DC's turn toward the dark

[Dominique]

Who here, besides me thinks that the recent tone in DC's books just ain't clicking? I've had sinking feeling about this whole Infinite Crisis thing for a while know,and every week it seems to get worse and worse. How many of you think it's a mistake?

[Kirby]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I am -well, was, 10 years ago- a huge DC fan. Ever since the "Doomsday/Death of Superman" event, I weened myself from the titles. I noticed they weren't as well-written as the previous 10 years. Being told of the 'current events' this last week, I'm very disappointed in what DC's doing. To me, it's not only changing the outlook, but it reeks of Marvel's discontinuity, and I stopped reading themm about 20 years ago.

 

I wouldn't mind being able to be in charge of DC Comics and kick these people out and micromanage the business for up to a year, remaking DC into the greatness it once was.

[Dominique]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

The reason it reaks of Marvel, is beacuse a huge number of DC's current crop of editors and writers are self admited "Marvel babies". I think are trying to make the DCU more like Marvel, and I truly think it's a big mistake. I think this is whole thing is going to go badly, and it's going to take years to clean up this huge mess they seem to have created for themselves. I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt it.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I think it's a huge... HUGE... mistake.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

My grasp of the English language isn't sufficient for me to describe how wrong, stupid, blind, and generally [bleep]-headed I think DC editorial has been and is being.

 

They're pretty much redefining the golden mean of "screwed up" as we speak.

[Dominique]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Aaron, I see your watching this thread, why not join in.

[csyphrett]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I would be okay with it if they didn't treat us the readers as idiots. The wonder woman thing is just one more thing on top of a lot of other things.

 

What's the point of bringing Hal Jordan back as a paladin of the right when everyone knows he mindwiped one of his friends to cover his hindquarters? If they are going to do that, I would rather he just stay dead.

CES

[shadow_walker]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I would post my thoughts about the DC thing, but I would get banned. So I'll just nod and say "no sir I don't like".

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I agree about the Justice League not mindwiping people. Maybe other superhero teams of lesser virtue, but not the Justice League. For that matter, such actions make a lot more sense in the Marvel Universe, where they have people like Charles Xavier mindwiping people left and right and always have from the beginning.

 

This is not to say that I think that the superheroes need to be total and complete paragons of virtues. I like the idea of Wonder Woman as an Amazon warrior who believes that in some cases you have to kill monsters. However I would have prefered that she not do it to a prisoner.

 

I would have been a lot happier with the death of Max Lord if Wonder Woman and Superman had been in a fight, with Wonder Woman slowly losing. Her lasso was taken from her by Superman. At that point, if she didn't do something to snap Superman out of it, she would have gotten killed. And Maxwell Lord snarkily boasts the only way to break his grip on Superman's mind is to kill him. Then Wonder Woman is perfectly within her rights, in the heat of battle to kill him.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I would have been a lot happier with the death of Max Lord if Wonder Woman and Superman had been in a fight' date=' with Wonder Woman slowly losing. Her lasso was taken from her by Superman. At that point, if she didn't do something to snap Superman out of it, she would have gotten killed. And Maxwell Lord snarkily boasts the only way to break his grip on Superman's mind is to kill him. Then Wonder Woman is perfectly within her rights, in the heat of battle to kill him.[/quote']

 

That would have been a far more convincing 'moral dilemna' than what we got, yes. Shades of Gruenwald's excellent work in the Captain America issue where Cap /had/ to shoot an ULTIMATUM hostage-taker, as the only possible way of stopping him from murdering the hostages right that second. He had Captain America break his CvK, on worldwide TV, and yet made it entirely believable, and the aftermath entirely appropriate.

 

*Unlike* the current OMAC PROJECT writing. Bleh.

[Dominique]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Gentlemen (ladies?) on this matter we are in complete agreement.

[Hermit]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

That would have been a far more convincing 'moral dilemna' than what we got, yes. Shades of Gruenwald's excellent work in the Captain America issue where Cap /had/ to shoot an ULTIMATUM hostage-taker, as the only possible way of stopping him from murdering the hostages right that second. He had Captain America break his CvK, on worldwide TV, and yet made it entirely believable, and the aftermath entirely appropriate.

 

I remember that one, and Cap's line after someone asked him what he was going to do now...

 

"To capture Flagsmasher and recover my honor ..." or something to that effect.

 

Choice work. Mark was a master.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I'll throw my vote in for DC's in a bad place.

[hooligan x]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I just dropped Outsiders because they turned my fav character Eeeviill and killed her. I dropped Nightwing because they're doing a crappy Wiseguy homage, and I am taking a break until Leifeld finishes urinating on my Titans. I dropped Robin because it looks like the book is penciled by Steven Hawkings. I still read Green Arrow but I always liked Ollie as a morally fallible man. and Connor is still tops in my book.

 

It's weird that I'm reading Marvel books for the writing! Thank god for JMS and Joss.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I agree about the Justice League not mindwiping people. Maybe other superhero teams of lesser virtue' date=' but not the Justice League. For that matter, such actions make a lot more sense in the Marvel Universe, where they have people like Charles Xavier mindwiping people left and right and always have from the beginning.[/quote']

 

Silver age DC in general, and JLA in particular, is full of examples where the heroes mistakenly find out about each other's secret ID's and/or others/the world does, followed by a mindwiping, most commonly from GL's ring.

 

Is retconning this out more acceptable than retconning a logical extrapolation of such actions in?

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Attempting to sentence Dr. Light to 'Death of Personality' and then mindwipe your own teammate to cover up your crime is no more a "reasonable extrapolation" of blipping people with the MiB neuralyzer to make them forget your name than strapping an arrested purse-snatcher to the wall and beating him with cattle prods is a "reasonable extrapolation" of wrestling him down and putting him in handcuffs.

[Blue]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I have no valid opinion old New DC v. Old DC. I didn't read DC as a kid. I couldn't get past how everyone was "-Lass", "-Boy" or "-Kid". Now I think that's part of the charm.

 

So I haven't noticed any "change" except to say that DC *now* is darker than Marvel *then*. Times change, companies that aren't making the money they used to begin to alter their product in hopes of more signs of life in their bank accounts, alienating existing customers in favor of kids who are used to visceral, blood-drenched video game style entertainment.

 

Of course if they'd realize that the reason synergy works on something like Spiderman works (A family movie with a classic conceptualization of the character, tied in to many, many products), you might see a little less darkness.

 

But I honestly don't blame the writers for this; they're writing what they're used to. It takes strong editorial direction to pull back on the reigns and sidestep the sensationalist crap.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

For a peek at the new DCU, I give you excerpts from DC's November advance solicitations. With snarky comments, natch.

 

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0508/15/dcnov.htm

 

I'm just going to post a few that caught my eye. Click here and read the whole thing to find more pain.

 

ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #646

 

Written by Greg Rucka, art and cover by Karl Kerschl.

 

Mxy is back! Lois confronts her would-be assassin -- and she must do it alone, because Superman has his hands full with a very different Mr. Mxyzptlk! And this time Mxy's no joke.

 

32 pages, $2.50, in stores on Nov. 23.

 

"... and this time Mxy's no joke." I'll take 'words mankind should never have heard' for a thousand, Alex.

 

 

NIGHTWING #114

 

Written by Devin Grayson, art and cover by Phil Hester and Ande Parks.

 

Nightwing is gone, and only Dick Grayson remains. He's been given a new costume and instructed to teach Deathstroke's daughter everything he knows. But Deathstroke is just waiting for an excuse to have Dick killed...

 

32 pages, $2.50, in stores on Nov. 9.

 

I don't want to know. I do NOT want to know...

 

 

SUPERGIRL #4

 

Written by Jeph Loeb, art by Ian Churchill and Norm Rapmund, covers by Chruchill and Rapmund and Michael Turner.

 

After the shocking twist at the end of last issue, what has happened to Supergirl that puts her face-to-face with the JLA in a battle she dare not win? What horrible truth has Lex Luthor uncovered that will change the Girl of Steel forever?

 

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 16.

 

Lex Luthor already got to do this lame plot with Superboy, dammit. And is Supergirl going to be picking fights with EVERYONE?!? (So far, she's already had a 'Marvel misunderstanding' with Power Girl, and is about to have one with Superboy... and that's just issue #1.)

 

 

BIRDS OF PREY #88

 

Written by Gail Simone, art by Joe Bennett and Jack Jadson, cover by Adriana Melo and Will Conrad.

 

From the pages of Villains United and Identity Crisis comes the deadly new Calculator -- and he's on the hunt for Oracle. It's the ultimate battle of the DCU's biggest information brokers, with their hand-picked teams caught in the crossfire.

 

32 pages, $2.50, in stores on Nov. 16.

 

A fight that /should/ last about ten minutes. But villains are uber nowadays, so he'll probably maul the hell out of her.

 

 

JLA #122

 

Written by Bob Harras, art by Tom Derenick and Dan Green, covers by Daniel Acuña.

 

"World Without a Justice League" Part 3 of 6! The Key has struck again! While half of what was the JLA investigates the bizarre murder scene, the other half looks to recruit a new member: Supergirl. But the entire group is called to action when OMACs appear on the scene.

 

32 pages, $2.50, in stores on Nov. 9.

 

Just the title alone...

[MitchellS]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

A lot of this "darkness" is just DC cleaning house. I have a feeling that DC will be just as shiney-happy as it always was a few months after everything has been realigned. It's a publicity stunt to get people to keep buying throw the whole house cleaning. A year from now most of us will probably be wondering what all the fuss was.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

NIGHTWING #114

 

Written by Devin Grayson, art and cover by Phil Hester and Ande Parks.

 

Nightwing is gone, and only Dick Grayson remains. He's been given a new costume and instructed to teach Deathstroke's daughter everything he knows. But Deathstroke is just waiting for an excuse to have Dick killed...

 

32 pages, $2.50, in stores on Nov. 9.

 

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

A lot of this "darkness" is just DC cleaning house. I have a feeling that DC will be just as shiney-happy as it always was a few months after everything has been realigned. It's a publicity stunt to get people to keep buying throw the whole house cleaning. A year from now most of us will probably be wondering what all the fuss was.

 

Tell me you're kidding.

[MitchellS]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

Tell me you're kidding.

Why would I be kidding? Some characters are dying [good and bad] and the comics will see some changes, but I don't believe they will be major changes. I've been through the deaths of Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, the crippling of Batman and Aquaman, the loss of idealism and its return, and more other plot-devices then I care to think about over the years [including a JLA team with people I didn't even know like Steel and Gypsy].

 

I don't really know what has everyone so worked up. Some second string characters are going bye-bye [blue Beetle], some old-timers [like Supergirl and Hal] are returning but for the most part nothing will really change.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

I don't really know what has everyone so worked up. Some second string characters are going bye-bye [blue Beetle]' date=' some old-timers [like Supergirl and Hal'] are returning but for the most part nothing will really change.

 

The interview with publisher Dan Didio say otherwise. Identity Crisis, Countdown, and Infinite Crisis are supposed to set the tone for the next 20 years of DC comics, said tone being distinctly different (and, obviously, darker) than what has come before.

[MitchellS]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

The interview with publisher Dan Didio say otherwise. Identity Crisis' date=' Countdown, and Infinite Crisis are supposed to set the tone for the next 20 years of DC comics, said tone being distinctly different (and, obviously, darker) than what has come before.[/quote']

That's assuming that Mr. Didio wasn't using misdirection [which he does quite often] and that he has a crystal ball and has any idea what the DC universe will be like even 5 years from now, let alone 20. Comics have a way of evolving in their own directions, which is why they need house cleaning after decade or two.

 

I think what you really have here is the idea that Identity Crisis was more popular than anyone anticipated, and now DC is going to run with the idea for a little while in the hopes of making some extra cash. Ultimately I don't believe things will be as dark as we are currently led to believe.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's turn toward the dark

 

> That's assuming that Mr. Didio wasn't using misdirection [which he

> does quite often]

 

Can you support this? Or are you merely wishing?

 

> and that he has a crystal ball and has any idea what the DC

> universe will be like even 5 years from now, let alone 20.

 

Dan Didio is the Vice President - Executive Editor of DC comics, hired in 2002 with a specific mandate to shake up the entire works from top to bottom. He is the chief operations guy of DC comics. IIRC, his job is what Marvel would call 'Editor-In-Chief'.

 

So for as long as he's working there, the DC universe will do /exactly/ WTF he tells it to do, and nothing else. He doesn't /need/ a 'crystal ball' to know which way the bus is gonna go... he's the bus driver.

 

Barring the sudden implosion of all sales for DC (and so far, Identity Crisis and its ilk are /raising/ sales, sadly), it is very likely that he will still have his job 5 years from now, and possible he'll have it for the next 20.

 

> Comics have a way of evolving in their own directions, which is why

> they need house cleaning after decade or two.

 

> I think what you really have here is the idea that Identity Crisis was

> more popular than anyone anticipated, and now DC is going to run

> with the idea for a little while in the hopes of making some extra cash.

 

Given that the outlines for 'Countdown' and 'Infinite Crisis' were blocked out before 'Identity Crisis' even hit the shelves, you are wrong. This entire ongoing metaplot was planned in advance.