Can this Detect even work?

[zornwil]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

On a sheerly practical experience POV, looking at it from a GM's perspective, it could set a WAY dangerous precident.

Example:

From my perspective as a player...

If I had thought through this kinda detect before and thus could justify it SFX wise, I sure as hell would have worked up something like this with my gadgeteer when we went up against Zodiac. After about the third time they ALL escaped with their mass badguy t-port "bad guys get away" power, if I could've come up with something that would have been able to snif out t-port locations, I EVENTUALLY would have figured out a way to correlate the data together into some targeting coordinates. Followed by a barrage of small yeild fission weapons... I used to get VERY frustrated at being yanked around by bald-faced plot devices.

 

One of the resasons why I've never been to fond of modules.... I hate the "Something happens so you respond, but alll the bad guys get away and so you have to wait and do it again. Repeat." Plot style the sometimes produce. As is, after the third enstallment, the plot kinda petered out. I think the GM realized how frustrated we were... I literally think we KILLED 3 or 4 members of Zodiac in that 3rd fight. We morphed from Bronze age to the hardest of Iron age we were so determined that these F*&kers wouldn't get away clean again. It was interesting to see just HOW insane we were able to get with creative teamwork, pulling out all the reasonable stops, and making sure that various powers (VPP's & MP's) were configured in the optimal ways.

 

Granted a lot of the teamwork consisted of "set them up so the gadgeteer can lock on with his computer, analyze their defences and then blow big fri&&n holes through them with his big a$$ed anti-super gun."

Like I said... we went Iron age all over those mothers.

 

Sorry... derailed with a little warstory there...

 

Yeah, anyway... IF we'd have been able to trace T-ports in any fashion, bad things probably would've happened.

I think it's like any plot-destroying power, and there are FAR worse than this (clairsentience, precognition, mind scan, life form detects), you just have to find a balance as well as figure how opponents adapt to such things. But you raise a great point.

[zornwil]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Sounds like more of an issue of an adversarial mindset on the part of the players and / or the GM rather than a storytelling mindset.

 

 

The classic supers genre doesnt work well as an adversarial game, IMO, for just that sort of reason -- ultimately extreme "final solutions" start to happen, and that breaks the genre. If the players are do not allow the campaign to play out in a fashion similar to the way comic books are written -- the simulationist / storybuilding approach -- then every thing boils down to who can kill who. Personally I find that sort of a scenario to be a travesty of the genre and incredibly boring to boot.

 

 

Personally, from my vicarious impressions of Dr. Anamoly's posts I think his group is more storytelling based, in which case the ability would definitely be an interesting story hook and allow the GM and player(s) to collaborate to create an interesting series of events. I could be wrong however, and if the group is more adversarial then the capacity for such an ability to frag over opponents w/ TPort should certainly be considered.

To be fair, I think the instance he raises is sound storytelling, just not "classic" superhero. I daresay most groups dislike many of the classic tropes and deliberately stomp on them for the sake of good storytelling, because so many of the classic comics engage in intrinsically bad storytelling, such as is implied in AmadanNaBriona's example. Double that with the fact his group is playing bronze, and such occasional responses make sense. Don't get me wrong, I think you raise a valid point (more to it below), but I also think that too often there's a valid reason for simulating a particular source material and doing so in a manner that isn't as brain-dead as some of the worse tropes of that source material.

 

However, more to your point, KS, there does need to be a group consensus as to what is being simulated and how it plays against said tropes and what things the group can and cannot tolerate. Which raises an important general issue/topic. Without getting deep into it here, it's not as simple done as said, since for any given genre of play there are often hundreds of nuances that theoretically require such agreement but there's no practical way to do so before encountering those nuances and the group feeling its way through who likes what - the ongoing evolution of any playing group and its group-think. For example, in my campaign I tned towards the "revolving door until it's just time to take care of the target once and for all" rather than the "classic" revolving door that never ends. Players do know/expect the prisons not to do a good job with many of the more nasty or interesting NPCs, but then again they expect at some reasonable point a permanent (or at least something like that) defeat is possible without having to resort to being killers or dimensional exilers (not that both haven't happened on what I would consider story-appropriate occassions) out of frustration. And many opponents just stay locked up after the first time.

 

PS - actually we're pretty much saying the same thing actually, I'm just fleshing out some speculation on ANB's game and extrapolating thereof, in addition to echoing your basic point

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

...or good storytelling is hard with a bad story!

 

I have two groups I play with and the weekly group is not really story based, more character and humour oriented. This means when I'm running games I can whack in story elements, see which ones they pick up and run with them. Doesn't really make them any more story oriented, but at least they can polish up their characters and have a laugh in an environment of their chosing.

 

Ultimately, story, rules, the whole nine yards is just there to give those playing enjoyment, and if you are enjoying it there is nothing wrong with a random dungeon full of munchkins.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Personally' date=' from my vicarious impressions of Dr. Anamoly's posts I think his group is more storytelling based, in which case the ability would definitely be an interesting story hook and allow the GM and player(s) to collaborate to create an interesting series of events. I could be wrong however, and if the group is more adversarial then the capacity for such an ability to frag over opponents w/ TPort should certainly be considered.[/quote']

Yes, much more storytelling & character based rather than "adversarial"; oh, make no mistake -- my players love a good, old-fashioned superfight, but not in the "we have to kill our opponents" D&D-style fight.

 

Actually, I'm really the only one who worries about mechanics, power builds, and so forth. The discussion usually goes something like this:

 

Player: "I want to do xxxx."

 

Me: "Well, you do it [method 1], [method 2], or [method 3]."

 

Player: "Which one's better?"

 

Me: "Depends on what you mean by 'better'..."

 

[much discussion settles on an answer]

 

The above gets repeated a lot, but with variations...sometimes it's the total point cost of the ability...it ends up being too much for what the player has to work with...so the idea has to be dropped, downgraded, significantly changed, or negiotiated with to me.

 

Quite often I'm in the position of saying "Hey, xxxx is a good idea. That makes me think, though...what about yyyyyyy and zzzzz abilities? Do those appeal to you?" Currently the 'detect teleport locations' is something just buzzing around in my head, and not something I've suggested yet. I still don't know if I will, but I want to thank everyone for the discussion. It's been interesting, enlightening, and continues to be so.

[zornwil]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

...or good storytelling is hard with a bad story!

 

I have two groups I play with and the weekly group is not really story based, more character and humour oriented. This means when I'm running games I can whack in story elements, see which ones they pick up and run with them. Doesn't really make them any more story oriented, but at least they can polish up their characters and have a laugh in an environment of their chosing.

 

Ultimately, story, rules, the whole nine yards is just there to give those playing enjoyment, and if you are enjoying it there is nothing wrong with a random dungeon full of munchkins.

You raise a good point about RPGing - our stories, in and of themselves, don't have to be good for an RPG session itself ot be great. An interesting thought, really, especially if you throw it into the whole "RPG as art" discussion.

[Mister E]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

On the topic of detecting Fixed and Floating Fixed Locations for Teleport:

 

I think the term 'memorize' is a distracting phrase that falsely describes what is going on. 'Attune' would be a be a better word, and highlights the connection existing between the Character and his Fixed Teleport Locations.

 

Obviously SFX is the primary issue in this matter, so there are arguments and exceptions; but just about any Fixed Location (stationary, or mobile; unchanging or floating) should inherently possess some form of tangible or intangible link to the Teleporter, either directly, or via some SFX vector.

 

If you were to use Mental Awareness as a precedent, it is an example of a special Detect that is awarded to Characters for taking Powers with a specific SFX. I could see a DM making a similar ruling in the case of Teleporters for most SFX, solely on the basis that there should be some form of in-game interface medium that the Teleport Power uses to function.

 

I think Tracking could be allowed to link Teleporters to their Fixed Locations, and vise versa.

 

Descriminate could be used to determine who a Fixed Location belongs to.

 

Analyse could be used to find out when it was last used, how frequently it's been used, and other details.

 

If there is no in-game connection between a Fixed Location and the Teleporter, why should a Teleport Power be given the Fixed Location Adder in the first place?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Were the floating locations purchased with "fully invisible"?

 

(humor)

[i3ullseye]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I couldn't disagree more. Memorize is the EXACT phrase to use, because thats what is occurring. You are correct, SPFX and in game considerations can change any of this, but the basic nature of Fixed and Floating points woudl in NO WAY have a link back to the teleporter. It represents an extreme familiarity with the location. He knows how to navigate there without a chance of becoming lost.

 

This is like knowing your way home. No matter how you travel, by bike or by foot, you can make it home without rolling to see if you find it. This doesn;t mean there is any real link between you, the bike or your home. It is just a level of familiarity with the location.

[Mister E]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I couldn't disagree more. Memorize is the EXACT phrase to use, because thats what is occurring. You are correct, SPFX and in game considerations can change any of this, but the basic nature of Fixed and Floating points woudl in NO WAY have a link back to the teleporter. It represents an extreme familiarity with the location. He knows how to navigate there without a chance of becoming lost.

 

This is like knowing your way home. No matter how you travel, by bike or by foot, you can make it home without rolling to see if you find it. This doesn;t mean there is any real link between you, the bike or your home. It is just a level of familiarity with the location.

And how does the Teleporter use this mnemonic SFX device (of having intimate detailed familiarity with a location) to allow him to locate and teleport to his Fixed Location, when he doesn't even know where he is, or have any relative orientation to his Fixed Location? How does memorization explain being able to Teleport to a mobile Fixed Location, like the superteam's jet, or his girlfriend? And for that matter, if the Teleporter has a Floating Fixed Location, why is it that a Character losses his extreme familiarity with a subject just because he gains extreme familiarity with another? Is his brain full? Likewise, what is it in the Teleporter that gifts him with an extreme familiarity with a subject, in the first place?

[i3ullseye]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Again, all in how you interpret the rules. He may be able to sense his dimensional alignment at the point of teleporting. Maybe each spot feels differrent when they arrive, and he matches the feeling. Most likely, he pictures the destination in his head, and then materializes i the area that most closely matches it.

 

I have always viewed it as looking inward myself. Let's make some assumptions, and not get too deep in nonexistential philosophy for a moment, but let's say that we are part of the greater whole of the universe. All this energry is part of us, and we part of it. To some, the universe only exists because we perceive it, so changing our perceptions of it in a superhero gamecan change our location within this perception.

 

With teleport things are instantaneous, so it is kind of hard to break it down, but the actual process might be very much like trying to orient yourself if you are lost and have flight. If you are lost, but can fly, you can fly upward and gain altitude. As you get a higher perspective, you look for landmarks or land shapes that look familiar... once you see one, you then move toward it to get more detail and re-orient yourself.

 

If you live in Tampa, once you go so high, you will recognize Florida and be able to fly toward where you need to be.

 

Since teleport is moving between dimensions, perhaps even distorting time, maybe all this IS happeneing. Maybe it is too fast for the teleporter themselves to even perceive what they are instinctively doing. They fade away and enter the stream.... and as they enter, they are in tune with the nexus of all these points and dimensions. Now they emerge form those points that are familiar, and it coudl happen in the blink of an eye but STILL take the steps to move toward more comfortable or familiar surroundings.

 

Maybe at the point of teleport there is an inherent GPS like sense that allows the teleporter to orient themselves.

 

Point is, there are many MANY interpretations possible. But as written, nothing would suggest that there is any tracable link between the teleporter and their destination except at the actual time of teleporting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

You raise a good point about RPGing - our stories' date=' in and of themselves, don't have to be good for an RPG session itself ot be great. An interesting thought, really, especially if you throw it into the whole "RPG as art" discussion.[/quote']

 

 

....and boy, have I been privileged to be involved in some modern impressionist (surrealist?) masterpieces

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I suppose the questions any GM faced with a detect like this should be asking are:

 

1. Do I want to allow some/all teleport locations to be detectable?

2. Is there, at some level, a common sfx that links all teleport locations (requires a disturbance in the dimensional flux) no matter what the overriding sfx (technology/magic/etc). If there is (in this world) then the detect can work, but if there is not then a single detect should not be able to pick up all teleport locations.

 

In other words this is not a game mechanics question - the game mechanics can handle the construct with no problem - it is a plot/world sfx preference question.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Also, if there is no common link between the various teleports... it can still be done as a precog or temporal anomoly sense, but it will be considerably more expiensive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Also' date=' if there is no common link between the various teleports... it can still be done as a precog or temporal anomoly sense, but it will be considerably more expiensive.[/quote']

 

Maybe by postcog, but a teleport location might be set but never actually used, so unless you have a sense that enables you to detect the moment someone decides to set it, I can not see what there is (necessarily) to detect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Interesting point, actually: if you have some sort of detect defined as 'limited telepathy' or somesuch, then you are effectively allowing, for that limited purpose, the bypassing of mental defences.....

[transmetahuman]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I would never allow a completely metagame Detect like this. Think of it from the character's point of view - what does *he* think he's detecting? If you can't define your Detect in terms of the world you're in, without referring to game rules, you can cause all kinds of conflicts with SFX. I'd take the same approach to Adjustment powers. You have to be able to define the effect without referring to game mechanics.

 

Even a mystic sense has to be looking for something defineable in IC terms. You detect places where people will teleport to? Fine, you're going to detect every place that anyone will ever teleport to, whether they've memorized it or just bamfed to it from across the street (actually, I wouldn't allow that because I don't allow causality violation or any kind of precog, but for the sake of argument). Actually, even if I did allow precog, I wouldn't let a Detect do that anyway, any more than I'd let you have a Detect: People who are going to commit crimes, or a Detect: Memories, Discriminatory- use Precog or Telepathy, respectively.

 

At the same time, though, I'd do the same thing with the teleporters and make them define the mechanics of the fixed or floating locations. And there probably would be a more-or-less standard version, which you *could* buy a Detect for, since I agree that mobile memorized locations and not knowing where you're starting the 'port from both sort of imply a psychic imprint or something. But there are all kinds of different powers that use the same teleport mechanics in completely different ways.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I would never allow a completely metagame Detect like this. Think of it from the character's point of view - what does *he* think he's detecting? If you can't define your Detect in terms of the world you're in, without referring to game rules, you can cause all kinds of conflicts with SFX. I'd take the same approach to Adjustment powers. You have to be able to define the effect without referring to game mechanics.

 

Even a mystic sense has to be looking for something defineable in IC terms. You detect places where people will teleport to? Fine, you're going to detect every place that anyone will ever teleport to, whether they've memorized it or just bamfed to it from across the street (actually, I wouldn't allow that because I don't allow causality violation or any kind of precog, but for the sake of argument). Actually, even if I did allow precog, I wouldn't let a Detect do that anyway, any more than I'd let you have a Detect: People who are going to commit crimes, or a Detect: Memories, Discriminatory- use Precog or Telepathy, respectively.

 

At the same time, though, I'd do the same thing with the teleporters and make them define the mechanics of the fixed or floating locations. And there probably would be a more-or-less standard version, which you *could* buy a Detect for, since I agree that mobile memorized locations and not knowing where you're starting the 'port from both sort of imply a psychic imprint or something. But there are all kinds of different powers that use the same teleport mechanics in completely different ways.

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. I believe that this sort of thing can only be determined in the context of a specific game world, rather than as a general proposition.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. I believe that this sort of thing can only be determined in the context of a specific game world' date=' rather than as a general proposition.[/quote']

 

SFX is definitely important, but it really boils down to the question of how the teleport "tagging" functions. That is, is it an active or passive tag?

 

Active genre-specific case:

A "transporter-lock" in Star Trek (any series) constitutes an active effect. A lock cannot be established due to shields that are in place near the target. There were even episodes in different series that dealt with this lock being detected and intercepted by another transport device/power.

 

Passive genre-specific case:

A "Trump-place-drawings" from Roger Zelazney's Amber series was a memory of a place given form. It could be blocked at the destination in so much that ALL Trump abilities might be blocked but it did not appear that any residual imprint was left on a target of one of the "Trump-place-drawings".

 

A detect is definitely valid in the 1st case but far more limited in the 2nd (probably only when a contact is actively occuring). Really no different than whether a sense like Sonar is bought passive. How can one character tell if another is using passive sonar or not? They can't by hearing alone. A detect based on sensing meta-power usage or a mental based detect might work however.

 

Whatever the solution requires a careful agreement between the player and the GM on how and when the power will work.

 

HM

[Mister E]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I think the crux of the situation, is that the target of the Detect, has to be the object (material or immaterial) of the Teleport Location; and whether or not there is something to detect, depends on the SFX.

 

Oh, and after giving it some thought, I've figured that memory of a Teleport Location, possessed in the mind of the Teleporter, definitaly constitutes a connection to the Teleport Location. Think about it.

 

 

~ Mister E

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

I think the crux of the situation, is that the target of the Detect, has to be the object (material or immaterial) of the Teleport Location; and whether or not there is something to detect, depends on the SFX.

 

Oh, and after giving it some thought, I've figured that memory of a Teleport Location, possessed in the mind of the Teleporter, definitaly constitutes a connection to the Teleport Location. Think about it.

 

 

~ Mister E

 

I have.

 

How about a character who has the ability to know his relative location in relation to anywhere (the surface of the planet, where he is in the solar system, etc..)?

 

Buy Bump of Direction, Lightning Calculator, Absolute Range Sense, Absolute Time Sense and Eidetic Memory. Throw in a navigation and area knowledge skill or two plus a mega-movement ability like flight or running and you have a Living GPS-Unit character who justifiably could also purchase a mega-teleport with floating locations since all his other abilities already effectively give him that ability without any direct connection to the target location. The floating locations are just a higher order of accuracy like that of leaping with and without the accurate adder.

 

HM

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Buy Bump of Direction' date=' Lightning Calculator, Absolute Range Sense, Absolute Time Sense and Eidetic Memory. Throw in a navigation and area knowledge skill or two plus a mega-movement ability like flight or running and you have a [u']Living GPS-Unit character[/u] who justifiably could also purchase a mega-teleport with floating locations since all his other abilities already effectively give him that ability without any direct connection to the target location. The floating locations are just a higher order of accuracy like that of leaping with and without the accurate adder.

Do you mean "purchase floating locations to represent my living GPS ability" as in "I purchase floating locations, but never have to go there and 'memorize' them first, because of my living GPS ability" or "my living GPS ability is my reason for being able to purchase floating locations in the first place"?

 

The reason I ask is the rules specifically state that if you can't perceive your destination location, you are teleporting blind and have to make an attack roll, possibly miss & thus "scatter" (like a thrown grenade) and so on. Plus it also says that you have to spend a full turn studying a location to memorize it, and that you can't do that via Clairsentience or by looking at a location on TV or whatever (without GM permission in the case of the Clairsentience).

 

And nothing in the build you mentioned for the 'Living GPS' set-up includes any kind of megaranged sense with which to perceive the location, study it, and memorize it as a floating location.

[OddHat]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

While I wouldn't let Living GPS Man change his floaring locations without memorizing them a per the rules, with that set of powers I would let him target any location as if he could perceive it with a non-targetting sense; that seems fair for Bump of DIrection and Absolute Range sense working together, especially with a good AK added in.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can this Detect even work?

 

Do you mean "purchase floating locations to represent my living GPS ability" as in "I purchase floating locations, but never have to go there and 'memorize' them first, because of my living GPS ability" or "my living GPS ability is my reason for being able to purchase floating locations in the first place"?

 

The reason I ask is the rules specifically state that if you can't perceive your destination location, you are teleporting blind and have to make an attack roll, possibly miss & thus "scatter" (like a thrown grenade) and so on. Plus it also says that you have to spend a full turn studying a location to memorize it, and that you can't do that via Clairsentience or by looking at a location on TV or whatever (without GM permission in the case of the Clairsentience).

 

And nothing in the build you mentioned for the 'Living GPS' set-up includes any kind of megaranged sense with which to perceive the location, study it, and memorize it as a floating location.

 

 

To answer your first question, it's definitely option two. Let's take the megascale bit out of the equation. Say you have a character with all the other abilities I described above. The character should be able to use any applicable movement power including Teleport anywhere in his normal movement range, even if later blinded, by way of those abilities without having to make an attack roll by the definition of those abilities. It may not be a 'safe' Teleport depending on the SFX of the movement itself but the points spent on the talents cover the same ability.

 

As far as the perceive, study and memorize question. I think the time, range, calculator and eidetic talents in combination do exactly that, especially if the character has actually been to the target and studied it with with eidetic memory. As I recall, the pre-GPS versions of the Tomahawk cruise missle self-navigated to their targets by a setup very similar to this. Their limitation was the accuracy of the onboard digital maps. Is this method going to be as accurate as a true 'floating location' of Teleport? Not quite, but it would be very very close. I would imagine it is going give a better result than any other means available.

 

HM