Feints

[L. Marcus]

. . . How do you do them? Sleight Of Hand? Images? Something completely different?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Feints

 

For many things in the system, I use two versions. A normal skill-based version and a enhanced powers-based version. Feints are one of those things.

 

As for Skill-based feints, I use Sleight of hand vs Perception in a skill vs skill contest. If the person performing the feint wins, they gain +1 OCV for every 2pts they beat the defender's PER roll by, up to a maximum of +3 OCV. If the attacker loses, they gain -1 OCV per 2pts the defenders PER beat their Sleight of hand roll, up to a maximum of -3 OCV. I consider Feint to be a 1/2 phase maneuver, but it is not considered an attack action.

 

Super-powered feints can be done in several ways.

 

The first (and my favorite) is with Hand Attack or HKA with the Indirect advantage. This creates an attack that cannot be Blocked. If the Indirect advantage is high enough (+3/4 level) it can create an attack that gets the bonus for attacking by surprise or from behind, even while standing right in front of the enemy! (the SFX is the feint is so "perfect" it takes them by surprise and slides past any defense they might attempt except a dodge or DFC)

 

The next is using Images. If the defender fails their PER roll, they believe the Image Feint is real and will react accordingly. This can make them waste a block or other maneuver on a phantom attack, and allow the attacker a Surprise maneuver bonus. A cool use of this power is to add Autofire to the Images power (totally legal according to FRED) and make it appear as if the opponent is being attacked 5 or more times. Which attack is the real one? The opponent has to think fast and figure it out. A failed PER roll means he blocks the wrong attack (an Image) and the real attack slides past his defense...(smart opponents will learn to Dodge this particular attack technique)

 

Skill levels can also be used to simulate an enhanced Feint maneuver. 5pt CSL's to OCV with the limitation Requires Skill Roll. The skill in question is the Sleight of Hand skill of course. This is superior to simply using the skill vs skill method, because the attacker merely need to make their skill roll successfully, and they gain the OCV bonus, which can be much greater than a mere +3. (whatever they can afford and the GM will allow of course) There is no penalty to failing the skill roll (GM's perogative to give a penalty on a critical failure though. I do of course)

 

Thats my take on Feints in Hero.

[MitchellS]

Re: Feints

 

To me it's just the special effects of how you allocate your combat levels. If you put 2 levels into OCV the image would be that the attacker feints to throw the defender off balance.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Feints

 

Arguably the block manoeuvre could be seen as a feint. Depends how you look at it.

 

Otherwise (for a skill based approach) I'd go with NuSoardGraphite's take, althoug I'd probably allow any type of skill that is relevant to be used, so you could get away with conversation, acting...so long as you can justify i in context.

 

Each subsequent attampt in the same combat would take a -2 (or more) unless you used a different skill.

 

The other way you could do it is with a PRE attack: you can buy PRE 'only to feint' for somewhere between -1 and -2. This works quite well as you get something other than n OCV bonus - the opponent is caused to hesitate.

 

Of course there is no reason you can not use both

 

If you use 'UMA' you can have a feint as a powerful attack that must follow a dodge/block. EG...

 

Feint 4 points: +2 OCV +0 DCV +3d6 damage MUST FOLLOW BLOCK

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Feints

 

Of course Sean, you can use other skills to perform all sorts of different types of "feints" and other maneuvers. You can use Simulate Death to play "possum" after recieving a relatively minor wound. You can use Acting to feign fear or incompetence to goad your opponent into overconfidence. You can use a PRE attack to cause your opponent to hesitate, Analyze Style to determine the weakness in your opponents fighting style, Tactics to figure out the best use of terrain for the advantage (or to disadvantage your opponent) Persuasion (or PRE attack) to piss your opponent off in hopes of getting them to drop their defenses to attack mindlessly, Acrobatics to attack unpredictably or to make yourself harder to hit or Seduction to...um..."distract" your opponent with your charms. (skill vs skill, Seduction vs Ego roll!)

 

Another reason I love Hero. Its internal consistancy allows for such variation within the system that any sort of arbitration of this nature is possible without having to pull a rabbit outta your ***....

[L. Marcus]

Re: Feints

 

Another reason I love Hero. Its internal consistancy allows for such variation within the system that any sort of arbitration of this nature is possible without having to pull a rabbit outta your ***....

. . . Hat?

 

Anyhoo, I don't really like Slight Of Hand to represent a feint . . . I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather create a Feint Skill (an Agility Skill, o'course) and use it as NuSoard's first example - with SoH as a complimentary skill in the right circumstance . . .

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Feints

 

Ooh. I forgot about that filter. It used to let the alternative to anus though. I wonder why it doesn't now? Heck, I figure if you can say it on Tv and the radio, it should be okay for use on a message board....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Feints

 

. . . Hat?

 

Ummm...yeaaah. Thats what I meant.

 

Anyhoo, I don't really like Slight Of Hand to represent a feint . . . I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather create a Feint Skill (an Agility Skill, o'course) and use it as NuSoard's first example - with SoH as a complimentary skill in the right circumstance . . .

 

Oh, absolutely. A Feint Skill would be a fine addition to the list. Or maybe make it a Talent. In anycase, I think a Feint Maneuver should be added to the list of Optional Combat Maneuvers (takes a 1/2 Phase). Maybe its in the Combat Handbook? Anybody got a copy of that yet??? I'm still looking around for one.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Feints

 

Ummm...yeaaah. Thats what I meant.

If you say so . . .

Oh' date=' absolutely. A Feint Skill would be a fine addition to the list. Or maybe make it a Talent. In anycase, I think a Feint Maneuver should be added to the list of Optional Combat Maneuvers (takes a 1/2 Phase). Maybe its in the Combat Handbook? Anybody got a copy of that yet??? I'm still looking around for one. [/quote']

. . . Feint as a Maneuver? I like it. Maybe it should require a DEX roll . . ?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Feints

 

If someone wants to perform some kind of feight in my games, I just listen to how they plan to pull it off. It it's quick and relatively uncomplated (like all feints should be), I'll either call for a PER Roll on the defender to spot the feint, call for a Skill vs Skill between the attacker and defender (using whatever I feel is the appropriate skills depending on the situation) or just grant the attacker a surprise bonus to his attack. In all of the above cases, the feint is just part of the attack/a 0 phase action. My default bonus is +2 OCV.

 

In addition, the feint is at a -2 OCV should the defender spot it.

 

More complicated feints may take a 1/2 phase (non attack) action or a full phase action to set up. If so, the bonus is usually larger (+3 to +5), but so is the penalty.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Feints

 

If you were basing a campaign around things like sword fights, or boxing even, or had a character built specifically towards this kind of action I could see a Feint Skill (DEX Based) being created. Wouldn't be the first time someone created a more specific skill. Heck, keep it mind for when Steve solicits ideas for The Ultimate Skill.

 

In many games Feints and such could be considered part of the Combat Package (OCV, CSLs, etc...) and built into the system.

 

It could go both ways.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Feints

 

Hmmmm..

 

would Feint be a skill,

 

or would it be a specific Martial Maneuver; one which puts the opponent at a specific DCV disadvantage for the remainder of the phase? Or perhaps for his next phase? Or perhaps for the 'feinter' to gain an OCV advantage on a counter-strike?

 

That is, if you feel the need to include 'feint' in your campaign. Like someone else above (Mitchell?), I've always considered such as feinting to be part of the 'sfx' of melee-- a nearly missed blow, a nearly made dodge, etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Feints

 

Ooh. I forgot about that filter. It used to let the alternative to anus though. I wonder why it doesn't now? Heck' date=' I figure if you can say it on Tv and the radio, it should be okay for use on a message board....[/quote']

 

It'll probably let the British spelling through though. Over here, an *** is a donkey.

 

HEY! What's that over there?

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Feints

 

**** Ha - doesn't work - they go that one sewn up....ouch....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Feints

 

****

 

****.

 

Sorry, Sean---

 

it was too tempting!

 

I'll clean it up if it posts, though.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Feints

 

well,

 

guess it catches the Brits, too!

 

I am so tempted to lay out some of my more exotic ravings, but

 

well, for one, it's just not the place. And secondly, over-use weakens effectiveness.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Feints

 

Hmmmm..

 

would Feint be a skill,

 

or would it be a specific Martial Maneuver; one which puts the opponent at a specific DCV disadvantage for the remainder of the phase? Or perhaps for his next phase? Or perhaps for the 'feinter' to gain an OCV advantage on a counter-strike?

 

That is, if you feel the need to include 'feint' in your campaign. Like someone else above (Mitchell?), I've always considered such as feinting to be part of the 'sfx' of melee-- a nearly missed blow, a nearly made dodge, etc.

Feint as a Martial Maneuver, or even Talent, is good enough for most campaigns that wanted to include it at all. I do have to agree that the average game takes this into effect as "Part of Combat."

 

But, if you're playing 3 Musketeers Hero and want some nicely complex dueling rules, determining if the Feint worked, how well, countering a Feint, etc... a Feint Skill would allow for Skill vs Skill contests, degrees of Feint (might have an off day), and other such things.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Feints

 

Oh, most certainly. As with anything else-- hit location chart, house rules, whatever else, if it will enhance the feel of your campaign or the enjoyment of your players, then by all means allow it.

 

I certainly didn't want to give the impression that I was dimissing the idea. Quite the contrary; I rather liked it. It's just not something that I think needs improvement in my own games, that's all.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Feints

 

For the most part I just consider feints to be a part of your OCV, whether gained through Base OCV, maneuvers, or CSLs. Being a fencer and a martial artist, I can tell you that you wouldn't be very effective at all (against even moderately skilled opponents) if you did not make feints.

 

With that in mind, I am still open to giving an OCV bonus to creative or descriptive action on a player's part, usually but not always combined with a Skill such as Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, or Acting for resolution of how effectively the PC carried off the described action. It inspires creativity and development of character concept.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Feints

 

I agree. The skill roll would simply be an indication of how well they pulled it off. I would still require a description of the maneuver from the player in question.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Feints

 

I agree that, in general, feints are part of the OCV/CSL package. But I also like to reward players who think of ways to use non-combat skills (sleight of hand, acting, or just PRE) to augment their combat skills. Plus, it's another way to prompt players to embellish their attacks, rather than just "I hit him" over and over.

 

Personally, I'd prefer to see feint as a maneuver, rather than a skill or talent. I've normally run it much as others have described: come up with a clever idea, roll some appropriate skill, quick PER roll for attacker, bonuses or penalties handed out based on who rolled what.

 

Actually, now that I'm writing it down, didn't there used to be a feint maneuver in the original Fantasy Hero? Have to check my book when I get home. (Unless someone beats me to it, of course...)

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Holy mother of God and all her wacky Nephews!"

[captainNeda]

Re: Feints

 

If you were basing a campaign around things like sword fights, or boxing even, or had a character built specifically towards this kind of action I could see a Feint Skill (DEX Based) being created. Wouldn't be the first time someone created a more specific skill. Heck, keep it mind for when Steve solicits ideas for The Ultimate Skill.

 

In many games Feints and such could be considered part of the Combat Package (OCV, CSLs, etc...) and built into the system.

 

It could go both ways.

 

 

I agree that, in general, feints are part of the OCV/CSL package. But I also like to reward players who think of ways to use non-combat skills (sleight of hand, acting, or just PRE) to augment their combat skills. Plus, it's another way to prompt players to embellish their attacks, rather than just "I hit him" over and over.

 

Personally, I'd prefer to see feint as a maneuver, rather than a skill or talent. I've normally run it much as others have described: come up with a clever idea, roll some appropriate skill, quick PER roll for attacker, bonuses or penalties handed out based on who rolled what.

 

Actually, now that I'm writing it down, didn't there used to be a feint maneuver in the original Fantasy Hero? Have to check my book when I get home. (Unless someone beats me to it, of course...)

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Holy mother of God and all her wacky Nephews!"

 

 

I agree. One thing I see on this board is that to many people over complicate things. A fient as most often described is aking to leading left and striking right. With that definition most fights include subtle small fients through out the engagement. The better someone is at it, the more likely they are to succeed, hense I simply use combat levels.

 

Also, think about this, the defender may not even see or recognize the fient, hence would it work? For example if I lead with a fiented shin kick and strike with a quick jab what if the defender wasn't looking down? Are we going to write rules really complex rules for all the variations of they didn't see the fient, they saw the fient but didn't recogize it and they saw the fient and recognized it as such? Do you see where that gets to be rules nazi'ing?

 

Because of that I just treat fients generically as OCV and the ability to percieve and recognize them as DCV. Why would you waste your time working out anything else?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Feints

 

I agree that overcomplicating it makes it less fun. I suggest two forms:

 

1. CSLs, Subject to Skill vs. Skill (OCV vs. OCV) -1/2, Side Effects -1 per 2 CSLs used -1/2. That basically means CSLs at half cost that you get if you succeed on an OCV vs. OCV test.

 

2. PRE Attack. By the rules, you get initiative if you succeed, reduce your opponent to 1/2 phase action for +10 PRE, no action & 1/2 DCV for +20, and completely awed & 0 DCV for +30. An appropriate skill vs. skill roll would get +1d6, skill by half is +2d6, as well as reputation as a factor, if the target was wounded by the feinter in this fight (or bested as in disarmed or such) for +1d6 or more. The advantage here is that it takes no time.

 

3. Surprise Move. This grants a +1 to +3 bonus based on description and opportunity. This is perfect for using Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, or even a flourish (OCV vs. OCV). If you are looking for hard mechanics, I'd say it's skill vs. target's PER (or skill used if possessed) with success granting +1 and every 2 points of success resulting in an additional +1 to a max of +3. Alternatively, you could treat this as a DCV penalty with a max reduction of DCV/2.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Feints

 

Classic example of a real-world feint: two of my friends are sparring in the dojo. We'll call them Sensei and Student. Student is clearly outclassed and getting his butt kicked, when he looks past Senei's shoulder towards the door and says "Hi Trish Ann!" (Sensei's wife.) Sensei turns to look in spite of himself... Pop!

 

...and combat skill had nothing to do with it.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Rasputin, bring in the bucket of soapy frogs and remove his trousers."

[prestidigitator]

Re: Feints

 

Classic example of a real-world feint: two of my friends are sparring in the dojo. We'll call them Sensei and Student. Student is clearly outclassed and getting his butt kicked, when he looks past Senei's shoulder towards the door and says "Hi Trish Ann!" (Sensei's wife.) Sensei turns to look in spite of himself... Pop!

 

...and combat skill had nothing to do with it.

Yep. There's Persuasion for the deception right there. Maybe Acting if he had looked toward the door in an amazed and very admiring fashion, as if an unbelievably attractive woman had just walked in. Of course, if he fails and is ignored, he may just be leaving himself open to attack....