken?

 

Just as you have every right to post your opinions, I have every right to disagree with your opinions, and to post my own opinions, even if they don't coincide with your own.

 

The right to express opinions is not limited to you alone - it is universal.

[MitchellS]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

The right to express opinions is not limited to you alone - it is universal.

I wish only I had the right to express opinions. Oh what a wonderful world it would then be.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I wish only I had the right to express opinions. Oh what a wonderful world it would then be.

 

It's realy painful when the right to free expression and free thought is so sadly misused and abused, isnt it?

[MitchellS]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

It's realy painful when the right to free expression and free thought is so sadly misused and abused' date=' isnt it? [/quote']

Did my wife tell you to say that?

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I'm wondering how many times I can read the title of this thread as DC's turn Howard the Duck.

Funny, I did that too a few times.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

> Why do you have a problem if people complain about you complaining?

 

Because it's annoying as heck. Do I /need/ another reason?

 

OK, here's the other reason: everything you have said, everything you have justified, every rationalization you have come up with so far on this thread has all boiled down to one, simple core message -- 'Chuckg, shut up, I don't want to hear it.' (edit) With a side order of 'It's just pointless fanboy ranting, you silly person.'

 

How you can do that and still talk about 'everybody's right to have an opinion' with a straight face, I don't want to know.

[csyphrett]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Besides its off topic.

 

CES

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Besides its off topic.

 

Yes, I suppose it is.

 

Mind you, I always kind of wonder about the "comic book posts" on the Champions board in general. After all, we don't see any "LoTR: Best Fantasy Ever or Lame Drivel?" threads on the Fantasy Hero board. Not sure about the other genre boards as I rarely visit them.

[Rikathos]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

This ain't my fight. And far be it for a lesser member of this board to jump into it.

 

I have a question Chuckg.

 

You have stated your opinion and others have stated yours. The others seem to have a different opinion than yours and do not seem to be changing it.

 

What is the point of continueing this? You are wasting energy and time getting mad over something you can't change. Picking apart peoples comments will only devolve this discussion further. You going to just keep butting heads until someone gets banned and this thread dies...Unless you like it.

And if so...Let's get You and Master Blaster into the Thunderdome and have at it.

We could do a pay per view.

 

Okay...I'm done. Commence with the verbal drawing and quartering.

I can at least say I had the stones to try reason.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

 

The "point" is that I want to, I can, and I have every right to. I don't need any more justification than this. If you want to dispute that, do so via PM, since you're so concerned about bandwidth wasting.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Well... let me step into this arena!!!

 

I've personally been quite enjoying the lead up to Infinite Crisis thus far with a few exceptions.

 

O.M.A.C. was keeping me fairly well entertained... however I wasn't altogether sold on Batman building a huge super-satellite network and A.I. to monitor it. Doesn't really seem like his sort of thing.

 

Sacrifice on the other hand... fairly poor all in all. The use of Supes, WW and Batman in this way doesn't really ring true. The whole Max Lord brainwashing, J'onn not being able to do anything about it and Diana going for the last resort smacked of what any PC would call railroading if it happened in a game. I enjoyed the WW/Supes fight but most of the rest of it made little sense.

 

Villains United seemed to me to be the worst of all the miniseries, but I've actually really enjoyed it and would like to read a bit more about most of the characters involved. I think it's fairly clear that Mockingbird is probably the Joker and this should be an interesting reveal. I'm not too sure what the final outcome of this series will be either which is a good thing really!

 

Rann/Thanagar War just hasn't really done anything for me so far. It all kinda came out of nowhere and I'm not really sure what to make of it thus far.

 

Day of Vengeance is quite enjoyable simply because I like the Big Red Cheese, Spectre and Blue Devil... aside from that I'm certainly intruiged, although I hope I'm not wrong in my assumption something must be going on behind the scenes. If Eclipso has really tricked/seduced the Spectre then I'll maybe change my opinion on this. It also has the worst artwork of the four, but so far hasn't been too bad.

 

Return of Donna Troy hasn't been up to much, but many of the tie in issues (especially the JSA ones) have been fun so far. I though Identity Crisis was laden with flaws, but made for a fairly entertaining read.

 

All in all I'm sceptical about the direction DC is taking, and if I had my way I'd be reading DC 1,000,000 II or somesuch, but I'm willing to go along for the ride and see where it leads.

 

Re-read CoIE yesterday actually... It's actually quite enjoyable!!! Well worth the £80 I paid for it a few years ago!

 

Also read DC 1,000,000 last week... that's what a big summer crossover should be all about!!! Grant Morrison is the Daddy of big superhero stories... I just love lines about guys punching through time!!!

[Rikathos]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I have no problem with expression of opinion Chuckg.

At least you didn't swear at me...my sensitive feelings and all.

 

Ooo look something for you to obsess about.

 

As for this Dark turn in DC. I like it.

I liked Ted Kord, and I liked Barry Allen.

Things change, I'm looking forward to finding out what they have in store for us.

Can it be any worse than Zero Hour? I think not.

Now the discussion for a while seemed to focus on the Continuity of the universe.

IE the whole GA age thing amongst other details.

I think with the Catalog of characters that DC has I think they do a remarkable job of at least attempting some sort of continuity. Unlike Marvel.

Which I know that's a whole other debate and off topic.

But I'm curious to see where the Infinity Crisis will take the DC universe.

Where as House of M..I really don't care.

[memorax300]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I have no problem with expression of opinion Chuckg.

At least you didn't swear at me...my sensitive feelings and all.

 

Ooo look something for you to obsess about.

 

As for this Dark turn in DC. I like it.

I liked Ted Kord, and I liked Barry Allen.

Things change, I'm looking forward to finding out what they have in store for us.

Can it be any worse than Zero Hour? I think not.

Now the discussion for a while seemed to focus on the Continuity of the universe.

IE the whole GA age thing amongst other details.

I think with the Catalog of characters that DC has I think they do a remarkable job of at least attempting some sort of continuity. Unlike Marvel.

Which I know that's a whole other debate and off topic.

But I'm curious to see where the Infinity Crisis will take the DC universe.

Where as House of M..I really don't care.

 

Exactly how I feel. One of the few reasons I like DC over Marvel is that they attempt some sort of continuity. And most of the time the characters stay dead as opposed to Marvel. "Jean Grey is really dead we mean it this time. Why are you all laughing, stop laughing."

[csyphrett]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Yes, I suppose it is.

 

Mind you, I always kind of wonder about the "comic book posts" on the Champions board in general. After all, we don't see any "LoTR: Best Fantasy Ever or Lame Drivel?" threads on the Fantasy Hero board. Not sure about the other genre boards as I rarely visit them.

 

I think it's because comic book fans tend to be more rabid about their subject matter. It's like your last thing from being a kid.

 

I don't think I have expressed that well.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

DC is better at continuity than Marvel. (How many Magnetos are there?) Someone said this stuff goes in cycles, and it does.

 

The thing that bugs me the most over everything is that these stories ignore continuty to the point that the guy in charge said, "We picked some guy and erased what we needed to move the plot."

 

If you were going to do that, why not just go with a new guy.

 

CES

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Exactly how I feel. One of the few reasons I like DC over Marvel is that they attempt some sort of continuity. And most of the time the characters stay dead as opposed to Marvel. "Jean Grey is really dead we mean it this time. Why are you all laughing' date=' stop laughing."[/quote']

 

Isn't it interesting that, in the 60's and 70's, this was the same reason many people favoured one of the Big Two over the other, ecept that the names have now been reversed?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I think it's because comic book fans tend to be more rabid about their subject matter. It's like your last thing from being a kid.

 

I don't think I have expressed that well.

 

 

I disagree. I think you expressed it fine.

 

I know I started reading comics by about age 6, which is way before Star Wars saw the screens, when the attention span for an hour of Star Trek likely wasn't there and long before I would pick up a 350 page book (fuirst of three) and expect to see the back cover. Comics (at least for a lot of still-readers my age) certainly go back to earlier childhood than the other genres.

[csyphrett]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I always gravitated towards team books, Brave and Bold, DC Comics Presents, JLA, 2 in 1, All Star Squadron. Even as a kid, I preferred the mystery/adventure over the soap opera aspects.

 

First comic I ever had was an issue of Freedom Fighters where Uncle Sam was pimpsmacking a Captain America clone on the cover.

 

I guess that's why it bothers me that a lot of the modern comics reads like Jerry Springer without the platitude at the end.

 

They could do better in my opinion.

 

A lot better.

 

CES