Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Only comment is, the Damage Reduction only costs END to activate, not to maintain.

 

Heh, I wonder what'd happen if you sicced WotD Seeker against Krait solo. . .

[vitruvian23]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I see no problem with rescaling DEX so that it compares more rationally to that of normal humans, so long as you don't end up contracting the scale. A possible (rough) scale.

 

DX Examples

5 Man-Thing, Glob

8 Blob, Juggernaut, Joe Schmoe

10 Slightly faster Joe Schmoe, average thugs

11 Colossus, Kyle Rayner

14 Hulk, Firestorm

18 Thing, Hal Jordan, Alan Scott, Nick Fury

20 Nighthawk (not Nightwing), 1938 Superman, Moon Knight, Wolverine,

Question, Oliver Queen, Dr. Mid-nite II

23 Black Canary, Wildcat, Connor Hawke, Mr. Terrific II

26 Batman, Daredevil, Superman, Wonder Woman

30 Spider-Man, Flash

 

This would give you base CVs ranging from 2 for the really slow lumbering brutes, to 3-5 for many bricks, 6-8 for most martial artists, and reserve 9-10 for the really incredibly agile or fast characters. A spread of 8 levels of base CV rather than 6 isn't that bad. As you can see, I wouldn't insist on a NCM 20 cap for all martial artists, just those who are presented as a fairly bland 'intensive training' type as opposed to those that are supposed to be truly exceptional.

 

As for SPD, I can see an argument for having the range be something like 2 (for really slow, lumbering monster types) to 3 (for most bricks) to 4 and 5 (for faster types) and restricting SPD 6 to the Spider-Mans and Flashes of the world. On the other hand, being able to do something each and every second (SPD 12) doesn't seem like an unreachable goal even for a trained normal human, so I might allow SPD inflation without limit, except for its unbalancing effects in play.

 

Of course, I'm actually going to be running GURPS next, for which DX inflation is not really an issue, given the rather high cost and the lack of a need to go beyond the 'normal human' peak of 20 for all but a few character concepts.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

DX Examples

5 Man-Thing, Glob

8 Blob, Juggernaut, Joe Schmoe

10 Slightly faster Joe Schmoe, average thugs

11 Colossus, Kyle Rayner

14 Hulk, Firestorm

18 Thing, Hal Jordan, Alan Scott, Nick Fury

20 Nighthawk (not Nightwing), 1938 Superman, Moon Knight, Wolverine,

Question, Oliver Queen, Dr. Mid-nite II

23 Black Canary, Wildcat, Connor Hawke, Mr. Terrific II

26 Batman, Daredevil, Superman, Wonder Woman

30 Spider-Man, Flash

What you've done here is just recreated the 4E Dark Champions scale. If you like that style of play then it's fine. I don't, for the reasons I mentioned above.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I see no problem with rescaling DEX so that it compares more rationally to that of normal humans, so long as you don't end up contracting the scale. A possible (rough) scale.

 

DX Examples

5 Man-Thing, Glob

8 Blob, Juggernaut, Joe Schmoe

10 Slightly faster Joe Schmoe, average thugs

11 Colossus, Kyle Rayner

14 Hulk, Firestorm

18 Thing, Hal Jordan, Alan Scott, Nick Fury

20 Nighthawk (not Nightwing), 1938 Superman, Moon Knight, Wolverine,

Question, Oliver Queen, Dr. Mid-nite II

23 Black Canary, Wildcat, Connor Hawke, Mr. Terrific II

26 Batman, Daredevil, Superman, Wonder Woman

30 Spider-Man, Flash

 

This would give you base CVs ranging from 2 for the really slow lumbering brutes, to 3-5 for many bricks, 6-8 for most martial artists, and reserve 9-10 for the really incredibly agile or fast characters. A spread of 8 levels of base CV rather than 6 isn't that bad. As you can see, I wouldn't insist on a NCM 20 cap for all martial artists, just those who are presented as a fairly bland 'intensive training' type as opposed to those that are supposed to be truly exceptional.

 

As for SPD, I can see an argument for having the range be something like 2 (for really slow, lumbering monster types) to 3 (for most bricks) to 4 and 5 (for faster types) and restricting SPD 6 to the Spider-Mans and Flashes of the world. On the other hand, being able to do something each and every second (SPD 12) doesn't seem like an unreachable goal even for a trained normal human, so I might allow SPD inflation without limit, except for its unbalancing effects in play.

 

Of course, I'm actually going to be running GURPS next, for which DX inflation is not really an issue, given the rather high cost and the lack of a need to go beyond the 'normal human' peak of 20 for all but a few character concepts.

I like a bigger spread than that. I think that narrow a range will lead to unsatisfying compromises when translating characters over from the comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Krait should have plenty of time to take RECs if you do. Remember' date=' if he goes on 2 before anyone else, he can turn any 6 SPD hero into a 5 SPD hero. That hero no longer goes on 2. Now he goes on 8. That's right. He loses his phase 2 action, and the DEX/SPD crossover rules come into effect. Yes, I know these rules are broken beyond a reasonable doubt, but still, that's what happens. [/quote']

 

This is a rules problem, not a Krait problem. It is easily fixed by using tyhe far more reasonable rule that a character whose Speed changes gets his next move on the later of the next phase his old SPD would act on and the next phase his new SPD would act on, rather than the next phase they would have in common.

 

The "phase in common" rule makes a SPD aid a dangerous offensive power

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

A question for Balabanto:

 

Could you provide more details on your party of PCs in question?? Schticks, specific powers, that kind of thing.

[assault]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I will also repeat my prior question: why' date=' if you have a party of 600 pointers, does your team not seem to have any mental defense??[/quote']

 

That's not inconceivable. If mental defence isn't within a character's conception, they won't have it, no matter how many points they are built on. This could well be true of an entire group.

 

Of course, that's not going to be true of every group, which suggests that Krait may be a lot more dangerous to some groups than others.

 

It's quite possible that some groups may all have at least some basic training in resisting mental attacks as well. And these groups may be built on a whole lot less than 600 points.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

That's not inconceivable. If mental defence isn't within a character's conception, they won't have it, no matter how many points they are built on. This could well be true of an entire group.

 

Of course, that's not going to be true of every group, which suggests that Krait may be a lot more dangerous to some groups than others.

 

It's quite possible that some groups may all have at least some basic training in resisting mental attacks as well. And these groups may be built on a whole lot less than 600 points.

 

I figure any character can justify it; it's more like a figured characteristic than a power in a lot of ways.

[nexus]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I'd say it depends on how you define "Mental Defense" in your world. If its a "Power" almost no one might have it unless its justified by their concept. If its can be considered a Talent or Skill, more would have access to it. If it can be technologically produced is a factor too.

[nexus]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I figure any character can justify it; it's more like a figured characteristic than a power in a lot of ways.

 

I've played in a few games where it was a Figured Characteristic, like PD and ED. It didn't seem to throw things off too much.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

That's not inconceivable. If mental defence isn't within a character's conception, they won't have it, no matter how many points they are built on. This could well be true of an entire group.

 

Of course, that's not going to be true of every group, which suggests that Krait may be a lot more dangerous to some groups than others.

 

It's quite possible that some groups may all have at least some basic training in resisting mental attacks as well. And these groups may be built on a whole lot less than 600 points.

Even without Mental Defense, almost any superhero can justify a high EGO (Heroes always have lots of willpower and determination!), and that can be a pretty good defense against mental attacks in and of itself (Both because of required numbers for effect and because a high EGO provides a high ECV.). That can be bad news for mentalists, who often count on virtually automatic hits and one-shot stops against low mental defense characters.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I figure any character can justify it; it's more like a figured characteristic than a power in a lot of ways.

"Indomitable Will" seems to be pretty common among heroic types.

 

IOW, Agreed.

[humantorch101]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Just looking at how other games handle DEX levels I quickly thumbed through the Algernon Files for M&M and many of the characters have DEXS in the normal human range from 10-14 for many brick or mage types. This rises seemingly from 16-20 for characters skilled in hth or ranged combat.

 

Then you get into the super dexs of speedsters and some martial artists.

 

I know the scale is very different but my point being that a normal will have a DEX of 10 in that system and many "supers" are not far away from that average unlike Champions characters.

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Just looking at how other games handle DEX levels I quickly thumbed through the Algernon Files for M&M and many of the characters have DEXS in the normal human range from 10-14 for many brick or mage types. This rises seemingly from 16-20 for characters skilled in hth or ranged combat.

 

Then you get into the super dexs of speedsters and some martial artists.

 

I know the scale is very different but my point being that a normal will have a DEX of 10 in that system and many "supers" are not far away from that average unlike Champions characters.

 

rgds

Torch

I suggest you look at M&M 2.0. The entire scale has been changed to give ranges from 1-50. There is no longer any 20 cap. Green Ronin saw how limiting the scale was and adapted a Champions-like scale. Also keep in mind that attack is not linked to dex in M&M 2.0 as it is in Champions. There's a different importance to the characteristic in Champions.

[humantorch101]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I suggest you look at M&M 2.0. The entire scale has been changed to give ranges from 1-50. There is no longer any 20 cap. Green Ronin saw how limiting the scale was and adapted a Champions-like scale. Also keep in mind that attack is not linked to dex in M&M 2.0 as it is in Champions. There's a different importance to the characteristic in Champions.

 

So are you saying few if any characters will have an almost average human like agility in MM2?

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

So are you saying few if any characters will have an almost average human like agility in MM2?

 

rgds

Torch

No, but I'm saying they use a different mechanic to determine hitting and missing and that the scale between 10 and 20 in M&M is not the same as 10 and 30 in Hero. The attack rules are different. For example, in M&M 1.0 strength gives you bonuses to hit in melee combat. A 20 dex martial artist gets to defend at 15 [meaning you need to roll 15 or higher on a d20 to hit him] but a 20 str brick gets +5 to hit [meaning he adds 5 to whatever he rolls on a d20]. So basically a strong guy can easily hit a fast guy in 1.0 M&M [and so can have an 10 dex rather then needing it to be higher].

 

I started a conversion system which you can find online here. I never finished it because right after I started it I learned from an M&M playtester in our game that the system was being changed, but you can do a search and find it if you like.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Even without Mental Defense' date=' almost any superhero can justify a high EGO (Heroes always have lots of willpower and determination!), and that can be a pretty good defense against mental attacks in and of itself (Both because of required numbers for effect and because a high EGO provides a high ECV.). That can be bad news for mentalists, who often count on virtually automatic hits and one-shot stops against low mental defense characters.[/quote']

 

Doesn't work quite so well against Krait, though, as none of his offensive powers are actually effected by Ego ( he's got a BOECV Drain, a BOECV Flash, and an Ego Blast ).

[Zed-F]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Does make it much harder for him to hit with his own whopping 5 ECV though.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I like a bigger spread than that. I think that narrow a range will lead to unsatisfying compromises when translating characters over from the comics.

 

What's your spread actually look like? DEX 5 to 30 gives you a spread of 25. Most of the Champions sourcebook characters I've seen go from 18 to somewhere in the high 30s, which is more like a spread of 20. It's also a CV spread of 8 (2 to 10) as opposed to 7 (6 to 13).

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

What's your spread actually look like? DEX 5 to 30 gives you a spread of 25. Most of the Champions sourcebook characters I've seen go from 18 to somewhere in the high 30s' date=' which is more like a spread of 20. It's also a CV spread of 8 (2 to 10) as opposed to 7 (6 to 13).[/quote'] I don't have a fixed notion of an upper limit. Let me put it this way, I would give Captain America a dexterity of 30 and Spider-Man a dexterity of 39. Oh yeah, I'd give Aunt May a dexterity of 5.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Doesn't work quite so well against Krait' date=' though, as none of his offensive powers are actually effected by Ego ( he's got a BOECV Drain, a BOECV Flash, and an Ego Blast ).[/quote']He would still have to hit a target's ECV to effect them, so a high EGO could still prove useful to his intended victim. I've seen plenty of Champions characters with EGO of 10 or 11. Generally only mentalists or characters who are using BOECV attacks buy EGO above 14.

 

I don't recall Krait's EGO; what book is he found in?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Sharper Than A Serpents Tooth.

 

IIRC, he's only Ego 15 himself, but he's also got a bunch of levels with the multipower.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Sharper Than A Serpents Tooth.

 

IIRC, he's only Ego 15 himself, but he's also got a bunch of levels with the multipower.

Just 2 levels.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Just 2 levels.

15 EGO plus 2 Levels means he'd have (just as an example) an equal ECV to my MA with her 14 EGO and 2 Overall Levels placed in ECV. He'd better hope he rolls good on his attack or he's going to have a very rough day.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

This is a rules problem, not a Krait problem. It is easily fixed by using tyhe far more reasonable rule that a character whose Speed changes gets his next move on the later of the next phase his old SPD would act on and the next phase his new SPD would act on, rather than the next phase they would have in common.

 

The "phase in common" rule makes a SPD aid a dangerous offensive power

 

":rolleyes:" indeed!

 

When I read Balabanto's "That hero no longer goes on 2. Now he goes on 8."

I couldn't believe it. That is however what FRED appears to say. 4th ed said that the character cannot act until he has had a Phase for both SPDs, which is how it should work. (also happens to match what you said, although your description is clearer than 4th ed)

 

Once you read the Example: that follows the Optional Speed Change rule, you find that it says "He can now only act when he has had a Phase for both of his SPDs.", which is the old rule.

 

Therefore, when you drop a SPD 6 character to SPD 5 before his Phase in segment 2, he gets a Phase in segment 3 at SPD 5. (2 was a Phase at SPD 6 that he didn't get to use, and 3 is a Phase for SPD 5--this, he gets to use)

 

Otherwise, you get the situation that dropping a SPD 7 character's SPD to 5 in segment 1 denies him a phase until 12. That borders the far side of FUBAR. Note that aiding a SPD 5 character up to 7 does the same thing. 5+2=1, now that is FUBAR.

 

Even worse yet, if you are really strict about misreading this rule, you can drop someone down from any SPD other than 7, 9, 11 or 12 down to 1 and they don't get another phase (ever) until their SPD changes again, and possibly not even then. This cannot be right, but if you look on the chart for a segment 7 on any SPD other than 1, 7, 9, 11 or 12, ...

 

Balabanto is wrong, although this is not entirely his fault--this is one rule that was murky enough in 4th ed, but has turned completely opaque in FRED. Did ReFRED put it right? Or at least put it back to where it was in 4th ed?