The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Thia Halmades]

Good morning!

 

I figured this is a new topic, so I'd start a new thread. There are a number of things I want to accomplish in HERO, part of which involve recreating the divide between Wizards & Sorcerors. Now before the whole "Dangit, Thia, stop recreating d20 and use HERO!" rants begin, I want to make it clear I am using HERO, and have ever intention of using HERO. There are things that I actually liked in d20 and want to retain for style & feel purposes, not because I'm simply attempting to gratuitously rebuild the system.

 

Oh, and on the concept of Magic Missile: I'm going to go for a One Hex Accurate (DCV 3) build of the power, but I don't know how to divide the missle (or any multi-beam spell) across multiple targets. Suggestions? Do I add 'Rapid Fire' to the spell? The idea being that you can fire multiple missiles if you choose to improve the spell, but I don't know how to reflect that. So there's question one; not "How do I make a magic missile" but "How do I build a spell that gives the user multi-target capability?"

 

I have a few basic ideas for the system that I want to employ. I've leafed through part of the Grimoire and it mentions that according to the Turakian Age, casters purchase spells at 1/3rd of their Real Cost to give Wizards large spell books. I'm not sure if that would be "unbalancing" or not, but it would certainly make CP for spells go farther. I've also considered building in a Multipower framework called "Spell Book" and letting the PC fill it as they like, waiving the initial cost of spells - i.e., if you purchase 40pts of "Spell Book" you would be awarded 40pts of Spells to fill said spell book; after that, you can either puchase spells as slots, or expand the Multipower, your choice.

 

Second, Wizards need to mem spells. That's a straight up inarguable, although my local HERO guru argued with me, I'm pretty firm on the point. So I want Wizardry to work from an END reserve that only resets after 8 hours rest (simple enough). My mechanic for "memorizing" every morning is simply to have the Wizard pre-assign their END reserve. This is also an additional limit (maybe worth 1/4th) "Only usuable after being assigned to a slot."

 

Sorcery there are a few ways to go about; specifically, they retain the ability to cast spontaneously. I've considered allowing ECs for Sorcerors (which fits with the campaign theme) but the EC is prohibitively expensive. However, it fits the concept of "thematic magic" perfectly. Also, Sorcerors also get an END reserve, but they can Push their END. If their reserve is tapped, they can use personal END (at x2 the cost) and burn themselves out. This is an option Wizards don't get (because they aren't the "source" of magic, their training is the source of magic).

 

Faith based casting needs completely reworked, partially because it's very d20 driven now, and in HERO they're sacrificing a little bit of bang for flexibility. They'll get an END Reserve, they'll retain the ability to use END (x2 cost) and "dump a slot" - i.e., free up pre-assigned END - to cast a Heal spell and, if I can swing it, to cast a Domain spell as well.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? I have a gabillion other things floating around (how to work Meta-Magic feats purchased outside of a framework, for example) and what have you, but I'll get into those questions later on. Although, for all the math junkies, I'll let you chew on this one:

 

My Wizard has purchased Fireball, a 6d6 RKA with AOE 3". Fwackoom. He wants to alter the Range, but according to the system, the Spell itself is generally unalterable (see my question on Magic Missle and why it's a hassle). I want the caster to be able to purchase a Range Booster outside of the framework. We'll say that it always doubles the Range of a given spell it's applied too; whether AOE, Line, Cone, what have you. Increases range by one step. How would you work that in?

 

That should give everyone some nice food for thought this morning.

 

Good morning!

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I figured this is a new topic' date=' so I'd start a new thread. There are a number of things I want to accomplish in HERO, part of which involve recreating the divide between Wizards & Sorcerors. Now before the whole "Dangit, Thia, stop recreating [i']d20[/i] and use HERO!" rants begin, I want to make it clear I am using HERO, and have ever intention of using HERO. There are things that I actually liked in d20 and want to retain for style & feel purposes, not because I'm simply attempting to gratuitously rebuild the system.

 

Well, one thing you can try to show this would be to require Wizard spells to have a Requires Skill Roll Limitation in addition to all others, but Sorcerers don't have this Limitation. It makes their spells a little more expensive. You could also employ different magic systems for each caster type. Maybe Wizards use individual spells bought by a spell skill system (see Fantasy Hero pg 261), and Sorcerers use something like the Chaos Blades idea (Fantasy Hero pg 262). There is no requirement that every type of caster use the exact same system, unless you prefer uniformity.

 

Oh' date=' and on the concept of Magic Missile: I'm going to go for a One Hex Accurate (DCV 3) build of the power, but I don't know how to divide the missle (or any multi-beam spell) across multiple targets. Suggestions? Do I add 'Rapid Fire' to the spell? The idea being that you can fire multiple missiles if you choose to improve the spell, but I don't know how to reflect that. So there's question one; not "How do I make a magic missile" but "How do I build a spell that gives the user multi-target capability?"[/quote']

 

This would be done by using Autofire, but the spell is going to start getting expensive.

 

I have a few basic ideas for the system that I want to employ. I've leafed through part of the Grimoire and it mentions that according to the Turakian Age' date=' casters purchase spells at 1/3rd of their Real Cost to give Wizards large spell books. I'm not sure if that would be "unbalancing" or not, but it would certainly make CP for spells go farther. I've also considered building in a Multipower framework called "Spell Book" and letting the PC fill it as they like, waiving the initial cost of spells - i.e., if you purchase 40pts of "Spell Book" you would be awarded 40pts of Spells to fill said spell book; after that, you can either puchase spells as slots, or expand the Multipower, your choice.[/quote']

 

The cost divider option is done since Multipowers are not being used. It does have the advantage that spellcasters can dabble in magic with a spell or two, or spend a lot of points. If you want to go for something like a spellbook, take a look at The Gift magic system (Fantasy Hero pg 265).

 

Second' date=' Wizards need to mem spells. That's a straight up inarguable, although my local HERO guru argued with me, I'm pretty firm on the point. So I want Wizardry to work from an END reserve that only resets after 8 hours rest (simple enough). My mechanic for "memorizing" every morning is simply to have the Wizard pre-assign their END reserve. This is also an additional limit (maybe worth 1/4th) "Only usuable after being assigned to a slot."[/quote']

 

*Shrug* I think you're sacrificing the flexibility Hero gives you to satisfy a metagaming need here. It's your game, but I always hated the tactical planning that D&D required of wizards. "Let's see, I think I'll need to cast Magic Missile three times today, and Detect Magic once." This isn't magic to me, since it's so rigid in its structure. You can separate wizards and sorcerers by other means. An END Reserve is a good way to go to show that wizards and Sorcerers get their power from an external source they tap into and channel.

 

Sorcery there are a few ways to go about; specifically' date=' they retain the ability to cast spontaneously. I've considered allowing ECs for Sorcerors (which fits with the campaign theme) but the EC is prohibitively expensive. However, it fits the concept of "thematic magic" perfectly. Also, Sorcerors also get an END reserve, but they can Push their END. If their reserve is tapped, they can use personal END (at x2 the cost) and burn themselves out. This is an option Wizards don't get (because they aren't the "source" of magic, their training is the source of magic).[/quote']

 

Take a look at the Eldritch Lore system (Fantasy Hero pg 264) to see how an END Rerserve can be used.

 

Faith based casting needs completely reworked' date=' partially because it's very d20 driven now, and in HERO they're sacrificing a little bit of bang for flexibility. They'll get an END Reserve, they'll retain the ability to use END (x2 cost) and "dump a slot" - [i']i.e.[/i], free up pre-assigned END - to cast a Heal spell and, if I can swing it, to cast a Domain spell as well.

 

You can do arcane magic and faith-based magic by as simple a change as the name of the skill roll required: "Faith" instead of magic. I really think you're trying to drag too many of D&D's metagaming concepts into Hero, but it's your campaign. It can really be satisifying to strike out and craft your own magic system for your world from the ground up.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Which I've considered doing, and Chris (the HERO Guru) agrees with you on the point of not forcing Wizards to mem spells, but to me that's their whole schtick; they get more spells, but have some limits. Sorcerors, conversely, I agree with you; I can ditch the RSR (which makes spells more expensive) but they cast any spell they know out of their END reserve without any consideration for training; it's just what they do. It's also why I liked the idea of an EC for them, and why I want to let Sorcerors Push their END as necessary.

 

And I may be thick headed (happens) but keeping Wizards controlled (even arbitrarily) is a mechanic that I'm just more comfortable with. However, they have the option, at any time, of sitting down, dumping the END they used earlier during the mem period, and memorizing a new spell. The limit isn't there to keep them from doing different things; they can even leave their END untapped.

 

In fact, I may even allow them to cast spells directly from their book, although that would change things slightly (it becomes a Full Phase, but confers no bonuses to the END requirement). I think I might like that, actually.

 

I can certainly envision Magic Missile being a 1d6 EB with autofire at first level that targets hexes; that actually makes total sense to me. And, at last, it would be appropriately expensive. This would also give the PC the option of improving the spell without crafting a new one. While 1d6 EB is pretty much meaningless, firing it five times would be the counter balance, if you can hit every time.

 

Also, using the END reserve to force Wizards to mem gives them good reason to buy up the END reserve early on, and that's fairly cheap (1:10).

 

A PC would purchase "Spell Craft" as a skill, 9 + INT/5 for Wizards (EGO for Priests). If they have a nice straightforward INT of 20, that gives them a base score of 13. They roll under that, and add applicable modifiers based on the Active Point Cost of the spell, correct? So in order to cast, RSR says:

 

13 -3 (for a 30 pt. APC) means they need to roll 10 or less, or the spell fails, correct?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Have you checked out the Wizardry and Sorcery and other "Vancian" style Magic Systems on my site?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Vancian.shtml

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

My advice is save yourself and your players a whole lotta trouble and just use an END reserve that recharges at like 1/hour for Wizards and let them cast whatever they want if they have the END. They still end up being limited in their casting abilities (one or two big battles and they'll be out of END right quick!), but don't have the headaches of pre-assigning all their spells. If you want casting from books to be different than casting from memory just have the skills rolls be hard (-1 per 5 active points) and let the books give a bonus to counterbalance this.

 

As for Sorcerors vs Wizards, use the above END reserve for both, but as Steve said just don't require the RSR limitation for Sorcerors.

 

 

Rob

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I read through it, but I don't grasp how you're applying charges to the spell system. I grep the following:

 

- You're using a VPP, which is confusing (to me) because I thought the purpose of a VPP was to act as a 'naked pool' from which a PC can simply cough up an effect, so it sounds more like you're describing a Multipower than a VPP (again, which is my ignorance, so an in-depth explanation would be helpful).

 

- You're also using Charges, and I can grasp the simple concept "This spell is built on model X, which removes the END cost and replaces it with a single Charge." So building every spell under a Charge model, can I also assume that the VPP/Limit (x3, per your site) is inherent to that model? i.e., "Your total VPP is 80, so you can mem 240 Real Points worth of spells, and each spell consumes it's own individual charge." Did I read that correctly?

 

If I did, then I really need to know how the VPP works in terms of cost, and how costs are figured for casters as a whole, because it sounds prohibitively expensive.

 

Medic!

[ghost-angel]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

For Wizards that memorize spells you want to use Killer Shrike's Prepared Casting Vancian information.

 

Essentially it's a VPP that can only have powers changed out once a day, and not at whim.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I read through it, but I don't grasp how you're applying charges to the spell system. I grep the following:

 

- You're using a VPP, which is confusing (to me) because I thought the purpose of a VPP was to act as a 'naked pool' from which a PC can simply cough up an effect, so it sounds more like you're describing a Multipower than a VPP (again, which is my ignorance, so an in-depth explanation would be helpful).

 

- You're also using Charges, and I can grasp the simple concept "This spell is built on model X, which removes the END cost and replaces it with a single Charge." So building every spell under a Charge model, can I also assume that the VPP/Limit (x3, per your site) is inherent to that model? i.e., "Your total VPP is 80, so you can mem 240 Real Points worth of spells, and each spell consumes it's own individual charge." Did I read that correctly?

 

If I did, then I really need to know how the VPP works in terms of cost, and how costs are figured for casters as a whole, because it sounds prohibitively expensive.

 

Medic!

Here's what most people miss on the VPPs, at the default settnig it takes a suitable amount of time to change out the slots...

 

If you place a Limitation "May only change out powers once a day" then at the start of each day a Player chooses a number of Powers/Spells whose real cost is equal to the Points of the Pool:

 

Given a 60 Point Pool and a suite of Powers, they choose a grouping whose total Real Cost is equal to or less than 60 Points. Those are then their "memorized" spells for that day.

 

A Charges Limitation places a limited number of uses per spell per day, instead of a default of an unlimited number of uses of any memorized spells.

 

that help?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Off to work, so I dont have time to respond in depth, but essentially your idea of what VPPs are and can be is flawed.

 

They are essentially a Pool of points that can be dynamically switched out, but how often, how easily, and under what circumstances they can be switched out varies from VPP to VPP, and is controlled by the modifiers taken on the control cost.

 

 

Ill revisit this when I have time later today.

[i3ullseye]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I would perhaps look at moving away from End reserves for Wizards. It might simulate things better if it were a multipower pool, with charges on it. The charges recover after a night of sleep. And you can add the extra limitation that the charges have to be assigned to slots during the memorization period.

 

Then for sorcerors you use the end reserve, with no normal recovery option. They have to sleep for their end reserve to recover. Now you have pre-assigned slots for Wizards, and a finite number per day. They will generally be able to do a lot more than the Sorcerors, as buying a single slot in the multipower lets it share form the charges on the pool itself. While the sorcerors will pey a bit mroe for their slots since they draw form an end reserve and wont have the same skill roll or pre-study requirements to drop their costs.

 

As for the range adder......

 

You woudl buy that as a naked power advantage. When you purchase this advantage, you will have to select up front how many active points this power/advantage will effect, anything extra is lost. Now for a base +1/4 the max range of a power is multiplied by 5. I woudl normally couple this with No Range Modifier for +1/2 to ffset this greater range, and more closely mimic the D&D spell structure as spells often don;t have range penalties.

 

These should normally stay outside power frameworks, but can be built much like a feat/talent for that caster. They won't be cheap, and you need to consider how often it can be used per day. Normally, making it costs endurance at a higher rate, and requiring a decent skill rooll, should keep it in line. Also it shoudl delay the spell a bit to cast it differently.

 

Enhance Mystical Range

Enahnced Range (+1/4), No Range Penalty (+1/2)

Extra Time (-1/4), Requires Magic Skill Roll [-1/10 active points](-1/2)

Only works on spells cast (-1/4),X2 Endurance (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)

Real Cost: 15 Active Effect :30 Endurance: 6

 

Something like that would increase the range of any spell with an active point total of us to 30, and remove the range penalty. You need to make extra gestrures, and it takes a bit of time to change the spell. Casting this way requires a skill roll of -1 per 10 active points (the enhancement itself is a base -3 keep in mind) and will cost an extra 6 endurance to cast this way, even if the base spell normally costs no endurance.

 

If the spell is less than 30 active points, it's range is multiplid by 5. If the spell is mroe than 30 active, you might just default to the 30 base and call the range 750". The extra will just be lost, and shouldn't matter really. For a spell to hit this range normally it would need 150 active points.

 

Just an idea.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

And I may be thick headed (happens) but keeping Wizards controlled (even arbitrarily) is a mechanic that I'm just more comfortable with. However' date=' they have the option, at any time, of sitting down, dumping the END they used earlier during the mem period, and memorizing a new spell. The limit isn't there to keep them from doing different things; they can even leave their END untapped.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not sure why you feel the need to nerf Wizards in this particular way, but as long as they are getting some kind of Limitation to their spells and/or END Reserve from it, I guess it works out in the end. With RSR, spells have a much greater chance of fizzling and doing nothing more than expending END from the reserve to no effect. I find that to be sufficient to limit Wizards. For myself, I'd just play a fighter or rogue instead and not have to deal with it.

 

Meta-magic feats can be done by means of buying 'naked' Advantages outside the method you choose to do for spells. Things like enhancing range or reducing the END cost are easily done that way. You can also buy off the need for certain Limitations like Gestures or Incantations this way, by saying something like "No Need For Gestures For Up To 60 Active Points Of Magic Spell" which would cost 12 points (assuming the spell had no other Limitations). You can then give this ability it's own Limitations, which allows you to tweak magic spells and make Wizards and Sorcerers feel more magical and flexible.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I read through it, but I don't grasp how you're applying charges to the spell system. I grep the following:

 

- You're using a VPP, which is confusing (to me) because I thought the purpose of a VPP was to act as a 'naked pool' from which a PC can simply cough up an effect, so it sounds more like you're describing a Multipower than a VPP (again, which is my ignorance, so an in-depth explanation would be helpful).

 

Yes, but.... the mechanics of a D&D spell written up in Hero can vary depending on how the spell is memorized/prepared, if for no other reason than the number of D&D spell slots that can be devoted to one spell. (You could prep/mem Magic Missile five times, for instance.)

 

- You're also using Charges, and I can grasp the simple concept "This spell is built on model X, which removes the END cost and replaces it with a single Charge." So building every spell under a Charge model, can I also assume that the VPP/Limit (x3, per your site) is inherent to that model? i.e., "Your total VPP is 80, so you can mem 240 Real Points worth of spells, and each spell consumes it's own individual charge." Did I read that correctly?

 

No. Assuming a 90 point VPP, each spell could be up to 90 Active Points. (Making it 90 to make the math work out easier.) You could have a total of 90 Real Points worth of spells in the pool. 1 Charge is a -2 Limitation, so if that was the only Limitation on a 90 Active Point spell, it would take up 30 Real Points in your pool. You've got other Limitations on spells; most spells have Gestures, Incantations, and Focus (verbal, somatic, and material components in AD&D1 parlance).

 

If I did, then I really need to know how the VPP works in terms of cost, and how costs are figured for casters as a whole, because it sounds prohibitively expensive.

 

To buy the VPP, you pay a number of points equal to the Active Points of the pool; this is the Pool Cost. You then pay a Control Cost equal to half the Pool Cost. When applying Advantages and Limitations to the pool, you always apply them to the Control Cost.

 

As an example:

 

The 90 point VPP I mentioned would have a base Control Cost of 45 points. It would have the following Modifiers: No Skill Roll To Change Points (+1), Points Assigned Once Per Day (-1/2), All Spells Must Be Built With Charges (-1/2), Spells Require Bulky Spell Book To Prepare (-1/2), All Spells Require Some Combination Of Gestures, Incantations, And Focus (-1/2). The Control Cost would be as follows:

 

45 * (1 + 1) = 45 * 2 = 90 / (1 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2) = 90 / 3 = 30.

 

The total cost would be 120 points (90 for the pool and 30 for the Control Cost).

 

(I may not have the Limitation values right, but let's use those for the sake of discussion.)

 

Does that make sense, or have I muddied the waters more?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I'm also considering dumping RSR and going without it, but haven't made that determination yet. I like the idea of magic being unreliable; it appeals to me, although I see the point of what you're saying, I am in fact trying to branch out and do something different with the magic system. That's where the concept for the END reserve came from; a set pool on which to draw.

 

I do understand (better, with some help, thanks to both Killer Shrike and ghost-angel for the enhanced definition) the VPP concept, but need to reread my textbook a bit. I spent most of the holiday reading it & fantasy HERO, and I can honestly say I haven't done that much reading at a clip since high school. It was a lot of information to absorb, but that's why I'm here talkin' to y'all. ;-)

 

I grep that point costs are an important point, and if I were to assign an END reserve as part of the VPP, the mechanics of doing it would possibly make it redundant comared to KS's simpler structure of VPP x3. So how do you keep Sorceror's in check in comparison? The concept of 'Spontaneous Caster' works very easily in HERO, and I have considered simply making Sorcery a Multipower that costs END to use.

 

Faith I can work similarly to Wizardry, that's not a big deal, and whether someone takes Turn Undead is on them. I'm just going to give everyone Head Explody and see what happens (kidding, kidding). There's a lot of food for thought here, but I also noticed a lot of outright dismissal; is there a specific reason? If I'm going around my ankles to get to my ears that's one thing, but some full on critique in terms of mechanics would also help tremendously.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I read through it, but I don't grasp how you're applying charges to the spell system. I grep the following:

 

 

- You're also using Charges, and I can grasp the simple concept "This spell is built on model X, which removes the END cost and replaces it with a single Charge." So building every spell under a Charge model, can I also assume that the VPP/Limit (x3, per your site) is inherent to that model? i.e., "Your total VPP is 80, so you can mem 240 Real Points worth of spells, and each spell consumes it's own individual charge." Did I read that correctly?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/wizardry.shtml#CASTED%20SPELLS%20AND%20VPP%20REAL%20COST%20LIMITS

 

If I did, then I really need to know how the VPP works in terms of cost, and how costs are figured for casters as a whole, because it sounds prohibitively expensive.

 

Medic!

 

"Prohibitively" expensive is a bit strong. It is expensive, but it is one of the few Magic System models that gets better with time. When looking at the cost of something you have to consider the "Total Cost of Ownership", as well as "Return on Investment over Time".

 

Since VPP's are on a square model normally (and the x3 RC allowance in Wizardry expands that further into a rectangular model), it has a high cost of entry but the more points a character puts into it the more powerful it gets, at a steadily efficient rate. Both the X and the Y increase together, essentially.

 

A starting Wizard, or a Wizard played in a lower pointed game, starts off with a small Pool allowing a few weak Spells. However, each extra 15 Pool purchased ramps both the raw Power of their Spells, and the number of Spells that they can cast per day. Plus, they are already past the main impact of the associated School Skills the Magic System requires for the LEARNING (not the casting) of Spells.

 

 

Compared against the layered Multipowers of the Spontaneous / Sorcery model the Spontaneous caster starts off more capable than the Prepared caster -- it has a lower cost of entry. However, each "Spell Levels" worth of Magic costs more than the one before it for a Spontaneous caster making it a process of diminishing returns. By contrast the Prepared casters' "9th Spell Level" costs the same as their "1st Spell Level" -- 17.5 points to be exact. Further the Spontaneous caster has to pay character points for each Spell since they are MP slots. The Prepared caster never has to pay anything for any of their Known Spells whether they know one spell or a hundred.

 

What this works out to is that somewhere between 60 and 90 Active Points (3rd to 5th level Spells), depending on the exact build of a particular Spontaneous caster, the prepared model becomes more point efficient, and further the disparity increases with each passing "Spell Level".

 

The Gestalt model splits the difference. It has rising returns like Prepared casting, but since it is more of a partially-Cosmic VPP and doesnt benefit from the x3 RC bennie of Prepared, it costs more per Spell Level and thus from a pure points available perspective lags behind the raw power of the Prepared model.

 

If imagined on a bar graph, in terms of AP / points spent on the "X" axis in increments of 15 Active Point in Spells / points spent to acheive it, and efficiency on the "Y" axis, and comparing Prepared, Spontaneous, and Gestalt:

 

* the Spontaneous model starts out highest on the Y axis, Prepared lowest, and Gestalt pretty much splits the difference in the middle

 

* across the X axis Spontaneous immediately starts a slow curve down, while Prepared maintains a steady and linear climb up. Gestalt is also on a linear climb, but at a less sharp incline than Prepared.

 

* the 3 lines roughly juxtapose around 75 AP Spells on the X axis.

 

* at the end of the graph, at 150 Active points, Prepared is the highest on the Y efficiency axis, Spontaneous is the lowest, and Gestalt once again roughly splits the difference in the middle.

 

 

 

 

*******************************************************

 

Here is a sample Character for Wizardry; his full Spell List is listed under "Equipment" for convenience, and is VPP has a single days selection of Spells:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Yortheon%20Malafrid.HTML

 

 

 

Here is another sample Character, including one days load out of Spells:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/fantasy/Sir%20Jasper%20Maskelyne.HTML

 

and the characters FULL spell list:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/fantasy/Sir%20Jasper%20Maskelyne%20Spell%20List.HTML

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Good afternoon, and thanks for the starting input. The piece to the puzzle you're missing is here, I'm commenting specifically on Killer Shrike's build of Vancian magic, so in that sense, yes, I'm still confused on the idea of VPP.

 

So we'll do this. I'm going to "repeat" what you've said in my own language, and if I still don't get it, we'll play again. Each time hoping to refine it until the wheels all click into place. What you're saying is this:

 

The VPP is set, for the sake of round numbers, at 100 points. Each power within said VPP maxes out at 100 points; that's the most a single power can have at any given time. My understanding of a Multipower is such that so long as it consumes a Flexible slot, or an Ultra slot with less than the max points available in the Multipower, you can use multiple abilities so long as:

 

a) You have the points available to distribute (Flight, EB, Force Field)

You can pay the END for each ability, whether that round or as continuing cost.

 

What you're saying is that in a VPP, you can't have more Real Points than you have points in the VPP - whether it's broken down from Charges (1), Gestures, Incantations, OAF, etc. What Killer Shrike seems to be suggestion, and the reason my post seems so convoluted, is:

 

- Each spell is built with a Charge, and you can mem, or prep, that spell (as it seems to me) individually as many times as you like, up to 3x the total VPP. Thus recreating a prep-spell system within HERO, and the VPP, instead of reassigning on the fly (as a Sorceror does, or uses a Multipower to do) can only be restructured after 8 hours of rest.

 

- What I think you're saying about VPPs is this: the total amount of points you can have in the VPP is the summed Real Cost of all powers (say, spells) within the frame work. What I need is the ability to learn multiple spells, which could easily ignore the initial limit, without forcing the player to expand the VPP, except for purposes of raising the limit of the power of the spells known.

 

- Hence, my initial stab at this was to have players purchase spells individually, at 1/3rd the cost (per Grimoire) and have an END reserve which represented their total power pool. They can then choose to either pump the END reserve (thus gaining the ability to cast more often) or purchase new spells (gaining in flexibility).

 

- RSR is a concept I like, but may not work for this campaign. Magic is reliable, but I still it to be more limited. Forcing an RSR, then a skill roll, may be great for Sorcerors (as they're drawing on a skill, effectively) but not so much for Wizards (ironically, the inverse reasoning every one else is using, but hey, I'm different). There are multiple ways to go about doing this, so I'm still mucking about with options.

 

I can say, though, that I've certainly started a vast number of subset discussions while searching for a solution, and this has been extremely enlightening thus far.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Good afternoon' date=' and thanks for the starting input. The piece to the puzzle you're missing is here, I'm commenting specifically on Killer Shrike's build of Vancian magic, so in that sense, yes, I'm still confused on the idea of VPP.

 

Right, I caught that after I posted. Mea culpa.

 

So we'll do this. I'm going to "repeat" what you've said in my own language, and if I still don't get it, we'll play again. Each time hoping to refine it until the wheels all click into place. What you're saying is this:

 

The VPP is set, for the sake of round numbers, at 100 points. Each power within said VPP maxes out at 100 points; that's the most a single power can have at any given time.

 

The most a single power can have is 100 Active Points, but yeah, that's pretty much a correct restatement. (You might want to get used to thinking of the distinction between Active Cost and Real Cost.)

 

My understanding of a Multipower is such that so long as it consumes a Flexible slot, or an Ultra slot with less than the max points available in the Multipower, you can use multiple abilities so long as:

 

a) You have the points available to distribute (Flight, EB, Force Field)

You can pay the END for each ability, whether that round or as continuing cost.

 

Correct, if having nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

What you're saying is that in a VPP, you can't have more Real Points than you have points in the VPP - whether it's broken down from Charges (1), Gestures, Incantations, OAF, etc.

 

Correct.

 

What Killer Shrike seems to be suggestion, and the reason my post seems so convoluted, is:

 

- Each spell is built with a Charge, and you can mem, or prep, that spell (as it seems to me) individually as many times as you like, up to 3x the total VPP. Thus recreating a prep-spell system within HERO, and the VPP, instead of reassigning on the fly (as a Sorceror does, or uses a Multipower to do) can only be restructured after 8 hours of rest.

 

Yes, that's what KS is suggesting (and the part I missed before -- his system allows Real Points up to 3 times the VPP). Whether you'd want to build multiple memorizations of a spell as one spell with, say, 3 charges, or three spells with 1 charge each, would be your call. (I'm not sure I agree with his Limitation value, but that's neither here nor there. The concept is sound.)

 

- What I think you're saying about VPPs is this: the total amount of points you can have in the VPP is the summed Real Cost of all powers (say, spells) within the frame work.

 

Correct.

 

What I need is the ability to learn multiple spells, which could easily ignore the initial limit, without forcing the player to expand the VPP, except for purposes of raising the limit of the power of the spells known.

 

Note that Killer Shrike uses a fairly hard and fast correlation between spell level and points in the pool, so you're not looking at expanding the pool except over time (i.e. at spellcaster "level" increases).

 

If you want to (very roughly) equate it: the Active Points would be the D&D spell level, and the Real Points would be the total number of spells you can cast.

 

- Hence, my initial stab at this was to have players purchase spells individually, at 1/3rd the cost (per Grimoire) and have an END reserve which represented their total power pool. They can then choose to either pump the END reserve (thus gaining the ability to cast more often) or purchase new spells (gaining in flexibility).

 

END is more frequently used to represent a common pool of energy you're using on the fly to fuel a Power, not so much an allocation of slots you'd set up once per day.

 

Maybe I can boil it down a little more: to emulate a D&D wizard's allocation of spell slots for the day would be allocating your points in a pool rather than recovering END in an END Reserve. For a sorceror you'd probably want to use an END reserve, though.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think you are over thinking this.

 

 

This is a practice Ive found useful when making the various Magic Systems on my site.

 

List what you want the Magic System to do, describe how it should "feel", and determine how powerful it should be.

 

Make a Magic System that covers all of that.

 

 

Seriously, it helps to have a goal/spec to develop against instead of just stumbling around and haphazardly resolving things as they come up with spot solutions, kludges, and handwaving.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

There's a lot of food for thought here' date=' but I also noticed a lot of outright dismissal; is there a specific reason? If I'm going around my ankles to get to my ears that's one thing, but some full on critique in terms of mechanics would also help tremendously.[/quote']

 

First: I apologize if any of this comes off as patronizing. I honestly don't intend that, but...well... Hero is a complex system, and Variable Power Pool is a complex part of it. Not to mention that the big freaking book you're looking at gives calculus textbooks nightmares.

 

The reason is probably twofold: you're trying to use Hero mechanics to replicate another system's mechanics (a dicey proposition at best) and that you're jumping into the deep end of the pool where VPP sits, which is itself one of the more complex mechanics in Hero, both to get a handle on in character creation and to GM (even for people who've been around the system for a long time). Killer Shrike has done a bangup job in making it easier to handle, but you're seeing a lot of the complexity he's tried to filter out with his system; I think it's intended more for an experienced Hero GM trying to bring give new players a handle on the system.

 

Note also that we see a lot of newbies coming to Hero from d20, and one of the first things they try to do is to replicate spell levels. It happens almost like clockwork.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think you are over thinking this.

 

 

This is a practice Ive found useful when making the various Magic Systems on my site.

 

List what you want the Magic System to do, describe how it should "feel", and determine how powerful it should be.

 

Make a Magic System that covers all of that.

 

 

Seriously, it helps to have a goal/spec to develop against instead of just stumbling around and haphazardly resolving things as they come up with spot solutions, kludges, and handwaving.

 

I agree with KS on this. Forget about the rules for a few minutes and figure out what feel you are going for. Then once you have that mental framework in mind, take a look at the Hero System main book (with Fantasy Hero adding more options to your tookit) and see how you can use them to make magic work as you want it to work.

 

I would suggest posting that list to this thread or making a new thread for it, maybe broken down by spellcaster types, and then ask for commentary on how to accomplish it. Don't do it with an eye on rules, just go for a general description of effect. Then it's just a matter of reasoning backwards from effect to get a system that works within Hero.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The reason is probably twofold: you're trying to use Hero mechanics to replicate another system's mechanics (a dicey proposition at best) and that you're jumping into the deep end of the pool where VPP sits' date=' which is itself one of the more complex mechanics in Hero, both to get a handle on in character creation and to GM (even for people who've been around the system for a long time). Killer Shrike has done a bangup job in making it easier to handle, but you're seeing a lot of the complexity he's tried to filter out with his system; I think it's intended more for an experienced Hero GM trying to bring give new players a handle on the system.[/quote']

 

Chris makes good points here. The rules are there to give you and your players a common framework to run a campaign, but it's a toolkit. KS has constructed a system that works for him and his campaigns. I suggest using it as a model, if you decide to go the VPP route. But there are a myriad of options available to you. Fantasy Hero gives some others, and you can borrow one of them straight up, or play mix and match. It's your campaign, and magic works the way you want it to work. Don't feel you need to import D&D in any way, but use what you liked from it.

 

Some of us have been playing this system a long time, but don't take any of our words for the One True Way. Our suggestions are based on what we've seen and tried in our own campaigns. Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV).

 

Your campaign is yours, and we're here to help you make it a success.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

As a side note, the reason why I polarize on 1 Casting per time a Spell is slotted into the VPP is because the Spells should never need to be recalculated; the version listed on a characters Known Spell List is a static, unmodifiable snapshot of what that Spell is.

 

It would be cheaper to allow the # of Charges to be upscaled if a player wanted to memorize the same Spell multiple times in their VPP, but that is not how the Magic System works. Instead they would slot the Spell mechanic several times and pay the full Real Cost for each of them.

 

This is done to better model the 1 charge fire & forget vancian style of Magic, where each Spell is a seperate instance or slot that is disposed when used, not a persistent reusable scalable entity.

 

 

If you want to think of it in a different way, the Spells on a Prepared Caster's Known Spell List are classes, and the Spells taken in the VPP are instantiated Objects created from those classes. Even if two Objects are instances of the same class, they are still two seperate Objects, not one wrapper Object with a collection of two Objects.

 

 

The x3 RC available to a Wizard in part compenstates for this.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Actually, that's what I did, which is how I wound up with my initial solution. Hence the grand irony of the thing; I did think about what I wanted to do, and reasoned backwards based on my current understanding (albeit new) of the rules. The only thing I really wanted to "keep" from d20 were Metamagic (which is partially covered in Fantasy Hero) and the idea of designated spells and slots per day.

 

Part of the math I dismissed because it was already obvious to me; Gestures, Incantations, and OAFs are already built in, and the Grimoire gives tons of great examples. Druidry, Wizardy, etc. What makes this initial conversion difficult is because there is a specific feel I want to retain. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, in all honesty, I'm looking for a way to represent what I want to do and build a system that does that, exactly. Which is why I used END Reserve to represent that. Spells use END, END that shouldn't be coming from the Wizard themselves.

 

Of course I'm lost on VPPs, I'm new. That's to be expected, but as I noted before, I'm only going to learn by trying and discussing it. So to put everyone at ease (or at least Chris Goodwin) I don't take it as patronizing, any more than someone coming in blind to d20 and saying "How does this work?" should take my comments as patronizing; they don't know, I know. I'm here lookin' for help, and I'm appreciative of all that help, and aware that critiques suck, but are necessary. Now that I've said that.

 

Here's what I want my magic systems to do on a universal boundary.

 

- Spells should be structured individually. Some spells could get better with time, and that would be a perfectly reasonable expenditure of points. It doesn't happen in d20, but I'm not trying to do d20, I'm working within HERO. If a spell starts off as a 1d6 EB with Autofire and targets a Hex, and the player wants to:

 

a) Change the damage

Change the range

c) Mod the autofire

 

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do that. It's anathema to my primary, AD&D based way of thinking, but I'm trying to actively think in terms of HERO, which suggests that points be points, and how they're spent is on the player. So I want to leave that unlocked. A spell's starting structure doesn't have to be its final structure. This is important, and one of the 'new' paths of thinking I'm adopting.

 

- All spells should, initially, require Incant, Gestures, and an OAF (even if it's something simple, like a lump of coal). HERO already builds in better point costs based on difficulty of the OAF, which is perfect. I'm with that.

 

- I like RSR, but I want magic to be somewhat reliable, so while HERO generally suggests using it, I was going to leave it open as an option. I was also considering having it for all spells "5th Level" and higher (on the surface, anything with an Active Cost of >50). I'm still considering this, but it makes sense. Higher level magic is just harder to use.

 

- Subset to RSR; I also considered using RSR, but only applying it to spells that are twice the PCs current applicable skill level. If you have a skill of 8, you don't have to roll for anything with an Active Cost of 40 or less, but this is more complicated than I want to be. I'm listing it here as an example of things I've considered, and unless I did something really clever, will likely discard rather than keep.

 

- I like the idea of Metamagic feats (I thought it was one of the more clever things that they've done) although some will never apply. I want the option open to the PCs. While the cost would be immediately higher, it allows them to retain their spell at its original build if they so desire. However, if they want to make a "permanent" silent spell, that's easy enough. Spend the points, poof.

 

- Faith Based casters (specifically Clerics) should be able to dump out a prepared spell and sub in a Healing spell. Again, I want to keep it because it makes sense to me, rather than any sort of association with d20. I may also allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells as well.

 

- I want a limit on how often Wizards can cast, and a much higher limit for Sorcerors. I'd like Priests to be somewhere in between. I've also considered using ECs for Sorcerors, but admittedly don't know enough about how they work yet.

 

- I do want people to research and design new spells.

 

- I do need a better understanding of the three framework designs; what are the key differences between a VPP & a Multipower? I'll have reread the text by tomorrow morning, but basic guidelines will be good.

 

So there's some basics. Thoughts?

[Nightshade]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think that you are doing just fine. If you like D&D wizards and sorcerers, then use them!

 

Here's how I'd do it:

 

Wizard:

 

All spells have the delayed effect (+1/4) advantage with the number of slots they have is equal to their total base character points + XP/10 (to simulate levels) or total slots equal to their INT/3 or even a spell progession if you really wanted to get wacky. Then, build all of their spells with 1, 5, or 20 minute casting times (to make them cheaper). They then "memorize" their spell as the casting time. I'd probably do it with the 5 minute casting time, so then they can memorize 12 spells in an hour. The spells could be fueled off an endurance reserve or bought with zero endurance with uncontrolled (with the duration based upon how much they make their skill roll by).

 

Sorcerer:

 

Spells have a short casting time (1/2 phase), and no delayed effect. Power all of the spells off an endurance reserve with a recovery rate that is either very slow (1/hour, as mentioned above), or a recovery that works only when asleep. This has the effect of making the spells more expensive, and allowing the sorcerer to cast whatever spell whenever.

 

Priests:

 

Spells will be much like wizard spells, but with faith in lieu of skill. The spells will have two extra times: one for memorization, one for casting, to reflect that priests generally have a longer casting time than wizards do. Use delayed effect, as above. Fuel all of the spells by an end reserve. Buy all of the healing spells (or summoning spells if you are going to do this with Druids) with an advantage "abort slot to cast" for an additional +1/2 (or +0 if you wish, but I'd make it into some sort of advantage).

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Nightshade

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris makes good points here. The rules are there to give you and your players a common framework to run a campaign' date=' but it's a toolkit. KS has constructed a system that works for him and his campaigns. I suggest using it as a model, if you decide to go the VPP route. But there are a myriad of options available to you. [i']Fantasy Hero[/i] gives some others, and you can borrow one of them straight up, or play mix and match. It's your campaign, and magic works the way you want it to work. Don't feel you need to import D&D in any way, but use what you liked from it.

 

Some of us have been playing this system a long time, but don't take any of our words for the One True Way. Our suggestions are based on what we've seen and tried in our own campaigns. Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV).

 

Your campaign is yours, and we're here to help you make it a success.

In general I agree with the above; however I would like to qualify the statement regarding the Vancian systems vis a vis their use in my campaigns.

 

I created the Prepared Magic Systems as part of my D&D 3e to HERO System Conversion to model the source material fairly closely. When I created it I sat down with the existing Magic System I had used for years that I had developed for my original AD&D 2e to HERO System Conversion which had seen a lot of use as a start.

 

It was also VPP based, but it was basically Cosmic with the caveat that all Spells must come from a Known Spell list and had to have a minimum of -1/2 in Limitations from a list (the usual Spell suspects). It was END based, and no real limits were placed on the REC of the END Reserve. It was a very facile, flexible, and powerful form of Magic, and it was fun, and it worked. HOWEVER, it didnt really model AD&D style Magic very closely and was pretty overpowering -- magic users based on that build were very potent and had a tendency to overshadow other types of characters; the FREQUENCY of spell use on an END model combined with the high Active Points possible under that model was a bit much. However, the Skill model and guidelines for learning and creating new Spells had stood the test of time, and were reusable.

 

So, when I sat down to convert 3e to the HERO System, I pondered on my past experience and decided that for the purposes of a Conversion I really should stick a little closer to the source material and that I should also tone down the frequency or the Active Points a tad.

 

With that in mind I did a comprehensive breakdown of D&D 3e Magic, converted some of the key Spells into several different prototype Magic Systems to get an idea for "fit", and did other statistical and playability models that are much too detailed to get into (plus, this was several years ago and I don't recall everything anymore).

 

In the end I settled on the Prepared Casting model for Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.

 

Then I sat down and tried to figure out how to do D&D Spontaneous Magic. My first stab at it was to modify the Prepared VPP a bit and the GESTALT casting model was the result. I found that to be a cool model on its own, but it didnt quite model Bard & Sorceror style Spontaneous Magic as closely as I wanted. So I worked out the stacked Multipower idea and thus the Spontaneous model was created.

 

At that point it was pretty clear that almost any style of Magic Users could use any of the three models interchangably. I made Wizardry Prepared, "Arcanis Magnicus" Gestalt, and Sorcerors Spontaneous, but provided options for all of the other spin offs such as Elementalism, Clerical magic, and Druidic magic, as well as new styles I made up such as Sortilege and Stregari to chose between two or three of the base models.

 

 

Chugging along with that, I had originally intended to resume running campaigns in Greyhawk, where I have a long history of campaigns and a large body of knowledge / experience. However, I got bit by the Magic System bug and started churning out other Systems at a pretty good clip.

 

The first one was Aeldenaren, an EC based "inherent" form of magic use, followed by Totemic Shamanism and Peidregemasi. I also had some ideas for non-magic users that I wanted to test out as well. In the end I decided to excercise my world building skills and make a new setting that was implicitly intended to be a stage for new Magic Systems and other alternate concepts not found in D&D. In fact, that was a design precept of the setting -- distinct Magic Systems should have a direct affect on cultural groups and history in general. The goal was literally to pack in as many Magic Systems and variant forms of non-magic users as possible and see how they fare in the same environment.

 

As I made the setting, I would identify the need for a type of Magic System and create it, and as I made Magic Systems I would find a way to fit it in to the setting.

 

Though still technically a work in progress (Ive been on a long hiatus from it), before I ran out of steam and moved on I had made quite a lot of Magic Systems and Package Deals to go with them.

 

In their entirety, just counting specific implementations and not every possible combination of the Vancian models, every listed Style of Metier, every permutation of Aeldenaren, and so forth, 21 distinct systems of Magic in all, and since many of the systems provide a base document which the specific implementation reference, the basis exists for many more variants to easily be made.

 

This document compares the base model against each other, and at the bottom of the page are links to specific implementations:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.shtml

 

 

 

As much of the setting as I got typed in and webified is located here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/WorldOfSanDora.htm

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Killer Shrike - thank you, for taking the time to explain all of that. That I largely understood (and there was much rejoicing). I also have a much deeper appreciation for why your systems are designed the way they are. Because I'm a "why" thinker - without knowing the reason a thing was done, I have difficulty grasping it in the first place - this was actually astoundingly helpful, and it gave me some background as to your design and experience.

 

So you have my genuine and sincere thanks. I'm still trying to muddle through some of the other notes you've posted, because you're so familiar with the system you're speaking at times in terminology that goes right past me, so I find myself rereading the notes from the professor in an attempt to enhance my understanding of the mechanics themselves.

 

Riddle me this:

 

In your VPP model, you essentially "threw out" the spells known = total VPP limit, and instead improvised it to be "Can know any spell, but can only memorize a number of spells equal to real cost multiplied by current VPP, and can memorize multiple instances of a spell, and once a spell is consumed (one charge per 'slot') it can't be recharged until one night/8 hours rest.

 

Do I understand that correctly, or am I still missing something?

 

Chris Goodwin gave me a good example of how END reserves work, and that was groovy. I still see a few ways to incorporate it, and I may (despite your original model, KS) still have casters use END to cast prepared spells, but this (and i3ullseye suggested this) may be more in line with Sorcery, where the power comes from a specific internal reserve.

 

How do Wizards, under your Vacian system, gain new spells? Do they pay full CP in Real Cost? Is there a divider? Is there a rule for adding a spell into a VPP that I don't know off the top of my head that answers this question?

 

Thanks, and thanks. And... oh yeah. Rep. And thanks!

 

You must spread around more Reputation before giving it to Killer Shrike again. CURSES!