The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Actually' date=' that's what I did, which is how I wound up with my initial solution. Hence the grand irony of the thing; I [i']did [/i]think about what I wanted to do, and reasoned backwards based on my current understanding (albeit new) of the rules. The only thing I really wanted to "keep" from d20 were Metamagic (which is partially covered in Fantasy Hero) and the idea of designated spells and slots per day.

 

Part of the math I dismissed because it was already obvious to me; Gestures, Incantations, and OAFs are already built in, and the Grimoire gives tons of great examples. Druidry, Wizardy, etc. What makes this initial conversion difficult is because there is a specific feel I want to retain. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, in all honesty, I'm looking for a way to represent what I want to do and build a system that does that, exactly. Which is why I used END Reserve to represent that. Spells use END, END that shouldn't be coming from the Wizard themselves.

 

Of course I'm lost on VPPs, I'm new. That's to be expected, but as I noted before, I'm only going to learn by trying and discussing it. So to put everyone at ease (or at least Chris Goodwin) I don't take it as patronizing, any more than someone coming in blind to d20 and saying "How does this work?" should take my comments as patronizing; they don't know, I know. I'm here lookin' for help, and I'm appreciative of all that help, and aware that critiques suck, but are necessary. Now that I've said that.

 

Here's what I want my magic systems to do on a universal boundary.

 

- Spells should be structured individually. Some spells could get better with time, and that would be a perfectly reasonable expenditure of points. It doesn't happen in d20, but I'm not trying to do d20, I'm working within HERO. If a spell starts off as a 1d6 EB with Autofire and targets a Hex, and the player wants to:

 

a) Change the damage

Change the range

c) Mod the autofire

 

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do that. It's anathema to my primary, AD&D based way of thinking, but I'm trying to actively think in terms of HERO, which suggests that points be points, and how they're spent is on the player. So I want to leave that unlocked. A spell's starting structure doesn't have to be its final structure. This is important, and one of the 'new' paths of thinking I'm adopting.

 

- All spells should, initially, require Incant, Gestures, and an OAF (even if it's something simple, like a lump of coal). HERO already builds in better point costs based on difficulty of the OAF, which is perfect. I'm with that.

 

- I like RSR, but I want magic to be somewhat reliable, so while HERO generally suggests using it, I was going to leave it open as an option. I was also considering having it for all spells "5th Level" and higher (on the surface, anything with an Active Cost of >50). I'm still considering this, but it makes sense. Higher level magic is just harder to use.

 

- Subset to RSR; I also considered using RSR, but only applying it to spells that are twice the PCs current applicable skill level. If you have a skill of 8, you don't have to roll for anything with an Active Cost of 40 or less, but this is more complicated than I want to be. I'm listing it here as an example of things I've considered, and unless I did something really clever, will likely discard rather than keep.

 

- I like the idea of Metamagic feats (I thought it was one of the more clever things that they've done) although some will never apply. I want the option open to the PCs. While the cost would be immediately higher, it allows them to retain their spell at its original build if they so desire. However, if they want to make a "permanent" silent spell, that's easy enough. Spend the points, poof.

 

- Faith Based casters (specifically Clerics) should be able to dump out a prepared spell and sub in a Healing spell. Again, I want to keep it because it makes sense to me, rather than any sort of association with d20. I may also allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells as well.

 

- I want a limit on how often Wizards can cast, and a much higher limit for Sorcerors. I'd like Priests to be somewhere in between. I've also considered using ECs for Sorcerors, but admittedly don't know enough about how they work yet.

 

- I do want people to research and design new spells.

 

- I do need a better understanding of the three framework designs; what are the key differences between a VPP & a Multipower? I'll have reread the text by tomorrow morning, but basic guidelines will be good.

 

So there's some basics. Thoughts?

 

You might need to develop seperate Magic Systems for different types of Magic Users -- sounds like you want significant functionality differences between the different sorts.

 

 

 

And as an aside, Metamagic feats are largely meaningless in the HERO System, where better versions of a Spell are just a different Power build.

 

However, if you really want to allow them you could do something along the lines of being permissive with some Naked Power Advantages.

 

You could also look at making custom Talents and just assessing some average value for a particular feat and costing the Talent appropriately. For instance, if a person had the "Silent Spell" Talent, then just say that when the character casts any Spell with Incantations they can ignore the Incantations Lim; in the 150 AP 0-9th model I use for Wizardry this migh factor out like so:

 

Every 15 AP = a Spell Level, and a -1/4 Limitation reduces the cost by 3 points (this isnt true per se when mixed with other Limitations, but we'll assume a "clean" / idealized state).

 

At 150 AP it will save 30 points so we'll start with that as the max possible cost and work down.

 

Most characters wont have 150 Pool in their VPP and in fact may never attain it. So for most of their career, if not all, they wouldnt benefit from 30 points worth of Lim buy off. Plus, most Spells are not 150 AP; the vast majority of Spells would not need 30 points of buy off. Further, not all Spells have Incantations. On the other hand, this buy off is able to be applied to numerous Spells, not just a single Power. Further, Incantations can be Complex or Througout which is more Lim points.

 

Weighing all that in the balance, I'd call it a 10 point Talent. It's pretty powerful, but not insanely so. If presented with the option of this Talent, +10 INT, +1 Overall Level, +1 SPD, or Defensive Manuever IV it would be tough to chose between them, based on the character. At 15 points it would be too expensive, and at 5 points its too cheap.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Hey Nightshade, thanks for the post & the input! To respond directly:

 

- I can certainly see where using a recovering END Reserve for Sorcerors makes sense, and I'm leaning in that direction. My original model (see post one) was to use an END reserve for everyone, and have the END pre-spent across spells (another way of doing the prep/time thing). Then if necessary, allowing casters to cast directly from their books, although you offer up some groovy variations on this.

 

- Priests are the weird ones, because I'd like to break them from the mold of "Divine Wizard" and do something genuinely different with them. Get all rebellious on all y'all. For one, I've never actually liked the Priest model. In AD&D, they were healing batteries who had to mem heals, or they were useless. In d20, they're healing batteries who are generally afraid to chuck spells because they might need a heal and won't have it. That's also pretty weak.

 

I'd like to build a Priest model that does the following:

 

- Represents a direct connection with their Deity. This may mean turning undead. It may not. If you aren't playing a Sun God, or an agent of Death (Death as a Force, vs. Death as an Incarna of Evil, which I've never actually agreed with, as it doesn't make any freaking sense) then you might have no interaction with the Undead or need to Turn them in the slightest. So why waste points on the power if it doesn't fit?

 

- d20 has "Special Abilities" listed in their domains based on their Divine Affiliation. Whether it's "+1 Die to Heal Spells" (which would be built as an Aid, 1d6, Only to Healing Spells, X Charges/Day) and the Priest chose to improve it, I think that would be awesome. It's a great concept, but limited by d20's reliance on either leveling, or having all abilities static. I want to throw all of that out. If the PC wants to say "I got closer to G-d, and I'm expanding my Divine Gift" hey, great. Do that.

 

- I do want Priests to focus more on "support" magic, but I want that support magic to be a direct reflection of their Deity, not simply a massive collection of spells, from which they can draw "Domain" spells outside of the normal spell slot selection.

 

- I don't necessarily want them to be slot based, but it may still be the Way To Go in this instance. Priests to me are ... well, they fuel their magic with Prayer. That's their schtick. There are some folk who don't believe in a Deity, but generate the same effect. They can argue the source all day long. This in part represents that some people don't try to explain why they do things, they simply do them. They would be Priests with different flavor text.

 

- ALL PRIESTS have some sort of focus, whether they believe in a deity or not. It can be a "good luck charm," an old photograph of a dead lover that they keep as a reminder of why they're doing what they do, whatever. All Priest magic must begin with the requirement: OAF, Divine Focus. It may use the limitation, Incantations, Gestures, and generally will, but the power of the Divine isn't like Magic; it isn't mathematical. It's Faith, and with enough Faith, you can move mountains.

 

- A Priest may, at time of creation, opt to Channel Heals or Inflicts, but this is a personal choice, and not actually based on alignment. A good person can be vengeful and use their inflict (as an EB) to put someone down. That's reasonable to me.

 

Thoughts?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Killer Shrike: First, thanks for taking the time to help me break some of this down. In response to your post, yes, I absolutely want to break away from certain traditions within d20 and make the classes actually different, and functional from said different. In re: structured levels and buying "Silent Spell" as a 10 point Naked Advantage, that makes total sense to me, actually. Would it apply to all spells, or would it change the cost (via END or some other means) to the final cost of the spell? Your system doesn't use END in the first place, but I don't want them to be able to burn 10 CP and never have to use Incants again, so how would that balance out at the end of the day?

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Another way to approach the VPP option is to use something like a VPP but isn't. Fantasy Hero introduced the concept of buying a Talent that works like a VPP, but it reflects a pool of points that can be allocated to cover the Real Cost of a spell. One of the example systems came up with the notion of Arcana, which reminds me of how D&D does the various schools of magic: Divination, Evocation, etc. What spells the character knows are reflected off the sheet in a separate list of spell write-ups. So say a character only wants to learn Divination magic, then buying a full blown VPP is a bit of overkill. Instead, they have a Talent called Divination which represents their ability to wield spells of the Divination school. That Talent could represent the pure real cost of spells, or the cost with a spell divisor figured in (such as all spells costing a character 1/3 or 1/5 what they cost under standard rules). All the spells normally have Requires A Skill Roll to work. Wizards can purchase all the Arcana spheres they want to learn spells in. Sorcerers may be more limited (max 4 Arcana, their INT/5 or whatever limit you choose). However, the tradeoff that Sorcerers get is that they can purchase a separate Talent (perhaps once for each Arcana) that 'buys off' the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation instead of being able to purchase more Arcana. Wizards have more breadth, but Sorcerers are more focused and don't have to worry about their spells fizzling from a failed skill roll. Wizards could also have the requirement that they have to memorize (and thus allocate) their arcana pools to show what they know for that day. Sorcerers can wield their smaller spell lists in whatever way they like, since they wield magic by sheer force of will, not learning them from books. Clerics could be somewhere in between. Combine that with an END Reserve to show how much mana (or whatever you choose to call the energy that powers magic spells) a spellcaster can channel in a given day, and you have a spellcaster ready to face the world.

 

END Reserves can also have fun Limitations built into them to reflect the spellcasting philosophy. An example would be a Cleric that can only use the REC on their END Reserve by praying (and making Faith skill rolls). A wizard could simply require a spellbook and some reading time (a Focus requirement). A sorcerer could rip the power from their environment by sheer force of will and save it for later use (Requires an EGO-Roll).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Killer Shrike: First' date=' thanks for taking the time to help me break some of this down. In response to your post, yes, I absolutely want to break away from certain traditions within d20 and make the classes actually [i']different[/i], and functional from said different. In re: structured levels and buying "Silent Spell" as a 10 point Naked Advantage, that makes total sense to me, actually. Would it apply to all spells, or would it change the cost (via END or some other means) to the final cost of the spell? Your system doesn't use END in the first place, but I don't want them to be able to burn 10 CP and never have to use Incants again, so how would that balance out at the end of the day?

 

Well, to be clear, its not a NPA; NPA's are used to grant Advantages, not to buy off Limitations. It's more akin to a Limited Buy Off, but with plenty of handwaving. Just think of it as a Custom Talent.

 

The version I posited would apply to all Spells regardless of AP -- thats why I went thru the process of working backwards from the most powerful AP (assumed to be 150) and then discounting it based upon the expected level of use and over all functionality down to 10 points.

 

If using such an ability w/ an END based Magic System, you would have to decide whether it cost END or not. If it did, it could either cost 1 END based on its cost, or 3 END based on the hidden assumption of a 30 point base. Up to you.

 

As far as the cost, different operating assumptions particular to the Magic System you plan to use the ability with would certainly affect the cost. In some Magic Systems its utility might be greater and thus it should cost more, and in other Magic Systems the opposite might be true.

 

So long as you are internally consistent within the same Magic System and the effect corresponds to the cost when taken as a whole, it really doesnt matter.

[Nightshade]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Hey Nightshade, thanks for the post & the input! To respond directly:

 

- I can certainly see where using a recovering END Reserve for Sorcerors makes sense, and I'm leaning in that direction. My original model (see post one) was to use an END reserve for everyone, and have the END pre-spent across spells (another way of doing the prep/time thing). Then if necessary, allowing casters to cast directly from their books, although you offer up some groovy variations on this.

 

- Priests are the weird ones, because I'd like to break them from the mold of "Divine Wizard" and do something genuinely different with them. Get all rebellious on all y'all. For one, I've never actually liked the Priest model. In AD&D, they were healing batteries who had to mem heals, or they were useless. In d20, they're healing batteries who are generally afraid to chuck spells because they might need a heal and won't have it. That's also pretty weak.

 

I'd like to build a Priest model that does the following:

 

- Represents a direct connection with their Deity. This may mean turning undead. It may not. If you aren't playing a Sun God, or an agent of Death (Death as a Force, vs. Death as an Incarna of Evil, which I've never actually agreed with, as it doesn't make any freaking sense) then you might have no interaction with the Undead or need to Turn them in the slightest. So why waste points on the power if it doesn't fit?

 

- d20 has "Special Abilities" listed in their domains based on their Divine Affiliation. Whether it's "+1 Die to Heal Spells" (which would be built as an Aid, 1d6, Only to Healing Spells, X Charges/Day) and the Priest chose to improve it, I think that would be awesome. It's a great concept, but limited by d20's reliance on either leveling, or having all abilities static. I want to throw all of that out. If the PC wants to say "I got closer to G-d, and I'm expanding my Divine Gift" hey, great. Do that.

 

- I do want Priests to focus more on "support" magic, but I want that support magic to be a direct reflection of their Deity, not simply a massive collection of spells, from which they can draw "Domain" spells outside of the normal spell slot selection.

 

- I don't necessarily want them to be slot based, but it may still be the Way To Go in this instance. Priests to me are ... well, they fuel their magic with Prayer. That's their schtick. There are some folk who don't believe in a Deity, but generate the same effect. They can argue the source all day long. This in part represents that some people don't try to explain why they do things, they simply do them. They would be Priests with different flavor text.

 

- ALL PRIESTS have some sort of focus, whether they believe in a deity or not. It can be a "good luck charm," an old photograph of a dead lover that they keep as a reminder of why they're doing what they do, whatever. All Priest magic must begin with the requirement: OAF, Divine Focus. It may use the limitation, Incantations, Gestures, and generally will, but the power of the Divine isn't like Magic; it isn't mathematical. It's Faith, and with enough Faith, you can move mountains.

 

- A Priest may, at time of creation, opt to Channel Heals or Inflicts, but this is a personal choice, and not actually based on alignment. A good person can be vengeful and use their inflict (as an EB) to put someone down. That's reasonable to me.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ok, I think I have it now.

 

First, for someone not familiar with the system, VPP's can be tough. I don't use them in my game specifically because my players can't handle them. To me, the framework has a stop sign for a reason. To me, HERO used delayed effect specifically to do what you are looking for, so that's what I'd use. If you want your spells to be cheaper, do what they did in the Turakian age and divide the spell total cost by some number.

 

As for your priests, I would do the following:

 

1. No END reserve for them. They pay with their own endurance. Rituals often exhausted the priests performing them.

 

2. Ditch the Faith skill. Faith isn't learned. It is felt. It simply is. Therefore, no effect requires a skill roll.

 

3. All spells should require extra time, incantations (calling to their gods for aid, etc.), foci, and any other limitations that make sense for their particular religion. You may want to increase the end cost to make it so that they can't necessarily cast a lot of spells in any particular encounter.

 

4. Priests have access to only certain effects (spell list) based upon their priesthood. So, the sun god has a different spell list than the god of war, which is different than the plant god and the weather god. While there may be some overlap, each god has only their own spheres of influence. You can do that many different ways (spheres of influence, effect lists for every god, domains as well as general).

 

5. Gods require specific rituals, have specific rules, codes of behavior, and the like. Perhaps you simulate that with a dependence (do this stuff or you lose your spells), a psych lim, or a spell limitation (must perform services to the god).

 

Hope this helps!

 

Nightshade

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Just a question...

 

How come you don't just make your spell casters buy each spell separately? Each spell could be bought with Charges X/day limiting how many times each could be cast. This avoids the mess that VPPs might cause.

 

Multipowers with Charges on the pool means that you can only use any spell or combinations of spells X times per day.

 

Charges cost no END so your idea of not having the spell casters spend END still holds.

 

----

 

For faith or divine based magic you could require an Activation Roll - The god/s may or may not be listening at the time. You can give penalties or bonuses to the roll if the spell is in tune with the gods teachings.

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think Thia is interested in the whole "working with what you got" aspect of pre-assigning spells, which is why charges don't work exactly like how Thia wants them to. Charges can be put on a Multipower as a whole, for example, but they would still amount to the character being able to cast whatever-whenever as long as they have Charges. (Unless delayed effect is also put into the mix, requiring the charges to be pre-assigned each day amongst the pool.)

 

I agree with Faith based casting requiring an activation roll as opposed to a skill roll, the gods are unpredictable at best and there needs to be some random factor in there. However, the GM might allow for bonuses to that roll based on some other factors such as situation, quality of prayer, acts of pennance performed by the PC, etc. Activation Rolls also allow for such fun things as the character getting a minus to their activation roll as they do things their god might not agree with. (Acruing "sin penalties".) Then they have to perform tasks or missions to purify themselves and restore the balance.

 

Rob

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Why does there have to be some "randomness" involved? What is intrinsically wrong with a style of magic that ALWAYS works?

 

Question assumptions like that -- arbitrary precepts like that lead to arbitrary solutions.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Well, I've read through the thread, but in bits and peices, so forgive me if I rehash anything already said. 3 12 hour days in a row have kinda shot my concentration.

 

An alternative to the VPP model and using charges was touched on earlier... delayed effect. Added together with significant amounts of extra time, it forms a good suite for D&D style wizards, without neccesarily forcing wizards to be D&D clones. Trigger and Delayed effect can also work well to make a coherent magic system with a lot of the good feel and less of the suck.

 

The big issue with using Delayed Effect is the number of "Slots" you have available to keep powers active (or "hung"). My prefered method is INT/5 Slots, with a pair of Talents designed to alter the total available slots.

Lets call the first talent "Mastery". It decreases the Int divisor by 1 per level, to a maximum of 4 levels making slots = INT. Perhaps name each level for a bit of color... Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster.

I'm thinking 5 points per level. Maybe 10, depending on your game and how rare you want wizards to be.

The second talent could be called...I dunno.. "Understanding" . Just extra INT bought with a limit "only to affect magic memorization"... around a -1 to -2 limit, in my book. This is also a great way to make rolemaster style "spell adders" (like the Ioun stones in D&D, too for that matter, that let you have an extra spell)... just slap it in an independent focus.

 

End can be handled in a number of fashions... An END reserve could be used easily, and if you really wnt to stick to a D&D flavor, then the Reserve can be your OAF Spellbook, with the END cost of spells roughly equalling their level... thus limiting the total amount of power you can use in a single 'memorization" session...you may be able to hold 10 spells in mind, but if your Fireball costs 10 END and you only have a 50 point reserve you'll only be able to hang 5 of them, whereas you can fill up on 2 END Magic Missles all day long.

 

Bam. One rough and ready version of Wizardry from D&D in FH, without going super complicated. if you want to encourage more spells, you might consider using a cost divisor like Turkanian Age or you'll find that you won't ever have to worry about mages getting out of hand... in 50 xp or so most Fighter types will OWN them. With a good build, full cost spells usually run between 3-8 points each, sometimes more, and magic users will have a rough time getting lots of diversity, unless they get tricky with Variable SFX, Variable Advantages and the like. An option might be to start at full price, but tie a divisor to the Master Talent, so your rouge with a couple of spells has to pay full price, while your dedicated and experienced Archmage can add to his spell book on a regular basis. Probably how I'd do it, although I'd then CERTAINLY bump up the cost to 10 per level.

 

Sorcerrers, I'd probably do as Frameworks, either VPP's or MP's. Once again... I'd probably make the Control Cost a Talent, thus reflecting the "you've got it or you don't" aspect of being born a sourceror Put whatever limits on it you want your campaign to reflect... I don't know the 3rd ed D&D sorcerers well enough to be abble to come up with a clever mirror image for you. If I was doing a natural talent syle magic, I'd go with a VPP, but with a control cost not bound to the AP of the VPP (something thats been brough up as an option on these boards quite a few times). Thus you could have a 40 point "Magic Pool" to allocate (to pick a number at random), but your AP limit would be based on how much "Control cost" you bought as the Sorcerer talent... if say, the Sorcerer talent is built as "VPP control (Base cost 1pt per 2 AP), Requires a Skill Roll(-1/2), Conditional Limit: all spells cost 1 LTE per 10 end used from End Reserve(-1/2), Variable Limit -2 (-1)"

Built like this, 5 points gets you a limit of 30 AP on spells in your VPP. Different versions of the talent could reflect greater mastery, as the Variable Limit gets bought off, thus freeing up the sorcerrer from little concerns like Side Effects, gestures and the like.

Thus to buy a sorcerer, you need to lash out for a Pool (how much magic you can get going at one time), a Talent (How powerful you can make each effect) , an End Reserve (How much magical power you can raise without resting), and a Skill (Power Skill: Sorceror)

Expensive but potentially quite nasty.

 

Preists I'll ponder some more, but as you can tell I'm fond of the Talent Route.

Of the top of my head I'd say that they should, like paladins, have Powers more than actual spells, with granted miracles associated with the gods sphere. Of course, I'm an old Runequest player...

This is where I'd go with Charges, recoverable but possibly difficult to recover... anything from simply praying to performing some special rites to doing your gods will before your own. Add in the possibility of using Favors (like in Valdoran Age), or possibly even Contacts to represent things closer to full on Divine intervention. Thus you can have some "simple" miracles that can be performed by any member of the Clergy of that god (a R/L example would be transubstantiation, assuming for the moment that it actually transforms the bread and wine... this is NOT the place to debate THAT ) and require simple prayer to recover, to full on opening the red sea, pillars of salt kinda stuff if the cause is right, the priest is holy enough, the god approves, and the favor is big enough

Speaking of which... I don't see a problem with a Faith power skill. Probably based on EGO. its pretty obvious that some people feel their faith a lot stronger than others, and from my perspective as a praticing pagan, any doubt in your mind can certainly eliminate any ability you have to channel energy. (Once again... this isn't the place to debate it... just pretend, for purposes of illustrating our fantasy game, that it ALL works). I'd make any number of other skills complimentary to this, and would be more than willing to asess occasional penalties. It's a lot easier to feel your faith on Holy ground, in perfect reflective conditions and reminders of your belief than it is, say, kneeling on a muddy battlefeild holding the body of a dying child, where the followings of your god might seem cold compared to letting the child die. Of course, these are the situations that make for good roleplaying, and the chance to do the whole "by accepting and having faith, my god gives me the miracle I was asking for before'" scene, which is a cheap shot but can be good drama

Of course the last time I played out that scene in a game was in aforementioned Runequest game. Humakt isn't a particularly good god to be looking for help from, but when it came to enacting vengance, hooooooo boy!

[Lucius]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think that you are doing just fine. If you like D&D wizards and sorcerers, then use them!

 

Here's how I'd do it:

 

Wizard:

 

All spells have the delayed effect (+1/4) advantage with the number of slots they have is equal to their total base character points + XP/10 (to simulate levels) or total slots equal to their INT/3 or even a spell progession if you really wanted to get wacky. Then, build all of their spells with 1, 5, or 20 minute casting times (to make them cheaper). They then "memorize" their spell as the casting time. I'd probably do it with the 5 minute casting time, so then they can memorize 12 spells in an hour. The spells could be fueled off an endurance reserve or bought with zero endurance with uncontrolled (with the duration based upon how much they make their skill roll by).

 

Nightshade

 

THANK YOU!

 

You weren't the last, but as far as I saw the first, to bring up Delayed Effect.

 

Thia, are you paying attention?

 

Delayed Effect is what you probably want for Wizards.

 

Now, you DO have to decide how to "limit" the number of Effects the Wizard can have. There are some good suggestions above, but I have two more.

 

Make it a talent. Decide that for each X number of points, you get one "slot" for Delayed Effect spells.

 

To get a bit more complex, and also bring in a "spell level" feel; say that instead of the slots being one for each power, make it one for, say, Y Active Points. So if Y=25, a 50 Active Point spell requires TWO slots.

 

Or you could base it off Real Points, if you like.

 

 

Now, as for priests.

 

Don't make it a Faith Skill. Make it a CONTACT with the Deity. As far as I know, "Requires a Skill Roll" can use a Contact - why not? They can use Luck.

 

Speaking of luck, priests should have it if they have their Deity's favor.

 

If you have a Priest skill, make it PRE based. Being an effective priest is more of a "social skill" than anything else, I think. And you can use PRE based skills to improve Presence Attacks - and there is your Turn Undead. You can also make the Undead "Vulnerable" to presence attacks from priests - or from the right kind of priests anyway. And I'd say even "automaton" undead can be presence attacked in this specific circumstance.

 

Healing - nothing in particular AT ALL links healing specifically to priesthood, except that D&D did it that way. But still, many priests will want to be able to heal. You can make a quasi-magickal healing power by buying Healing, OAF (herbs or medicines or the like) and requires First Aid roll. Let anybody who can justify it buy it.

 

Now, Miracles. You can say they are Favors, possibly. But if you are going to give ANYONE a VPP, it should be priests. It fits them better than anyone else. Just put "No Conscious Control" on the Control Cost. You DON'T get to decide what your powers are, or when or how they work - the Deity does, you're just the vessel. In fact, if you are looking to cut the costs on this type of character, let them buy ONLY the Control Cost and say the actual Pool belongs to the God. But in that case, perhaps the COntrol Cost shouldn't have the No Conscious Control limit - it's already limited because the actual pool points "belong" to Someone Else, who determines how they are used. Make up some appropriate miracles for the Gods in your campaign, and let priests use them when, and only when, it seems appropriate.

 

They also can, of course, buy some powers "straight up" to represent their link with the Divine. But you should probably only let that come with experience.

 

I think they may have an END reserve too, but the RECovery should also be "No Conscious Control." They get RECoveries for doing things appropriate to their God.

 

Oh, and a Contact or Favor from a God should probably be more expensive than the normal prices listed in the book. Remember to account for the fact that in many cases, it's an "organization" contact. Both because it may be a "servitor" who is usually in touch - like your personal guardian angel, or genius, or something - and if the Deity is in a pantheon, the other Gods count as contacts of your contact.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Incantation to summon a palindromedary: Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Oh, and a Contact or Favor from a God should probably be more expensive than the normal prices listed in the book. Remember to account for the fact that in many cases, it's an "organization" contact. Both because it may be a "servitor" who is usually in touch - like your personal guardian angel, or genius, or something - and if the Deity is in a pantheon, the other Gods count as contacts of your contact.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Incantation to summon a palindromedary: Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas

Well said... we are of a like mind here.

 

Do you only get the attention of your personal genuis if you have a Contact: Bob?

[Lucius]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Well said... we are of a like mind here.

 

Do you only get the attention of your personal genuis if you have a Contact: Bob?

 

My Lord Fool, I'm sure you know as well as I do that "genius" in this context means a kind of guardian spirit or minor personal deity - almost certainly the direct inspiration for the Christian belief in a guardian angel, in fact.

 

 

Oh. Wait.

 

 

 

You're talking about the SUBgenius. I just realized that this second.

 

 

 

 

 

And I just realized something else.....

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests we talk privately.

[Markdoc]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Here's a simple (and therefore probably faulty) riff off the delayed effect suggestion.

 

If you require delayed effect for your Wizards (but not Sorcerors) that does two things. 1. it makes the wizard's spells cheaper and 2. forces wizards to assign them in advance.

 

Combine this with extra time on wizard spells - the 5 minutes suggested is good.

 

If you use a VPP, this cheapens the control cost on the pool, for wizards, but not by much. What it does do is cheapen - considerably - the cost of each spell, so a Wizard will have more spells in his VPP than a sorceror, but has to set them up in advance, given similar points invested.

 

However, a possibly simpler approach is to use Multipowers instead. They have the advantage that they are significantly cheaper to buy. VPPs cost a lot. The payoff with a VPP is flexibility, but what you propose to do limits that flexibility, making it kind of unappealing for players.

 

If you go for a multi, instead of Delayed Effect (which personally I don't much like) simply require wizards to take Extra Time (5 minutes) and Trigger on their spells. Don't require that for sorcerors. Require all spells to be on charges. This will (at least initially) reduce the cost. So for example, one wizard could have the limitation "6 charges" on all his spells - in which case the multi reserve takes the same limitation (which reduces its price). This means you can use any slot, in any combination up to 6 times. BUT! Because of the 5 minutes prep time on wizard spells, you would actually want to set them up in advance: meaning a wizard could either take 5 minutes and cast any spell he wants (reading it from his book, say) OR he could use an already prepped spell via trigger. A sorceror with the same kind of multi could just use his spells without Prep, but he'll have fewer spells, or weaker spells or both, because he won't get the big price break on Extra Time. Another, more powerful wizard might have 12 charges on all his spells (but he's going to pay more to have more spells).

 

Using this system, a wizard would be able to cast an already prepped spell. But then he'd have to study up and reset the trigger before he could use it again, unless he had already prepped multiple uses.

 

Does that make sense?

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Good morning!

 

Nope! Doesn't make sense! This is in large part because y'all are way more familiar with Delayed Effect than I am, although it may be the way to go. It at least sounds, on the surface, like something that can work. However, that's a whole new concept I'm totally unfamiliar with (I read the whole book, but I didn't retain the whole book) so if someone wants to enlighten me, and operate on the assumption I don't yet know what all y'all are talkin' about, that'd be groovy.

 

I did do a write up last night of what I want Wizardry to be, and a possible build for it. I'm not sure if it's too limited, not limited enough, what. So I'll post the mess here, and let y'all suss it out. "And a band of demons joined in, and it sounded somethin' like this:"

 

Wizardy Model (v.0.5)

 

Premise/Challenge: to build a persistent wizardy model that reflects both the training required to learn how to wield magic, and the limited reserve of ability that a Wizard has available to cast that magic.

 

Initial Concepts: Because of the roots of d20, multiple methods of 'simulating' that system were taken into consideration initially, and while some ideas (pre designated slots, meta magic) were kept, many more were pitched (fixed slots by level, spells are set, and cannot be altered, etc.).

 

Primary Build: To combine the necessity of a Skill/Talent/Perquisite with the ability to learn & effectively wield, and learn, magic. Using an END Reserve, it would be a simple matter of having the END pre-assigned to reflect memorized spells. Wizards could then, later on, ditch their END and replace it, but the END only refreshes after 8 hours of rest.

 

I ditched VPPs, not because I didn't get them, because the combined cost of the usable points, plus the Control Cost, didn't add up to what I wanted; the entire thing felt entirely too awkward, and I wanted something simpler. I grasp VPPs now (I spent an hour reviewing it) and I see how they're used, but they weren't appropriate to this. In this setting, magic isn't a "power" in and of itself, it's a Skill. The ability to scribe spells into a book, prepare them and cast them is the heart of the ability.

 

Foundation Rules (v.0.5):

 

Spells are learned in one of two ways. Either with a direct CP buy of 'researched' spells to reflect a Wizards ongoing research, or through the study of scrolls, tomes, grimoires & other ancient texts. Spells researched in this fashion require a Spell Craft (INT) check. Every 10 Active Points in a Spell assess a +1 penalty to the check.

 

This mechanic (10 pts.) is used throughout this magic system for the sheer sake of simplicity and ease of digestion among new players.

 

The skill, Spell Craft, is required for anyone trained to use magic as a Wizard. It is the direct amount of knowledge you possess, and your knowledge is a direct reflection of your ability to cast. Secondly, all Wizards must have the Talent: "Trained Caster", which is their END Reserve. A wizard's END Reserve may never be higher than his Skill: Spell Craft x 10. i.e., if you have five ranks in Spell Craft, you would have an END Reserve of 50.

 

Common Spell Structures/Notes on Spells:

 

Any adder or advantage can be attached to any spell. A spell a PC researched and gained through those channels doesn't cost CP (it counts as equipment for purposes of a Heroic setting), but any changes the PC wants to make to the spell does cost CP. Spells are not permanently set; because Magic is Science, the Wizard can futz with their formulae as much as they like, but all changes cost CP. A wizard could "scale back" a spell, but cannot recover CP from doing so.

 

Magic requires effort and focus. All spells, at their initial creation, must include the following disadvantages:

 

Concentration (1/2) -1/2 DCV while casting

OAF - Spell Component (varies)

 

All common spell disads still apply. Any spell seen in the Grimoire which uses RSR should replace RSR with Concentration. If it already has both, recalculate the spell without RSR, unless the caster specifically wishes to include it.

 

There is no Power Framework for Spells in this model; spells are purchased individually, and each spell (right now) costs 1/2 of its Real Cost. ###THERE MAY BE MATH HERE I'M UNAWARE OF AS TO WHY IT WOULD BE 1/3, IF SO, PLEASE EXPLAIN###

 

Spells are classified into Colleges. Each College is part of the University of Magic, a campaign specific entity and major political power. Each College can be learned as a separate skill (Divination, Abjuration, Conjuration, etc.) Because Magic as a Science is always being advanced, there are multiple permutations on some themes, and colleges are being introduced and discarded on a regular basis. The primary Colleges are referred to in Elder Texts as the Major & Minor Arcana.

 

Spell Stunts: In order to Push a spell beyond its listed limits, or use a Magic Talent on a spell from a school, the caster must make a skill roll based on the college the spell is from, or take a -4 penalty for using Spell Craft directly. Spell Craft can be used to aid this skill roll per the standard rules.

 

Wizard's Push: Another element I wanted to include was the ability of a Wizard to Push their normal limits; I'd encountered the idea in the stat breakdowns in the book, and ran with it. A Wizard's push is very limited, but can be of great use.

 

A Wizard Push requires the following:

 

- A Skill Roll within the college the spell is from, per the above rules.

 

- Double the END Cost for the spell; if the Wizard has END available in their Reserve, they may use it for the Push. Any END not available must come from the Wizard directly.

 

- A Wizard is Concentrating during a Push, and is at 1/2 DCV. I may change this to full Concentration (0 DCV) but haven't decided yet; I don't want the power to be worthless, and being completely vulnerable might render it pretty much useless.

 

- A spell requires Extra Time equal to one half phase per END required to fuel it. This is counted past the initial half phase normally associated with casting the spell. (Hence, a spell with 42 Active Points would cost 4 END, and take 2.5 Phases to cast, with the spell completing at the end of the 5th Half Phase). Per the standard rules, any action a Wizard could take with the remaining Half Phase after casting a spell is available to him.

 

Sample Breakdown: Using this method, a starting Wizard may be built as such.

 

Costs: Spell Craft, 5 ranks, 15 pts. END Reserve, 3 points/50 END (only applies to magic (-1/2), refreshes only after 8 hours rest (simple) (-1/4)).

 

Spells Available, 30 points.

 

60 active, 14 real, cost 7, END 6 (to mem each time)

23 / 6 / 3 / 2

90 / 20 / 10 / 9

10 / 2 / 1 / 1

30 / 8 / 4 / 3

19 / 5 / 3 / 2

 

Using this minor sample, the final numbers are 232 Active Points in spells, 55 Real Points, 28 CP, and 24 END to prepare each spell once. That seemed to work out to me, but I'm not good with long-term math.

 

I'm also still working out targeting and what have you; it makes sense to use Spell Craft (or a Specialist Skill) to act as the To Hit roll, but I'm not certain of that yet. It may put too much emphasis on the Spell Craft roll, although using SER I could argue that bulking the skill up should directly reflect on the targeting roll, but again, that's the sort of thing I'm turning to y'all for.

 

I'm also considering capping Active Power of a spell at the Skill Level x 10, and that would also make sense, but I haven't made up my mind on that yet.

 

So there's the initial write up. I hope you find it at least moderately helpful in what you're doing, and I will await feedback with bated breath.

 

Good morning!

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Why does there have to be some "randomness" involved? What is intrinsically wrong with a style of magic that ALWAYS works?

 

Question assumptions like that -- arbitrary precepts like that lead to arbitrary solutions.

 

Perhaps saying the spells "have" to have a random element might be overstating the case, but especially in the case of channeled magic I strongly believe it should. Gods have bad days too, and putting the random roll in there for clerical magic represents a whole lot of outside factors that might be involved. (Same reason we roll for skills rather than always assuming success.)

 

If you want the spells to always work in your world, go right ahead, but I like watching my players choose when to use their spells carefully, hesitating on whether to use that precious spell at the right moment because it might fail them; I like them going out of their way to pray to their gods and be creative to try to get spell roll bonuses to offset the randomness; and I like watching them try to work off accrued "sin" penalties and turn it into self-motivated adventures and roleplay.

 

But if you want to go "okay,it works, he's healed", that's good too.

 

Rob

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Ultrarob - I had actually never once considered the idea of a magic system that had the chance of failing, believe it or not. The thought had never occured to me; magic works, that's what it does. However, you bring up an excellent point; we roll to hit, we roll to bake bread, we roll to fish, why not roll to cast?

 

I don't disagree with it, but it seems as though both sides are right, but it's dependent on the setting and the build of the world. My world structure is built to be low magic compared to High Fantasy, but the stuff works. In a more Sci-Fi/Urban Fantasy setting (my personal favorite is Urban, actually) I would almost automatically go for the skill roll, because it makes sense to me in that setting, specifically.

 

As far as your prayers not being answered? Building a Sin Bin is actually a really nifty concept; rather than 'revoking' powers, actions which are outside of favor with the Deity are punished by penalizing actions the Faithful takes until enough 'proper' actions are done, or until Atonement is made.

 

*glances side to side* SWIPE.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Primary Build: To combine the necessity of a Skill/Talent/Perquisite with the ability to learn & effectively wield, and learn, magic. Using an END Reserve, it would be a simple matter of having the END pre-assigned to reflect memorized spells. Wizards could then, later on, ditch their END and replace it, but the END only refreshes after 8 hours of rest.

 

This is not how END works nor what END is used for. If you want to pre-assign points, use a Multipower or VPP.

 

I ditched VPPs, not because I didn't get them, because the combined cost of the usable points, plus the Control Cost, didn't add up to what I wanted; the entire thing felt entirely too awkward, and I wanted something simpler. I grasp VPPs now (I spent an hour reviewing it) and I see how they're used, but they weren't appropriate to this. In this setting, magic isn't a "power" in and of itself, it's a Skill. The ability to scribe spells into a book, prepare them and cast them is the heart of the ability.

 

Power and Skill are just terminology. Magic is spells. I'll give you two quick examples: you can buy Clinging (a Power) and call it "super climbing skill". You can buy Lockpicking (a Skill) and call it "a Knock spell".

 

Really, when you buy stuff, you're not buying "what it is" but "what it does". That's what reasoning from effect is all about.

[Nightshade]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

An explanation of delayed effect:

 

Powers are bought with some sort of preparation required (usually extra time), and that preparation is done before hand. You slot your powers (sometimes referred to as "stacking your rack") by performing some of the work ahead of time (spending the extra time, in this case, but using foci, gestures, incantations, and the like can be included, as well). But the power doesn't go off or actually get used until the character wants it to. By performing the last word, the last gesture, the whatever you want, the power is used, using up that slot.

 

I'd suggest looking at the full description in the power advantages section of the book.

 

How many slots they get is up to you as GM. They have advantages that can be applied in order to get more slots as time goes on. An example spell system that works like this is Alchemy in the FH Grimiore.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Nightshade

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

However, the GM might allow for bonuses to that roll based on some other factors such as situation, quality of prayer, acts of pennance performed by the PC, etc. Activation Rolls also allow for such fun things as the character getting a minus to their activation roll as they do things their god might not agree with. (Acruing "sin penalties".) Then they have to perform tasks or missions to purify themselves and restore the balance.

 

Rob

 

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Delayed Effect than I am' date=' although it may be the way to go. It at least sounds, on the surface, like something that can work. However, that's a whole new concept I'm totally unfamiliar with (I read the whole book, but I didn't [i']retain[/i] the whole book) so if someone wants to enlighten me, and operate on the assumption I don't yet know what all y'all are talkin' about, that'd be groovy.

 

Nightshade did a good job explaining that one.

 

 

Wizardy Model (v.0.5)

 

Premise/Challenge: to build a persistent wizardy model that reflects both the training required to learn how to wield magic, and the limited reserve of ability that a Wizard has available to cast that magic.

 

Initial Concepts: Because of the roots of d20, multiple methods of 'simulating' that system were taken into consideration initially, and while some ideas (pre designated slots, meta magic) were kept, many more were pitched (fixed slots by level, spells are set, and cannot be altered, etc.).

 

To each their own. I can see it from both sides but prefer my magic to resemble the forms I have seen in movies or read in books.

Primary Build: To combine the necessity of a Skill/Talent/Perquisite with the ability to learn & effectively wield, and learn, magic. Using an END Reserve, it would be a simple matter of having the END pre-assigned to reflect memorized spells. Wizards could then, later on, ditch their END and replace it, but the END only refreshes after 8 hours of rest.

 

 

See Nightshade's post. Delayed Effect is more what you're looking for.

 

 

I ditched VPPs, not because I didn't get them,

 

 

I don't get them either.

 

 

 

Spells are learned in one of two ways. Either with a direct CP buy of 'researched' spells to reflect a Wizards ongoing research, or through the study of scrolls, tomes, grimoires & other ancient texts. Spells researched in this fashion require a Spell Craft (INT) check. Every 10 Active Points in a Spell assess a - 1 penalty to the check.

 

Sure, I can see that.

 

 

This mechanic (10 pts.) is used throughout this magic system for the sheer sake of simplicity and ease of digestion among new players.

 

huh?

 

 

The skill, Spell Craft, is required for anyone trained to use magic as a Wizard. It is the direct amount of knowledge you possess, and your knowledge is a direct reflection of your ability to cast. Secondly, all Wizards must have the Talent: "Trained Caster", which is their END Reserve. A wizard's END Reserve may never be higher than his Skill: Spell Craft x 10. i.e., if you have five ranks in Spell Craft, you would have an END Reserve of 50.

 

Spell Craft x 10 might (maybe) confuse your players. Hero doesn't really do things in ranks. Mainly because most skills are based on a Stat so "Rank 1" for one character won't always be "Rank 1" for another.

 

example:

 

Mage 1 has INT 3, Spell Craft 14- (11pts) rank 5?

Mage 2 has INT 20, Spell Craft 14- (5 pts) rank 2?

 

Now, why would Mage 1 be better at learning spells and have access to a much large magic ability when he's a near idiot?

 

 

Magic requires effort and focus. All spells, at their initial creation, must include the following disadvantages:

 

Concentration (1/2) -1/2 DCV while casting

OAF - Spell Component (varies)

 

There is no Power Framework for Spells in this model; spells are purchased individually, and each spell (right now) costs 1/2 of its Real Cost. ###THERE MAY BE MATH HERE I'M UNAWARE OF AS TO WHY IT WOULD BE 1/3, IF SO, PLEASE EXPLAIN###

 

It is common to add the limitation "Spell" (-1 or -1/2) instead of just dividing by X. The limitation represents the inability of spells to do certain Power Tricks (Spreading a Blast, Pushing, etc)

 

 

Sample Breakdown: Using this method, a starting Wizard may be built as such.

 

Costs: Spell Craft, 5 ranks, 15 pts. END Reserve, 3 points/50 END (only applies to magic (-1/2), refreshes only after 8 hours rest (simple) (-1/4)).

 

Spells Available, 30 points.

 

60 active, 14 real, cost 7, END 6 (to mem each time)

23 / 6 / 3 / 2

90 / 20 / 10 / 9

10 / 2 / 1 / 1

30 / 8 / 4 / 3

19 / 5 / 3 / 2

 

Using this minor sample, the final numbers are 232 Active Points in spells, 55 Real Points, 28 CP, and 24 END to prepare each spell once. That seemed to work out to me, but I'm not good with long-term math.

 

I'm dumb so I didn't understand that at all.

 

I'm also still working out targeting and what have you; it makes sense to use Spell Craft (or a Specialist Skill) to act as the To Hit roll, but I'm not certain of that yet. It may put too much emphasis on the Spell Craft roll, although using SER I could argue that bulking the skill up should directly reflect on the targeting roll, but again, that's the sort of thing I'm turning to y'all for.

 

You keep OCV/DCV the same and don't mess with it. If you want your spell casters to get a bonus to hit with their spells they can buy CSLs (Combat Skill Levels) Only with Spells, I think those are 5 pts per.

 

I'm also considering capping Active Power of a spell at the Skill Level x 10, and that would also make sense, but I haven't made up my mind on that yet.

 

See above. I use INT x 2 as my max Active Point Limit. It adds some little incentive to increase INT for mages.

 

Hope you have a wonderful day

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Another advantage of using the Delayed Effect model... you get the best of both worlds in regards to the "do wizards need a skill?" question... as Limitations on Delayed Effect spells can be defined to effect as either casting or release limitations, you can have RSR on a spell, but still have the spell be more or less effortless to release.... the skill is involved in actually casting the spell and setting up the release triggers...this isn't strictly "by the book" legal, as RSR is usually a Release Limitation (not being actually all that limiting as a storing limitation), but it's your call as GM... I'm inclined to allow it, either at half value or if there is some lasting penalty for flubbing the RSR that has effects that will last a significant length of time (Side Effects can work for this if used carefully... perhaps a Long Term Endurance loss, or the loss of the ability to use that particular spell until the wizard has had a chance to study why it failed).

 

When I get the chance I may try and stat up a solidified version of my Delayed Effect magic system (which is REALLY similar to Lucius' suggestions as well) including a couple of sample spells. One thing that I intended to mention in my last post, butthat slipped my mind... be wary of the level you scale spells at, at least at base levels. Remember that Wizards can buy up the effects of spells with experience. That 6d6 AOE RKA is NASTY.... I know you want a fireball to be fearsome, but your mages will be quite competitive without going for that kind of power scale. Its also gonna be hideously expensive. If you don't want your mages to outsrtip the non magic characters, one of your best controls is to make magic effective without being too over the top... if your mage can sqeeze out more damage than dragonfire, he's gonna turn into artillery, and the combat dynamic will wind up looking like a high level 2nd edition D&D game... the fighters are there to hold the line and protect the mage while he vaporizes everything.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: I see what you're saying, that my way isn't how END is used. But is there a reason it can't be used that way? I reasoned from effect; if all Spells cost END... and the END is provided by training and experience, rather than an internal reserve... therefore the wizard doesn't provide END... then they would need a separate power source to represent that.

 

While I recognize your argument, "That's not what it's for" - I still don't see a reason why I can't use it that way, if I so choose and it works for my system. It's END, and END is fuel. I'm just representing that fuel differently mechanically than someone else might, or may be considered the simplest & best way. I thought it was rather elegant, really.

 

Shadowpup: Ranks/Levels - this is due to my limited grip on HERO, and I'll look into it. You have a point. What I was trying to express was simply, you should have a roll of 11- vs. the spell rank that you've achieved competence in. I'll see if I can adjust that, as you have a good point; someone with a 22 INT is going to be better than someone with a 14 INT, for a lot less work.

 

I conferred with Steve and he also said what you did: OCV no touchy. Which is good advice, I must admit. it was a consideration based on my current grip, which is constantly improving. Thanks for taking the time to post through.

 

See above. I use INT x 2 as my max Active Point Limit. It adds some little incentive to increase INT for mages

 

Ah, that may do the trick as well. Thanks!

 

The worst part is I read VPP, I finally started to grasp VPP, and then I realized that the problem I was having is that no one was using VPP as written; they had each modified it in their own way, which is totally cool, but the primary reason my eyes were rattling in my head.

 

The Fool: More the Fool I, because I still don't grep Delayed Effect, despite it possibly being the 'most efficient' method available. This is something I clearly have to read up on, because everyone is saying "HEY! THIA! THIS IS YOUR SOLUTION! HUZZAH!" And I feel like the guy who won the lottery, but he himself doesn't know it yet. Everyone else is excited, and I'm just vaguely confused. You could reasonably say that I feel like Arthur Dent.

 

I've entered a whole new world. I'd like some tea. And a nap. The thing I say most often seems to be "What?" I freely associate with a BDSMer with a fetish for the Unseelie and a blazon to represent virility. It's true, you could replace me. Just build a robot that says "What?" and "Where's the tea?" and no one would know the difference.

 

Douglas Adams, RIP.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

 

I've entered a whole new world. I'd like some tea. And a nap. The thing I say most often seems to be "What?" I freely associate with a BDSMer with a fetish for the Unseelie and a blazon to represent virility. It's true, you could replace me. Just build a robot that says "What?" and "Where's the tea?" and no one would know the difference.

 

Douglas Adams, RIP.

ROTFLMFAO

I think that's the best one line description I've ever seen of myself.

 

seriously.. read up on Delayed Effect and Trigger, especially in the Advantages section of the FH book (pg 125-126 & 128) as well as in 5ER. I'll bring a notepad and scribble some ideas if I have any spare time at my rehersal tonight and whip you up a few examples... I'm almost sure you'll be happy with the Delayed Effect Approach once you get your head wrapped around the way it works

 

And yeah... I miss Mr. Adams as well. He was one of the greats.

 

Postscript: I played a 4th Edition FH mage using a "straight cost, no discounts" Delayed Effect style of magic, so I got rather good at using it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

The Fool: I'm glad that I got a laugh out of you for that one. You've been astoundingly helpful and I thought you'd appreciate the humor. I will read up on Delayed Effect and Trigger tonight if I get the chance. We game on Tuesday's and tonight is the "primary" campaign, next week is my Ravenloft campaign. The first one to get switched is likely going to be the primary game, because that has more need for change. I'm running Ravenloft somewhat close to RAW and trying to hand out treasure, etc. It's going very well, actually, and I'm honestly surprised.

 

I've never seen people run from more encounters in my life, though. However, Ravenloft is part of what started the problem from my initial thread, saying, basically, "If this creature hits you, you be f'd." That just doesn't seem fair to me, so I actively chose to swing at the Paladin (hey, I've got a soft heart) and he survived - but by a die roll. There was no defense for the attack initially.

 

Trigger, Delayed Effect. If I say it enough times I should be able to retain it. I'm warning y'all, though, you might be stuck just shaking your fist at my END Reserve build. Y'all been warned.

 

However. If what you're suggesting will actually work, then obviously I want to go with the most elegant structure, so I'm willing to go into any available possibility. Trigger, Delayed Effect (and yes, Lucius, I am listening). Be pretty pointless to sit here and post if I weren't willing to take the criticism and ideas, now wouldn't it? Counter intuitive that.

 

"What?"

 

"Where's the tea?"