Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

[Trebuchet]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

So Treb whats Z'lfs answer to that little conundrom.

Zl'f has no answer to that conundrum; she is the answer. That's why she's built the way she is - high SPD, high DEX, very low defenses and other Characteristics. A 50+ STR version of her would be unfair to the other players; nor would it be nearly as much fun to play and roleplay.

 

I guess it wasn't clear that it was a rhetorical question.

 

Numbers are not irrelevant in Hero; I just happen to think Gary assigns them far too much weight. You can't create balanced characters by simple point counting no matter how you reprice things within the system. I don't care if you recost down to two decimal points; it still won't work. The system uses character points only as first order approximations; fine tuning is the responsibility of the GM. Certain combinations of Skills, Powers, Advantages, and Characteristics will always be more effective than their point cost suggests. You can't take the GM out of the equation.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Right' date=' and this is where economics fails to model the situation. For conception or game balance reasons, people deliberately make "suboptimal" choices for purchases.[/quote']I disagree that the model doesn't apply. Basic economic rules are still at work. People in the real world have always made and/or not made purchases for "suboptimal" or seemingly trivial reasons: Didn't like the color, prefer a certain brand, like that restaurant's food and/or service better, need red and not blue, looks better and/or more stylish, superior materials, etc. Personal preferences have always been just as much part of economics as resources. Even point or power caps have a real-world analogue - available space; time to work on the hobby, etc. At some point even Jay Leno has to decide between building/renting a bigger garage or not buying another car for his extensive car collection. Character Points spent on CON or Seduction are not available for Lockpicking or PRE, which under the right circumstances may become far more important. A 100 CON will not help you think your way out of a trap (and if you do, the 100 PRE guard will just order you back into the cell. ).

 

Well, this same system values 100 Str, 100 Con, and 125 Stun at 6 pts less than 40 Str, 50 Con, and 120 Stun.

 

So +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun is worth -6 pts.

 

If you don't believe me, take a look at Eclipsar in Champions Worldwide and do the math.

I don't have CW (and don't plan to purchase it either) so I can't look at this character, but if he's so far off kilter then what's the point of even trying to assign new arbitrary values to Characteristics in Hero? In essence you're saying Hero is totally broken and we might as well start from scratch - IOW, play another system.

 

Do you know of any GM who'd actually allow a PC who bought +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun and thus somehow paid 6 less CP than an otherwise identical PC to play in their campaign? Or would most GMs correctly castigate the player for Lethal Munchkin Overload and tell him "Not in my campaign!"?

[i3ullseye]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Where i think the economics comparison fails is when you look at each individual item itself. Sure, as stated it is very much like do you want to spend your money on a Microwave or a DVD Player, or a refrigerator. But in this system, there are no competing refrigerators, only one type of DVD Player, and a single type of microwave.

 

There is only 1 strength, no various types of strength you can buy which prompts market competition to keep the price of strength in check against it's competitors. Spending HERO points is resource allocation, to be certain. But those resources are fixed and unchanging, and your purchases are static items. I think that deviates form a free market economy model pretty drastically.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

I disagree that the model doesn't apply. Basic economic rules are still at work. People in the real world have always made and/or not made purchases for "suboptimal" or seemingly trivial reasons: Didn't like the color, prefer a certain brand, like that restaurant's food and/or service better, need red and not blue, looks better and/or more stylish, superior materials, etc. Personal preferences have always been just as much part of economics as resources. Even point or power caps have a real-world analogue - available space; time to work on the hobby, etc. At some point even Jay Leno has to decide between building/renting a bigger garage or not buying another car for his extensive car collection. Character Points spent on CON or Seduction are not available for Lockpicking or PRE, which under the right circumstances may become far more important. A 100 CON will not help you think your way out of a trap (and if you do, the 100 PRE guard will just order you back into the cell. ).

 

I don't have CW (and don't plan to purchase it either) so I can't look at this character, but if he's so far off kilter then what's the point of even trying to assign new arbitrary values to Characteristics in Hero? In essence you're saying Hero is totally broken and we might as well start from scratch - IOW, play another system.

 

Do you know of any GM who'd actually allow a PC who bought +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun and thus somehow paid 6 less CP than an otherwise identical PC to play in their campaign? Or would most GMs correctly castigate the player for Lethal Munchkin Overload and tell him "Not in my campaign!"?

Are we sure that 60 STR, 50 CON, and 5 STUN isn't a feature rather than a bug? Bear in mind the effects on other chars.

 

I think most GMs might not notice, since +60 STR and +50 CON are acceptable enough (if within campaign limits) on the face of it.

 

Although I'm not sure I understand this point. Gary, are you saying 5 STUN end result, with the other 120 "refunded"?

 

I'm not following the "6 points less" part.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

PS - I'm saying above because:

 

100 STR, 100 CON, 125 STUN costs 285 points.

40 STR, 50 CON, 120 STUN costs 175 points.

60 STR (since both figures are mentioned), 50 CON, 120 STUN of course costs 185 points.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Where i think the economics comparison fails is when you look at each individual item itself. Sure, as stated it is very much like do you want to spend your money on a Microwave or a DVD Player, or a refrigerator. But in this system, there are no competing refrigerators, only one type of DVD Player, and a single type of microwave.

 

There is only 1 strength, no various types of strength you can buy which prompts market competition to keep the price of strength in check against it's competitors. Spending HERO points is resource allocation, to be certain. But those resources are fixed and unchanging, and your purchases are static items. I think that deviates form a free market economy model pretty drastically.

Not at all. We don't have a totally true free market economy in the real world either; both government and industry imposes certain standards (common system of measurements; binding contracts, etc.)

 

What does STR actually do for a character?

 

Lift? Buy TK No Range.

Throw? Buy TK or Flight UAA.

Jump? Buy Leaping.

Damage? Buy HA or EB or Martial Arts.

PD? Buy PD or Armor or FF.

REC? Buy REC directly.

STUN? Buy STUN directly.

 

You're still spending a limited amount of resources, and must still choose between a nearly infinite number of possibilities. Yes, there's a certain artificiality to it. But it's no different with economics in the real world, or people wouldn't pay $150+ for a pair of Nike shoes that costs only $5 to manufacture or $5 for a latte. The costs in Hero are far less artificial, because they at least have some correlation with actual game usefulness. But those $150 sneakers won't magically make you Michael Jordan on the basketball court. The $40 pair probably work just as well; and leaves you cash for a jogging suit too.

[Markdoc]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

I wholely agree with this' date=' but permit me to observe that this was a conscious decision on our part and not accidental.[/quote']

 

Heh - I never thought it was accidental. As I noted, we went through the same evolution. It's just that it took us three or four years to get there, and my experience has been that some groups never do.

 

As I've commented before, if everyone is willing to work things out, virtually any set of rules will suffice - but for less balanced groups, rules are very important becuase they define the play dynamic.

 

I like Hero because it does a better job of this than any other system I have tried, but there are still a few distortions that can be tweaked.

 

cheers, Mark

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

As an interesting aside, another "market force" is the knowledge that the GM can and will counter most anything for the sake of a good story/challenge.

 

So being the guy with defenses requiring some ungoldy attack makes you think about the fact that such an attack WILL occur sometime - and might hit your teammates by mistake...leads to interesting decisions as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

As an interesting aside, another "market force" is the knowledge that the GM can and will counter most anything for the sake of a good story/challenge.

 

So being the guy with defenses requiring some ungoldy attack makes you think about the fact that such an attack WILL occur sometime - and might hit your teammates by mistake...leads to interesting decisions as well.

 

I've said it before, but buying Regrowth sends a clear message to the GM that you want your character's arms and legs chopped off.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Heh - I never thought it was accidental. As I noted, we went through the same evolution. It's just that it took us three or four years to get there, and my experience has been that some groups never do.

 

As I've commented before, if everyone is willing to work things out, virtually any set of rules will suffice - but for less balanced groups, rules are very important becuase they define the play dynamic.

I decided on our campaign's original parameters after both years of playing in a munchkin-rich game and a failed attempt on my part to spin off another campaign based on the Wild Cards books. From those experiences I learned what to do and not to do.

 

First on the "do" list was personal compatability between players. We're all friends first; co-players/GMs second. The original group in MidGuard (Mentor, El Tripon, Trebuchet) has known each other well over 20 years; two current members are children of one of the original members. I don't feel jealous when a friend's PC shines in a scenario; I'm happy for him.

 

Second was admission to the campaign was by invitation only - no more "drop ins" where you never knew who'd or how many players would show up and/or what PC they would play. We've just now admitted a new player after a nearly two year wait.

 

Third was that every GM must approve a new character, and any GM has veto rights on a build (this has gotten a lot simpler with e-mail and Hero Designer). Given that we currently have 5 GMs, that's a lot of negotiation and discussion so nobody gets caught flatfooted. Expenditure of XP requires the consent of several (and preferably all) GMs. Most XP spending is routinely approved but GMs do have veto rights.

[Gary]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Are we sure that 60 STR, 50 CON, and 5 STUN isn't a feature rather than a bug? Bear in mind the effects on other chars.

 

I think most GMs might not notice, since +60 STR and +50 CON are acceptable enough (if within campaign limits) on the face of it.

 

Although I'm not sure I understand this point. Gary, are you saying 5 STUN end result, with the other 120 "refunded"?

 

I'm not following the "6 points less" part.

 

Eclipsar has:

 

40 Str 30

50 Con 80

25 Body 30

20 PD 12

20 ED 10

40 Rec 44

200 End 50

120 Stun 50

 

Total cost is 306 for these stats. She could also hypothetically purchase:

 

100 Str 90

100 Con 180

25 Body 30

20 PD 0

20 ED 0

40 Rec 0

200 End 0

125 Stun 0

 

Total cost is 300. So for 6 fewer points, she gets +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun.

 

If I'm violating any Hero Games IP by posting these stats, please let me know and I'll remove them.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Eclipsar has:

 

40 Str 30

50 Con 80

25 Body 30

20 PD 12

20 ED 10

40 Rec 44

200 End 50

120 Stun 50

 

Total cost is 306 for these stats. She could also hypothetically purchase:

 

100 Str 90

100 Con 180

25 Body 30

20 PD 0

20 ED 0

40 Rec 0

200 End 0

125 Stun 0

 

Total cost is 300. So for 6 fewer points, she gets +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun.

 

If I'm violating any Hero Games IP by posting these stats, please let me know and I'll remove them.

Okay, thanks, I see.

 

There are poor examples in the books; this would seem to be one of them. Although it would depend to on campaign AP limits which could force the first scenario at least in terms of limiting the STR purchase (wouldn't see how someone would spend so "little" on CON but want the derived stats to be high, anyway, so it's still a bad example, unless people customarily impose CON limits).

 

But you're right it's an easy mistake to make. In a high-powered campaign you'd certainly want to ensure the latter build. But on the other hand I can see how the form could be imposed if there are limits on basic chars, which could be reasonable even if cost-ineffective.

[OddHat]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Eclipsar has:

 

40 Str 30

50 Con 80

25 Body 30

20 PD 12

20 ED 10

40 Rec 44

200 End 50

120 Stun 50

 

Total cost is 306 for these stats. She could also hypothetically purchase:

 

100 Str 90

100 Con 180

25 Body 30

20 PD 0

20 ED 0

40 Rec 0

200 End 0

125 Stun 0

 

Total cost is 300. So for 6 fewer points, she gets +60 Str, +50 Con, and +5 Stun.

 

If I'm violating any Hero Games IP by posting these stats, please let me know and I'll remove them.

 

Okay, thanks, I see.

 

There are poor examples in the books; this would seem to be one of them. Although it would depend to on campaign AP limits which could force the first scenario at least in terms of limiting the STR purchase (wouldn't see how someone would spend so "little" on CON but want the derived stats to be high, anyway, so it's still a bad example, unless people customarily impose CON limits).

 

But you're right it's an easy mistake to make. In a high-powered campaign you'd certainly want to ensure the latter build. But on the other hand I can see how the form could be imposed if there are limits on basic chars, which could be reasonable even if cost-ineffective.

 

I'm not sure I see that as a bug or bad example with a published NPC.

 

As posted in build 1 above, the NPC can be stunned with a 71+ Stun attack and will only be doing 8d6 damage with her punch in HtH. Grabs will have a good chance of making her life tougher for a phase or two.

 

In build II, the NPC will only be stunned with a 121+ Stun attack, she'll be pumping out 20d6 per punch, and Grabs will be useless unless the grabber is a hell of a Martial Artists or Brick.

 

From a points POV, Build II is much better. From the POV of a GM looking for a foe for the PCs, Build I might be a much better choice. With published NPCs, point value and build efficiency aren't the best metrics for judging how well they'll fit into a campaign.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

I'm not sure I see that as a bug or bad example with a published NPC.

 

As posted in build 1 above, the NPC can be stunned with a 71+ Stun attack and will only be doing 8d6 damage with her punch in HtH. Grabs will have a good chance of making her life tougher for a phase or two.

 

In build II, the NPC will only be stunned with a 121+ Stun attack, she'll be pumping out 20d6 per punch, and Grabs will be useless unless the grabber is a hell of a Martial Artists or Brick.

 

From a points POV, Build II is much better. From the POV of a GM looking for a foe for the PCs, Build I might be a much better choice. With published NPCs, point value and build efficiency aren't the best metrics for judging how well they'll fit into a campaign.

I think examples that don't discuss the whys/wherefores and deliberate inefficiences are de facto poor. As I stated, there might be a good reason for this build - but for a newbie, which is who examples are for, this should be spelled out.

[OddHat]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

I think examples that don't discuss the whys/wherefores and deliberate inefficiences are de facto poor. As I stated' date=' there might be a good reason for this build - but for a newbie, which is who examples are for, this should be spelled out.[/quote']

 

Maybe. I guess I should have said that I don't think most published NPCs are intended as examples of how to build a character, and do work poorly for that purpose.

 

That's part of the reason why most of my posted NPCs have point limits and fairly "clean" builds. It allows me to point players to them as examples of how I think characters should be built for my own campaigns.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Maybe. I guess I should have said that I don't think most published NPCs are intended as examples of how to build a character, and do work poorly for that purpose.

 

That's part of the reason why most of my posted NPCs have point limits and fairly "clean" builds. It allows me to point players to them as examples of how I think characters should be built for my own campaigns.

Ah, I see. I just tend to think differently, I tend to think that systems are saying "here's how to build a character," at least in a points-based system like this but I can understand your point as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Ah' date=' I see. I just tend to think differently, I tend to think that systems are saying "here's how to build a character," at least in a points-based system like this but I can understand your point as well.[/quote']

 

The only HERO 5thER characters I think of that way are explicit sample player characters. Most NPCs just have the points to play their role in the story, with actual point totals far beyond their combat utility almost by default. Again, just imo.

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

The only HERO 5thER characters I think of that way are explicit sample player characters. Most NPCs just have the points to play their role in the story' date=' with actual point totals far beyond their combat utility almost by default. Again, just imo.[/quote']

Bear in mind my prejudice, I find it annoying that HERO tries to deny its point-driven build mentality, having dropped the very mechanical - and useful - advice from the earliest editions such as Goodman's School of Effectiveness and tidbits how most stats, if efficient, should end in 3 or 8, and so on (with the comments on why you might not play to that).

[OddHat]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Bear in mind my prejudice' date=' I find it annoying that HERO tries to deny its point-driven build mentality, having dropped the very mechanical - and useful - advice from the earliest editions such as Goodman's School of Effectiveness and tidbits how most stats, if efficient, should end in 3 or 8, and so on (with the comments on why you might not play to that).[/quote']

 

I actually dislike that change as well. It's a point based system; why force PCs to waste points?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Bear in mind my prejudice' date=' I find it annoying that HERO tries to deny its point-driven build mentality, having dropped the very mechanical - and useful - advice from the earliest editions such as Goodman's School of Effectiveness and tidbits how most stats, if efficient, should end in 3 or 8, and so on (with the comments on why you might not play to that).[/quote']Amen! There's nothing wrong with point efficiency as long as it doesn't trump concept; and I dislike the attitude that efficient builders are munchkins. An efficient build can of course also be munchkinism, but the terms are not synonymous. This is a point-based game system. I don't understand why the game designers want to pretend that's not the case.

 

I really wish 5ER or FREd would have included an updated version of Goodman's School of Effectiveness. I wonder if it could be legally copied and posted in the Free Stuff section?

[zornwil]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

That would be cool. Let's start a petition! (Just kidding - seriously we could post this question to the company forum, will do....)

[TaxiMan]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

Not trying to derail, but has anyone looked at the cost of typical (archtype / popular) published characters if they were bought without figured characteristics? I.e. how much does a mainstream brick cost if he has to pay for STUN, REC, etc.? How much does a mainstream Blaster / Mentalist / Speedster cost?

 

Once we knew that, perhaps we could adjust characteristic / power costs to get better balance? Maybe we could load a bunch of published characters into HD but make them pay for all the characteristics.

 

Just curious. Wondered if new insight into costing structures vs. archtypes would help.

[Niles]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

We don't see more 45 Dex Bricks because the GMs blanche when someone builds a non "archetype" character. All Bricks are slow. It's not just a good idea' date=' it's the law [/quote']

 

No, in the Comics almost all Bricks are Fast.

 

Lets look at some classic comic book Bricks

 

Captain Marvel: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air with the Speed of Hermes

Wonder Woman:Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air with the Speed of Hermes

Supeman: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air.

The Hulk: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air. his foes are often shown thinking " how can anything that big move so fast?" in their last moment of consiousness

 

Beginning to see a pattern?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

No' date=' in the Comics almost all Bricks are [b']Fast[/b].

 

Lets look at some classic comic book Bricks

 

Captain Marvel: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air with the Speed of Hermes

Wonder Woman:Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air with the Speed of Hermes

Supeman: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air.

The Hulk: Fast enough to pluck bullets out of the air. his foes are often shown thinking " how can anything that big move so fast?" in their last moment of consiousness

 

Beginning to see a pattern?

 

Yes - your choices are off. You've chosen classic "Fast Brick" archetypes, with the exception of the Hulk. Classic comic book bricks would also include the Thing, Sub-Mariner, Colossus, the Golem, the Glob, the Heap, the GA Blue Beetle, etc.

 

I think classic comic book bricks are traditionally slower than the other archetypes, unless they also posssess some form of super-speed power (Superman and Capt Marvel, for example, are "everypower" archetypes; SpiderMan and the Beast are Agile Bricks). Daredevil and Batman types can generally evade these Bricks easily.

 

However, they are still commonly faster than normal humans, or even competent agent-level humans. So the soldiers wonder "how can anything that big move that fast", and even supers don't expect them to be as fast as they are, but they aren't as fast as the other classic archetypes.

 

This also supports the historical Champions trope that even a "slow" Brick is above the DEX of a highly trained agent.

[Kenn]

Re: Economics 101: Character Building in a Point-Based System

 

While Hugh is correct that not all bricks are fast, I think Niles examples do go to prove that not all bricks are slow.