Why not OCV levels?

[Tech]

A question was posted by Lord Liaden to the Hero System Rules:

Hail, Sagacious Steven S.,

 

I noticed that a couple of SAS characters in Reality Storm were written up in HERO System with 5-point Combat Skill Levels for "OCV Only." These were used to translate the Tri-Stat Attribute "Attack Combat Mastery," and appear to be the opposite of CSL for DCV Only.

 

Can we consider this an "officially sanctioned" use for a 5-point Level generally in HERO, or is it a special exception for the SAS/HERO translation matrix?

 

As always, thanks for your time.

 

To which our own Steve Long replies:

A special exception.

 

I've been puzzled about the reasoning on this for years. This isn't the first time that the subject of 'levels for OCV only' have come up. I quite familiar with the Tri-Stat system and totally agree with this creative way to handle the Tri-Stat Attribute "Attack Combat Mastery". However, I question it's use as to it being a special exception in the Hero System. Why not allow levels to be bought for OCV only? Examing the Combat Skill Level (CSL) from our 5th ed rulebook seems to confirm, at least, my questioning of it's special exception use. I will point out I do not have the Revised 5th ed book (finances being what they are) and do not have reference to anything that may be stated in it regarding CSL.

 

The smallest CSL bought is 2 pts for OCV purposes only. Obviously, a 2 pt CSL not being allowed for DCV is well put. All other CSL allow the use of a CSL for either OCV or DCV, including the Overall level from the Skill Levels table.

 

A 2 pt CSL simply means the person buying it has refined the accuracy of their attack to hit more often, whether due to skill, luck or other reasons. The buyer is simply interested in hitting their target more often and has not practiced avoiding incoming attacks against their personage.

 

The 3, 5, 8 and 10 pt (including Overall levels) bought mean that the buyer is not only much better at hitting their target but is also is able to dodge incoming attacks, if they choose. Again, it could be due to intense training, hyper reflexes, snakelike body or other reasons. In all cases, they allow for use in either OCV or DCV. A special CSL may be bought which is specifically designated for use for DCV only, with optional rules to jazz up this level as the GM sees fit. This kind of a DCV level can be seen in almost any movie, tv series or cartoon, where someone just keeps managing to dodge the attacks on them, even if they have no combat experience. Also useful to frustrate GM's..

 

Obviously, the levels are flexible for OCV and DCV, except for the smallest pt CSL which is for OCV use only. Means are made to even allow DCV levels to be bought. OCV levels on foci are allowed with a certain minimum point cost. Negative CSL are suggested to lower opponents OCV or DCV for certain powers.

 

In all these cases, the flexibility to increase your OCV/DCV is the key to making CSLs work. By inference, an OCV level should be allowed to be bought. There are many many ways to buy things in the Hero System and that is why the Hero System has survived so long, been enjoyed so long and come back to life - it's flexibility. Since CSLs can be bought for OCV with 1 attack for a small price, can be bought for use with either OCV or DCV in ever increasing use and cost, can be bought as OCV levels for foci and finally you can even buy a categorical DCV level against any attack, why is buying only OCV levels for characters who can much easier hit their opponents with any attack not allowed? It simply does not make sense. An 'OCV level only' is merely the opposite of the DCV level only CSL - the proverbial other side of the same coin.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Weird. You think you know a game...

 

I rarely buy them but I have always assumed there was no problem with buying +1 OCV with all attacks for 5 points.

 

I mean you can but +1 with all combat for 8 points and if you apply a -1/2 limitation (only to improve OCV) it works out at...well 5 points (although 2 levels would be 11, +3 is 16 and so on....). No problem with limiting an 8 point level.

 

I suppose the reason this is an 'exception' is because +1 OCV with all ranged combat is 5 points, and noone would bother buying that if you could get +1 with all combat for the same price.

[Zed-F]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

+1 with ranged combat is 5 points. Those levels can be used for OCV or DCV. I don't really see a problem with +1 OCV levels being worth 5 points if you can get +1 DCV levels worth 5 points.

 

However, since I pretty much only use those kinds of levels to build weapons with innate targetting or accuracy bonuses, it doesn't really matter whether I start with OCV levels and limit from there, or ranged combat levels and limit from there. I have to start from a 5-point level anyway so it doesn't really matter what I call it that much.

[Black Rose]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I came to the conclusion that, much like +1 DCV for 5 pts, +1 OCV for 5 pts makes sense. It might have trickled into my brain from my copy of Reality Storm, but I don't consciously remember it.

 

And I wouldn't bother keeping track of the fraction, Sean. Just take it as a construct for your games. One of these days I'm going to get my Supers game all crunched out, and one of the tasks I've set myself is creating a USPD-like collection of "standard" powers for each power origin. I'm leaning toward building them and then showing their price per DC. Make it a little more modular, and if people come up with funky powers of their own - and they will - crunch them down to 1 DC and add it to the list.

[Tiree]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

You can buy +1 OCV CSL on a focus for 5 pts. So you can buy that Magical Sword +2 OCV (Finely crafted Dwarven Steel - them elves only produce +1) for 10pts with the disad of being a focus.

 

But that is a sanctioned rule...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I'm not sure ranged levels do add to DCV you know.

[Zed-F]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

It's rather silly if +1 with my Gun-fu MP or my ranged martial maneuvers (for 3 points) can be used for OCV or DCV, but my +1 for ranged attacks (for 5 points) cannot. I would say that +1 with ranged combat can apply to DCV versus ranged attacks. You know how to move evasively, use cover to advantage, etc.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I've been usuing 5 pt combat levels this way since the late 80's. Never had any problems.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I'm not sure ranged levels do add to DCV you know.

You're right - they don't. Not without special GM permission at leat.

 

I always assumed one would buy an 8pt CSL and apply a -1/2 OCV Only Limitation to it, making it 5 points, though fraction creep brings it up to 11pts for 2 CSLs and 16points for 3 CSLs bought this way. Still - seems a fair way to do this.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

You're right - they don't. Not without special GM permission at leat.

 

I always assumed one would buy an 8pt CSL and apply a -1/2 OCV Only Limitation to it, making it 5 points, though fraction creep brings it up to 11pts for 2 CSLs and 16points for 3 CSLs bought this way. Still - seems a fair way to do this.

 

Ranged Skill Levels don't add to DCV... but Combat Skill Levels w/Ranged Attacks do. Two different things.

 

(At least that is how I've always interpreted it.)

 

5 pts for +1 HtH... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 Ranged... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 DCV... always done this.

 

5 pts for +1 OCV... I dont' think this has ever come up, but sure, I'd allow it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Ranged Skill Levels don't add to DCV... but Combat Skill Levels w/Ranged Attacks do. Two different things.

 

(At least that is how I've always interpreted it.)

 

5 pts for +1 HtH... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 Ranged... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 DCV... always done this.

 

5 pts for +1 OCV... I dont' think this has ever come up, but sure, I'd allow it.

You're right, my bad. We always use the Optional Rule that a Ranged OCV CSL can't help you dodge ranged attack so can't apply to DCV. I keep forgetting it's Optional because it's our default state.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Ranged Skill Levels don't add to DCV... but Combat Skill Levels w/Ranged Attacks do. Two different things.

 

(At least that is how I've always interpreted it.)

 

5 pts for +1 HtH... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 Ranged... OCV or DCV

 

5 pts for +1 DCV... always done this.

 

5 pts for +1 OCV... I dont' think this has ever come up, but sure, I'd allow it.

 

You say that now (and to be fair I only have FRED with me not 5ER, but it is quite specific, and I'm not talking optional rules here): 5 point CSL is +1 OCV or DCV with all HtH attacks, +1 OCV with all ranged attacks or +1 OCV or DCV with a related group of HtH and ranged attacks.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I had a feeling a thread like this would be sparked...

 

I was thinking that disallowing 5-pt. CSLs "OCV Only" might be based on the metarule that Defenses should be cheaper than Attacks. As Sean Waters pointed out above, Limiting an 8-pt. Level to OCV Only does add up to be slightly more expensive than 5 pts. per Level; and the more Limitations you allow (like stacking Focus on top of OCV Only), the greater the disparity between 5-pt. and 8-pt. Levels becomes. Of course it's Steve's policy not to explain design rationales, so this will have to remain guesswork.

 

Actually, the question about 5-point CSLs with All Ranged Combat is related to this subject. I've been going over my FREd (no 5ER yet) and the FAQ and haven't found a specific declaration that 5 pointers can indeed be used for DCV vs. Ranged attacks. Certainly the rules say 3 pt. and 8 pt. Levels can add to DCV, and it's possible to buy "mixed" Levels that grant DCV against both. If you can't use Ranged Combat CSLs for DCV, that would support Sean's contention that OCV Only Levels would be a better deal.

 

The passage from "Types Of Combat Skill Levels" dealing with 5 pointers (FREd p. 36) says: "Characters can buy the 5-point CSL as +1 OCV or DCV with all HTH Combat, +1 OCV with all Ranged Combat, or +1 OCV or DCV with a related group of HTH and Ranged attacks (such as "U.S. Army Infantry Weapons" or "All Martial Arts Weapons"). [Emphasis mine]

 

Can someone with 5ER find a passage which clarifies this point definitively? Otherwise I guess I'll have to head back to the "Rules" forum.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Good points LL, I just have one quible since I am such a stubborn detractor.

 

Levels are not in an of themselves an attack. Thus the metarule does not apply in this case.

 

I would, despite the written words (should they be found) allow a 5 point All OCV combat skill level.

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

I think we all would, Hawksmoor, but if we were going to be that reasonable about it there's be nothing here but tumbleweed

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

:kick:

 

Move tumbleweed move!

 

:kick:

 

Stupid plant...

 

:Goes to play CoH:

 

Hawksmoor

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

You say that now (and to be fair I only have FRED with me not 5ER' date=' but it is quite specific, and I'm not talking optional rules here): 5 point CSL is +1 OCV or DCV with all HtH attacks, +1 OCV with all ranged attacks or +1 OCV or DCV with a related group of HtH and ranged attacks.[/quote']

 

This must be a 5th Ed ruling I've never noticed or adopted. I'm still working on my long held 4th and previous rulings... which work just fine so I never needed to look up new rules to see what might have changed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

CSLs with Ranged can be used for OCV, DCV vs. Ranged Attacks, and Damage, provided you are using an applicable attack during the Phase. CSLs that can apply to a Tight or Broad Group of attacks, or some HTH and some Ranged maneuvers, can be applied to DCV vs. HTH if you are making an applicable HTH attack during the Phase, or DCV vs. Ranged if you are making an applicable Ranged attack during the Phase. It's all in the FAQs.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

prestidigitator, I've found everything you mention in the FAQ, except the specific declaration that 5-point CSL with Ranged Combat can also be used for DCV vs. Ranged attacks. Could you possibly quote the ruling that you found?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

prestidigitator' date=' I've found everything you mention in the FAQ, except the specific declaration that 5-point CSL with Ranged Combat can also be used for DCV vs. Ranged attacks. Could you possibly quote the ruling that you found?[/quote']

Oh. That part is right in 5ER, I believe. Maybe also 5E. You might try looking at the old FAQ, too.

 

EDIT: I think there were several Rules Questions Board threads in which this stuff got addressed also.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Yep, 5ER (now I'm home and can look at it: I only have FRED at work ) definitely says 5 point level: +1 OCV/DCV or increased damage.

 

Consistency for the sake of it IMO: I am really not sure how being good at shooting is meant to allow me to be harder to hit with a gun. If I know anything about shooting (and I don't) the opposite is likely to be true.

 

Optional rule, I know, i can just turn on the options. Bah, i say.

 

And humbug.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Consistency for the sake of it IMO: I am really not sure how being good at shooting is meant to allow me to be harder to hit with a gun. If I know anything about shooting (and I don't) the opposite is likely to be true.

Eh. Perhaps it has to do with being more familiar with trajectories and weapon types. Perhaps it is a matter of being more aware of ranged attackers (since that is where you are focusing your attacks anyway, rather than, "right in front," of yourself). Perhaps a certain amount of training can be assumed to be in anticipating the moment of attack and finding appropriate cover. Whatever.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Yep, 5ER (now I'm home and can look at it: I only have FRED at work ) definitely says 5 point level: +1 OCV/DCV or increased damage.

 

Consistency for the sake of it IMO: I am really not sure how being good at shooting is meant to allow me to be harder to hit with a gun. If I know anything about shooting (and I don't) the opposite is likely to be true.

 

Optional rule, I know, i can just turn on the options. Bah, i say.

 

And humbug.

 

I've always "rationalized" this as skill with moving and shooting. Essentially, you are correct that being a good shot often entails limited movement, aiming, etc. In heroic fiction/genre, though, especially anything influenced by John Woo... you see the gun guys leaping and dodging and rolling and blasting away with stupid accuracy. I just assume that if you are putting you levels into OCV you are steadier, more accurate... but if you have them in DCV, you are firing a bit more wildly, but moving in such a way to avoid being hit.

 

YMMV

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Johnny

 

Johnny

 

Woo

 

Woo

 

WOO!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why not OCV levels?

 

Johnny

 

Johnny

 

Woo

 

Woo

 

WOO!

 

 

Put down the Guiness... repeat... put down the Guiness and back away from the bar...