Dogfighting

[Guest daeudi_454]

Putting this here because Star Hero has more use for it...

There are maneuvers for Martial Arts, for ranged fighting, even for Bricks. Fliers, whether supers or in Snub fighters, need more options than move by and move through. Unless these are published in a book I haven't bought yet - anyone want to help me come up with them?

For instance: how about an immelman? DCV bonus? Phases?

[Starwolf]

Re: Dogfighting

 

I agree, I think developing these manuevers would be tre-cool. Immelman, inside loop, outside loop, split s, and my favorite from Wing Commander the "Afterburner Slide".....now to develop some stat!

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Dogfighting

 

I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers. I basically took the custom martial arts structure from UMA and applied it to piloting a fighter, so you can do Grab Bys with a tractor beam, straffing maneuvers and the like. Check it out.

[Doomsdave]

Re: Dogfighting

 

I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers. I basically took the custom martial arts structure from UMA and applied it to piloting a fighter' date=' so you can do Grab Bys with a tractor beam, straffing maneuvers and the like. Check it out.[/quote']

Yeppers, that be it Excellen:D:D. Now all I have to do is build styles.

 

Hmm... inside of a gravity well I can think of another element (2?)... dive and climb- altitude and movement traded for DCV, or some other way of depicting Energy. Suggestions Ben?

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Dogfighting

 

That was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Hmm... inside of a gravity well I can think of another element (2?)... dive and climb- altitude and movement traded for DCV' date=' or some other way of depicting [b']Energy[/b]. Suggestions Ben?

What do you mean by "Energy"? Are you referring to kinetic energy? And what would be the purpose of depicting it; what kind of combat affect are you trying to recreate?

 

As far as diving and climbing; it's tough playing in three dimensions although it is possible to simulate it. I would assume that in a climb you'd suffer a DCV and movement penalty because you lose maneuverability and velocity as you go ballistic whereas in a dive you'd gain a DCV and movement bonus as you gain manueverability and velocity because your relative airspeed is increasing thanks to gravity and you have more airflow over the ailerons. What those penalties/bonuses should be, I'm not quite sure.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Dogfighting

 

That was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks.

Glad it worked for you!

[Zeropoint]

Re: Dogfighting

 

What do you mean by "Energy"? Are you referring to kinetic energy? And what would be the purpose of depicting it; what kind of combat affect are you trying to recreate?

 

Total energy, both kinetic and potential. In World War II dogfights, Energy was an important tactical consideration in a dogfight, because having more increased your options. If you have lots of kinetic energy, you can trade it for potential energy, and climb faster than just having your engine pull you up. If you have lots of potential energy, you can trade it for kinetic energy and exceed your plane's normal top speed.

 

If you're below your opponent and moving slowly, you're in trouble.

 

Of course, in these days of over-the-horizon guided missiles, air-to-air combat takes on a different flavor.

 

Zeropoint

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Total energy, both kinetic and potential. In World War II dogfights, Energy was an important tactical consideration in a dogfight, because having more increased your options. If you have lots of kinetic energy, you can trade it for potential energy, and climb faster than just having your engine pull you up. If you have lots of potential energy, you can trade it for kinetic energy and exceed your plane's normal top speed.

 

If you're below your opponent and moving slowly, you're in trouble.

 

Of course, in these days of over-the-horizon guided missiles, air-to-air combat takes on a different flavor.

 

Zeropoint

 

Bingo- Air Energy is both potential and kinetic energy- A fast moving high altitude plane has high energy, a plane loses energy as it climbs, gains in a dive. lose energy, you stall out, lose DCV, etc. True, its pretty much a moot point with modern fighters, but starfighters almost never use missiles (except to hit the vent to blow up the DS), and it would still be useful for Winged or inherent fliers.

[Mantis]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Drawn from my knowledge of Air Combat Wargaming, here's a list of possible maneuvers to get you started:

 

Slip/Sideslip

Skid

Snap roll (bank faster)

Slat-assisted turn (requires a/c with slats!)

Flap-assisted turn (speed-limited unless a/c has combat flaps)

Dive bomb (requires a/c with dive brakes for best results!)

Vertical Roll (aka aileron turn)/Immelmann

Split-S

Barrel roll

Corkscrew

Unloaded dive

Negative-G turn

Hammerhead/Tailslide

Cobra (requires MiG-29!)

Viffing (requires AV-8/Harrier!)

Terrain-following

 

For space combat, some of these are not applicable, but other fancy moves become possible. For example, in the new series of Battlestar Galactica, one of the Cylons that was being pursued flipped so it was flying backwards, but it could then fire "forwards" at its pursuer. Can't do that in atmosphere!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dogfighting

 

My comment here would be that for starfighters there is completely different three dimensional context than that for atmosphere bound vehicles.

 

Unless a starfighter dogfight is taking place near a gravity well then there is no difference to direction changes in any of the three dimensions - this might mean that some of the manoeuvres that prove effective in aircraft will not be as useful in space combat...

 

 

Doc

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Dogfighting

 

For space combat' date=' some of these are not applicable, but other fancy moves become possible. For example, in the new series of Battlestar Galactica, one of the Cylons that was being pursued flipped so it was flying backwards, but it could then fire "forwards" at its pursuer. Can't do that in atmosphere![/quote']

 

hehehe! I once did that in a Robotech game as I was skimming the edge the atmosphere. I toasted the Zentraedi on my tail, but ended up ripping off my wings as I hit the friction. Alas, I failed my eject roll. (not that my character had a prayer of surviving re-entry anyway.)

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Has anybody here taken a look at Chapter 8 of The Ultimate Vehicle? Steve and I cover a lot of this in there.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Has anybody here taken a look at Chapter 8 of The Ultimate Vehicle? Steve and I cover a lot of this in there.

 

Unless these are published in a book I haven't bought yet - anyone want to help me come up with them?

I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers.

 

The DH#19 was great!

The question popped into my head after watching a show about dogfights on the History Channel. I then realized that very few games cover this in depth at all.

Hadn't bought UV yet mainly because there is little need for it in the games I am in or run... That and I figured it was mostly rehash of FRED and StarHero.

(Not that I have anything against rehashes- I bought and love the Equipment book!)

 

Does Ultimate Vehicle cover Air Energy? Or go even more in depth into Aerial Maneuvers?

[Nyrath]

Re: Dogfighting

 

There are a few interesting maneuvers in GURPS:Lensman.

These were all cinematic space-opera type maneuvers.

 

The "Follow The Leader" maneuver re-enacted the scene in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK when Han Solo dives the Millennium Falcon into the asteroid field, hotly pursued by TIE fighters. The pursued ship choses a penalty to the starship piloting roll. Each pursuing ship choses between accepting the penalty or chickening out by breaking off pursuit. Failure to make the roll results in ship damage or destruction. If the pursued ship fails by just a little, or the pursuing ship make their roll by a lot, the pursuing ship get bonuses to their attack rolls.

 

The "Reversal" maneuver re-enacts the stale old Battlestar Galactica gag. While being chased, hit your reverse thrusters, let the bad guys leap frog you, then attack their rear.

[Christougher]

Re: Dogfighting

 

 

Which isn't all that surprising when I went back to the beginning of the Star Hero forums for ideas, and this thread GAVE me the idea that I'm posting now...

 

Using martial or standard maneuvers to give some flavor to dogfighting is nothing new (see this thread) but in reading it I was struck with an idea:

 

In a dogfight, tailing your opponent is considered to be the better position, and a lot of thought and effort goes into making this work. My idea is simple: the Grab maneuver. The "grabbed" victim is being tailed by the attacker until such time as the Grab is broken. I haven't yet come up with an effective device for breaking the grab, though opposed Combat Piloting rolls come to mind. The half DCV penalty when grabbing explains why you have wingmen taking easy shots at the pursuers.

 

I'm still working on fleshing this idea out, comments and suggestions are welcome!

 

Chris.

[Christopher]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Great idea. How about using Movement Power AP instead of STR?

While raw speed isn't important, the power of your engine is...

 

Other things like trip can also work.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Dogfighting

 

I put a few of these in Terracide for use in space combat, but they weren't "dogfighting" maneuvers as such. Mainly because space combat in my campaign doesn't conform to the "Sopwith Camels In Spaaace!" paradigm.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Dogfighting

 

My comment here would be that for starfighters there is completely different three dimensional context than that for atmosphere bound vehicles.

 

Unless a starfighter dogfight is taking place near a gravity well then there is no difference to direction changes in any of the three dimensions - this might mean that some of the manoeuvres that prove effective in aircraft will not be as useful in space combat...

 

 

Doc

 

I had written up some maneuvers at some point, with a separate list for "zero-g" maneuvers. Many maneuvers from atmospheric dogfighting could still work in space, but they would be more easily countered, etc. A lot of dogfighting techniques rely on using gravity to your advantage.

 

Can't find it now, searched forums and all, could have sworn I posted them.

 

"Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mond the most."

[Daeglan]

Re: Dogfighting

 

i wonder what WWII manuevers would look like with no up or down but still atmospheric.

[Old Man]

Re: Dogfighting

 

i wonder what WWII manuevers would look like with no up or down but still atmospheric.

 

They wouldn't be very interesting, since most WWII maneuvers aside from the Thach weave involve vertical movement. Split-Ss, Immelmans, loops, yo-yos, Cuban eights, and the tried-and-true tactic of diving passes all involve the vertical plane. Once you squish it down to 2-D all you have is lead and lag pursuit, and maybe barrel rolls.

 

That said a lot of these maneuvers are maneuvers because of gravity and the close proximity of a planetary surface. In space-based 'flight sims' I've played, the third dimension becomes less important--there are no speed differences that you get from facing a particular direction, so all you're doing is turning as hard as possible to point your craft at the target.

[Daeglan]

Re: Dogfighting

 

Not what i meant. Still 3d. but no gravity. IE no energy management. Diving does not increase velocity and climbing does not decrease speed. but otherwise things work as in WW2

[Christougher]

Re: Dogfighting

 

You could still follow the motions to perform the maneuvers, they still look the same, they just don't have the same level of effect. The reasons those maneuvers work is because of the tradeoffs in speed and altitude. A hammerhead stall in space is not going to cause a stall; though its twists and turns might provide some defensive benefit. Similarly with a split-s, unless your craft has distinctly different turning capacities along different axes (something HERO doesn't reflect), you're just turning around.

 

Hmm. Makes me think that when I go back to atmospheric dogfighting maneuvers, adding a new category for plus and minus flight speed would be interesting.

 

The Wing Commander games had a brief bit on some tactics for the player, though they weren't that great. Sit and Spin and Sit and Kick are the only ones I remember - come to a dead stop and turn. Then again it did pay off *once* when I couldn't find a stealthed fighter. Sat and waited until it came up behind me, then spun and fed it a dumb fire missile. They also had the Shelton Slide, a feature to lock forward acceleration while freeing movement controls - you could spin 180 degrees behind yourself to fire at a target in a different direction than you were heading. The naming coming from the pilot who slid sideways past a carrier deck firing on all the parked craft.

 

Chris.

[Daeglan]

Re: Dogfighting

 

wôuldn't happen to have HD prefabs.

[Daeglan]

Re: Dogfighting

 

I had written up some maneuvers at some point' date=' with a separate list for "zero-g" maneuvers. Many maneuvers from atmospheric dogfighting [i']could[/i] still work in space, but they would be more easily countered, etc. A lot of dogfighting techniques rely on using gravity to your advantage.

 

 

Can't find it now, searched forums and all, could have sworn I posted them.

 

"Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mond the most."

 

any hd prefabs?