Disadvantage

[Sean Waters]

You know what we haven't churned over for a dog's age? The relative cost/benefit of disadvantages.

 

Take, for example, dependence. If you have to eat a bowl of pasta every five minutes or lose your powers on an 11- activation, you get 20 points.

 

If you have a normal NPC partner who doesn't know you are Captain Colossal, and manages to involve themselves in your adventures on 11-, then you get 20 points.

 

If you become enraged in combat on 11- (recovery 14-) you get 20 points.

 

If you have a code v killing you get 20 points.

 

If you take 2d6 damage a phase from Throbmoanium you get 20 points

 

If you take double damage from fire you get 20 points.

 

I do appreciate that it is not just about the points: the opportunity for role playing and character development can not be ignored BUT, there really doesn't seem to be much parity between the cost/benefit.

 

Take Dependence/Enraged/DNPC - the examples above all feature 11- rolls one way or another. Which is going to be the biggest PITA? The pasta, right?

 

Dependence and Vulnerability seem to be far too low point to make any sense other than 'my character is clearly far too powerful - I best take this or the GM won't let me play.....'

 

Even if the absolute points benefit doesn't make that that much of a difference, where is the parity with code v killing (how many heroes kill anyway, whether it be through a code, common sense, or simple inability to kill someone like Stoneman?

 

How often is the team brick going to go into a fight and just hit stuff constantly? Why should enraged be a problem then?

 

The point benefit of the 'damaging' disadvantages seems far too low to me.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris-M]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I tend to agree, even moreso, I think, for stuff like the 2X Stuns. Having a 2X Stun to something that really is common in the genre, like Fire attacks, is way more of a problem than an equivalent amount of DNPCs and Enrageds.

 

While I think that the dependences and vulnerabilities probably are a little too low points-wise, the discrepency isn't really that bad -- IF the GM holds the characters proverbial feet to the fire on 'em. The problem is that it's easier for a GM to get the points out of a 2X Stun from Cold Attacks or a Dependency on frozen pizza to maintain one's powers than for most Psych Lims, DNPCs, and so forth. I think it's just a lot harder to tell a player, "You're not playing your character right," than to just hit 'em with a 10d6 attack they're vulnerable to.

 

And even some disads, like DNPC or Hunteds, that should be non-fuzzy never really get utilized to their fullest. If you have a group of six heroes and you actually had their Hunteds and DNPCs involved as often as the probabilities dictate they should, it would just ridiculous. I suppose you could fix that as a GM by forbidding players from buying 14-, or maybe even 11- disads in those categories, which effectively makes those categories worth less points since now the players will have to buy other disads to make up the difference.

 

Sorry, it's late and now I'm rambling. :-)

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Disadvantage

 

If you take 2d6 damage a phase from Throbmoanium

 

I don't know, and I don't wanna know!!!

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I never did like hunteds, it always seemed like a way for a character to get the points and the whole team to suffer the pain. I supose in a FH type setting you can arrange ambushes when buddy is comming back from the outhouse and the like, but that leaves the other players sitting around with nothing to do.

 

Having party hunteds however would not have this problem at all.

 

And yes an 11- or 14- is way too high.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage

 

This is the one area where I just go 'Ah, just make 'em interesting' and leave it at that because the point value of any given disadvantage will vary so wildly from game to game to game trying to recost them would give me a headache. In fact just thinking about it gives me an eye twitch.

 

Because I've not seen anyone take less than the full Disad allotment, so everyone essentially has 100pts of "Stuff the GM can use to mess you with you if he needs ideas." and "Quirks you roleplay that are not advantageous so you are more interesting than a cardboard cutout at the local video store."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Very good point on banning 11- or 14- stuff: mind you that leaves you with a lot more 8- stuff to roll for....

 

The problem is compounded if, say, you are running a scenario where you have no villains with 'ice blast', and a character with vulnerability to ice and cold. OK it is up to the GM to ensure the pain is shared around equally, but I don't know: it seems to me that can become very artificial very quickly.

 

Disadvantages are meant to be there for plot hooks and the like. IME, unless you are playing a very freeform, non-plotted game, they tend to be either ignored or a positive hinderance most of the time - which is why the combat oriented ones can be so nasty: they probably will come up at some point, and when they do, they are not going to be ignored. I mean, if you have 4 players in a standard supers game, that's 600 points of disadvantages. They can quickly come to rule the game.

 

One heretical way to deal with them, of course, is to cut the number of points that come from disadvantages. Say cut them right down: they don't need any disad points at all - standard supers get 350 base points. Allow the players to take some if they like, and say that their XP awards are doubled until the books balance, so, you have a 350 point character with 100 points of disads - their first 50 points of XP will count double.

 

This should:

 

a) encourage more creative use of disads without having them become overwhelming or just get ignored,

mean that new heroes tend to improve quicker than older, more experienced heroes, which is as it should be IMO.

 

If you do go this way, it should be made clear that disads will come up and will be used, and I'd probably put a cap on the amount of disads a character can take. Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Very good point on banning 11- or 14- stuff: mind you that leaves you with a lot more 8- stuff to roll for....

 

The problem is compounded if, say, you are running a scenario where you have no villains with 'ice blast', and a character with vulnerability to ice and cold. OK it is up to the GM to ensure the pain is shared around equally, but I don't know: it seems to me that can become very artificial very quickly.

 

Disadvantages are meant to be there for plot hooks and the like. IME, unless you are playing a very freeform, non-plotted game, they tend to be either ignored or a positive hinderance most of the time - which is why the combat oriented ones can be so nasty: they probably will come up at some point, and when they do, they are not going to be ignored. I mean, if you have 4 players in a standard supers game, that's 600 points of disadvantages. They can quickly come to rule the game.

 

One heretical way to deal with them, of course, is to cut the number of points that come from disadvantages. Say cut them right down: they don't need any disad points at all - standard supers get 350 base points. Allow the players to take some if they like, and say that their XP awards are doubled until the books balance, so, you have a 350 point character with 100 points of disads - their first 50 points of XP will count double.

 

This should:

 

a) encourage more creative use of disads without having them become overwhelming or just get ignored,

mean that new heroes tend to improve quicker than older, more experienced heroes, which is as it should be IMO.

 

If you do go this way, it should be made clear that disads will come up and will be used, and I'd probably put a cap on the amount of disads a character can take. Thoughts?

The idea has some merit, would certainly focus on Disads that meant more to the character and the concept of the character.

 

Too bad I don't have the time to run a campaign long enough to fully test this out.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I liked this concept. It was one of the many things that attracted me to DC Heroes instead of Champions. One of things I always had to explain to players was that only having a secret id as a Drawback was acceptable. Burdening your character down like a psychotic champions character that takes damage from breathing was a bad idea.

 

How many points in Disads does Nightwing have anyway? Superboy? Orion?

 

Hawksmoor

[Vanguard00]

Re: Disadvantage

 

One of my old GM's taught me a few things about disadvantages and their uses. He often used the disadvantages listed on a character sheet, just not in the way we'd expect.

 

For example, one of my hunted's managed to hit the very bank at which my PC patronized. It wasn't a "hey, this villain is here! Go get him!" It was more along the lines of "while you're out doin' whatever, you hear the report of your bank being hit and your money being taken. It'll take several days before your money is released. By the way, rent's due..."

 

Hunteds have been used by me and against me in a variety of ways without the hunted ever actually being seen. I believe it's up to the GM to make 'em worth their points, and it can be done.

 

In another situation, which ties in to the ice/cold vulnerability example above, my character was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and got nailed by freon (or something similar) while we were helping to fight a chemical fire. I twitched whenever I saw even a small fire extinguisher after that, much less if I saw a tanker truck or something.

 

The enraged thing I used on a guy when his PC beat the tar out of a baddie, but he wouldn't stop hitting him, even after he was down. The whole thing was caught on film and became a PR nightmare.

 

If someone tries to pick some esoteric compound or material to take damage from (i.e. throbmoanium, which I never wanna know its origin), I will often work it into the storyline that that very same material is now being used in some way where the PC might come into contact with it.

 

I know some of y'all can break it down with numbers and such, but I tend to try to aim for usage over alteration. I can work with the points as they stand just fine without worrying about changing the roll numbers, the costs, etc.

 

Just my two pennies.

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I never did like hunteds, it always seemed like a way for a character to get the points and the whole team to suffer the pain. I supose in a FH type setting you can arrange ambushes when buddy is comming back from the outhouse and the like, but that leaves the other players sitting around with nothing to do.

 

Having party hunteds however would not have this problem at all.

 

And yes an 11- or 14- is way too high.

I disagree. Inflicting pain should not be the purpose of any disadvantage. It should be an adventure hook to involve the PCs with a personal connection. If I don't know what to set up for the next adventure and one of the team members has a Hunted Disad which has come up or which hasn't come up in a while and is due (yes GMs do that sometimes without rolling dice randomly), at least one member of the team has the opportunity to be the star of the adventure and really shine.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Disadvantage

 

One issue I have in Fantasy Hero at least is that if you can get up to say 50 or 75 points in disads, players will do anything to get the full allotment of disads. What ever happened to characters who are ordinary or with just one or two quirks.

 

From what I've seen it seems to encourage a bit of munchkinism. You need the extra points to keep up with the others, but unless your character concept fits in well with the disads, too often you just toss things in, or change concept.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I don't know' date=' and I don't wanna know!!![/quote']

 

Oh you do....

 

Interesting stuff, but my advice is never make it into armour. First hot sets it vibrating and the character spends the rest of the combat either thrashing around on the floor or drooling in a corner.

 

Apparently...

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I disagree. Inflicting pain should not be the purpose of any disadvantage.

 

But inflicting pain is the result of some of those disads, like say double damage from purple dinosaurs.

 

Looking at the rules from a munshkinish prospective, the thought does occur, why take something that will hurt me, when I can take something that will hurt everyone. If you knock out one character, thats fine, but the DM can't toss a hunted at a group which will take everyone out, he would just have to cut back elsewhere.

 

If anything, perhaps having a hunted could be a 0 pointer, in any scenerio you can only do so much fighting till you go under, having hunteds just gives a DM ideas what to throw at you.

[schir1964]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Another Technique:

 

Require the players to take a "YTBD Disadvantage" at whatever level you think appropriate.

 

YTBD = Yet To Be Determined

 

These points have no effect initially. The the campaign progresses the GM can determine if the characters have obtained a Hunted via combat with villian(s) or perhaps they have acquired a Social: Reputation.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

But inflicting pain is the result of some of those disads, like say double damage from purple dinosaurs.

 

Looking at the rules from a munshkinish prospective, the thought does occur, why take something that will hurt me, when I can take something that will hurt everyone. If you knock out one character, thats fine, but the DM can't toss a hunted at a group which will take everyone out, he would just have to cut back elsewhere.

 

If anything, perhaps having a hunted could be a 0 pointer, in any scenerio you can only do so much fighting till you go under, having hunteds just gives a DM ideas what to throw at you.

Well, you are right about the pain infliction of those kinds of Disads. But if a player takes points for extra damage from purple dinosaurs in our campaign, rest assured, not only can I promise that eventually purple dinosaurs will appear, I can also promise that they have to potential to hurt the PC, no matter how munchkinish one thinks the construction of their web of powers. As GM, I have an infinite number of points.

 

That having been said, if a player designs a PC with a Disad that is either unbalancing for the campaign or rest of the team or not a real Disad, then my prefered method would be to tell the player before the character gets played and someone gets upset about it and work with them on an alternative or at least a tweek. Some players complain that GMs are hosing their character becuse "that was my concept" but if a player is really so selfish that they don't care about the rest of the players or the campaign appropriateness itself, then we know who the problem really is.

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Another Technique:

 

Require the players to take a "YTBD Disadvantage" at whatever level you think appropriate.

 

YTBD = Yet To Be Determined

 

These points have no effect initially. The the campaign progresses the GM can determine if the characters have obtained a Hunted via combat with villian(s) or perhaps they have acquired a Social: Reputation.

 

- Christopher Mullins

My only problem with YTBD is that Disads also are important in defining the PC and their motivations. Not only the players have to roleplay. So do GMs. Knowing that characters are overconfident, or honorable or hate spiders, or distrustful of men is important to a GM designing a universe.

 

A GM should be engaged in interactive fiction, to quote Trebuchet, and be fun for everyone. Anyone sufficiently familiar with the rules can construct a stack of numbers optimized for attack and defense based on numerical probabilities for the points involved. How boring. As a player, I find that victory is only sweet when the encounters have sufficient challenge to make the possibility of the hero's defeat real.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Because I've not seen anyone take less than the full Disad allotment

I have...my friend Nathaniel, the first time he created a character. (The HERO system was also his first role-playing experience. Actually, as much as I love the HERO system [it's one of my two favorites], I thought it might be a bit much for someone who had never roleplayed before, and tried to steer him away from it, but he was stubborn. "You've told me about the advantages and disadvantages of all these systems -- " [points at 3 6-foot-tall bookcases full of RPG books] " -- and it sounds like HERO will let me do what I have in mind for a character.")

 

Near the end of character creation, Nathaniel's character (this was under 4th ed, so it was 250 points max) came in at 215 points, with Disads to balance that out. In other words, a "complete" character at 215 points, with 115 in Disads. I pointed out to Nathaniel that he could take up to 35 points more in Disads, and give the character a few more abilities (or boost some he already had). He looked the character over again and then said "No, I'm happy with him as he is. Can we try him out? Just a bit?" (It was just past midnight. Of course I said "Yes." )

[tesuji]

Re: Disadvantage

 

On the point cost for disads... its all about what the Gm is gonna do. When i agree to allow 20 pts for a and 20 pts for b i am telling both players i will (ab)use this equally on them. if i don't feel i will be able to do so, i change a cost.

 

the points aren't "right" as they sit in the book. The Gm runs his game and his scenario choices make it look like the points are right, or not.

 

The same thing works for most any power or SFX. If the Gm decides the primary villains are a werewolf cult, mr silver sword slinger is probably gonna do better than mr lightning UNLESS the Gm actively works to prevent this, also by script control.

 

As for how much disad, i found dropping disads from 150 to 100 worked better and i would go to only 50 pts from disads in my next hero game. more than that and players are starting to be taking them "for the points" IMX

 

The option i prefer to this method (loan shark disads) is the pay-as-you-go.

 

In pay-as-you-go, you don't get points up front for disads. Instead, whenever disads BITE in a scenario, you get a bonus. Some games give you bonbus Xp for the session while others give hero points.

 

this means you don't NEED to take any, you dont have to worry in advance about how frequent and severe (use HINDSIGHT not FORESIGHT) and you really do not have to script for balance... just script what you want and the reward and punishment will flow together like as if by magic

 

one final edge here, the PLAYER is encouraged by Payp to look at disads which will show obvious and meaningful problems in play, because that has to be seen for him to get pts. That puts he and the Gm in harmony, not at odds as much as the current.

[schir1964]

Re: Disadvantage

 

My only problem with YTBD is that Disads also are important in defining the PC and their motivations. Not only the players have to roleplay. So do GMs. Knowing that characters are overconfident, or honorable or hate spiders, or distrustful of men is important to a GM designing a universe.

 

A GM should be engaged in interactive fiction, to quote Trebuchet, and be fun for everyone. Anyone sufficiently familiar with the rules can construct a stack of numbers optimized for attack and defense based on numerical probabilities for the points involved. How boring. As a player, I find that victory is only sweet when the encounters have sufficient challenge to make the possibility of the hero's defeat real.

How does this prevent the players from "Defining the PC"?

 

Well, I guess I should have mentioned that I don't restrict the total number/points of Disadvantages you can have. The characters have to be run by me anyway before they are approved, so anything that appears to be crippling or overpowerful are rejected and returned for rewrite.

 

Addendum: Also, I really like to run "Genesis Scenarios" where I create the players powers sets for them and they have to figure them out. I guess it depends on the level of trust between the players and GM.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Jhamin]

Re: Disadvantage

 

If you have to eat a bowl of pasta every five minutes or lose your powers on an 11- activation, you get 20 points.

 

If you have a normal NPC partner who doesn't know you are Captain Colossal, and manages to involve themselves in your adventures on 11-, then you get 20 points.

 

I have long maintained that the Dependence rules are hobbled to the point of uselessness.

 

I'd hate to be aquaguy in the desert, but according to the rules needing to be completely immersed in salt water 1 hour out of every 24 isn't a limit worth mentioning.

 

Fiction (especially comics and anime) are filled with characters that need to do something every day or dire things happen. This sounds like a depencence to me, but under current rules it is worth nothing.

 

Thats right. Nothing. Buying any amount of damage or effect far enough up the time chart as to not kill you in 3 phases results in the disad not being worth anything.

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

How does this prevent the players from "Defining the PC"?

 

Well, I guess I should have mentioned that I don't restrict the total number/points of Disadvantages you can have. The characters have to be run by me anyway before they are approved, so anything that appears to be crippling or overpowerful are rejected and returned for rewrite.

 

Addendum: Also, I really like to run "Genesis Scenarios" where I create the players powers sets for them and they have to figure them out. I guess it depends on the level of trust between the players and GM.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Actually, as long as both the players and GMs know what they are in for up front, I don't have any problem at all with this method. Sounds like a fun approach.

 

The genesis type games can be fun occasionally, but one of the best parts of Champions and Hero, IMHO is that unlike the "other " game system, a new Hero player character can have enough background and expertise not to be "Frist level' or a novice/rookie. Thus, under this origin, not only do the PCs know what their heroes can do, they are darn good at it too.

 

You are spot on about the need for trust between players and GM in either approach, though.

[Cancer]

Re: Disadvantage

 

But inflicting pain is the result of some of those disads' date=' like say double damage from purple dinosaurs. [/quote']

 

Cancer goes berserk at the mention of purple dinosaurs and destroys all the TV sets in his sight.

 

That's a hell of a Psychlim to trigger in a sports bar at playoffs time, incidentally.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Disadvantage

 

#1> I've always felt that the baseline point system has always given too many points for disadvantages. I use 100+50 for Heroic and 250+100 for Superheroic as starting points myself.

 

#2> The balance between the value of combat vs non-combat disadvantages depends heavily on the GM. If you aren't putting enough emphasis on non-combat situations the combat disadvantages are going to seem undervalued (that is, the points you get is too low for what it costs).

 

#3> However, I think the common mistake of having low STUN scores relative to DC/DEF values makes this problem more visible. If like most published 5th Ed characters you are in negative STUN after two average hits from your main attack, don't put all the blame at the feet of your vulnerability that makes it one average hit instead...

 

#4> The timeline value of Disadvantage makes it impractical for many uses it otherwise seems intended for. I have never had a player take this disadvantage, ever, even in campaigns where I mandated 25 pts of Vulnerablity/Susceptibility/Dependence disadvantages, in the 15+ years we've played the system. Ever. At the very least, the "zero" value should be moved to the 5-8 hour mark, perhaps the 1 day mark...

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Totally agree on Dependence. Any game I’ve been in that required a dependence-like ability just used Phys Lims or Susceptibility instead.

 

NCM is just . . . wrong. If you don’t buy high stats it’s not a disadvantage, and if you do it massively punishes you for your character concept. It doesn’t even stop you from buying powers. All it does is encourage GMs to harass martial artists, skill monsters and gadgeteers.

 

Hunted is an ADVANTAGE, not a disadvantage. If you’re playing a RPG, you’re GOING to have enemies. All Hunted does, most of the time, is insure that you know who some of those enemies are beforehand, and that you personally will get a disproportionate amount of story-time dealing with them.

 

Free camera-time is NOT a disadvantage. And if they’re too tough, the rest of the party can deal with them for you.

 

Now, an utter bastard like myself will make you actually suffer for your hunteds, but that requires a looser playing style than a lot of GMs use.

 

Odd how there’s been so many enhanced options for powers, and skills, but the 5th edition disad list is barely different from the 2nd. (and maybe the first, but I never saw that one)

 

Most of my games used 100 or 125 points of disads, instead of 150. I’ve found that even experienced players tend to start reaching after the first hundred, and newbies even more so.

 

---

Ura-Maru considers ‘You bastard!!’ to be the highest complement a GM can receive.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I forgot about that aspect wrt Hunted, that over time you will develop hunteds anyways,,, if you are any good

 

Same thing for rep, might as well get the points for it up front, because in many caimpaings you are gonna get it anyways.