Killing Damage and Defenses

[rayoman]

I just asked this question to Steve on the rules question board but I figured I could post it here for others to put their 2 cents in too.

 

 

After reading the STOPPING KILLING STUN thread on the Champions board it has occurred to me that I may have been figuring the damage from Killing Attacks wrong in my game. Luckily, I was doing it for and against both the Heroes and Villains.

 

Scenario: Killing Machine hits Hero Man with a 4d6 Killing Attack (BFG). KM rolls 3, 4,3,6 for 16 BODY. Next, KM rolls a 4 on his Sun Multiplier and subtracting a 1 makes the SM = 3. HM will take 16*3 = 48 STUN.

 

Assume Hero Man has 20 in Resistant PD and a 25 total PD.

 

a. MY WAY: Hero Man stops the 16 BODY therefore HM takes no STUN.

 

b. After reading 5ER, again, the way I THINK it should be done: Hero Man has to absorb 16 Body and 48 STUN. HM's resistant defenses allow him to ignore the BODY. His 25 total PD reduces the STUN take from the attack to 23. HM loses 23 STUN. Luckily his CON is 25 so he is not stunned.

 

So is a or b correct? I have been playing it as a but I think that may be wrong after reading the rules again.

 

Thanks.

[massey]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

"B" is correct.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

Unfortuneately, B is correct. I think it works better if A is correct, but have not had the chance to test this.

[Harry Canyon]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

B is the Way*. :-D

 

* Although, you're certainly entitled to run your game however you like.

 

Derek

[Chimpira]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

B is the correct way. If you like your version more, then I would say to continue to do it.

[rayoman]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

I did not change it on purpose. I didn't even realize I was doing it until reading another thread here and then reading the rules again.

 

I will inform the group that I was doing it wrong then we will do it by the rulebook. After that we will discuss which way is more out style.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[Kirby]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

B!

 

But hey, I'm in a Fantasy HERO game where the GM runs it the "A" way, which I haven't complained about since meaning my fighting dwarf character has never taken Body. My thief partner on the other hand has gotten the blood and guts knocked out of her each time we've gone into combat.

[gojira]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

One thing you may wish to to do is to fix the stun multiplier at some value. Most experienced GMs seem to do this.

 

For example, if you fix the stun muliplyer at 2 for all killing attacks, then when Killing Machine rolls 16 killing damage, the stun is automatically 32.

 

This takes a lot of the randomness out of killing attacks. It really sucks when a player is zapped just because the stun multipler die comes up a 6. (Which would equal 80 stun in this example. Eek!)

 

Likewise players can short circuit an adventure quickly with a lucky high stun muliplier and the main villian is knocked out. Not always very fun that way. Setting the stun multiplier at a fixed value removes these issues.

 

The other option is to strictly control the use of killing attacks. You might outlaw them for players because they DO tend to kill people eventually, making them unsuitable for heroes to be using. A villian with even a small killing attack should be treated as a really evil person in a four color campaign, someone to be dealth with very carefully.

[pinecone]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

One thing you may wish to to do is to fix the stun multiplier at some value. Most experienced GMs seem to do this.

 

For example, if you fix the stun muliplyer at 2 for all killing attacks, then when Killing Machine rolls 16 killing damage, the stun is automatically 32.

 

This takes a lot of the randomness out of killing attacks. It really sucks when a player is zapped just because the stun multipler die comes up a 6. (Which would equal 80 stun in this example. Eek!)

 

Likewise players can short circuit an adventure quickly with a lucky high stun muliplier and the main villian is knocked out. Not always very fun that way. Setting the stun multiplier at a fixed value removes these issues.

 

The other option is to strictly control the use of killing attacks. You might outlaw them for players because they DO tend to kill people eventually, making them unsuitable for heroes to be using. A villian with even a small killing attack should be treated as a really evil person in a four color campaign, someone to be dealth with very carefully.

Sorry I just had to repy to this...I think its better form to speak for your self, instead of "most experianced GM..." etc... I've never had a problem with the stun multiple at all, but that doesn't mean someome else has not.

I'd recomend exactly what hes doing....trying it then deciding...

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

Hmmm... most of the games I run with the Hero System don't have killing attacks by anybody. Those few situations that did had guns in the hands of normals who were a) too slow to actually bring them into play against heroes and had OCV's too low to be a credible threat. (The logic was that the villains would get out of jail sooner for not employing killing attacks, so they wouldn't get lumped together with the nuts with guns...)

 

Matt "Circumnavigating-the-issue" Frisbee

[Chimpira]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

One thing you may wish to to do is to fix the stun multiplier at some value. Most experienced GMs seem to do this.

 

For example, if you fix the stun muliplyer at 2 for all killing attacks, then when Killing Machine rolls 16 killing damage, the stun is automatically 32.

 

This takes a lot of the randomness out of killing attacks. It really sucks when a player is zapped just because the stun multipler die comes up a 6. (Which would equal 80 stun in this example. Eek!)

 

Likewise players can short circuit an adventure quickly with a lucky high stun muliplier and the main villian is knocked out. Not always very fun that way. Setting the stun multiplier at a fixed value removes these issues.

 

The other option is to strictly control the use of killing attacks. You might outlaw them for players because they DO tend to kill people eventually, making them unsuitable for heroes to be using. A villian with even a small killing attack should be treated as a really evil person in a four color campaign, someone to be dealth with very carefully.

 

I use a set modifier as well, but the problem is that finding the right number for your game is tricky. Too high and you still have the problem. too low and you make killing attacks not worth the cost of buying as the supers with resistant defenses over about 24 (in some of my old games, back in the days of 250 points, everyone had defenses to that range. ) no longer have much too worry about from 60 active points of it. Heck even a happy medium is not so happy.

 

Of course it is a killing attack, which should be emphasized and not to be simply an amazing stunning attack.

 

I agree with Pinecone. Every GM must find what is most suitable for their game and go with that.

[Kirby]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

One thing you may wish to to do is to fix the stun multiplier at some value. Most experienced GMs seem to do this.

I agree with pinecone in that your qualifier statement should be speaking for yourself, not for others. Of the five HERO GMs I've been in games with, not one has given a fixed Stun multiplier, nor do I. I actually enjoy the variable Stun damage, just as I enjoy the variable Body/Stun of Energy Blasts, which is one of the reasons I don't use the "Standard Effect" offered up for Powers.

[gojira]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

I probably should have qualified that. I was refering to GMs here on these boards who seem experienced. I don't GM so I can't say myself.

 

Stylistically, I prefer games where PCs generally don't have killing attacks, and don't often have to face villians with large (greater than 2d6 or so) killing attacks.

[assault]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

Stylistically' date=' I prefer games where PCs generally don't have killing attacks, and don't often have to face villians with large (greater than 2d6 or so) killing attacks.[/quote']

 

I agree. Unfortunately HKAs (swords etc) can easily go to 3d6, so I feel kind of forced to accept that as the limit, although I'd rather go lower.

 

Anyway, the general feel of KAs are (usually) only for mooks (and real weapons) works quite well for me.

 

Tanks are still an issue, of course, but "flipping them onto their backs" takes them out well enough, and only a few supers should be able to stand up to their guns.

 

Once KAs and "real weapons" are adequately nerfed, character power becomes much less of an issue. A 350 point character can then behave like a "real superhero". That's good, because characters tend to become more complicated when they are built on more points. Lower points usually means easier to deal with, which makes the GM's life easier.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

I use the roll, or the multiplier form the hit locaton charts depending on the situation.

 

According to the rules, if you have ANY resistant defenses, then you can apply ALL your normal defenses tot he stun. This should also apply to damage reductuction (and in my games certainly does). So bricks can be truly hard to bring down if built well.

 

One good build is to take a decent base PD. To this, either add a resistant defense or make half of this resistant. then add normal damage reduction, with the limitation Stun only to it at 75%.

 

The end result is someone who has decent resistant defense, but when they get hurt, it hurts them. But the stun never overwhelms them. Example numbers for a typical 250 pt character might be this.

 

Base Pd is 15

Armor bought to 10 rPD

Damage Reduction 75% PD, stun only

 

So the first 25 pts of normal stun and normal body is stopped, pretty damn tough. And he feels only 25% of the stun that makes it through.

 

The first 15 body of killing damage is blocked, but he feels everything beyond that. This puts him right in range to stop 2 1/2d6 of killing, but major guns like 3d6ka will be able to hurt him.

 

But even with a killing attack, he stops the first 25 stun, and only feels 25% of the remaining stun. this is actually very cost effective for a physical combat character, and if you want it to be energy defenses also, you will see the major focus of the character become these defenses, which will prevent them form being too powerful overall in other aspects of the game.

[The Monster]

Re: Killing Damage and Defenses

 

Most of the Hero games I run are norm-type games, with guns and swords. Method B is absolutely vital in my opinion.

From stuff I've read and the testimony of the geeks who actually use the stuff, armor will prtoect you pretty well from most actual injury, but you can still get your bells loudly rung by a good blow. To me, that means you're avoiding BODY damage but still taking at least some STUN. Otherwise, armored knights become pretty much totally invulnerable to normal weapons. Done correctly in Hero, heavy armor is a major advantage, but you're not quite invulnerable - which feels right to me.

 

Of course, in my normal-hero games I always use hit locations, so die rolls for STUNx feel funny to me. It also adds combat options for creative players and skills characters.