Overwhelming PRE attacks

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

 

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

 

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. )

 

I personally think the concept is really cool.

 

I think you could have implemented the same idea a different way that didn't potentially unbalance the game.

 

Trebuchet's suggestion of a Change Environment: Really creepy feeling or some such is a really good one. You get an effect, it matches your SFX but does't immediately turn the battle to one side.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow.

True. Seeing the power level of the game, I am wondering if maybe the level of Pre is appropriate after all. Still the main villains shouldn't be scared too badly by it. So maybe the answer is that the main NPCs should have higher Pre/Ego or other appropriate defenses/countermeasures themselves. I don't see why mooks shouldn't be scared ****less by a 700-point character! Of course, maybe for a game of that high power mooks should themselves be more powerful than what we normal think of as a, "mook."

[garou]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

 

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. )

I know that Batman scares the bejeezus out of people (so does Spidey) - and most of the general populace doesn't care for them (at least, not in the same way that they feel for Superman or the Fantastic Four). All of the heroes mentioned have fairly high PRE, but it manifests in different ways.

 

Superman - you know that he's an overgrown Boy Scout. Uberpowerful, but he's not going to kill you if you surrender. He can fight a bad guy and demolish half of Metropolis, and people just shrug it off.

 

Batman - he probably won't kill you, but he can and will inflict permanent, crippling injuries, and you just know that someday, he's going to decide that the "kid gloves" method he has been using until now isn't working, and he's going to look at more permanent solutions. So, Batman gets hasseled by the cops (some, not all of course), the public thinks he's creepy and wrong, etc.

 

Ditto for FF and Spidey.

 

Since Dead Head has a high PRE, and it's based on Fear, plus the Distinctive Features and the low COM, it means that yes, bad guys will surrender - but that cops, the public, etc all won't like him. There will be calls for "someone to come rid the fair city of the monstrous menace that lurks within, this ghoulish vigilante who tortures his victims", etc. Random heroes might buy this, villains look at Dead Head as a possible recruit, bystanders start a class-action suit for emotional suffering (after all, everyone in the area can be effected by a PRE attack - and bystanders really aren't on your side, even as a hero) etc. (You do have a negative rep as creepy, undead superhero, right? Odds are good you're going to have the rep anyway, might as well gets the points for it.)

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Dead Head's actually on a supers team (or, rather, will soon be) based on Malagar IV (the Capital of the Galactic Federation; this is as was said a Champions 3000 game). He has the Perk: Interstellar Police Powers. [Though this character is based on one used in another RPG, one where for the most part the PC's were solo vigilantes, but semi-regularly worked as a team.]

 

No, he does not have a rep as an Undead Monster, since he only recently got off his home planet, so is only now just getting to be known. This first mission he's been sent on is in fact his first foray into the public eye; 'till now, he's been quarantined in science & medical facilities as techies studied him and tried to figure out what made him tick, and why he of all the undead on his home planet doesn't crave warm, living, tasty brains. (My first draft of the character had the Disadvantage "Social Limitation: Dead," reflecting the fact that in all societies [all Terran ones, anyway], the dead have no legal rights whatsoever, but this was removed.)

 

One of the concepts for this character that I have stuck to in all his iterations is to in fact have him be to the Malagar team what Batman is to the JLA -- the uber-creepy spectre of doom focusing on infiltration, interrogation, and intimidation, dealing with cannon-fodder Mooks while the others deal with the main threat.

[sinanju]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

 

1. Give every NPC some PRE Defense...or a LOT of PRE Defense, if necessary.

 

2. Subject _their_ characters to opponents with insane levels of PRE and see how they like it when THEY'RE the ones reduced to sobbing, cringing wretches begging for mercy. Then tell them that the GM can win any arms race with his players, so maybe they'd like to actually, you know, LISTEN when you tell them not to go for outrageous PRE scores.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Great thread, and a whole lot of good answers...

 

The way I see it, if all your PCs want to use 20d presence attacks, then you start using them back. It's the old GMing theory of reaping what you sew. If all my PCs fire is AP/EX ammo, then guess what? Obviously AP/EX ammo is far more common than I realized so all my bad guys will start using it too, they learned from watching the PCs, seemed to work for them.

 

Have yourself a sit down and consider the highly inconvenient ramifications of god like presence, add a splash of amusement, stir, let chill for a few game sessions, serve cold.

 

Let's take Dead Head for example (sorry!) 30 PRE +40 PRE only for fear. Boy I'd be careful where I used that, bystanders beware! People running in every direction, old ladies having coronaries, accidents, tramplings... eesh, that could get ugly. What of Gorgeous Man with his gleaming teeth and PRE of 50? You think Brad Pitt can't go out in public? Try it with 50 PRE.

 

People camped around your house/lair/last place you were seen... with the praying and the chanting and the constant declarations of love...

 

I think maybe they haven't considered all the implications.

 

Sunday

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

There are indeed a lot of great answers on this thread-- interesting dillema you're in as well; generally pwer level problems revolve around damage!

 

Before implementing any of the other ideas in this thread, I think I'd try talking to the players first as many have suggested. If that doesn't work, then go into some of the ideas presented. Start with the mechanical suggestions such as opponents who don't respond to PRE, modifiers to the roll, etc. I really would save 'punishing' the players as an absolute last resort; it's no fun for you or them, and can leave a sour taste in all y'alls mouths.

 

 

Good luck.

 

Duke

[gojira]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

True. Seeing the power level of the game' date=' I am wondering if maybe the level of Pre is appropriate after all. .... I don't see why mooks [i']shouldn't[/i] be scared ****less by a 700-point character! Of course, maybe for a game of that high power mooks should themselves be more powerful than what we normal think of as a, "mook."

Bingo.

 

I just want to emphasize, now that we've heard from the player's side of the story, that I feel Prestidigitator is on the right track. Too much advice here is of the "sock it to the players" type right now.

 

First, is there a range limit to PRE? I've got old rules so I'm not sure if this is treated in the 5th ed. If not, just figure that PRE is limited to about 50 feet or so. That's reasonable. It's the characters PRESENCE that we're talking about here, and if he ain't present, it don't count. Sure, those mooks right in front of Evil Death Head Guy are gonna faint, run away, poop their leotards, etc. But those mooks 150 meters down range are gonna think "Nows my chance to get that scary dude while he's busy scaring someone else."

 

(No range, or increased range at least, plus some set and braced, would be appropriate here. No 50 point mook is gonna go up against a 700 point god if he doesn't have a decent weapon, not for any money.)

 

Second, USE MORE MOOKS. Like about a 100 or more. That way, Evil Death Head Guy can have fun scaring lots of mooks, and the mooks will at least get a few shots in. This is obvious. If you're a 1500 point super villian, are you gonna throw the hired help at these guys 10 at a time? I think not.

 

Also, I'd rule that FEAR does not cause someone to obey you. Run away, faint, poop their leotards -- yes. Obey, no. Fear can also cause someone to go bananas and attack with all they've got (autofire, close range), but this shouldn't be too often. There's no special disadvantage needed for this, it's called self-preservation.

 

Lastly, a smart 1500 point super villian isn't going to use only 50 point mooks. Those guys are like imps in Dungeon Keeper. Get some 250 point villian cannon fodder, some 400 lieutenants, some 700 point captains and mix it up a little. When I was playing Champions, the GM would always add a 250 villian to lead the 50 point mooks. This is when characters started at 250 points. Meaning those 50 point mooks were worth one fifth of our characters (on fifth of 700 is 140. Think about it.)

 

 

 

Well, that's about all I got. I really think you as GM just need to be a little more flexible, and up the power level of your campaign so that the players can have a decent challenge. That should be more fun that just making one Acrobatics roll and a PRE roll and having every adventure end right there. For both players and GM.

 

That'll take some work. Maybe get the people here to help you with figuring out a decent challenge, point levels that'll give these players a decent showing. I'll recomend that you check out The New Circle thread by Oddhat. Use The Master (the 1500 point version); make him The Evil Master, an evil lich from the nineth dimension. Whatever affects desolid attacks the players have, it won't affect the The Evil Master becuase this nineth dimension stuff is totally beyond them. (Figuring out how to take this guy down on his home turf will take a long time, and should be a campaign ending event.) Meanwhile, the Evil Master is ploting to suck this dimension dry of energy, because his dimension is out of energy and nearing entropy death (Bush got elected there too).

 

Now get people to make up some captains and lieutenants for ya.

[sinanju]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

I just want to emphasize' date=' now that we've heard from the player's side of the story, that I feel Prestidigitator is on the right track. Too much advice here is of the "sock it to the players" type right now.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but that's only after Randi posted that he'd tried putting limits on PRE and the players responded by rules-lawyering their way around those limits. I've been playing with rules lawyers for many years quite happily, but the key is that the GM _must_ enforce the limits he finds necessary in his game or they'll walk all over you.

 

It may be that Dr Archville sincerely believes his PC needs an effective PRE of 70 vs street thugs. I think that's absurd. But more importantly, the GM thinks its excessive--and that's all that really ought to matter.

 

Sometimes you have to get their attention before they listen.

[Phil]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

One suggestion no-one has made is monitoring char-gen a bit tighter. 20d6 presence attack is exceptional. Why is it so high? What is the rationale for that character having such an incredible presence? If you cant come up with a convincing explanation (and more than "he's a really impressive guy" - impressive is a PRE of 25 or 30), you cant have the power.

 

The other thing to remember is Active Point limits. The way I interpret these is to apply them across the board to everything, including stats. So with a 60 pt Active Point limit, you cannot have a Presence attack (inc. cost of PRE) that is more than 60 points. That will at least keep the maximum down to some extent.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

70 total PRE in a 700pt Character whose schtick is FEAR is not overwhelmingly powerful.

 

Would a 35 PRE be overwhelming in a 350pt game?

 

A 70PRE in a 350pt game would be unbalancing for sure.

 

Seems the real problem is that you don't think the concept works well at that level [700pts], in your game. Perhaps asking him to make a new character, not based on Fear, is your answer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Please, please tell me that the character(s) don't have +60 PRE as a multipower slot.....

 

Anyway, you could introduce them to Humiliator who has scads of AE (selective) PRE defence and Drain: PRE (AE: radius), lengthy recovery (5 points per week) 0 END always on continuous (and, if necessary NND) at 40 points per 1d6 (60 active, or a bit more with the NND - if they all have lots of power defence too).

 

Humiliator makes them feel dirty.

 

It isn't going to help in this fight: they will still have a lot of PRE at the start and can probably scare the pants off people, but by the end of the fight they'll all be a lot less self confident and impressive for quite a while.

 

Then again there's always radiation accidents

 

Actually there are a lot of things you CAN do, but the point is you are going to upset the players: if they can't use their favourite power and they are not willing to be reasonable about changing the character build to improve the game, then they are not going to be reasonable about your cunning ways to get around their favourite powers.

 

Be prepared for fall out, or fallings out, or both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

70 total PRE in a 700pt Character whose schtick is FEAR is not overwhelmingly powerful.

 

Would a 35 PRE be overwhelming in a 350pt game?

 

A 70PRE in a 350pt game would be unbalancing for sure.

 

Seems the real problem is that you don't think the concept works well at that level [700pts], in your game. Perhaps asking him to make a new character, not based on Fear, is your answer.

 

I quite agree with your conclusion. Wise words, and I'm going to say the same thing with lots more words, but no more wisdom.

 

You can't simply scale up though. A 70 point PRE is most certainly overwhelming if none of the opposition have more than 30. Moreover, 70 PRE is the very lower end of the scale here: we are talking 15-20d6, so 75-100 PRE is more the ticket, unless the GM is being stupidly generous with bonuses. What are they playing? Great Cthulu?

 

15d6 is 52 points of effect, or PRE+20 on a 30PRE (which I consider to be quite a decent total, even in a quite high powered game). 20d6 is 70 points: PRE+40 - instant surrender. You'd need 40 PRE not to instantly surrender, and that is just on an average roll, more like 50 or 60 to be safe, and if that is REQUIRED, it seems the character is skewing the game, and that is not a good thing.

 

Moreover, if the villains all need 50 or 60 PRE that is 40 or 50 points they are not spending on other powers, which weakens them against the rest of the team. Moreover you wind up with a spending war: everyone putting XP on PRE, which is silly too.

 

You can run every dodge in the book: automatons, mirror-world evil duplicates, ya-da ya-da ya-da, but you will run out of options and you will either have to repeat ad-nauseam or slide down to unprecedented levels of boredom.

 

The ONLY solution I can see here is the players wising up and being reasonable. If a GM tells you 'I am not happy with the way that power works', or, simply 'No', then you listen. Talk it out, by all means, but abide by the GM's decision.

 

There seems in some sectors to be a belief that restriction is a bad thing and that freedom to play anything you want is what this game is all about. Rubbish. This game, and all games of this ilk are about a group of people enjoying themselves. If they are not, someone, somewhere is doing something very wrong.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Actually, Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I don't "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

 

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Actually' date=' Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I [i']don't[/i] "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

 

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).

 

Don't get me wrong - I personally feel your concept is just fine. The GM obviously has some reservations.

 

I suggest instead of just toning down the PRE you adjsut the effects of the PRE into some other type of thing. A Fear based aura of the Undead doesn't have to translate into just PRE: Fear Only.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Actually' date=' Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I [i']don't[/i] "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

 

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).

 

 

First off, apologies: didn't mean to come over all judgemental. I was just looking at it from the GM POV as that is what started the thread. GM says it is a game breaker: do you agree? Do you win too many fights too easily?

 

As a GM and player, I tend to be more lenient on GMs, assuming that, if they come up with a monster villain (in the literal or figurative sense) then they have some way for the players to beat it/circumvent it/triumph. Mind you, as a player I've had some really good GMs.

 

As a GM I tend not to like players with 'all or nothing/threshold' powers, although I admit it does depend on the player and the game: point is I may have a bit of a bias

 

Finally I'm not keen on PRE mechanics anywway. Yes, Batman scares the bejeezus out of people but NOT most villains and not even all the mooks: they fight as often as they surrender. A big PRE attack scares every mook, and most of the villains.

 

However, I am willing to listen. (Which makes me sound like some kinda swami. Definitely not )

 

Can I suggest adding 'only v mooks/the fearful' to your PRE attack: OK it is metagaming, but it will make the GM happy his villains aren't giving up instantly and make you happy that you get to terrify people. I'd define mooks as 'anyone with less than half your active point total who doesn't have 'fear based' defences and 'the fearful' as anyone with an appropriate disadvantage. That's putting a lot of trust in your GM: it might be worth it. It is probably worth at least -1: the ones you terrify you could KO with no trouble anyway: it is just crowd control.

 

Second, those spare points, can I suggest you buy negative skill rolls and call them 'In the grip of fear': whoever you fight loses OCV - they really are scared of hitting you.

 

Just a thought.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed, 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.

 

I do like the "Only vs. Mooks" thing for his extra PRE. Something like "only works vs. characters built on 225 Character Points or less" (PCs in this campaign are built on 550 + 150 Disad points) would seem alright... Randi? Any chance I can get +15 PRE with that limit?

 

The OCV penalties would be Change Environment w/ Selective, right? Hrm.. not sure how much I can get of that (27 points freed up from dropping the +40 PRE, but the power would need to include Reduced END (0 END; +1/2) b/c Dead Head has no Endurance (he's a quasi-Automaton-ish Undead).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

I have a good feeling about this .

 

Randi: what do you think?

[Foxiekins]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed' date=' 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.[/quote']

 

 

Okay, if you'll pardon me butting in with some advice, I think this touches on the essense of the matter... Your character, in his first fight, jumped in on a raging battle, and put a stop to it with one action... In other words, you stole the scene away from the other 5 players... Why would they continue to play, if this continues to happen...?

 

If I were GMing, that incident would have touched off all kinds of danger signals for me as well, and I'd guess that's what prompted him to start this thread... One of the things I've learned over the years is that players hate having fights ended for them... If they're being beaten, it's a rescue... But if not, then it's just their character being made useless and redundant, and who would like that...?

 

Hopefully the changes you're making will alleviate the situation... The kicker I think, really, was the scream... It was effectively an indiscriminate Area Effect... Your character might work as written if you lay off the screaming...

[radioKAOS]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Hopefully the changes you're making will alleviate the situation... The kicker I think, really, was the scream... It was effectively an indiscriminate Area Effect... Your character might work as written if you lay off the screaming...

 

Actually yeah, take a limitation on the PRE -requires eye contact... [3 hexes range according to the book]

 

You corner a punk, look into his eyes. He sees the damnation of a million burning souls, and collapses from fear...

 

Add the Change Environment stuff and you're still 'in character' without breaking the game...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

One of the concepts for this character that I have stuck to in all his iterations is to in fact have him be to the Malagar team what Batman is to the JLA -- the uber-creepy spectre of doom focusing on infiltration' date=' interrogation, and intimidation, dealing with cannon-fodder Mooks while the others deal with the main threat.[/quote']

Then again, I hate to say it, but thinking like a GM of a 700-point campaign: "Okay. Dead Head goes and terrorizes all the mooks. Now, back to the action...." Mooks are mooks because they are rarely the center of attention.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed' date=' 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.[/quote']

 

Ok, if that was his entrance to the group ... you should get extra experience points. That is a spectacular entrance.

 

If that becomes his schtick and a regular action ... then you've got a problem.

 

One instance of anything is not, and should not, be completely game breaking. It might short circuit the Plot Of The Moment. but that happens all the time. It's when we get into multiple instances of this type of thing - which is what the GM first implied with the original post - then some changes need to occur.

 

So - GM, Randi - how often has this type of issue occured?

[Old Man]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Let the PRE Attacks work.

 

Fine, the bad guys hand themselves over to the police. What happens when the scary hero isn't around anymore?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Oooh! Nasty!