Change Environment vs Images (light only)

[psm]

Hello everybody. Okay, I'll make this quick. Does anybody know why the rules state that providing light is handled only by images and not by change environment? I can see why this would pertain to some situations but not all. Also, it mentions that Change Environment can only have a negative effect (it's especially emphasized in Sidekick). Why?

 

I should also mention that I'm going against the rules on this one. In my campaign lightbulbs/lamps are change environments and obviously have a positive effect (just not in game terms). I just wanted to see what everyones elses opinions are. Possibly getting a better insight on the power itself. Just don't expect me to change my opinion.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Because light is something that is only percieved and makes things percievable. Change Environment effects environmental conditions. Images creates percievable, uh, images.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Well, when you look at all of the rules concerning environmental effects, just about all of them have some sort of negative effect. The rest have no effect. There is no enviornmental effect that has a positive effect, almost by definition of the game mechanic (well, actually by definition of the game mechanic).

 

The rules for light and visibility are covered in the rules section about perception and senses. There can be postitive and negative perception effects, something that Images can do.

 

Also, the key difference are the terms "enviornental" and "perception". Change Enviornment can produce enviornmental effects (of which light is not) and Images can produce perception effects (of which light most certainly is).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Hmmm. You can make flowers bloom with CE. I like flowers. That's a positive.

 

Personally I think if you can heat the environment up you should be able to lighten it up. Heat and light are just different bits of the spectrum, but noooooooo. Would it kill them, just once, to say 'you can do it with either power'?

 

Personally I think the system is robust enough to live with that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I think the reason the rules state to use Images is that can give a + to PER and thus can be seen to have a direct offset to the minuses to PER caused by darkness/nightfall. And the build in the book for a Flashlight is indeed a +4 to PER (which directly offsets the -4 to PER cuased by a 'dark night' the highest darkness modifier listed in the book).

 

Beyond that .. the only prevent CE from creating Light is the GM.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I would permit CE to be used for light. My reasoning would be that CE can not be used to create "positive" effects, but creating light to counter normal darkness (as opposed the the Power "Darkness") is not actually creating a positive - it is simply countering a negative. Just as CE could be used to create an ice sheet or fog to create a penalty to CV, it is only logical that it could also be used to counter those effects by heating things up or creating a wind to dispel the fog. The rules in fact state this is legal (5ER, page 137).

 

So long as the light created by CE is not providing any bonus to combat, it would be legal.

[Stray Cat]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Is it possible to build a flashlight with the optional Succor version of Aid?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Where does this 'CE can not create a positive' myth spring from? Huh?

 

Oh and the way images lets you create positive PER rolls is just a glitch fix. IMO.

[Stray Cat]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Where does this 'CE can not create a positive' myth spring from? Huh?

 

Oh and the way images lets you create positive PER rolls is just a glitch fix. IMO.

I'm not sure about the the original 5th edition. Page 137 of the revised rulebook says, "Change Environment cannot provide 'positive' effects or bonuses to any character (other than the beneficial result of hindering his enemies)."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

You are right.

 

Shame.

 

Time for a cost comparison.

 

CE: negate 4 levels of sight perception nerf due to environment (its dark) in an 8" radius 29 points

 

Images (same thing) 22 points with +3/4 adv: 38 points

 

Call me old fashioned but that seems ludicrously expensive. Actually it seems pretty expensive either way but there you go. Maybe a UOO nightvision....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I'm not sure about the the original 5th edition. Page 137 of the revised rulebook says' date=' "Change Environment cannot provide 'positive' effects or bonuses to any character (other than the beneficial result of hindering his enemies)."[/quote']It also says in the very next paragraph "Depending on special effect, the GM can allow one Change Environment power to cancel or negate a similar Change Environment power." In other words, it's not providing a bonus; it's countering a negative.

 

And Sean Waters is absolutely right: Paying 30+ points (even before Limitations) for a lantern or flashlight is taking absurdity to a whole new level. Why not simply accept that a flashlight is merely countering the penalties from an absence of light and move on instead of going through Twisterâ„¢-like contortions to build one that's strictly book legal? This ought to be an easy decision for any GM: common sense trumps the patently absurd. And we wonder why potential new players sometimes balk at Hero? "Don't worry! Your cat burglar character won't have to pay more than 10% of his total Character Points for a flashlight; maybe as little as 5%!"

 

For a flashlight!?

[Stray Cat]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Oh I'm not defending the Images flashlight by any stretch. He asked, and I looked up. It seems like to me that the illuminating power of a flashlight shrieks Enhanced Perception, but I've never really bothered with it. Very rarely is the group I play with in a situation where a no-points flashlight or some other means of illumination isn't readily available.

 

Cat

[Trebuchet]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Oh I'm not defending the Images flashlight by any stretch. He asked' date=' and I looked up. It seems like to me that the illuminating power of a flashlight shrieks Enhanced Perception, but I've never really bothered with it. Very rarely is the group I play with in a situation where a no-points flashlight or some other means of illumination isn't readily available.[/quote']I would argue that a flashlight is not Enhanced Perception because it's useless in broad daylight; it doesn't provise any bonus if something is well lit. A typical flashlight works solely to counter penalties for poor lighting (Although I own a small tactical flashlight which is bright enough to dazzle or temporarilly blind someone at night; I'd build that as a small Flash Attack.).

 

I agree as to "free" flashlights and the like being readily available. (In fact in our Champions campaign one of the characters glows brightly enough to read by.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I would argue that a flashlight is not Enhanced Perception because it's useless in broad daylight; it doesn't provise any bonus if something is well lit.

Then just build it with the pluses to sight perception being like Penalty Skill Levels -- at half cost because they can't be used to provide a positive bonus, just offset negatives.

 

Oh, wait...that's Nightvision.

 

Flashlight: Nightvision, OAF, Fuel Charge.

 

 

Of course, the metarule says that if two approaches are equally valid, use the most expensive one.

 

Feel free now to 'debate' which is the 'most valid': Images, CE, or Enhanced Senses.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

(In fact in our Champions campaign one of the characters glows brightly enough to read by.)

Distinctive Feature? Side Effect? Or did they pay for the privledge?

[Stray Cat]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I built some various interpretations from effect. Flashlight I is the Long brand. Flashlight II is the Cat brand. And Flashlight III is the old tried and true Big Blue brand. All of them use the same batteries.

 

Flashlight I: Sight Group Images 1" radius, +/-4 to PER Rolls, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0) (22 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2)

6 real points, 22 active

 

Flashlight II: +4 PER with Normal Sight, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only to Create Light (-1)

3 real points, 10 active

 

Flashlight III: Change Environment 1" radius, +4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Only to Negate PER Penalties Due to Lack of Light (+0), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0) (11 Active Points); OAF (-1)

5 real points, 11 active

 

Flashlight II has A LOT of problems. Someone with greater HERO experience than I have would be able to make it work. The Usable Simultaneously is necessary for the effect of allowing others to see. I think the Visible limitation could also be applied to this one.

 

Flashlight III is the most aesthetically pleasing to me. I was unsure what the Only to Negate... would be worth, but I assumed little to nothing. It's really only a definer instead of a modifier.

 

Cat

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Hello everybody. Okay, I'll make this quick. Does anybody know why the rules state that providing light is handled only by images and not by change environment? I can see why this would pertain to some situations but not all. Also, it mentions that Change Environment can only have a negative effect (it's especially emphasized in Sidekick). Why?

 

I should also mention that I'm going against the rules on this one. In my campaign lightbulbs/lamps are change environments and obviously have a positive effect (just not in game terms). I just wanted to see what everyones elses opinions are. Possibly getting a better insight on the power itself. Just don't expect me to change my opinion.

 

For playbalance. Negative effects can (usually) be easily countered by Life Support or Environmental Movement. Positive effects (especially combat ones) can't easily be countered.

 

Although both could be countered with the opposite Change Environment.

 

But yeah, Light is about as expensive as Darkness...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Distinctive Feature? Side Effect? Or did they pay for the privledge?

All and none of the above. It just is. Thunderbird is an avatar of the Apache weather diety, so subtlety is not part of his concept. Whether you want to consider it sfx for a glowing FF or aura or just a manifestation of his high PRE, Thunderbird shines. Since it's always as much hindrance as help, none of us (GM's or players) see any necessity to define it beyond that. It's just part of the character concept.

 

Too many people playing Hero seem to think it's necessary to stat out every last thing. Who cares what the proper build of a zipper or drinking glass are? We all know what they do. That's good enough to play with.

[psm]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Oh and the way images lets you create positive PER rolls is just a glitch fix. IMO.

 

I agree with you on this one. I think this is one of those rare instances when Hero gets caught up with the sfx and not the mechanics. It appears since images use light (which I consider a sfx) that they are trying to use it to handle other light issues.

 

By the way thanks to everyone giving me some insight on the situation. Now, I more confused than before

[Trebuchet]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Flashlight III: Change Environment 1" radius, +4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Only to Negate PER Penalties Due to Lack of Light (+0), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0) (11 Active Points); OAF (-1)

5 real points, 11 active

 

Flashlight III is the most aesthetically pleasing to me. I was unsure what the Only to Negate... would be worth, but I assumed little to nothing. It's really only a definer instead of a modifier.

I would prefer III myself. You could add Limited Arc 60° for an additional -1/2. I think there should also be some value to only countering the effects of poor lighting, perhaps another -1/2.

 

Of course, in my campaign it's just a flashlight. No need to stat it out. Drop it and it breaks. Oops!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

All and none of the above. It just is. Thunderbird is an avatar of the Apache weather diety, so subtlety is not part of his concept. Whether you want to consider it sfx for a glowing FF or aura or just a manifestation of his high PRE, Thunderbird shines. Since it's always as much hindrance as help, none of us (GM's or players) see any necessity to define it beyond that. It's just part of the character concept.

 

Too many people playing Hero seem to think it's necessary to stat out every last thing. Who cares what the proper build of a zipper or drinking glass are? We all know what they do. That's good enough to play with.

That was partly my point, even though I tend to be one of those types who over-stats (or stats out everything, pick your own descriptive ).

[Stray Cat]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Of course' date=' in my campaign it's just a flashlight. No need to stat it out. Drop it and it breaks. Oops![/quote']My playing group would view it the same way. I think we'd only use some sort of statted light source for something extraordinary. We are much more fast and loose with mundane equipment. Of course my group uses HERO exclusively for Champions, so that may be the reason for that. I haven't really thought about it.

 

And Doc Anomaly, I hadn't even thought about Nightvision. DOH! That would have cleaned up my Enhanced Perception flashlight some.

 

Cat

[Lucius]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

I would argue that a flashlight is not Enhanced Perception because it's useless in broad daylight; it doesn't provise any bonus if something is well lit. A typical flashlight works solely to counter penalties for poor lighting (Although I own a small tactical flashlight which is bright enough to dazzle or temporarilly blind someone at night; I'd build that as a small Flash Attack.).

 

I agree as to "free" flashlights and the like being readily available. (In fact in our Champions campaign one of the characters glows brightly enough to read by.)

 

That's my take on it. I'd build a flashlight as a heavily limited flash attack, and oh, as a special effect, you can use it to illuminate too.

 

If a character can glow as a special effect of a power, or even as Distinctive Features, I can't see spending lots of points or going through rules contortions just to be able to illuminate.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary advises that if you want to illuminate, you need to lighten up.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

The thing I have always thought funny about using Images to create light is this: with Images you can make someone see something as different from how it actually is, but you cannot allow them to detect something they can't normally. You can certainly make them think they are seeing light, and you could even make them think they are seeing a lit up room (out of your own imagination), but how the heck do you make them think they see what is already there but unperceivable (even to you)!? It is like saying light should be created with Mental Illusions!

 

Now I could see Images being Linked to an Enhanced Sense that you could use, and Limiting it to making people see only what you can already perceive. That would be just fine. Images by itself? Give me a break!

 

I never had a problem using Change Environment for creating light, on the other hand.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change Environment vs Images (light only)

 

Hello everybody. Okay, I'll make this quick. Does anybody know why the rules state that providing light is handled only by images and not by change environment? I can see why this would pertain to some situations but not all. Also, it mentions that Change Environment can only have a negative effect (it's especially emphasized in Sidekick). Why?

 

I should also mention that I'm going against the rules on this one. In my campaign lightbulbs/lamps are change environments and obviously have a positive effect (just not in game terms). I just wanted to see what everyones elses opinions are. Possibly getting a better insight on the power itself. Just don't expect me to change my opinion.

The problem is that CE arbitrarily can't give positive effects for some unknown reason, and Light as expressed in game terms gives PER bonuses or PSLs to offset penalties based on the lack of light, which either way are positive.

 

I personally agree that CE is a much more natural means of handling Light that enhances vision, as well as other "favorable" environmental effects but there you have it.