The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Markdoc: Holy cats. For whatever reason, for the first time, that did actually make sense. Don't know what was different this time than last time, but I did, miraculously, "get it."

 

w00t.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Personally I avoid Delayed Effect because I do not like the fact that once a character passes a certain threshold all of their Powers using it have to be recalculated with a new modifier value. That kind of instability makes it very difficult to make generically reusable material, and can also bleed into game play.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Killer Shrike: Fair enough, this seems like one of those things where everyone has an opinion. My next reasonable question then is this:

 

Per your original build, you gutted the standard VPP structure, yes? Could you explain (in small words, if possible) why you went that route, specifically, rather than an open ended Spell Route or something similar? And do you cost out the VPP in the same way? i.e., to have a 60 point VPP I would need to burn 60 and then 30?

 

Please explain!

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Thia, I've been thinking over some suggestions for your magic system. Please forgive me if I am rehashing old terrain.

 

1) One of the most basic decisions to make is whether you are going to have spells purchased and paid for individually by characters, or if you are going to go with some sort of power framework to do this, presumably one that will let you swap out spells like a VPP or a VPP-like Talent (explained later). The spells themselves will be recorded off the sheet, so to speak.

• To purchase each spell individually, you write up the spell as a Power with Advantages and Limitations, and then you can make the PC pay that cost, or take an additional math step and use a cost divider to get to the cost for the character: 1/2, 1/3, etc. By using Delayed Effect and Trigger in the spell's build, you can charge the spell for release at the beginning of the day. You can then choose one of two ways to provide the power: Charges (1 or more, each one representing a casting of the spell and would be part of the Limitations affecting the cost of the spell) or an END Reserve (which I suppose you could pre-assign 1 or more castings worth of END to each spell, but it is an unorthodox approach).
  
• You can also purchase each spell as a type of Skill Roll: Fireball 13-, Detect Magic 12-, etc. The costs to the player will be similar to the method just above. The spells are written up off the character sheet, and the caster's success at casting them is determined by rolling the Skill Roll for the known spell, modified by the Active Points of the spell writeup or as an unmodified roll.
  
• You can purchase a pool of points that can be assigned to spells, which is then allocated at the beginning of the day (or whenever the caster changes his spell list). The straight rules would be to do this by a type of VPP, but you are limited by the RAW to a maximum Active Points in a spell of the pool points in the VPP. By building each spell as a 1 Charge slot in the VPP, it reduces the amount of points it takes from the pool. If you desire to cast the spell more than once, simply change to 2 or more Charges and recalculate how many points memorizing it would take from the pool. An alternative to a VPP is a spell Talent (which works like a VPP in that it is a floating pool of points). This can be as simple as a single pool (Magic) or several pools that are limited to certain schools (a pool for Divination Magic and a separate one for Elemental Magic, for example). By using a cost divider (as mentioned above), it extends the pool points a bit. Each pool of points could run off a single Magic skill, or they could have a corresponding skill (ie a Necromantic Talent for the spell points and a Necromantic Magic skill roll). You can power the spells by means of an END Reserve as well, and pre-assign 1 or more castings worth of END to a spell.
  

2) Once you have made the choice of purchased spells or a floating pool that can be changed, then the choice is magic as a learned skill or a type of superpower.

• By choosing magic as a skill, one that can be learned like baking, then there is a chance for a skill failure. Spells would be written up with RSR.
  
• BY choosing the superpower route, magic is an inherent gift. Clerical magic could be written up this way, and instead of RSR, a cleric could have a Limitation on their magic like "Limited by god's purposes"
  

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: I see what you're saying' date=' that my way isn't how END is used. But is there a reason it [i']can't[/i] be used that way? I reasoned from effect; if all Spells cost END... and the END is provided by training and experience, rather than an internal reserve... therefore the wizard doesn't provide END... then they would need a separate power source to represent that.

 

While I recognize your argument, "That's not what it's for" - I still don't see a reason why I can't use it that way, if I so choose and it works for my system. It's END, and END is fuel. I'm just representing that fuel differently mechanically than someone else might, or may be considered the simplest & best way. I thought it was rather elegant, really.

 

Okay. From a meta standpoint, END is a resource that you spend to be able to use Powers, and its purpose is to keep you from just churning out Powers all day. It's intended as a pay as you go sort of thing; use it now and do your thing. There's no rule that says you can't use END the way you describe, and especially with an END Reserve it probably won't break too much as far as interaction with the rest of the system.

 

But there are constructs that more closely model what you've described: the ability to allocate points to the use of a power beforehand, and have them sit there until they're used. To wit, Multipower and Variable Power Pool. It doesn't even take much to get them to act exactly the way you want; you can easily limit them to allocating points once a day, or only when you're well rested, or any other condition you want to set, and you can set each slot to only work once per day, or to automatically deallocate the points when used. Combine these; let's say, you can only allocate the points once a day, and they automatically deallocate when used. Add those to either a Multipower or a VPP, doesn't matter. Is there a reason that (or another combination of these) wouldn't work for you?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think Thia is looking for two things. One, something that models closely to D&D style magic. And second, possibly more important, something his players can understand. It's one thing to sit down and read the entire fifth edition book on the flight from Detroit to Manila (and over the course of the first week in the Philippines), and it's another entirely different thing to just sit down and play the game. It's taken now 55 posts for just Thia to understand it (no offense this is tricky stuff), imagine how hard it is for casual gamers.

 

One thing I might suggest Thia is playing a quick Champions campaign. Of all the genres, it's the easiest one to grasp. Let the players make their characters and use the powers straight out of the book. This might give them a feel for the game after just three or four sessions. Then, they'll be ready to tackle Fantasy Hero, which is far more complex. I'm doing a similar thing now, training my friends with Star Hero which is definitely tougher than Champions but not nearly as tough as Fantasy Hero, though we have played D&D for almost 3 years now.

 

Good luck, have fun.

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Maybe use a Multipower with Charges.

 

GroundRule that the Charges have to be allocated to the slots during times of study or some such.

 

That way, no END need be calculated (it really isn't necessary for his build of magic), and the number of Charges/Casts is already set and allocated beforehand.

 

The Charges recover after some rest and need to be allocated again the next day. Done deal.

[Old Man]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Oh yeah, for whatever the more flexible mages are, they either don't have to pre-allocated their charges or they work off a normal END Reserve or use their own END to power their spells.

 

I'm in support of magic making the caster tired. Even then it doesn't happen often, they just have to take a phase to Recover instead of fireballing.

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

One thing I might suggest Thia is playing a quick Champions campaign. Of all the genres, it's the easiest one to grasp. Let the players make their characters and use the powers straight out of the book.

 

Good luck, have fun.

 

I completely agree with this for anyone breaking in their group to HERO, I did it with one of my groups too. They had no HERO experience, so before I hit them with a big bad WuXia Fantasy Game I ran a simple quick superhero type campaign first. Worked like a charm, when the time came for the Fantasy Hero game the hardcore types who'd play the wizards had already half-memorized HERO, and the casual types who wanted to play warriors knew the combat system pretty well.

 

I should mention I did a dirty trick, however, when I ran my superhero game I made a point of giving them all low-level variable power pools they could use to do extra tricks. This encouraged them to play with the system and not just accept what was on their sheet.

 

Rob

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Oh (and this will teach Rob to reply to messages right after waking up), I should add, however, there is a downside to starting your group off with a Champions level HERO game. They will learn the game at whatever power level you set them at, so if they learn to play 350 point characters and then you ask them to play 150 pointers it will require a bit of a mental shift for them to deal with the lower numbers. If you were just playing Brick-Or the Super and his 16D6 punch, being asked to play Warr-Ior the Strong with his 4D6 punch is a bit of a...downer. (It wasn't much of a problem for me because I was asking them to go from 150pt Supers to 250point WuXia heros)

 

If your goal is to warm them up to low-level Fantasy, maybe a modern or science fiction game at the same point level as your Fantasy game might be a better warm-up. A nice short campaign of hunting monsters in Florida, battling the forces of COBRAAAAA...cough...cough...cough...., or fighting Space Pirates who just took over a space cruise liner would let them get to know the system pretty quickly.

 

Rob

[Erkenfresh]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I'd also like to add that you can run a Champions game without the Champions source book. While it provides some nice details, if you've ever picked up a comic book or watched X-Men or Batman the cartoons, you'll be in good shape. I'd highly recommend getting Hero Designer as that will make the character creation process much easier. It took about three hours for my three friends to make characters with the books but the software is a breeze.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Killer Shrike: Fair enough, this seems like one of those things where everyone has an opinion. My next reasonable question then is this:

 

Per your original build, you gutted the standard VPP structure, yes? Could you explain (in small words, if possible) why you went that route, specifically, rather than an open ended Spell Route or something similar? And do you cost out the VPP in the same way? i.e., to have a 60 point VPP I would need to burn 60 and then 30?

 

Please explain!

 

Im really not sure what you mean by this. Please clarify?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Oh (and this will teach Rob to reply to messages right after waking up), I should add, however, there is a downside to starting your group off with a Champions level HERO game. They will learn the game at whatever power level you set them at, so if they learn to play 350 point characters and then you ask them to play 150 pointers it will require a bit of a mental shift for them to deal with the lower numbers. If you were just playing Brick-Or the Super and his 16D6 punch, being asked to play Warr-Ior the Strong with his 4D6 punch is a bit of a...downer. (It wasn't much of a problem for me because I was asking them to go from 150pt Supers to 250point WuXia heros)

 

If your goal is to warm them up to low-level Fantasy, maybe a modern or science fiction game at the same point level as your Fantasy game might be a better warm-up. A nice short campaign of hunting monsters in Florida, battling the forces of COBRAAAAA...cough...cough...cough...., or fighting Space Pirates who just took over a space cruise liner would let them get to know the system pretty quickly.

 

Rob

 

An alternative I've used before, and will use again, is to make up some pregen characters a little bit below the powerlevel I intend to run the players at, and give them a theme... like group of the kings guard out on patrol with a journeyman mage along for support. Basically run a one or two session "Teaser" or "preveiw" game introducing the setting and giving a first hint to the threat that will eventually become the main campaign. Don't have to worry too much about them screwing up or getting their characters killed, and later on you can recycle the (survivng) characters as NPC's that the players will feel some fondness towards from having played them.

[UltraRob]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

An alternative I've used before' date=' and will use again, is to make up some pregen characters a little bit below the powerlevel I intend to run the players at, and give them a theme... like group of the kings guard out on patrol with a journeyman mage along for support. Basically run a one or two session "Teaser" or "preveiw" game introducing the setting and giving a first hint to the threat that will eventually become the main campaign. Don't have to worry too much about them screwing up or getting their characters killed, and later on you can recycle the (survivng) characters as NPC's that the players will feel some fondness towards from having played them.[/quote']

 

Hey, that's pretty cool. So they're the guys in the "introduction" chapter of most stories who usually end up dead by the end of the chapter at the hands of the big bad guy or his heralds to show how badass he is. An excellent way to jump start a campaign!

 

Rob

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Good morning, and thanks to all of you for patience and willingness to muddle through this, although I'm surprised at exactly how many different ways everyone has of approaching the same problem. For those of you who can be repped: represent. For those of you who can't: I've, eh, well... repped you already.

 

I'll go somewhat in order of the new posts here.

 

Steve: Your name was used in vain last night. Somehow... someway... one of the PCs decided that naming the Paladin's horse "Steve" made absolute and total sense. Then "Steve" was assigned a whole new, "spends too much time at Cheers" sort of personality. The Paladin was non plussed, but amused.

 

No apologies needed; the post and the topic are clearly a strong matter of opinion and everyone has their own take on it, so rehash as necessary. I understand the "skill" thing, but that isn't what I'm going for. I like the idea of RSR, but it doesn't fit with the look & feel of this campaign (although that may change from College to College; for example, I'm of a mind that all summons should Require a Skill Roll, but that's a separate thread. The more I've thought about it, the more I want to enforce RSR, but I also don't want to get into a boxing match with the players on it, either. Separate thread. Moving on.

 

*blink* So... charges = total casts per day, is that the idea here? *smack* "HEY, HEY BOB! BOB, I GOT IT BOB! I (THWACK)" Yep. He got it all right. Then the PC has the option of burning points to up the "charges," or total available casts per day. It's not what I want, but I feel enlightened none the less. A Wizard has flexibility, and forcing them down a path of putting CP into a spell to raise charges which they might not use isn't what I'm going for. The concept is fantastic, and we're using that to represent per day abilities (Paladin Smite, Lay on Hands, possibly Turn Undead, etc.) so there's a place for it, but Wizards aren't it.

 

Spell as skill goes to RSR and, while it could work, it ... sounds awkward? Feels awkward? I read that in FH I think and didn't (personally) like it. No reason, just didn't quite fit. I may revisit it for an Urban Fantasy game, but not this one.

 

Originally Posted by Steve

By building each spell as a 1 Charge slot in the VPP, it reduces the amount of points it takes from the pool. If you desire to cast the spell more than once, simply change to 2 or more Charges and recalculate how many points memorizing it would take from the pool.

 

Say that again, slowly. That sounds like what I'm doing, and would go towards what Chris Goodwin is saying, but we're back to "things I don't get in regards to VPPs." It sounds like you modified the RAW on VPP, which is fine, but you lost me.

 

2) Limited by God's Purpose is a personal favorite of mine and will be violently enforced.

 

Chris Goodwin: I covered some of what you're talking about in the above post to Steve, but to answer your questions additionally:

 

I want magic to be affordable for the mages, but the total amount of spell slinging they do per day to be controlled. Using a 150 pt. model, I don't see how they can afford a pool of a decent size and purchase spells to place in it, even if they sit at the x3 max the Killer Shrike suggested originally. Your last question:

 

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Combine these; let's say, you can only allocate the points once a day, and they automatically deallocate when used. Add those to either a Multipower or a VPP, doesn't matter. Is there a reason that (or another combination of these) wouldn't work for you?

 

I have two responses too: "What? Where's the tea?" and, I was planning on using Multipower to express Sorcery, because with very little effort it is a flowing changing pool with a set base. A VPP is an open pool and you're suggesting we assign limits to it, which goes straight against RAW, and that's part of my consternation. I'm trying to go with the rules as much as possible. With everyone house ruling VPP to make it fit, it's gotten dern confusion. Does that explain some of my reasoning, at least adequately enough for you and Steve to respond and clarify?

 

Erkenfresh: Good morning, and thanks for the input! You actually hit on a problem, i.e., super powers and me don't mesh. I come from the "It looks... superheroey" school. I am going to be running a mini arc about a small group of characters elsewhere in the Empire who have a direct impact on the military unit's story arc, though, to test pieces of the system, so I had considered that! Good advice!

 

Shadowpup: Dammit. What? Multipower... with Charges? I grep multipower (thankfully, that took a while) and I grep 'charges' (also easy, that one was a direct import). Can you extrapolate on how to blend the two into a creamy mocha blend with a hint of peppermint?

 

Ultrarob: On using VPP to power stunt in emergencies: Genius.

 

The Fool: Actually, that concept (you are all unified under X cause/purpose/person, draft characters based on that) is how I start all my campaigns. It's a standing rule to make launching the character easier and giving all PCs commonality.

 

Good morning!

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

*blink* So... charges = total casts per day' date=' is that the idea here? *smack* "HEY, HEY BOB! BOB, I GOT IT BOB! I (THWACK)" Yep. He got it all right. Then the PC has the option of burning points to up the "charges," or total available casts per day. It's not what I want, but I feel enlightened none the less. A Wizard has flexibility, and forcing them down a path of putting CP into a spell to raise charges which they might not use isn't what I'm going for. The concept is fantastic, and we're using that to represent per day abilities (Paladin Smite, Lay on Hands, possibly Turn Undead, etc.) so there's a place for it, but Wizards aren't it.[/quote']

 

Well, if you decide to use a pre-allocated END Reserve to determine how many castings of a spell they can use in a given day, it would work to just buy the spells individually, but I would recommend using some sort of cost divider on each spell. I recommend doing this instead of a Multipower structure, since it does have the advantage that an individual spell could be more powerful than the rest without requiring upping the Multipower pool points. If you went with a VPP or spell pool Talent (see below for more), Charges would be more point efficient in conserving the pool's points and having more spells available through it.

 

Spell as skill goes to RSR and' date=' while it could work, it ... sounds awkward? Feels awkward? I read that in FH I think and didn't (personally) like it. No reason, just didn't quite fit. I may revisit it for an Urban Fantasy game, but not this one.[/quote']

 

No problem. It's simply another way to do RSR, assuming you view magic as a skill, which implies a chance at skill (spell) failure. Rather than buying each spell, and then having a single Magic skill, you have a Magic Skill for each spell instead. Points-wise, I think it is roughly the same cost. It does give the advantage that someone could be really good at a single spell, like Fireball, but not so good at Divination. It lets you structure a character to allow for greater skill in some areas, and less skill in others. Of course, a character could always just go for the same skill roll on every spell they have.

 

Say that again' date=' slowly. That sounds like what I'm doing, and would go towards what [b']Chris Goodwin[/b] is saying, but we're back to "things I don't get in regards to VPPs." It sounds like you modified the RAW on VPP, which is fine, but you lost me.

 

Okay, here goes. In the RAW, a VPP is a pool of points that can be reallocated for different things, and it costs the points in the pool (Pool Points) + the control cost. For example, a 30 point VPP costs 30 points plus 15 for the control cost. You can limit the control cost, but not the pool cost, such as requiring anything done through the pool to have Gestures and Incantations. That would drop the control cost from 15 to 10 (due to a total of -1/2 in Limitations). However, in the RAW, the biggest spell done through the VPP can only have 30 Active Points. KS's method alters that, allowing more Active Points through the VPP. In Fantasy Hero a spell pool Talent is offered as a suggested alternate way to do something like a VPP, only the points in the Talent do not limit the maximum Active Points allowed.

 

So, for example, a wizard has a 20 point spell pool Talent (call it Arcana or whatever). The Talent costs them 20 points, nothing more, but it also can't be limited in any way. It's purely a pool of points that can be used for spells. Our intrepid wizard then looks over his spellbook. Each spell in his spellbook can be written to cost END (which would then require an END Reserve or the expenditure of personal END to cast spells) or they can be built as Charges. A spell written with Gestures, Incantations, an OIF material component of some kind, and 1 Charge is (I believe) a total of -3 in Limitations. If you do it without Charge as a Limitation, it is only -1. If all the wizard's spells have that -3 in Limitations, he can then have one spell of 80 Active Points or multiple spells which total 80 Active Points, but 20 Real Points. If you go the non-Charges way, the maximum drops to 40 Active Points and 20 Real Points. Those Real Points are what uses up the points in the spell pool Talent. Using Charges, a wizard could memorize the spell multiple times (say 4 Charges instead of 1), and that would simply change the Real Cost of that spell and use up more of the spell pool Talent's 20 points. If you go with each spell costing END from a Reserve, the Real Cost would never change, and the wizard would simply allocate more of his END Reserve to cover multiple castings instead.

 

Now, you can also combine the idea of a cost divider (ie each spell takes it's Real Cost after all Advantages and Limitations are calculated and then dividing it by 2, 3, or whatever) and a spell Talent. This allows more spells for the example wizard to use his 20 point spell pool Talent towards.

 

Does that make better sense now? A spell pool Talent is not in the RAW, but it follows the same logic that the Talents in the book use for their write-ups. It is like a VPP, but it allows more flexibility for a Heroic-level spellcaster, built on a smaller budget of points than a Superhero would use.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Originally Posted by Steve

If all the wizard's spells have that -3 in Limitations, he can then have one spell of 80 Active Points or multiple spells which total 80 Active Points, but 20 Real Points. If you go the non-Charges way, the maximum drops to 40 Active Points and 20 Real Points. Those Real Points are what uses up the points in the spell pool Talent. Using Charges, a wizard could memorize the spell multiple times (say 4 Charges instead of 1), and that would simply change the Real Cost of that spell and use up more of the spell pool Talent's 20 points. If you go with each spell costing END from a Reserve, the Real Cost would never change, and the wizard would simply allocate more of his END Reserve to cover multiple castings instead.

 

So... close... I followed everything up to this specific point. I have no problem using Charges and driving down the cost of the spells (if nothing else it will make my local Wizbang happy, which would be an improvement). I don't grep this:

 

The example VPP would cost 30 outright, clean, with no disads. (20 base/10 Control). As I said, I got this far with VPPs and I was good. I know that in a normal VPP, those 20 points are then allocated to perform "magic tricks" to represent the capability of a caster in a simpler (or less heavily constructed) system. He could take those 20 points and cough up an EB, or Flight, or whatever else he could sink 20 naked points into, without any modifiers on the power. So far, so good.

 

I think what you're saying is that in a Charge system, I would build each spell with: Gestures, Incants, Foci du jour, and a Charge. The charge is costed against the pool, and the pool itself controls the total number of casts per day. This makes spells cheaper, got that. However, under that structure, wouldn't it (I may be missing something, happens) cost the same to slot in a 100 Active spell as a 20 Active spell? That's a disparity that I need corrected, and why I went the original End Reserve route.

 

I also don't want to cap Wizard Spells Known, just Sorceror Spells Known (even if I don't do it this way, it's great for the discussion). You could say that I want the Spells themselves to exist within the framework as individual, uncosted powers. You can have all the spells you want, but you need to slot them in based on total cost. The downside is that if they're costed against END within the VPP, then the VPP has to be bulked up quite a bit to account for all available spells (I think it's about 70 END to roughly emulate a 9th level d20 wizard). And that does, in my world, start making sense.

 

To say another way, that might not confuse anyone: You've got an active Arcana Talent Pool (our modified VPP) of 30 available points. This is going to act as your END reserve for purposes of our discussion (thus removing the original END reserve from my first build). You can purchase spells ad infinitum at the cost determined by the campaign (say 1/3 of the Real Cost) and they become part of the framework. The spells are costed out completely (OIF/Gestures/Incants/Etc.) and then the END required to cast them is slotted into the VPP. Do I have that right?

 

So here's a new question: How does that model compare with what you're saying for Charges, and, secondly, am I at least on the general right track with this so far? I don't see how the charges get worked in and remain balanced.

 

Thanks, Steve!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Say that again' date=' slowly. That sounds like what I'm doing, and would go towards what [b']Chris Goodwin[/b] is saying, but we're back to "things I don't get in regards to VPPs." It sounds like you modified the RAW on VPP, which is fine, but you lost me.

 

I have two responses too: "What? Where's the tea?" and, I was planning on using Multipower to express Sorcery, because with very little effort it is a flowing changing pool with a set base. A VPP is an open pool and you're suggesting we assign limits to it, which goes straight against RAW, and that's part of my consternation. I'm trying to go with the rules as much as possible. With everyone house ruling VPP to make it fit, it's gotten dern confusion. Does that explain some of my reasoning, at least adequately enough for you and Steve to respond and clarify?

 

Okay, yes.

 

Applying Limitations to a Power (or, in this case, a VPP's Control Cost) doesn't mean you're changing the rules or using house rules. (Just for a bit of contrast, using pre-allocated END the way you described in your previous postings is a major house rule.)

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

More specifically: do you work the charges into the cost of the spell (thus driving the Real Cost down) and then assign points in the VPP to the charges? I'm getting there' date=' but I'm still baffled.[/quote']

 

Well, you build the spell using Advantages and Limitations to get a final Real Cost. I don't have my books with me, so I'm not sure of the numbers that the different Charge levels give. Say you build a spell with 60 Active Points (a 4d6 RKA), then use the Limitations Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), OIF (-1/2) and 1 Charge (-2), for a total of -3 in Limitations. The final Real Cost is 15, and that is what gets used up out of the VPP. If you decide you want to cast it more often than once per day, say four times per day, the Charges Limitation drops to a -1 (I think), and the Real Cost is now 20. This would simply represent memorizing it more than once (to use D&D terms).

 

However, to use the RAW, a VPP would need to have a pool of 60 points available to hold this spell, since the Active Point value is 60 (and the VPP would cost 60+30=90, assuming no Limitations). If you go with KS's alternative method for a VPP, I believe you would only need a 20 point VPP, and you could have spells with Active Costs up to 3x the pool's value. A spell pool Talent would also work something like this, based on my understanding of Fantasy Hero, and it's suggestions.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

More specifically: do you work the charges into the cost of the spell (thus driving the Real Cost down) and then assign points in the VPP to the charges? I'm getting there' date=' but I'm still baffled.[/quote']

 

The idea would be that you'd create a bunch of Powers in the VPP with one charge each. Here's an example, which is off the cuff so it may not be particularly imaginative, isn't a recreation of D&D to any decimal places, and I'm not guaranteeing the Limitation values are correct by the book, but at least you can see the numbers and how they all work together. I think all of my math is correct, but if it's not it's my fault, not a fault of the system.

 

Spell Pool. Variable Power Pool: 40 points.

 

Control Cost: 20 Base Points. Advantages: No Skill Roll To Change Pool (+1). 40 Active Points. Limitations: All Powers Have One Charge (-2). All Powers Require Gestures, Incantations, And Focus (-1). Requires Big Bulky Book To Prepare Powers (-1/2). 9 Real Points.

 

Total cost for Spell Pool: 49 Real Points.

 

Let's say you've loaded the following Powers into your VPP:

 

Sleep Spell. 8d6 Mind Control, 40 Base Points. No Advantages; 40 Active Points. Based On CON (-1/4), Single Command: Go To Sleep (-1), One Charge (-2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), OIF Various Bits (-1/2). 8 Real Points.

 

An additional Sleep Spell. 8 Real Points.

 

Fireball. 5d6 Energy Blast, 25 Base Points. Advantages: Explosion (+1/2). 37.5 Active Points. Limitations: One Charge (-2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), OIF Various Bits (-1/2). 9 Real Points.

 

Teleport. 10" Teleport, 4x Noncombat. 25 Base Points. Advantages: Armor Piercing (+1/2). 37.5 Active Points. Limitations: One Charge (-2), Gestures/Incantations/OIF (-1). 9 Real Points.

 

Shield. 10 PD/9 ED Force Field. 19 Base Points. Limitations: One Charge, Continuing (5 minutes) (-1 1/4) (? Don't have book, guessing at value, use this for the sake of argument.) Gest/Incant/OIF (-1). 6 Real Points.

 

This is 100%, by the book, no house rules, modulo any errors in math and modifier values I've made. There is one questionable bit: the pool has All Powers One Charge (-2), and I've made the Shield with Continuing Charges (-1 1/4). I don't recall off the top of my head whether that's legal, but that shouldn't be read as an indictment of the whole process of Variable Power Pools. If it's not legal we can delete or change it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Thanks for the example! I'm still hazy on some of the rules which are driving it, though. I'm closer, ever closer, but still missing some key elements.

 

- Charges have been brought up again. I know that in a VPP, I can assign a max number of usuable points in a given day (needs rest & bulky spell book to reassign points) and that's cool. I'm with that. Do the charges work independently of the pool? In other words, are they representing a "single cast" and then become discarded?

 

- What's the measure for slotting in the spells into the VPP? Real Cost? END? I'm assuming that because of the Charge feature END is removed from the picture, thus the VPP is based against the calc'd Real Cost of the individual spell, so a 49 VPP can hold 49 Real Points worth of spells. Ipso Facto, either KS's "x3" or Steve Long's "Divide all spells by 3 for purchase purposes only" would factor in, thus balancing Spells Known against the VPP, yes?

 

+ It seems that the limit "All Spells Have One Charge" is what's defining the concept of "Spell Book," which is awesome, but I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the spells in the framework then wouldn't receive the benefit of having the disad because it's built into the VPP. Yes, no? Clearly no, but I may be criss-crossing my rules, as well.

 

+ And, as a cap, the limit as to the max power of a spell is enforced by the VPP pool value (in this example, 30). So no spell has over 30 points available in it. Then if the PC wants to improve the VPP, they simply go point by point and buy up the VPP, or is there a stacking effect on the Control Cost? I'm assuming they just improve the VPP.

 

Better? Worse?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Thanks for the example! I'm still hazy on some of the rules which are driving it, though. I'm closer, ever closer, but still missing some key elements.

 

- Charges have been brought up again. I know that in a VPP, I can assign a max number of usuable points in a given day (needs rest & bulky spell book to reassign points) and that's cool. I'm with that. Do the charges work independently of the pool? In other words, are they representing a "single cast" and then become discarded?

 

Correct.

 

- What's the measure for slotting in the spells into the VPP? Real Cost? END?

 

Real Cost.

 

I'm assuming that because of the Charge feature END is removed from the picture,

 

Correct. Edit: And was the reason I used Continuing Charges on the Shield spell.

 

thus the VPP is based against the calc'd Real Cost of the individual spell, so a 49 VPP can hold 49 Real Points worth of spells.

 

If you're going on my example, the pool is 40 points, thus it can hold 40 Real Points worth of spells (if my math is correct, the sample spells I provided add up to 40 Real Points). The Control Cost is separate and doesn't factor into this amount.

 

Ipso Facto, either KS's "x3" or Steve Long's "Divide all spells by 3 for purchase purposes only" would factor in, thus balancing Spells Known against the VPP, yes?

 

KS's x3 does because he explicitly set that up as a function of his magic system (via house rule). I'm not sure about Steve Long's rule there; I think that the reason he did that was that the particular magic system he was creating (Turakian Age?) specifically disallowed power pools.

 

At any rate: if you, as GM, are using the particular rule, and you want it to apply to VPPs, then it would apply.

 

+ It seems that the limit "All Spells Have One Charge" is what's defining the concept of "Spell Book," which is awesome, but I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the spells in the framework then wouldn't receive the benefit of having the disad because it's built into the VPP. Yes, no? Clearly no, but I may be criss-crossing my rules, as well.

 

Here we're taking advantage of the rule that says that if all Powers in a pool share a Limitation, you can apply the Limitation to the whole pool. More specifically, you can set up a Variable Power Pool with a Limitation to the effect that "All Powers In Pool Have Limitation X", in which case you'd apply the Limitation to the Control Cost of the VPP.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I got it backwards then! If the pool has the disad, then everything else must follow the leader, yes?

 

So 40 = 40 real points. I got excited and criss-crossed my numbers; 40, got it. Then the HR of 1/3rd would make sense both for purchases and "spells allowed" to simulate flexibility. Holy cats. I think it finally clicked. Only took... 73 posts and a lot of patience on y'alls part.

 

w00t.

 

Sorceror's I was going to multi-power. I ain't figured out Priests yet. I've got one in the party saying "VPP for spontaneous casting!" which might actually work, given my now infinitely deeper grasp of VPPs. However, I was also seriously considering ECs, which I think could start a whole new discussion, my primary concern being their cost. The example FREd gives suggests a 150 point EC, but considering that Sorcery is very thematic in my campaign, this framework makes excellent sense, and would allow the PC to do things they couldn't otherwise do.

 

Talk about your crash course.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I got it backwards then! If the pool has the disad' date=' then [i']everything else[/i] must follow the leader, yes?

 

Yep!

 

So 40 = 40 real points. I got excited and criss-crossed my numbers; 40, got it. Then the HR of 1/3rd would make sense both for purchases and "spells allowed" to simulate flexibility. Holy cats. I think it finally clicked. Only took... 73 posts and a lot of patience on y'alls part.

 

Well, admittedly there were a lot of people talking it up, and some of us (me included) were talking about different parts, and I realized that concrete powers and numbers on paper would probably be better all around. w00t, indeed!

 

Sorceror's I was going to multi-power. I ain't figured out Priests yet. I've got one in the party saying "VPP for spontaneous casting!" which might actually work, given my now infinitely deeper grasp of VPPs. However, I was also seriously considering ECs, which I think could start a whole new discussion, my primary concern being their cost. The example FREd gives suggests a 150 point EC, but considering that Sorcery is very thematic in my campaign, this framework makes excellent sense, and would allow the PC to do things they couldn't otherwise do.

 

Talk about your crash course.

 

ECs and VPPs are both pretty expensive. Pointwise, Multipower is a far better buy than ECs or VPPs. ECs because to maximize the benefit from them you want to get the Powers as close to the same Active Points as possible (so you end up with, say, five 60 Active Point Powers in a 30 Active Point EC), not to mention the whole Adjustment Powers issue, and VPPs because you can't limit the Pool, only the Control Cost.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Chris Goodwin: Well, it's true and as I've said before, I only learn by doing and talking things through. The advantage being that I almost always get it. Killer Shrike's site is also becoming infinitely more useful now that I've got a better handle on the mechanics side of it.

 

So to improve the VPP, the PC must then spend CP at 1:1 to get a larger pool, thus opening up the option of memming more spells and learning bigger, badder ones, yes? That will get pricey, but such is the cost of fame.

 

I feel like a huge weight has been lifted from my brain. I can now go home and build my Tiefling Racial Package and post it tomorrow morning. Bwa ha ha. Although I don't exactly expect that to generate the same level of drama.