The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Well' date=' it's true and as I've said before, I only learn by doing and talking things through. The advantage being that I almost always get it. Killer Shrike's site is also becoming infinitely more useful now that I've got a better handle on the mechanics side of it.[/quote']

 

Glad to hear that.

 

So to improve the VPP, the PC must then spend CP at 1:1 to get a larger pool, thus opening up the option of memming more spells and learning bigger, badder ones, yes? That will get pricey, but such is the cost of fame.

 

Don't forget the additional Control Cost. Back to my example: because of the way rounding works and the Advantages and Limitations on the Control Cost, buying the Pool up to 45 points would increase the Real Points of the Control Cost to 10. I think that less than that would leave it at 9. Best to recalculate it for the new value, whenever you spend points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

What? Where's the tea?

 

Okay, so in order to improve the VPP, the PC must improve both the "hot" active points, and the "cold" control cost. Rawr. I start with a 30 Active VPP, and it costs me a rum total of 45 CP. Standard, character creation type stuff. Good.

 

I gain CP (w00t) and choose to improve my VPP. I pump it up to 40 points. I must now recalculate the total cost of the revised Control and pay that as well, is that what you're saying (using a clean example, an extra 5 CP for a total of 20).

 

Yes, no?

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Aleister’s Flashy Stuff (Multipower)

30 pt Multipower Pool, Incatations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1) Charges recover after 8 hours rest, Charges must be preassigned (-1/4), 11 pts Real.

 

a) 1u Snake of Fire, RKA 1d6, 1 Hex AoE (Accurate)(+1/2), AP (+1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), OAF Expendable (easy to obtain)(-1)

 

1u Swarm of Locusts, Leap +20", Accurate +10(?) pts, Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), OAF Expendable (easy to obtain)(-1)

 

c) 1u Cage of Bone, Entangle 3d6, Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), OAF Expendable (easy to obtain)(-1)

 

So, Aleister can use his Flashy Stuff (Multipower) 4 times each day or so - his ability/power/mana/whatever recovers after he rests for 8 hours.

 

When he wakes/stops meditating/whatever, he assigns the charges to the spells. Meaning, he can use Snake of Fire 4 times, OR Snake of Fire (1), Swarm of Locusts (1), Cage of Bone (2), OR Swarm of Locusts (4) OR Swarm of Locusts (1), Cage of Bone (3) Or you know, whatever combinations totaling 4 uses.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

What? Where's the tea?

 

Okay, so in order to improve the VPP, the PC must improve both the "hot" active points, and the "cold" control cost. Rawr. I start with a 30 Active VPP, and it costs me a rum total of 45 CP. Standard, character creation type stuff. Good.

 

I gain CP (w00t) and choose to improve my VPP. I pump it up to 40 points. I must now recalculate the total cost of the revised Control and pay that as well, is that what you're saying (using a clean example, an extra 5 CP for a total of 20).

 

Yes, no?

 

Yes, assuming no Limitations on the VPP itself (a straight plain vanilla construction), for every 2 points you add to the pool it costs 1 more point on the control cost side. To go from a 30 point VPP (costing 45 points total) to a 40 point VPP (costing 60 points total), you add 10 points to the pool itself and 5 points to the control cost. When you have Limitations on the control cost (Gestures, Incantations, etc) that changes the numbers a bit. With -1/2 in Limitations on the control cost, those 10 points in the pool add 3 Real Points to the control cost.

 

However, this added complexity is part of the reason why I feel a spell pool Talent is kind of cool, since it simplifies the math for newbie players: no control cost is involved at all. You want a 30 point spell pool, it costs 30 points. You want a 52 point pool, it costs 52 points. But it otherwise works like a VPP as Chris demonstrated in his sample build. You use up the points with the spells you slot into it (which can be built using Charges to show the number of times that spell can be used that day). What is also cool is that you can take that same game mechanic construct and use it different ways to show different things. A Wizard's version of the Talent (which can be called Wizardry) requires all spells to be memmed from a spellbook, all powers to be built with RSR, etc. However, a Sorcerer's version of the same Talent (call it Sorcery) would have different requirements on any spells taken through it. Maybe a Sorcerer doesn't need to worry about RSR, so their spells are a little more costly and take up a little more of the Sorcery pool than a Wizard's spells take of the Wizardry pool. A Cleric could have a Talent as well (call it Divine Magic), but the spells slotted into this Talent requires all spells to be built "Subject to god's purposes" or the like.

 

If a character desires to have multiple magics available, such as Clerical magic and Sorcery, it's as simple as taking two separate Talent pools. For example, a character could have a 20-point Divine Magic Talent and a 10-point Sorcery Talent. You can also subdivide magic into different categories to show a character who is more specialized. In Fantasy Hero there is a sample magic system which uses Talents (called Arcana) for Elementalism, Necromancy, etc., instead of a single Talent for Magic.

 

You can figure the Real Cost of a spell by means of normal Advantages and Limitations, then use that point cost to see how much of the Talent's pool points are used up, or go an additional step and divide it by whatever number you choose to use as a cost divider. The higher the divider number (which is suggested to max at 5), the cheaper and more plentiful magic becomes.

 

I know I'm pretty much rehashing things I've said in prior posts, but I think this method makes for a reasonably clean way to do magic as far as what it costs the player in terms of points spent on the character sheet.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

What? Where's the tea?

 

Okay, so in order to improve the VPP, the PC must improve both the "hot" active points, and the "cold" control cost. Rawr. I start with a 30 Active VPP, and it costs me a rum total of 45 CP. Standard, character creation type stuff. Good.

 

I gain CP (w00t) and choose to improve my VPP. I pump it up to 40 points. I must now recalculate the total cost of the revised Control and pay that as well, is that what you're saying (using a clean example, an extra 5 CP for a total of 20).

 

Yes, no?

 

Correct!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Hey, that's pretty cool. So they're the guys in the "introduction" chapter of most stories who usually end up dead by the end of the chapter at the hands of the big bad guy or his heralds to show how badass he is. An excellent way to jump start a campaign!

Bingo! It also lets you later introduce "allied" NPC's that the characters won't instantly distrust, if your player tend to run in that direction( Because the players have "been" them).

What can I say... I'm a sucker for a good plot device.

 

The more I've thought about it' date=' the more I want to enforce RSR, but I also don't want to get into a boxing match with the players on it, either. Separate thread. Moving on.[/quote']

I'm a big believer in making RSR a required Limit in most fantasy games... without it magic feels too superheroish to me

 

I want magic to be affordable for the mages' date=' but the total amount of spell slinging they do per day to be controlled. Using a 150 pt. model, I don't see how they can afford a pool of a decent size and purchase spells to place in it, even if they sit at the x3 max the Killer Shrike suggested originally.:[/quote']

Tho this was before you had an apostrophy and figured out that if you have a VPP you don't need to pay for individual spells, for the record.. you're still right. at 150 points, magic users will be hard pressed to be as effective as other starting character classes unless you come up with a good balanced way to nerf the system so they are effective without becoming overwheming.

A 1/3 cost divisor on spells like is suggested in TA is oner way to do so.

it risks getting out of hand when you combine it with frameworks tho... be warned. You may need to let your players know that Magic is in Flux, or some such bull, and that you may need to redo parts of the magic system if magic proves either too effective or too worthless.

 

I am going to be running a mini arc about a small group of characters elsewhere in the Empire who have a direct impact on the military unit's story arc' date=' though, to test pieces of the system, so I had considered that! Good advice![/quote']

This is basically what I was suggesting, with a slightly cinematic/literary flair

 

Dammit. What? Multipower... with Charges? I grep multipower (thankfully' date=' that took a while) and I grep 'charges' (also easy, that one was a direct import). Can you extrapolate on how to blend the two into a creamy mocha blend with a hint of peppermint?[/quote']

 

If Shadowpups example didn't show you the light, here's an analogy thats pretty common for some champions characters that might be easaier to grasp.... The Archer.

He has a multipower that reflects all sorts of differnet arrows... each slot is a differnt type of arrow.... aromor peircing for a bodkin, Straight high damage for a broadhead, Normal attack for a blunt, etc. He then takes a Charges limit on the pool... say 24 charges. Thats how many arrows he can carry in his quiver at one time. So he has to decide, out of those charges, how many arrows of each type he is carrying. Maybe 12 broadheads, 8 bodkins and 4 blunts one time, and 24 bodkins the next. He doesn't get to change the allocation unless he is in the right circumstances to do so (when he has access to a supply of arrows to choose from).

Same idea, just substitute "spells" for "arrows" and "Maximum number of memorized spells" for "quiver"

 

Actually, that concept (you are all unified under X cause/purpose/person, draft characters based on that) is how I start all my campaigns. It's a standing rule to make launching the character easier and giving all PCs commonality.

I do much the same, circumstances varied by game. I don't always... but I usually come up with a compelling reason for everyone to work together right from the beginning. I'm not real big on "You're all in a tavern" chance meetings and glowing mystic "I am a PC" runes on the forehead that prompt complete strangers to decide to work together towards some risky common goal

 

I got it backwards then! If the pool has the disad' date=' then [i']everything else[/i] must follow the leader, yes?

 

So 40 = 40 real points. I got excited and criss-crossed my numbers; 40, got it. Then the HR of 1/3rd would make sense both for purchases and "spells allowed" to simulate flexibility. Holy cats. I think it finally clicked. Only took... 73 posts and a lot of patience on y'alls part.

 

w00t.

 

Sorceror's I was going to multi-power. I ain't figured out Priests yet. I've got one in the party saying "VPP for spontaneous casting!" which might actually work, given my now infinitely deeper grasp of VPPs. However, I was also seriously considering ECs, which I think could start a whole new discussion, my primary concern being their cost. The example FREd gives suggests a 150 point EC, but considering that Sorcery is very thematic in my campaign, this framework makes excellent sense, and would allow the PC to do things they couldn't otherwise do.

 

Talk about your crash course.

By jove, I think he's getting it! W00t!

I'd steer clear of EC's... they don't work well in low point games usually... they are much better for Supers and statting up some forms of critters , IMO.

If you want your Priests to have very free form magic, a possible option would be a VPP style "Faith" talent, representing the Power Pool of a VPP, modified by whatever common limits you see fit to drop on it... but with no control cost(and yes, by the book, the Power Pool can't be modified... feel free to ignore it if it works and fits your needs. One reason I like GMing is it allows me to be a munchkin rulesmonger without breaking anyones game... because I am balancing my own game). "WHAT????" I hear you scream. Wheres the Control Cost then? Answer... your God, were he/she/it to be written up, would have an extremely or infinitly large Faith Control Cost, Usable By Others. Most of the time in play, your Faith pools would work like a normal VPP, with a normal control limit (So if you have a 30 point Pool, you can have 30 RP's worth of powers active, with each power having a maximum of 30 AP's). But if you are naughty, God might clip your wings and cut your control. On the other hand, if you REALLY need it, especially if you have a Contact or Favor with the Big Guy, he can up your available AP to whatever the GM deems fit. In the case of a Contact, I'd probably go with a flat +5 or +10 maximum AP's for one "miracle" per point you make the contact roll by.

 

Did that make any sense?

 

What? Where's the tea?

 

Okay, so in order to improve the VPP, the PC must improve both the "hot" active points, and the "cold" control cost. Rawr. I start with a 30 Active VPP, and it costs me a rum total of 45 CP. Standard, character creation type stuff. Good.

 

I gain CP (w00t) and choose to improve my VPP. I pump it up to 40 points. I must now recalculate the total cost of the revised Control and pay that as well, is that what you're saying (using a clean example, an extra 5 CP for a total of 20).

 

Yes, no?

Exactly correct.

 

now that you have the "as per Hoyle" official way to do it down, I'll revisit something I mentioned before that might have gone 'whoosh'.

A long discussed option on these boards that I am personally quite fond of is divorcing the link between Pool Cost and Control Cost.

That is to say... The Pool Cost is 1:1 and evermore shall be it so. This is the maximum number of real points worth of spells you can have at one time.

The Control Cost is based on the Maximum AP of each spell. 2Ap =1 real point.

Normally the RP of the Pool and the AP of the Control are the same, so a 30 point VPP would have a base Control cost of 15 points, and would allow each spell to be 30 active points.

If you unlink the two costs, in creates some interesting possibilities.

examples(I'm not putting any limits on these so as to avoid confusing the issue)...

Cantrip Pool (for your Grey Mouser type character who left his apprenticeship and never looked back)

20 point VPP "Cantrips" cost :20 points

Control cost: Maximum 10 AP per spell : 5 points

Total cost 25 points.

Can have up to 20 RP worth of spells at one time, but the max any spell can have is 10 active points.

 

Ritual Master Pool (Good for world shaking evil mages who are still easy for a Barbarian to lop in half at the climatic finale)

30 Point VPP "Ritual Magics" :30 points

Control cost: Maximum 150 AP per spell : 75 points

Total cost: 105 points without limits. Cost obviously would probably be decreased by putting massive common limits on the Control cost.. requires all sorts of Immobile Expensive arranged Focuses (Magic circles, virgin sacrifices etc), Ritual limits (must have a circle of fanatical worshippers to cast spell), extra time upthe wazoo, etc.

This would allow 30 Real points worth of spells at one time, but each spell could get up to 150 active points, if properly limited.

 

incedentally, speaking of cantrips...

Have you seenThis thread on the topic of cantrips and minor magics? well worth persusing to get some design ideas if nothing else.

 

I still don't have that write up ready, but its coming along

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Oh, yeah...

Couple more quick things...

If you go with a VPP model, you still have a choice between the Charges route and the Delayed effect Route. Charges make spells cheaper. Extra Time makes Delayed Effect cheaper. They are not mutually exclusive either. One advantage to delayed effect (without charges) is that if you put a Delayed Effect built power into your pool, you don't have to refigure the cost of the spell based on the number of uses the character wants to memorize, as that mechanisim is seperate from the cost.

 

Two... it might not be super obvious, or it might be... but the VPP limitation Limited Class of powers is your FRIEND if you are using a magic VPP that you want to simulate D&D style magic. The Limited class is of course, "Spells you have in your spell book" No making up new spells/powers on the fly..... you have all your spells prewritten, and new spells either require lengthy and expensive Spell Research (a subset of the Inventor skill, usually) or gaining the spell from someone or something that has the Formula... learning it from someone who already knows the spell, copying it from a spellbook you find or capture, copying it from a scroll, etc. Allows the flexibility of a VPP while encouraging the same "quest to find new spells" that is part of the way the D&D magic system was written (tho it's not always played that way, IME)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I had a Race Package Deal for Tieflings in the old 2nd edition AD&D conversion -- looks like it didnt survive the overhall into the generic content format.

 

Ill look around for it when I get home this weekend.

 

 

There was also packages for male and female bariaur, and maybe some other Planescape oddities.

[Lucius]

Oh My Gods, THE Way to do Variable Power Pools......

 

now that you have the "as per Hoyle" official way to do it down, I'll revisit something I mentioned before that might have gone 'whoosh'.

A long discussed option on these boards that I am personally quite fond of is divorcing the link between Pool Cost and Control Cost.

That is to say... The Pool Cost is 1:1 and evermore shall be it so. This is the maximum number of real points worth of spells you can have at one time.

The Control Cost is based on the Maximum AP of each spell. 2Ap =1 real point.

Normally the RP of the Pool and the AP of the Control are the same, so a 30 point VPP would have a base Control cost of 15 points, and would allow each spell to be 30 active points.

If you unlink the two costs, in creates some interesting possibilities.

examples(I'm not putting any limits on these so as to avoid confusing the issue)...

Cantrip Pool (for your Grey Mouser type character who left his apprenticeship and never looked back)

20 point VPP "Cantrips" cost :20 points

Control cost: Maximum 10 AP per spell : 5 points

Total cost 25 points.

Can have up to 20 RP worth of spells at one time, but the max any spell can have is 10 active points.

 

Ritual Master Pool (Good for world shaking evil mages who are still easy for a Barbarian to lop in half at the climatic finale)

30 Point VPP "Ritual Magics" :30 points

Control cost: Maximum 150 AP per spell : 75 points

Total cost: 105 points without limits. Cost obviously would probably be decreased by putting massive common limits on the Control cost.. requires all sorts of Immobile Expensive arranged Focuses (Magic circles, virgin sacrifices etc), Ritual limits (must have a circle of fanatical worshippers to cast spell), extra time upthe wazoo, etc.

This would allow 30 Real points worth of spells at one time, but each spell could get up to 150 active points, if properly limited.

 

incedentally, speaking of cantrips...

Have you seenThis thread on the topic of cantrips and minor magics? well worth persusing to get some design ideas if nothing else.

 

I still don't have that write up ready, but its coming along

 

 

"You must spread some reputation around before giving any to AmadanNaBriona again."

 

I owe you!

 

I KNEW I never liked the way Variable Power Pools worked, with the Pool limiting active cost, I KNEW there had to be a better way...now I see I was halfway there, what with one thing or another, but I think you hit the bullseye, THIS is what it SHOULD be. This opens up possibilities.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Very excited, and he has a palindromedary

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Oh My Gods, THE Way to do Variable Power Pools......

 

"You must spread some reputation around before giving any to AmadanNaBriona again."

 

I owe you!

 

I KNEW I never liked the way Variable Power Pools worked, with the Pool limiting active cost, I KNEW there had to be a better way...now I see I was halfway there, what with one thing or another, but I think you hit the bullseye, THIS is what it SHOULD be. This opens up possibilities.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Very excited, and he has a palindromedary

Thanks, but to share the credit... a few months back there were several threads dedicated to the idea where a BUNCH of us hammered on the idea till it was in a good useable format. Its one of the things that I REALLY hope makes its way into the 6th edition.. it opens the horizons of VPP's up to let them really shine. For my games I'm likely never to go back, unless for some reason I decide to run a "teaching game" thats is strictly by the book.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

*blink*

 

Okay. So I start off with a VPP. Mister Mage has is in character gen. He wants to get a bit of munchkin on, so he pumps his stats a bit (60 pts.) and buys a few key skills (30 pts.) and leaves 60 pts. to futz with in his VPP. Under the build offered by The Fool, the VPP works as such:

 

The HOT wire controls how much live, raw power the PC can fling at once. He wants some flex at level one; he purchases 30 points. Down to 30 already. However, he can disad his Control Cost, which he promptly does, by taking Required Charges Never Exceeding 1 (-2) needs 8 hours rest (-1/2) needs ph4t spell book (-1/2). He decides to burn 20 CP on his COLD line, his max cap for Active Points in a Spell. 20/4 = 5. CHEAP. Simple enough.

 

He's now spent 35 points, has 30 points of assignable spells in terms of Real Points, and a Control Cost of 20 * 2 = 40 point Active Max. He can choose to improve his Active Points at a 1:1 ratio. He can (using this example) choose to improve his Control (and subsequently, his max Active Points) at a 1:4 ratio (in his favor, 1 CP = 4 points in his Control).

 

Because all spells must Follow the Leader, none of them can be changed out without the book (where they live, no bonus) or rest (part of the VPP, no bonus) but they must all be purchased with One Charge, to represent each memorization of the spell itself.

 

Do I have that right?

 

Second question: A PC purchases an EC (Sorcery, Theme: Ice/Cold). They read the rules and see this tidbit: The individual powers must meet or exceed the actual cost of the EC. To make the EC efficient, they burn 15 CP in it, and begin buying '1st level' Sorceries, those costing 15 CP or more. If they purchase 10 powers, each power (regardless of its cost, so long as that cost is greater than or equal to 15 Real Points) is calculated in effectiveness including the 15 points in the EC itself.

 

Yes? Or are powers in an EC purchased based on Active Points? I'm assuming that if the PC spends 15 on EC: The Force, and then decides "I am a Padawan, my control of the Force is weak, but" they build four powers, each with Concentration, Gestures (What are you doing, waving your hand around like that?) and for Padawan purposes, Incantations ("You don't need to see his identification." (or) "I find your lack of faith disturbing.") Those are then costed out and the Real Cost applied against the character's CP, and placed within the EC.

 

Later, the Padawn gets better on their way to Jedi Knight. They improve their EC by 15 points (making the base EC 30). Now. Do I need to improve each power first until their Active Cost is 30, and then can I improve the EC, or can the EC simply never be improved?

 

Good morning!

[Markdoc]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Later' date=' the Padawn gets better on their way to Jedi Knight. They improve their EC by 15 points (making the base EC 30). Now. Do I need to improve each [i']power first[/i] until their Active Cost is 30, and then can I improve the EC, or can the EC simply never be improved?

 

Good morning!

 

They can improve the EC. Few things are fixed in magnitude in Hero unless you choose to fix them as a GM.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

But they would have to improve the powers so as not to contradict the EC must be greater or equal to the powers rule, yes?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The Fool: Oh, before I forget, here's another player point that I don't have the experience to answer. I promoted the Delay/Trigger concept (preparing the spell ahead of time and 'finalizing' it with a trigger word) and his response was as such:

 

"You could do that, but since you're using Delayed Effect, I'd like to know where the spell is targeted now. Since you're using the power," he argued, "there has to be an assigned target. As GM," he said, recounting his tale of when this had happened to him, "I have a right to know."

 

Thoughts?

[Markdoc]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The Fool: Oh, before I forget, here's another player point that I don't have the experience to answer. I promoted the Delay/Trigger concept (preparing the spell ahead of time and 'finalizing' it with a trigger word) and his response was as such:

 

"You could do that, but since you're using Delayed Effect, I'd like to know where the spell is targeted now. Since you're using the power," he argued, "there has to be an assigned target. As GM," he said, recounting his tale of when this had happened to him, "I have a right to know."

 

Thoughts?

 

My thought is he is confusing trigger (I *use* the power now but it takes effect when the trigger condition is met) and delayed effect (I *set*the*power*up* now and use it later, when I want).

 

They are two different things. Note, I suggested using trigger INSTEAD of delayed affect, not as well as.

 

With regard to trigger, your player is sort of right. You could set a spell with trigger on a doorway (trigger: when someone comes through the door not wearing a snake sigil) and it will go off regardless of whether you are there or not. So where you cast it matters. However, in the case of triggered powers that you carry around, if they go off on you, no problem, you cast it on yourself. If they are touch range, they go off just beyond your fingertip. For aimed spells, it's a bit iffier. What I - and most GM's I know - allow is "the spell goes off here, 2 mm from the end of my finger*, aimed straight forward, when I say ickity, tickity, boo". In which case, it's point and shoot (requiring an attack roll, naturally, to indicate the accuracy of your pointing).

 

* or your pupil, or your nose or even, god forbid, other pointing body parts

 

With regard to delayed effect, you get the power *ready* for use, but don't actually use it - you do that later. You can't, for example, use delayed effect to set up an attack that goes off after you and Elvis have left the building.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

AHA. So it is doable, and he was right, but there's an inherent work-around for it. "The spell creates a line, and the origination point is my spread fingers." Thus the fwackoom starts here, and since it has an AOE of a Line, ends somewhere over there.

 

This makes sense to me. It seems a bit munchkin, but it makes sense. Both Liaden and The Fool had suggested using them combined earlier in the thread I beleive, and The Fool was putting together a note package for my reference. His build on the variation on VPPs makes sense to me, actually, so that's something right there. It's expensive, but now there are no 'wasted' points.

 

I think for Wizards, now that I grasp what the Control Cost, Power Pool itself are, and see how the build and variations on that theme work. I don't know why it was so hard in the first place; probably because I lacked both lingo and the actual experience required to process the information. Once I had re-read the original VPP rules and began piecing together everyone was talking about variations on that, and Chris Goodwin posted a full blown, Hoyle example, things cooled out significantly in my head.

 

The lava can still be pushed around quite a bit, but it's no longer untouchably hot.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The Fool: Oh, before I forget, here's another player point that I don't have the experience to answer. I promoted the Delay/Trigger concept (preparing the spell ahead of time and 'finalizing' it with a trigger word) and his response was as such:

 

"You could do that, but since you're using Delayed Effect, I'd like to know where the spell is targeted now. Since you're using the power," he argued, "there has to be an assigned target. As GM," he said, recounting his tale of when this had happened to him, "I have a right to know."

 

Thoughts?

In general, most "store & release" style magic systems, IMO, work best with Delayed Effect just because of the game play differences. I'll break 'em down, then post an example.

Delayed Effect is "stored" ahead of time, taking up a "slot", the number of which a player has available is based on whatever criteria the GM decides for his game. Int/5 is a common starting point for slots, usually with some way for wizards to increase their storage potential. Every active spell requires a slot to operate... so a Int 20 character could have a total of 4 spells active at one time (assuming the INT/5 ground rule is unmodified). So if the character is wandering around with a Sheild Spell and an Understand Languages Spell both active , he could have 2 more spells stored. Delayed Effect takes a 1/2 phase to release and can have limitations that apply to either the Storing (Memorization) or the Release (Casting). End cost is payed for at either time, decided when you build the spell.

Triggered efffects have indeed already been cast, and there are plenty of examples in published suppliments to show that Markdoc has the right of it... the trigger doesn't HAVE to be an outside stimuli, but can be an action by the character. The Triggered Spell is considered basically done with everything but the boom when you have completed creating the trigger... it takes no time to release, requires no slots, costs no endurance, etc.. you do all that when you set the trigger. To keep the D&D feel, you may have to limited the number of triggered effects you'll allow a character to have ready at one time.

Both are a possibility, and one used in my old character a fair bit...

 

Example:

Fireball

2d6 RKA, Explosion -1 DC/2" (+3/4), & EITHER Delayed Effect (+1/4) or Trigger (+1/4): 30 base points, 60 active points (this is our basic power)

 

Delayed effect build:

Storing limitations: OAF: Phat Spellbook, bulky (-1 1/2), Extra Time: 20 minutes (-2 1/2), Concentrate 0 DCV (-1/2) x2 END (-1/2)

Release Limitations: Verbal Component:Incantations (-1/4), Somatic Component: Gestures (-1/4), Material Component (Ball of pitch): (as an additional require Focus, this doesn't get the full focus value, just the elements not already taken with the spell book) Fragile & Expendable (easy to replace) (-1/2 additional focus limit), Requires Magic Skill Roll (-1/2)

Total limitation value: (-6 1/2)

Real Cost: 60/ (1 + 6 1/2) = 8 points (not counting any divisor that may be in effect in your campaign)

END cost: 12 , Skill Roll: -6 to magic skill

 

Trigger Build:

Limitations: OAF Phat spell book & material component (-2, as above but combined), Extra Time: 20 minutes (-2 1/2), Concentrate 0 DCV (-1/2) x2 END (-1/2) Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2)

Total limitation: (-6)

Real Cost: 60/ (1 + 6) 8.57 points, rounds to 9 points

END cost: 12 , Skill Roll: -6 to magic skill

Triggered when the Ball of pitch (material component) is flung at a target (somatic component) while the command words are spoken to release the spell(verbal component).

Note isn this case that the "Gestures" and "Incantations" are really more of a definition of the trigger than actual limitations, but a GM could choose to also give the limit values for them. In my case, I feel that the extra utility of the 0 phase action to release the spell and the lack of "slot" usage makes up for missing out on the extra limits.

 

The other significant difference between the two is that the Skill roll on the Delayed Effect Version is, by the rules, made at the time of release... you may have memorized the spell, but if you don't get it all proper and correct when you cast it it fizzles. The triggered version makes the Skill roll when the spell is prepared... the caster KNOWS if he blew it or not when he finishes the spell... failure simply means he's lost the time in casting, the END, and possibly one use of his component).

 

It'd also be possible to take off the extra size bonus on the Explosion (dropping it to -1 DC/1") and give the spell both Delayed Effect and Trigger, using the Delayed Effect set of limitations, and redefining the trigger as, say, "If anyone but me reads this Gylph".

Glyph of Barbeque spell.

*Bam!*

 

In retrospect, after reading up a bit, I'd modify my Mastery talent (from several posts ago) to allow additional "preperation" slots equal to the active spell slots... so everyone gets Int/5 active slots. thats the number of spells a character can have active, period, unless all spells by up the Delayed Effect advantage to increase the active slots (as per FREd/ 5Er). Each level of the Mastery talent gives an additional Int/5 worth of Preperation slots that can only be used to "hang" additional Delayed Effect spells.

 

And just as a mechanical note...

I built the Fireball above working off a couple of design considerations I've been pondering... for my purposes, specifically that to mimic D&D magic, I'm currently playing with 20 AP & 4 END = 1 spell level. Hence the 60 AP cost and x2 END. Spells would be powered from an END reserve bought to represent the maximum number of spell levels per day the caster can hold.

the reserve would look something like this...

 

Mana Reserve

END Reserve:40 END Cost: 4 ponts

Recovery: 5 REC/hour (-2), O DCV concentrate throughout (must sleep or meditate deeply) (-1) cost= 5/ (1+3) = 1.25, rounds to 1 point

Total Cost 5 points

 

while slots represent the maximum number of spells the character can hold, the Reserve determines the total "spell levels" the caster can prepare when fully rested. So the above END reserve , following my guidelines, would let you prepare up to 10 "first level spells" costing 4 end each, or 3 fireballs, which are 3rd level, (total 36 end), plus one first level spell or any combonation thereof. The only difference is that by this system, a mage could prepare a LOT more high level spells if he has the time to rest between memorization sessions... in effect, with enough time he could fill all of his slots with his highest level spells as long as he spends enouigh time preparing ( and resting to replenish his reserve). To avoid this simply put a limitation on the End Reserve similar to Conditional: Lockout, that states that the maximum amount of Reserve END that can be spent to cast spells is decreased by any prepared but not cast spells... so after "hanging" 40 END worth of spells, you could rest to recover your Mana, but you'd not be able to memorize any new spells until you had cast some that you had already hung. I'd say this is probably around a (-1/2) limit to the END of the Reserve.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

AHA. So it is doable' date=' and he was right, but there's an inherent work-around for it. "The spell creates a line, and the origination point is my spread fingers." Thus the fwackoom [i']starts [/i]here, and since it has an AOE of a Line, ends somewhere over there.

 

This makes sense to me. It seems a bit munchkin, but it makes sense. Both Liaden and The Fool had suggested using them combined earlier in the thread I beleive, and The Fool was putting together a note package for my reference. His build on the variation on VPPs makes sense to me, actually, so that's something right there. It's expensive, but now there are no 'wasted' points.

 

I think for Wizards, now that I grasp what the Control Cost, Power Pool itself are, and see how the build and variations on that theme work. I don't know why it was so hard in the first place; probably because I lacked both lingo and the actual experience required to process the information. Once I had re-read the original VPP rules and began piecing together everyone was talking about variations on that, and Chris Goodwin posted a full blown, Hoyle example, things cooled out significantly in my head.

 

The lava can still be pushed around quite a bit, but it's no longer untouchably hot.

 

lets see what I can come up with to fit with my last example...

Wizards Spellcraft (can whip up a 3rd level spell or two... probably roughly equivilant to a 5th level wizard or so.. about right for a 150 point game)

40 Point VPP "Wizardry" :40 points

Control cost: Maximum 60 AP per spell : 30 base points

Control Cost modifiers: Limited Class of powers (Only spells scribed in book, and only as written... much research, find or purchace new spells) (-1/2), OAF bulky: Spellbook (-1 1/2)

required common limits: Extra Time 20 minutes (-2 1/2), 0 DCV Concentrate (-1/2) Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2) Variable Limitation -1 (all spells must have an additional -1 worth of limits from Gestures, Incatations, Increased End cost, Side Effects, Ritual Conditions, additional materials, Extra time (on release for Delayed effect powers etc...) (-1/2)

total limits on Control Cost: (-6)

Control Cost: 30/ (1+6) = 4 points

total cost of VPP: 44 points.

 

All spells powered by a Mana End Reserve (see prior post)

All spells require a Magic Skill roll.

Creating new spells also requires the Inventor (spell research) skill, but additional spells can still be gained from other sources.

Spells are not REQUIRED to take Trigger or Delyed Effect, but the Common limits on the pool are such that any spells without one or the other will be virtually useless as combat spells. Allows for casting straight from the book tho.

I resisted the urge to use Increased End as a common limit, because to tailor spells to fit the END reserve structure, an individual spell (especially a constant or continous one) may need tweaking to fit the 4 end/spell level model. Best optio0n is judicious use of the "End cost only at startup" advantage for constant spells.

 

add this (at 44 points) with the Mana pool (5 points), Magic Skill (3 points base 9+INT/5... figure probably a base 13- with around a +4 to start with, so 11 points) and Apprentice Mastery talent (5 points, allows caster to prepare an additional INT/5 spells in addition to base active spells) and you've spent 65 of your 150 points for a pretty effective mage.

Voila!

 

*does snaky little Jim Morrison wiggle*

"I am the Munchkin King, I can do anything!"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Dammit, Fool, what happened to simple? I liked simple. I was good with simple. I was even able to explain simple to others (my personal litmus test; if I can answer their questions and confer comprehension, I've got it down). Don't make me bust out my iron Athame on you.

 

But this isn't about simple, this is about me mastering a system. And I will be G-d D****d if I'm not going to do that.

 

*calmly rolls up his sleeves, focusing* You know, tragically, I enjoy this sort of thing. Okay.

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

In general, most "store & release" style magic systems, IMO, work best with Delayed Effect just because of the game play differences. I'll break 'em down, then post an example.

Delayed Effect is "stored" ahead of time, taking up a "slot", the number of which a player has available is based on whatever criteria the GM decides for his game. Int/5 is a common starting point for slots, usually with some way for wizards to increase their storage potential. Every active spell requires a slot to operate... so a Int 20 character could have a total of 4 spells active at one time (assuming the INT/5 ground rule is unmodified). So if the character is wandering around with a Sheild Spell and an Understand Languages Spell both active , he could have 2 more spells stored. Delayed Effect takes a 1/2 phase to release and can have limitations that apply to either the Storing (Memorization) or the Release (Casting). End cost is payed for at either time, decided when you build the spell.

 

Sorry, wouldn't this be easier as a Charged Multipower (see Shadowpup's post on Aliesters Magical Stuff.) I may be utterly missing the mark - which happens to my rookie a** - but this to me sounds like an over complicated usage of these abilities, munchkinism aside. Slow this down and enlighten?

 

Triggered efffects have indeed already been cast, and there are plenty of examples in published suppliments to show that Markdoc has the right of it...

 

So then the general concept that he posted, and I confirmed is correct. The trigger is the mage's final word, and his "target" can be "what I touch" or "whatever's on the wrong end of this finger." This one I've got; and in order to combine Delayed Effect with Trigger you tie them together, but everyone keeps saying one or the other; this or that. Why don't they stack? Did I miss something on the stacking rule for these two?

 

"Get back, demon! This finger's loaded!" Aziraphale: "What the... oh." And then he said a word he almost never said, and vanished. - Paraphrased from the man, Terry Pratchett, Good Omens

 

All the slotting has made my head spin, and that's partially because when I think 'slot' I go straight back to d20, which is grossly limited in what it allows casters to do in a given day; in HERO, I don't give a whit if they mem multiple instances of the same spell, it's their mana, they can do with it as they please, but you're also HRing the slot concept. I humbly request you slow that down as well, and start over. Less chains, more safe words.

 

while slots represent the maximum number of spells the character can hold, the Reserve determines the total "spell levels" the caster can prepare when fully rested.

 

I thought I got yelled at for doing a free-standing END reserve build? Argh... now you're simply attaching an END Reserve (modded) to a VPP (spell book) and assigning slots based on stat math, yes? I'll have to read it a few times to grep all the mechanics, but do I have the gist? You appear to be using a similar assigned END mechanic to the one I had previously suggested; it works best in a free standing build, and allows the caster to consume as much END as he likes, but caps him out based on (X) where (X) was a piece of math I hadn't figured out yet. That's why your VPP variant works for me, and was subsequently swiped.

 

This, however, is off the map:

Originally Posted by The Fool

Control cost: Maximum 60 AP per spell : 30 base points

Control Cost modifiers: Limited Class of powers (Only spells scribed in book, and only as written... much research, find or purchace new spells) (-1/2), OAF bulky: Spellbook (-1 1/2)

required common limits: Extra Time 20 minutes (-2 1/2), 0 DCV Concentrate (-1/2) Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2) Variable Limitation -1 (all spells must have an additional -1 worth of limits from Gestures, Incatations, Increased End cost, Side Effects, Ritual Conditions, additional materials, Extra time (on release for Delayed effect powers etc...) (-1/2)

total limits on Control Cost: (-6)

Control Cost: 30/ (1+6) = 4 points

total cost of VPP: 44 points.

 

I know for a fact I can't decipher all of this without rewriting it, but the more I read through each function the more sense it's making for me. An improvement over yesterday morning, when I was ready to start crying.

 

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

 

OAF Bulky Spell Book - I hadn't considered an OAF, because I'm using a prepare/cast model, not a "Hold my book like a tool and get smacked" model. Only 1/2, but applied to the control cost it's still dirt cheap.

 

Variable Limits Must Equal -1 or more - that's a good way of expressing it; then it's -1, and if over, great, but has to be -1 to go into the book. Niff!

 

Bleh. RSR. It's enough they need a to hit roll; I don't like making people roll twice to generate the effect, that's a little too random. Urban? Yes. I think, more importantly, that everything should have one roll associated with it. Therefore a Summon forces a roll, despite it not "hitting" anything.

 

Now I need to reread the Skill section, but if I have that right, then I've found a way to really punish my caster and make him think before he builds spells. The question becomes how do I keep him from simply "buying up" the skill and retrying every time he fails? There'd need to be a time cap on that. More fuel for cranial consumption.

 

add this (at 44 points) with the Mana pool (5 points), Magic Skill (3 points base 9+INT/5... figure probably a base 13- with around a +4 to start with, so 11 points) and Apprentice Mastery talent (5 points, allows caster to prepare an additional INT/5 spells in addition to base active spells) and you've spent 65 of your 150 points for a pretty effective mage.

 

What?

 

Where's the tea?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

 

Yes and no. I'm not sure where you're getting skill roll equal to 11+END/2. Most people change Inventor into Spell Research; I prefer calling it its own skill. It would be 3 points for 9+INT/5, 2 points per +1. I'm not sure there are hard and fast rules for researching spells, but it's not unreasonable to require -1 to the research Skill Roll per 10 Active Points in the spell to be researched. There are almost as many ways of doing this as there are magic systems, and a lot of them boil down to: apply whatever modifiers, materials, and time requirements the GM feels are reasonable.

 

Now I need to reread the Skill section, but if I have that right, then I've found a way to really punish my caster and make him think before he builds spells. The question becomes how do I keep him from simply "buying up" the skill and retrying every time he fails? There'd need to be a time cap on that. More fuel for cranial consumption.

 

Again, don't have book with me, but I think there's a "repeated skill use" rule, where every repeated use of a skill after failure is at a cumulative -2 penalty unless you wait a certain period of time. This would apply to spell research as well.

 

Another way to really make him think is to say "Okay, it takes a week and 100 g.p. worth of materials to research this spell, and if you fail the time and money are lost and you have to start over."

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

 

Sorry, wouldn't this be easier as a Charged Multipower (see Shadowpup's post on Aliesters Magical Stuff.)

 

Which is why I suggested it. Thanks for the nod btw.

 

In the end it's all up to you Mr. GM

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Ok, looks like I've gotta rein in this racehorse...

My morning espresso occasionally gets my brain going too fast.

 

Dammit' date=' [b']Fool[/b], what happened to simple? I liked simple. I was good with simple. I was even able to explain simple to others (my personal litmus test; if I can answer their questions and confer comprehension, I've got it down). Don't make me bust out my iron Athame on you.

 

But this isn't about simple, this is about me mastering a system. And I will be G-d D****d if I'm not going to do that.

 

*calmly rolls up his sleeves, focusing* You know, tragically, I enjoy this sort of thing. Okay.

 

No worries... lets do it!

 

Sorry, wouldn't this be easier as a Charged Multipower (see Shadowpup's post on Aliesters Magical Stuff.) I may be utterly missing the mark - which happens to my rookie a** - but this to me sounds like an over complicated usage of these abilities, munchkinism aside. Slow this down and enlighten?

Easier? Possibly. I'm not as fond of the charged multipower approach, but its totally do-able. I didn't get into it mainly because it seemed like you had a pretty soild grasp on the idea, hence not much reason for me to give more examples.

I was also avoiding charges for the reason I mentioned earlier... I prefer using the Delayed Effect and/or Trigger plus END Reserve thing because I hate recalculating the cost of a spell in a VPP everytime I want to add another charge. Works fine in the MP example, but becomes a PITA with VPP's.

Observe.... take my Firball example and add 1 Charge (-2) in place of the x2 End cost. Gives the spell an extra (-1 1/2) worth of limits. The spell now costs 6.66 points... 7 points from your VPP pool. But the Limitation for the Charges changes everytime (2 uses would be a -1 1/2 limit, for instance) you memorize another use of the same spell, requiring you to recost the spell for different numbers of uses. Blech.

I prefer the amount of point displacement a spell requires from the VPP to stay the same, no matter how many or how few uses you have memorized. End Reserve + Delayed Effect does that.

 

 

 

So then the general concept that he posted, and I confirmed is correct. The trigger is the mage's final word, and his "target" can be "what I touch" or "whatever's on the wrong end of this finger." This one I've got; and in order to combine Delayed Effect with Trigger you tie them together, but everyone keeps saying one or the other; this or that. Why don't they stack? Did I miss something on the stacking rule for these two?

 

"Get back, demon! This finger's loaded!" Aziraphale: "What the... oh." And then he said a word he almost never said, and vanished. - Paraphrased from the man, Terry Pratchett, Good Omens

Ahh... but as you might have noticed from my Glyph of Barbeque note after the sample Fireball spell, they CAN stack. without many issues even. I'm a huge fan of Triggers, but for personal preference for pre prepared spells I like Delayed effect better.

My Galdor-vitki, on the other hand, had Trigger on virtually every spell he had... He would carve a rune, while chanting the rune, and red it, then the Rune would be in place until whatever was supposed to trigger it did so. His main spell was a 4d6 Aid (+1/4 to any one power of a set list , the list being based on what runestaves he knew) with a Variable Trigger (+1/2) with a limit on the trigger that each Runestave had a distinct trigger.

Thus a runestave for making a weapon fatal to the Undead would be an Aid to HKA, only versus the Undead, triggered when first striking undead flesh.

But I digress.

Suffice to say... triggers are quite acceptable as we've talked about, and I demonstrated withe the second Fireball example, but because the number of Triggered spells you can have ready are effectively unlimited, and the fact that they are literally a 0-phase action to trigger can make your mages a bit superheroish. They'll be able to pop of a couple of spells before someone could complete a swordstroke against them. I have some issues with this. Limitations can solve some of these problems, but they'll have to be custom ones.. Conditional or Limited Power limits for the most part.

Triggers work best, IMO, for things like Runes, Gylphs, Wards, scrolls, potions and the like.

All the slotting has made my head spin, and that's partially because when I think 'slot' I go straight back to d20, which is grossly limited in what it allows casters to do in a given day; in HERO, I don't give a whit if they mem multiple instances of the same spell, it's their mana, they can do with it as they please, but you're also HRing the slot concept. I humbly request you slow that down as well, and start over. Less chains, more safe words.

Ok... lets see if I can simplify my explanation.

Most heroic level games limit the number of spells you can have active at one time. These are usually called slots, or active slots. Call it Maximum Active Spells, if you're allergic to the word Slot

The usual Formula is INT/5, thus encouraging mages to have a high intelligence. Thus a 20 INT mage could have 4 spells active at one time. Every time he casts a spell, it takes an active slot. Instant spells also require a slot, tho it is immediately freed up again as soon as the spell fires. Delayed Effect spells are considered to be active, in effect halfway cast, until they are released, and thus take up a slot each. So your 20 INT mage could have a total of 4 spells either running, prepared with delayed effect, or cast like powers. There are a variety of ways to increase your number of slots. FH recommends adding a new type "prepared slots" in addition to active slots. Prepared slots can only be used to hold Delayed Effect Spells. So if, in your campaign, you allow a magic user to have twice as many preperation slots as active slots, the Int 20 Mage will have 4 "slots" he can use to store spells, keep active spells running, or cast spells without Delayed effect. He will also have another 8 "preperated Spell slots" that are used only to hold Delayed Effect Spells... when he activates one of these spells, it then occupies one of his active slots, while freeing up one the Prepared slot it previously occupied.

My reccomendation is to use a Talent, Mastery, at around 5 points per level, to create these Prepared slots.. with each level of mastery giving you prepared slots equal to your base active slots. Thus, a magically inclined rogue with a 20 INT but no Mastery could have 4 spells running or stored... no more. A Mage with the same INT but 2 levels of mastery could have the same 4 spells running or stored, but would also be able to store 8 additional spells.

These slots aren't restricted to any particular spell or level... if you have the poower for it, you could load up entirely on your best attack spell(s) and be a walking artillery platform ifr you wanted.

Make more sense this time?

 

An example.

Bob the Thamaturgist wants to go adventuring. He has 2 levels of mastery, and a 25 INT. He whips up a smogashboad of his favorite adventuring spells (all purchased with delayed effect, so he doesn't need to tote his spell book around, just his bag of spell components). He has 5 (int/5) Active Spell slots available and 10 ( INT/5 x2 {from 2 levels of mastery}) Prepared Slots. Rather than leaving any of his active slots open for spell casting, he uses all his active slots for spells he plans to cast as soon as he reaches the Dungeon of Doom ... Sheild, Infravision, Glyph of Don't You Dare Steal My Godsdammed Horse... etc. His prepared slots he fills with a combonation of attack spells ( a couple of Fireballs, a Cone of Cold, a few Take That You Feinds, Strength of Mighty Strengthliness, etc) He now has a5 deyaled effect spells ready for adventuring. Because they are all delayed effect, and his spell book is a Casting/Memorizing only Focus limit, he doesn't need to bring along his book... it can stay chained up in his tower library. When he goes to give a proper farewell to his wife, he realizes that his "Absentminded" disad has come into play... he can't remember where the @$#& he left the key to the chastity belt. So he heads back to his sanctum to Summon a Demon of Knowlegde to tell him where he put his keys. Because he has his spellbook in place, he can take the 20 minutes and cast the spell straight from the book... in fact, he doesn't have this spell purchased with Delayed Effect... He HAS to cast it from the book, thus preventing him from using it in the dungeon and pi$$ing off the GM by constantly asking stupid questions. He realizes that he can't cast the spell because all his active slots are full, so he has to let go of one of the spells in an Active Slot and dissipate it. Having done so, he now has an active slot that will allow him to cast the spell. HE does so, and finds his keys. He decides not to memorize anoher spell, so he will have an open active slot incase he needs to cast anopther spell unexpectedly.

Besides... his wife is waiting.

 

 

I thought I got yelled at for doing a free-standing END reserve build? Argh... now you're simply attaching an END Reserve (modded) to a VPP (spell book) and assigning slots based on stat math, yes? I'll have to read it a few times to grep all the mechanics, but do I have the gist? You appear to be using a similar assigned END mechanic to the one I had previously suggested; it works best in a free standing build, and allows the caster to consume as much END as he likes, but caps him out based on (X) where (X) was a piece of math I hadn't figured out yet. That's why your VPP variant works for me, and was subsequently swiped.

Heck... I did't yell at you for it... If you'll reveiw back a ways you'll see that I suggested the same thing early on. I think that your grasp of the interplay between END reserves, VPP's, spells, MP's, charges and the like is getting better tho, so your early attempts to grasp the "End Reserve build" confused people.

What I did with that END reserve build was similar to the Old School D&D 2nd edition common modification of taking the total number of spell levels available to a MU and using them like mana points, where you could memorize any spell you "know" as many times as you'd like, and each memorization would consume as many "mana points" as the level of the spell.

Basically, the structure I just assembled limits the amount of magic you have available in 3 ways...

#1) How many spell formulas can you keep in your head at one time?

(Allocating the Pool of the VPP)

#2) How many spells can you keep active in your head?

(Active and Prepared Spell slots)

3#) How much magic power can you raise without having to have a lie down?

(Endurance Reserve)

 

 

I know for a fact I can't decipher all of this without rewriting it, but the more I read through each function the more sense it's making for me. An improvement over yesterday morning, when I was ready to start crying.

 

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

Other than the 11+endx2 thing, which I find a bit odd, you're on the right track. It'd do it by the Book... Inventor Skill (Defined as Arcane research), INT based (9+ INT/5 base), 3/2 cost, -1 to roll per 10 Active points, usualy best performed with lots of bonuses from extra time, good equipment (the magical Laboratory), complimentary skill rolls (Quoth, your familiar raven giving you advice) and the like. I probably set the base research time around a day, and require some fairly expensive research materials, but it really depends on the spell, and how creative the player is.

 

 

OAF Bulky Spell Book - I hadn't considered an OAF' date=' because I'm using a prepare/cast model, not a "Hold my book like a tool and get smacked" model. Only 1/2, but applied to the control cost it's still dirt cheap.[/quote']

That was the whole idea behind using Delayed Effect... if you want to cast spells straight from the book without storing them first, you're gonna be doing the "Hold my book like a tool and get smacked" thing. Rember, Padawan... Storing Limitations versus Release Limitations.

The Big Book 'o Magic is only needed to Store the Spells. Rest of the time It can live at home or in a saddlebag.

 

 

Variable Limits Must Equal -1 or more - that's a good way of expressing it; then it's -1' date=' and if over, great, but has to be -1 to go into the book. Niff![/quote']

Yeah, I've liked Variable Limits from the moment they appeared, and you understand it fine.

Nothjing to see here, move along...

 

Bleh. RSR. It's enough they need a to hit roll; I don't like making people roll twice to generate the effect' date=' that's a little too random. Urban? Yes. I think, more importantly, that everything should have one roll associated with it. Therefore a Summon forces a roll, despite it not "hitting" anything.[/quote']

I've never had any problems with requiring two rolls, and I'm a big fan of Mages using RSR... it makes them feel more like mages and less like superbeings with inherent powers. There is always the option to make it easier by making attack spells only take RSR at the -1/20 active level, thus making the casting roll less of an issue. Of course, a lot of my non mage cgharacters have abilities that RSR too... most of the Feat style Talents in my games take RSR, so the warrior doing his Followthrough attack would have to make a RSR "Battle Feats" power skill roll, or the Rouge using his Deadly Blow "Sneak Attack" might have to make a RSR Stealth roll, same as the mage would have to make a casting roll.

*shrugs* i

ts a stylistic point, not a particularily vital one.

 

 

Now I need to reread the Skill section' date=' but if I have that right, then I've found a way to really punish my caster and make him think before he builds spells. The question becomes how do I keep him from simply "buying up" the skill and retrying every time he fails? There'd need to be a time cap on that. More fuel for cranial consumption.[/quote']

well, with Delayed Effect Spells, idf the Skill roll is flubbed, the spell is lost. So you'd have to rememorize the spell. Thus putting a bit of fear and loathing into the equation. Adding Side Effects adds a LOT more fear and loathing. They don't always have to be "boom, you're hurt" side effects either. One I've used a lot are side effects that either inflict Disads or affect Long Term Endurance. Heres a good one... Magic is warping the laws of reality to your advantage, to make the universe do what you command. The power is already spent, and expended at the release when you attempt the skill roll. So what happens to the fabric of existance if you screw up the formula and release that power wrong? How about Side Effects: Unluck as an instant effect... if a magic roll is missed the caster immediately gferts hit with one roll of about 5d6 unluck. If he's lucky, nothing will happen.... but if the magic cathes tyhe right paradox, it'll do something BAD to him.... up to "metorites falling out of a clear sky on his head bad".

Onr thing that ain't strictly book legal but I've always allowed is to let mages take Skill levels that mix up comabt and noncombat applications... Like a 5 pont "Magery" level that could add to either MAgic Skill, Spell Reasreach or be used as a CSL with magic OCV's. Up it to around 8 points if you want it to also apply to DCV.

What?

 

Where's the tea?

 

That was nothing more than a cost summary of the common things you'd need to purchase to play a decent mage, based on the exmples I'd given in previous posts for costs 9all except the skill cost, which was straight from the book)

44 points: VPP example from my post

5 points: Example End Reserve

11 points: Magic Skill Base 3pts, +4 to skill:+8 points. roll assumes a 20 int.

5 points: Mastery Talent, level 1, apprentice (suggeted several pages back)

--------

= 65 points

Easy eh?

Have a cuppa and take a nice lie down... you're almost there

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

A couple of things to note about the Delayed Effect Advantage:

 

1) The base version is +1/4 Advantage, and that lets you ready/stack a certain number of spells beforehand (suggested limits are INT/5, a total amount of Active Points, or a number like 6). For very +1/4 Advantage beyond that, the limit doubles. So a +3/4 Delayed Effect on a spell would let you store 4 times whatever the base limit is, or say 24 of them if the starting limit is 6 for the +1/4 version in that world.

 

2) END is used at the time of preparation, not the time of release, and so are any Limitations like RSR or Gestures. When the power is released, then you are free to target it and make attack rolls. You are at full DCV and the release takes a half-phase action. I suppose you could add additional Limitations upon the time of release. Restrainable seems like a good one to use, to show that the spellcaster needs his hands free.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

A couple of things to note about the Delayed Effect Advantage:

 

1) The base version is +1/4 Advantage, and that lets you ready/stack a certain number of spells beforehand (suggested limits are INT/5, a total amount of Active Points, or a number like 6). For very +1/4 Advantage beyond that, the limit doubles. So a +3/4 Delayed Effect on a spell would let you store 4 times whatever the base limit is, or say 24 of them if the starting limit is 6 for the +1/4 version in that world.

 

2) END is used at the time of preparation, not the time of release, and so are any Limitations like RSR or Gestures. When the power is released, then you are free to target it and make attack rolls. You are at full DCV and the release takes a half-phase action. I suppose you could add additional Limitations upon the time of release. Restrainable seems like a good one to use, to show that the spellcaster needs his hands free.

 

Lest the issue be further confused, a couple of quick notes on the above...

#1) in order to take advantage of the doubling of the available slots, it's stated both in FREd and in FH that iyou have to pay the doubled cost on all the powers you weant to stack together. So if you want double the slots and have full flexibility, you have to up the advantage on all your Delayed Effect Spells to +1/2. If you store even one spell that only has D.E. at the +1/4 level, you loose the ability to use all the other slots.

Hence why I use other methods of increasing the slots.

 

#2) FH discusses the idea of Casting versus Release limitations and END costs on pages 125 & 126 in the section on Delayed Effect. The default from from the rulebook is far more "superheroish"... using the by the book version would give you much more Merlin of Amber style hung spells... not always a bad thing, but not the classic FRPG model.

[Markdoc]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The thing with delayed effect and trigger is not that they can't stack - they can - but they are different things.

 

A triggered power is prepared in advance and goes off when the trigger condition is met. That's it.

 

A delayed effect spell is prepared in advance and goes off when you want it to.

 

You could have a spell which combined both. Glyph of warding is a good example - you have it delayed, so that you can cast it - whammo - and then it goes off when someone crosses it (trigger) - whenever that is.

 

You could - if you wanted - build a fireball the same way, so that you have it racked up (Dealyed Effect) and then it goes off (trigger) when you point you finger and flick some bat guano. But why would you? You're effectively applying two advantages to do the same thing. Trigger would be just as good (prepare in advance, flick bat guano to trigger) as delayed effect (Prepare in advance, use as required).

 

cheers, Mark