The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

"You create a X point VPP, with an X/2 Control Cost. This confers absolutely no benefit whatsoever, other to grant the ability to learn powers within the VPP. All spells then cost Points." - If that's wrong, that's a good thing.

This is wrong, and it's a good thing.

 

When a character buys a VPP, they can do anything under the sun (assuming their VPP is large enough). The concept behind the spell list is to pare "anything under the sun" down to more in-concept spells for your specific game world or character. If you don't want your fantasy wizards to travel to Alpha Centauri, or Summon up a motorcycle, you have them slap a "Known Spells Only" limitation on the VPP, and then provide them with more appropriate spells to choose from. They don't have to pay for these spells...the spells are simply defined as "Known Spells", and the characters can then adjust their VPP to use those spells.

 

And to get back to a little bit of that old school D&D feel, PC wizards will be on the lookout for new spells that they can study and then define as "Known", so they can get more flexibility out of their VPPs. I realize that this has been pointed out several times, but I felt that with the above clarification (if it is, indeed a clarification), it was worth pointing out again.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Hmm...looks like Amadan and I were on the same wavelength for that first line. Kind of scary, knowing what a freak he is.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Hmm...looks like Amadan and I were on the same wavelength for that first line. Kind of scary' date=' knowing what a freak he is. [/quote']

When the doors of perception are thrown wide, all things will appear as they truely are... infinite.

 

Or something like that

[ghost-angel]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

To further toss out analogies that don't involve rules terminology.

 

The VPP is a pool, like a swimming pool. Big. Empty. possibly blueish.

 

A person has 40 Point pool - they can have up to 40 Real Points out of the swimming pool at a time, place in various sized cups.

 

What the "know" is all that water in the pool. It can be a few inches at the bottom, or full. What they "use" is put into the cups and used at whim.

 

If they want to change out a Power (or spell in this case) they empty one of their cups back into the pool and fill it up with another Power.

 

Thus - when you buy a VPP it "comes with" whatever the heck you want it to. Usually up to GM fiat. What you use at any given time is determined by what you fill your cups up with. You may add more Powers to the pool any time the GM allows you to.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

What they all said.

 

You've paid for all of the Powers you can possibly have in the VPP when you've paid the points for the VPP. You don't pay any additional points for having additional Powers (barring house rules to the contrary). Any Power you can think of, you can have, assuming it fits within the point limits of the pool (i.e. Active Points and remaining Real Points) as well as any other requirements from Limitations or the GM.

[Archon]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Everyone,

 

I've been reading over this thread and I want to congratulate everyone for their very patient efforts to help Thia model the systems that he wants. Now I'm going to stick my oar into the water and see if I can help.

 

Thia,

 

One of your hanging questions was on Elemental Controls. If there was an answer to this, I missed it in the thread. As you seem to work best with concrete examples, let me try this.

 

RP

15 EC - Force Power (15 AP base) (1)

15 a) 6d6 Energy Blast (30 AP, Force Blast)

30 30 str Telekinesis (45 AP, Force Teke)

7 c) Force Field (30 ED), only to stop blaster bolts(-1) (30 AP, Force Shield)

 

(1) All powers must have an AP >= 2 x EC base

(2) The RP value of an EC power may be lower than the EC base value.

 

As a side note, if you apply any limits to the EC base, all powers in the EC must have the same limit applied to it. This same rule applies to Multipowers and it's slots, and on VPPs if the limit would affect a power.

 

Ex.

RP

25 Multipower (50 base), OAF Magic Staff (-1)

2 u 10d6 Energy Blast (50 AP), OAF Magic Staff(-1)

 

Ex.

RP

50 VPP (50 base)

11 Control Cost, Magic only(-1/4), OAF Magic Staff(-1)

 

The Magic only lim is applied to the Control Cost and reduces it's RP value, but is not applied to the powers in the VPP. The OAF Magic Staff lim is applied to the Control Cost AND is applied to all powers in the VPP.

Ex Power in VPP from above

25 10d6 Energy Blast, OAF Magic Staff(-1) (50 AP, 25 RP)

 

This power takes up 25 of the base points in the VPP leaving 25 points for any further powers.

 

You also had a question for what powers are included in the purchase of a VPP. The general answer is that buying a VPP means that you can change the Pool into any combination of power that you can think of with no further spending of CPs.

 

The general idea, used for a VPP that would be similar to your d20 system, is that you would give the mage a Spell Book with X number of predefined spells in it. Through research or adventuring you would allow the mage to add spells to his spell book giving him further versatility.

 

Ex. Wizard Spell VPP

60 VPP (60 RP base)

9 Control Cost,

OAF spell focus defined by spell (-1), (1)

Incantations(-1/4), and Gestures (-1/4), (1)

Must have bulky spellbook to prepare spells (-1/2), (2)

May only prepare spells listed in spellbook (-1) (2)

 

(1) This limit applies to powers in the VPP and the Control Cost

(2) This limit applies to the Control Cost only

 

I'm sure I've added some stuff that's confusing. Goodness knows it took me a long time to figure out VPPs. I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

 

Archon

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Good morning, Archon!

 

Actually, your example is bang on, and rather helpful! I had drawn the correct conclusion; that something like The Force would be very easily represented as an EC, except with the fatal flaw that you must improve all force powers before you can again improve the EC, and in a way, that's totally groovy. I was considering mulching part of the cost of a Sorcery EC for purposes of making it accessible to any Sorcery players. The reasons I want to use an EC are:

 

- It's an innate force; getting "better" at it in an EC is directly related to improving your ability to toss your own magic around. "I'm a better sorceror, therefore these effects will stack."

 

- There is a natural and inherent limit to how much slinging of the EC one can do in a single day, even with Real Costs associated with the EC, although "charges" wouldn't apply.

 

- I still seek advice on how to balance "levels" of spells, although with much help from colleagues I think I'm good (for now) on a functional Wizard build which is a heavily modified VPP. That model is a combination of everyone's patience and The Fool's separation of the Control Cost from the Active Pool. Using a variant Charge model, I can allow the PC to "memorize a single charge" of the spell in an active slot of the VPP in Real Points. I'm not sure how that'll work out at the end of the day in terms of casting power, but if the PC does the smart thing (not to be confused with the crazy thing) they'll spend their resources judiciously.

 

- Agreed, and finally understood, because the nature of a VPP (this was lost on me for about two weeks) is that the VPP is a power - similar to Marvel Super Heroes, once you buy "Magic" you can do whatever you want within the boundaries of your ability, but can never do less than the most powerful thing you did (ouch!), I was going to let the PC start the game with a "full spell book" in his VPP, giving him a major cost break from the normal spell purchase cycle. Then as he improves, he learns new spells at 1/3rd the rate of the Real Cost (per Grimoire) and should make spells affordable.

 

- I saw the structure for a Multipower, and was seriously tempted, except ultimately the two almost seemed like a wash, and I'd be back to an END Reserve build, which would work just fine, but I'm not sure how balanced it would be, despite making the spells crazy cheap. The multipower would simply define the cap.

 

- I also looked at a charge model, but I couldn't rationalize all spells consuming one charge (see Shadowpup's model for an immediate reference). Flight, a 10d6 EB, a 5d6 RKA and an 8d6 AID SPD all take one charge? Uh-uh. That didn't work for me. The pre-assigned END Reserve (in the same mold as delayed effect) makes more sense and it's easier to control, especially since it assigns the Active Cost. It allows people to boom lots of low-level powers, or a stack of middle/high, or anywhere in between.

 

There's also rules for slotting (INT/5 Active Slots) that both Steve and The Fool were trying to explain, but that is still way over my head.

 

Good morning!

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

There's also rules for slotting (INT/5 Active Slots) that both Steve and The Fool were trying to explain' date=' but that [i']is[/i] still way over my head.

 

The slotting limit only applies if you go the Delayed Effect route. Basically, the GM just needs to set a limit for how many powers may be delayed at once. The default limit is INT/5, but it could just be a flat number like 4, or even a total number of Active Points from all the powers delayed.

 

For every extra +1/4 Advantage beyond the base +1/4 for Delayed Effect, that number is doubled. But that increased Advantage level must be taken on all powers that use Delayed Effect (like spells). However, the GM can also create a higher number of "preparations" as opposed to "releases". This gives spellcasters some flexibility, like your desire to have clerics able to swap a heal spell for another one. Say the cleric only has one release allowed per day. He can prepare both a heal and another spell, but when it comes time to release, he has to choose what he is releasing through his one available release per day.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

AHA. I think I actually got that! In which case since all spells use Delayed Effect you purchase everything with the +3/4s advantage, maximize your total number of available slots, or you deal with it as necessary and spend a lot of time reading from your book, yes?

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

AHA. I think I actually got that! In which case since all spells use Delayed Effect you purchase everything with the +3/4s advantage' date=' maximize your total number of available slots, or you deal with it as necessary and spend a lot of time reading from your book, yes?[/quote']

 

Well, if you take the +3/4 version of Delayed Effect on all spells, that means a spellcaster will have 4 times the number of releases available, which is simply a multiple on whatever limit the GM has establish on releases (examples include INT/5, a flat number like 6, total Active Points, or whatever else is decided).

 

Now, for a little added complexity, you can also categorize spells, maybe based on their Active Points. Say every 15 Active Points in a spell represents its category: a 15 Active Point spell is Category 1 (or Circle, or whatever you choose to call a Category) and a 60 Active Point spell is Category 4). By doing this, you can set up a spell system kind of like D&D, with a different number of releases per spell category. Lower Active Point spells can then be cast more often. When the VPP hits a high enough level to allow the next Category of spells, newly learned spells can only be built with the basic +1/4 Delayed Effect, the next Category down can be +1/2, and the next Category down from there can be +3/4 (which I would suggest be the campaign limit). This limits a spellcaster based on the points in their VPP. Yes, they can hold (for example) two castings of a Category 3 spell (45 Active Points, the biggest they can fit in their VPP), but they can use 4 castings of Category 2 spells, and 8 castings of Category 1s. This lets you show a character's growth in magic strength. As their VPP gets bigger, the weaker spells become easier to cast more of them. If you set the casting limit at a low number, like 2 or 3, then the +3/4 version of Delayed Effect won't give too high a number after the x4 multiplier.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Wouldn't that mean that all spells would need reconfigured into their new +X/Y version? For example:

 

I have a Lightning Bolt as a 6d6 EB, +1 AOE (Beam, I don't have my book, I'm guessing, but bear with me for a moment). 60 points Active. With the standard boat of setting adjustments: Gest., Incant., OAF., Charges (One, representing each memorization of the spell). Roughly -3.75 when it's all done. So my new Lightning Bolt is costed out at:

 

60 active (4th level)/3.75 disads = 16 real. (or 5 CP, to the PC). That's straight up, the basic model I'm currently using. Each instance of memorization is an individual charge. Can I stack that with Delayed Effect, there's question one. So.

 

We now include Delayed Effect. All spells per circle (up to the most spells of a group that can be cast at a time) must take this limitation; would then the PC be recosted at the new limit? Obviously I can't build it into the VPP except as 1/4th, because I can't make the rest of them follow.

 

Agreed, putting the cap at 3/4ths is the best solution, and I think by hybridizing all of these things together, I can definately get where I want to go; I'd also probably rule that you need a VPP of 2x the level of spells to advance the Delayed Effect. It would then be an... option? I can't reasonably make the player stack it all in, and in HERO I don't want them getting something for nothing.

 

Other notes on the VPP structure:

 

+ The PC may build spells into his VPP (Limitation: Known Spells Only, -1) using his initial expenditure of points. To reflect his 'growing knowledge' (and I believe someone else posted this idea, but I can't give cred at the moment, as I can't look) but:

 

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

And to get back to a little bit of that old school D&D feel, PC wizards will be on the lookout for new spells that they can study and then define as "Known", so they can get more flexibility out of their VPPs. I realize that this has been pointed out several times, but I felt that with the above clarification (if it is, indeed a clarification), it was worth pointing out again.

 

I was thinking of allowing the PC to 'double dip' points; if they spend to improve their VPP, then those same points would give them "new" spells, to reflect the expanded knowledge. This will keep them from having to spend points twice (once to improve, once to gain spells) and I can "give them" spells that they can learn via scrolls, skill rolls, etc. The nature of the VPP says that they can add just about any power so long as it falls within their limits, yes?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I was thinking of allowing the PC to 'double dip' points; if they spend to improve their VPP, then those same points would give them "new" spells, to reflect the expanded knowledge. This will keep them from having to spend points twice (once to improve, once to gain spells) and I can "give them" spells that they can learn via scrolls, skill rolls, etc. The nature of the VPP says that they can add just about any power so long as it falls within their limits, yes?

 

Technically, you don't need to have them spend points on spells at all. Once they have the VPP, the only thing keeping them from casting anything is whether or not they know the spell. For starting characters, you'd have to arbitrarily assign some known spells (although, "double-dipping" might be a good way to assign those spells...you have 40 points in your VPP, you get 40 points of known spells starting out), and as the game progresses, they can learn any spells they come across.

 

But, with a VPP, they've already paid points for any spell conceivable. There's no need to spend points to learn more.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

There is a lot of jumping around going on in this thread, to the point that I can't quite figure out exactly what is being discussed with a cursory inspection.

 

 

But anyway, I wasnt sure if the issues w/ understanding how VPPs work was cleared up, so I made this little graphic to illustrate the basic functionality of a stock VPP.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Wouldn't that mean that all spells would need reconfigured into their new +X/Y version? For example:

 

I have a Lightning Bolt as a 6d6 EB, +1 AOE (Beam, I don't have my book, I'm guessing, but bear with me for a moment). 60 points Active. With the standard boat of setting adjustments: Gest., Incant., OAF., Charges (One, representing each memorization of the spell). Roughly -3.75 when it's all done. So my new Lightning Bolt is costed out at:

 

60 active (4th level)/3.75 disads = 16 real. (or 5 CP, to the PC). That's straight up, the basic model I'm currently using. Each instance of memorization is an individual charge. Can I stack that with Delayed Effect, there's question one. So.

 

You can use Delayed Effect and Charges on a single spell. The casting limit that is built into Delayed Effect speaks about all spells that the caster may have memorized. For example, assuming the maximum number of powers (spells) that can be delayed is 4 for the +1/4 version, then the character could memorize his Lightning Bolt once, a Fireball once, a Detect Magic once, and Invisibility once. He could also memorize his Lightning Bolt four times (which should change the Charges Limitation value).

 

You might find it easier to work with the Active Points of spells if you build them without figuring in the Delayed Effect Advantage. Your example spell is not built with Delayed Effect, which would change the cost to 67 Active Points for the +1/4 version. By setting up Delayed Effect as a 'naked' Advantage outside the VPP, it could be a feature of your magic system. For example, assume the character has a 45 point VPP:

 

+3/4 Delayed Effect on 15 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 11

 

+1/2 Delayed Effect on 30 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 15 points.

 

+1/4 Delayed Effect on 45 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 11 points.

 

Now, as the character gets more powerful, a 60 point VPP, these Advantages can scale up:

 

+3/4 Delayed Effect on 30 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 22

 

+1/2 Delayed Effect on 45 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 22 points.

 

+1/4 Delayed Effect on 60 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 15 points.

 

These Advantages could be Limited by whatever you feel appropriate for your magic system, but it might be best to just make them 'freebie' Advantages on your magic system. A 30 point spell is then based on Advantages other than Delayed Effect. It's simply an assumed feature of the magic system.

 

 

We now include Delayed Effect. All spells per circle (up to the most spells of a group that can be cast at a time) must take this limitation; would then the PC be recosted at the new limit? Obviously I can't build it into the VPP except as 1/4th' date=' because I can't make the rest of them follow.[/quote']

 

Yes, that sounds right. As you change Advantages and Limitations in a power (spell), it will need to be recosted.

 

Agreed' date=' putting the cap at 3/4ths is the best solution, and I think by hybridizing all of these things together, I can definately get where I want to go; I'd also probably rule that you need a VPP of 2x the level of spells to advance the [i']Delayed Effect[/i]. It would then be an... option? I can't reasonably make the player stack it all in, and in HERO I don't want them getting something for nothing.

 

There are some things that might work best if you make them a feature of your magic system, and not require a spellcaster to pay for them. Plus it makes the math a little easier. It can simply be assumed that Delayed Effect is built into each spell without changing the costs. Then as the VPP gets more powerful, it is assumed that a spellcaster can cast weaker spells more often.

 

One rule of thumb I've found helpful is that if the PCs and NPCs are both running under the same magic system rules, it's by default fair.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I see what you're saying now, and that makes sense to me. And, since I don't "have to" charge the PC for spells in his VPP, that makes those abilities that much more accessible. Finally, using the delayed advantage model you've laid out as a NPA freebie could certainly work out as a 'feature' of the magic system, without trying to reinvent the wheel. It may also seriously muck with people's heads, but hey, that's the price of fame.

 

So the model you're using still assumes the INT/5 slot system, with a cap in place that says the Delayed Effect shouldn't go beyond 3/4ths (which is totally reasonable to me) and that the effect is scaled to its three nearest tiers, with all tiers below being 3/4ths, and no tiers above being castable (per the VPP restriction).

 

I don't understand how you did this math, though:

 

Originally Posted by Steve

+3/4 Delayed Effect on 30 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 22

 

+1/2 Delayed Effect on 45 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 22 points.

 

+1/4 Delayed Effect on 60 Active Points of spells. Active Cost: 15 points.

 

 

Because when I do 60 * 1.25 I get 75... obviously I'm way off somewhere, but if you could explain exactly where, that'd be great. I have to be able to replicate the effect on command in order to keep everything clear to the PC, so they understand exactly how the mechanic works, and why it works that way.

 

You're also changing from the Charges model I'd used prior: All spells have ONE charge; you may memorize multiple instances of that spell by slotting it into the active points of your VPP; the VPP is built on the model, All Spells Have One Charge which makes the VPP cheaper, and makes the spells in general more castable, although it doesn't have any bearing on the total spell selection.

 

Breaking away from that is fine, well and good. I just want to make sure when I sit down with the player, I can explain it to him in real math and in mechanics terms, so he understands what I'm doing. He also needs to understand that he can't magically cough up a new spell, and all his magic needs prepped.

 

Whee!

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I see what you're saying now, and that makes sense to me. And, since I don't "have to" charge the PC for spells in his VPP, that makes those abilities that much more accessible. Finally, using the delayed advantage model you've laid out as a NPA freebie could certainly work out as a 'feature' of the magic system, without trying to reinvent the wheel. It may also seriously muck with people's heads, but hey, that's the price of fame.

 

So the model you're using still assumes the INT/5 slot system, with a cap in place that says the Delayed Effect shouldn't go beyond 3/4ths (which is totally reasonable to me) and that the effect is scaled to its three nearest tiers, with all tiers below being 3/4ths, and no tiers above being castable (per the VPP restriction).

 

Pretty much. I think INT/5 is a decent benchmark to use, since it gives a modest advantage to brighter spellcasters. Priestly magic might use a different characteristic, such as EGO/5. Yes, any tiers 3 or more below the highest would be +3/4 as well.

 

 

I don't understand how you did this math, though:

 

Because when I do 60 * 1.25 I get 75... obviously I'm way off somewhere, but if you could explain exactly where, that'd be great. I have to be able to replicate the effect on command in order to keep everything clear to the PC, so they understand exactly how the mechanic works, and why it works that way.

 

I was calculating the value of the naked Advantage itself, so a +1/4 Advantage on a 60 point power is 15 points. It's simply an add-on at that point, and it can have its own Limitations.

 

 

You're also changing from the Charges model I'd used prior: All spells have ONE charge; you may memorize multiple instances of that spell by slotting it into the active points of your VPP; the VPP is built on the model' date=' [i']All Spells Have One Charge[/i] which makes the VPP cheaper, and makes the spells in general more castable, although it doesn't have any bearing on the total spell selection.

 

Breaking away from that is fine, well and good. I just want to make sure when I sit down with the player, I can explain it to him in real math and in mechanics terms, so he understands what I'm doing. He also needs to understand that he can't magically cough up a new spell, and all his magic needs prepped.

 

Whee!

 

Okay, if we build a spell with 1 Charge, it's a -2 Limitation. Let's take a simple build to work the numbers: a 45 Active Point spell with Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) and 1 Charge (-2) or -2 1/2 in Limitations. The Real Cost is then 13. If a spellcaster memorizes it four times, the RAW would change the Charges Limitation to a -1 instead of a -2. The Real Cost becomes 18, a difference of 5 points. It seems weird to me to have four memorizations of a single spell cost 52 (4*13) points instead of 18. It's cheaper in the RAW to memorize more castings of fewer spells than it would be to memorize one casting each of more spells. You could build into the VPP a maximum limit of how many castings of a single spell are allowed, I suppose. A spell could have less castings memorized, but it can't have more.

 

Idea: A rookie spellcaster may have to build their VPP with the 1 Charge (-2) Limitation, but that gets bought off as they get more experienced, maybe to a maximum of 8 Charges (-1/4) per spell.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Idea: A rookie spellcaster may have to build their VPP with the 1 Charge (-2) Limitation, but that gets bought off as they get more experienced, maybe to a maximum of 8 Charges (-1/4) per spell.

 

If you apply the 1 Charge Limitation to the VPP, you'll only be able to use the entire VPP once until it recharges. If you're going for the D&D 1st level M-U feel, then that works. Otherwise, just apply the Limitation to the powers within the VPP.

[Archon]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

- Agreed, and finally understood, because the nature of a VPP (this was lost on me for about two weeks) is that the VPP is a power - similar to Marvel Super Heroes, once you buy "Magic" you can do whatever you want within the boundaries of your ability, but can never do less than the most powerful thing you did (ouch!), I was going to let the PC start the game with a "full spell book" in his VPP, giving him a major cost break from the normal spell purchase cycle. Then as he improves, he learns new spells at 1/3rd the rate of the Real Cost (per Grimoire) and should make spells affordable.

 

 

Actually a power in a VPP can have any AP from 1 up the max value of the VPP.

 

Ex.

60 VPP (60 base)

 

30 12 d6 EB, OAF staff(-1)

10 Force Field (10/10)(20 AP), Incantations, Gestures, OIF magic necklace

20 2d6 Entangle, AoE radius (40 AP), Incantantions, Gestures, OIF magic belt

 

BTW, I stopped here because those 3 powers take up 60 real points which is the max allowed in the VPP because it has a 60 pt base. With other power examples I could have had 5, 10, etc number of powers if they had a lower RP value that also added up to 60.

 

Archon

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

If you apply the 1 Charge Limitation to the VPP' date=' you'll only be able to use the entire VPP once until it recharges. If you're going for the D&D 1st level M-U feel, then that works. Otherwise, just apply the Limitation to the powers within the VPP.[/quote']

 

Well, according to 5ER, I believe you are correct. However, since Thia is designing his magic system from the ground up, taking a 1 Charge Limitation on his VPP and saying it refers to requiring the individual powers taken through the pool to take that Limitation instead of the pool itself being one usage per day is not a bad stretch of the rules. Limitations required on all powers taken through a VPP, like all of them having Gestures and Incantations, is something I've seen other magic systems do before.

 

By making that assumption in the magic system's ground rules for a spell-based VPP, you can go further and specify limits as to the maximum number of memorizations for a single spell that can be taken. Maybe the VPP itself, by means of Delayed Effect limits that are also another assumption of the magic system's construction, allows a maximum number of castings equal to INT/5, but no individual spell can be taken with more than, for example, 2 Charges. And if the PC was a young apprentice, that maximum number of Charges could be even lower, like 1. This is where using Hero as a toolkit frees the mind of constraints, but still allows the creation of an internally consistent magic system.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Actually, the plan was to have the limitation All Spells Must Have One Charge (-2) and then assign each spell as one charge (as Killer Shrike did). Then you would slot in each instance of the spell into the VPP as assigned Real Points against a total cap of the VPP x 2 or x 3. Hence, a 60 pt. VPP would allow 180 Real Points of spells to be placed in it (again, using Killer Shrike's model, in combination with a few other bits & pieces). This generates a memorization model, where each "real" slot is One Charge. Because of the nature of the VPP, and there's no limit to what you can do with it (i.e., you can know any number of spells, because technically you can use it however you like) this removes the requirement for END and creates a natural slot system.

 

Using a Delayed Advantage model allows a similar flexibility, but it gets expensive, so it would make more sense as a feature, rather than a build structure for a 150 pt. HERO, unless there's something in the math I'm not catching, or y'all would suggest not charging the caster for his spells - i.e., he can learn any new spells as part of his VPP at no limit.

 

archon - we're modifying the VPP model slightly, rather than capping out the number of abilities you could have, we're capping the number of abilities you can have 'active' at any one time. This is because it's a bit of a royal pain to 'simulate' a structured magic style, and the whole exercise may eventually become moot, but I've learned more in this one discussion about Power Frameworks than I could have hoped to achieve on my own in time to prepare all this material for my game.

 

Using the Charge model, and assuming Verbal (.25)/Somatic (.25)/Material (~1.25) with the charge attached (-2.00) it comes out to roughly -4.75 on every spell, which makes them all extremely cheap, and going on a Real Cost model would make them fit very neatly into the allocable "real points" of the VPP pool itself.

 

I'm not requiring RSR because I'm making an exception for this game; d20 (to reference material I know for a second) does, in fact, use an RSR model; but it only comes into play when conditions become unfavorable. For example, when someone looks at you funny, you make a Concentration check. You get hit? Concentration. Ship moving beneath your fit? Concentration. Mother in law visiting? Concentration. So I'm going to use the exact same mechanics for RSR; you aren't required to toss dice to confirm fizzle unless you are in less than ideal conditions, then all modifiers apply.

 

Next game (hopefully my Urban Fantasy setting) I'll go full blown RSR. I'm also going to test it out on Summon Spells and the like. And, as the post says, this is the first hurdle. I also need to read up on how people are handling magic item creation, because I can't have people running around and burning points to cough up an item they have no business making. Rogues making Wands of Fireballs? No. No, I don't think so.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Here is how the Control for the VPP from my Wizardry system ( http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/wizardry.shtml ) is defined:

 

 

WIZARD MAGIC VPP CONTROL COST

 

* Only Arcane Magic (-1/2)

* Only Change Spells With Spell Book & Study Time (-1/2)

* All Spells Must Have 1 Charge (-1/4)

* Variable Limitation (-1/2; each Spell must take -1 of Limitations from Extra Time, Concentration, Incantation, Gesture, Limited Range, Restrainable By Spell Components Pouch, or RSR: Magic Skill vs. Spell Resistance in any combination at a MINIMUM)

 

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points

Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17.5 Real Points

 

 

The VPP does'nt have Charges on it, but there is a Limitation on what kind of Powers can go into the VPP -- only Powers that have 1 Charge are allowed. This is similar to limiting a VPP to a particular SFX; it's just a form of constraining the VPP.

 

If you actually placed Charges directly on the VPP Control Cost (rather than just requiring Spells taken by the VPP to have Charges) then it would indeed have much greater ramifications, in addition to being pretty inefficient (i.e. not a good idea).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I think you said what I wanted to say, but way more clearly. With that, what do you think of using the Delayed Effect construction as a way of making sure that not everyone is slinging a gabillion spells a day? Or would you simply go with having them assigning their REAL point values into the pool for each instance of the spell they wish to cast and have them pick and choose?

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Well, with Delayed Effect as an assumption (free to all) of the magic system, it is actually built in that a limited number of spells can be hurled. By requiring 1 Charge and Delayed Effect on all spells, you simulate the 'fire and forget' nature of D&D magic, which is itself based on ideas from some of Jack Vance's stories. The question then becomes, how much do you want your spellcasters to pay for casting magic?

 

With INT/5 as the limit (which gives some build flexibility), that spellcaster can cast 3-5 spells per day (assuming a 15-25 INT range for a Heroic-level character). Still using the Delayed Effect model and suggestions from Fantasy Hero, let's say a 15 INT spellcaster can 'prepare' twice that number of spells (6), but only 'release' 3 spells.

 

If you add in my notion of spell categories (which is also based on ideas from Fantasy Hero), this 15 INT spellcaster can cast 3 of his most powerful spells, 6 of his next category down (-15 Active Points below most powerful spells known), and 12 of any category below that (-30 Active Points and below). That's 21 spells, assuming a 45 Active Point limit. Is that too much magic? It all depends on the campaign. If the Active Point limit is 60, then you are up to 33 spells.

 

Now let's look at Real Points. Assuming 3 spells at 45 Active Points, 6 at 30 Active Points, and 12 at 15 Active Points, and each spell has Gestures, Incantations and 1 Charge at a minimum (-2 1/2 in Limitations), that works out to 13x3 Real Points, 9x6 Real Points and 4*12 Real Points (141 Real Points total). Assuming a VPP built something like what KS suggests, I am getting a number around 169 points (say about 2 control points for every 10 in the pool). Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but that's a heck of an expenditure for being able to cast 21 spells in a given day!

 

I think an easier method would be to just take a Talent like I suggested many posts back. 45 Points for being able to cast a 45 Active Point spell, no VPP control cost involved. It's just a Magic Talent. Built into the magic system assumptions is that each spell is built with Delayed Effect (limiting the total number of spells per day) and 1 Charge per memorization. By means of this built-in magic system structure, the spellcaster can memorize 3 spells of 31-45 Active Points, 6 spells of 16-30 Active Points, and 12 spells of 15 or less Active Points. Since 1 Charge is built into each spell, you don't need to worry about an END Reserve.

 

As the spellcaster gets more powerful, he can add more points to the Talent. At 60 points, the categories shift up one for our 15 INT spellcaster: 3 60 Active Point spells, 6 45 Active Point spells, 12 30 Active Point spells, and 12 15 Active Point spells. Can spells become more powerful, or are they fixed? That's another magic system choice. How many spells can be wielded at once? I'd say the same INT/5 limit. To start up another spell, a currently running spell would have to be cancelled.

 

For a 150 point character, 30 points on magic ability seems reasonable (20% of available points). Since you aren't using RSR, magic is reliable, and the limits on spellcasting are built into the magic system itself (using a Delayed Effect construction).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Cut & pasted and emailed to my friend so we can review it together on Saturday, but I'll respond in full in the morning. However, this may be an equitable solution. The only disad is the purchase of spells, because I want the Wizard to have access to a ton of spells without spending a ton of resources; what would you suggest as the easiest work around?

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Cut & pasted and emailed to my friend so we can review it together on Saturday' date=' but I'll respond in full in the morning. However, this may be an equitable solution. The only disad is the purchase of spells, because I want the Wizard to have access to a ton of spells without spending a ton of resources; what would you suggest as the easiest work around?[/quote']

 

Ah, that's the beauty of it. The points are spent on the ability to cast magic, not the spells themselves. How many spells does the spellcaster have? I'd suggest starting him off with enough to fill his slots (at a 30 point Talent, that would be 3 30 Active Point spells and 6 15 Active Point spells). He can then buy or invent more spells beyond that as the game progresses. If that seems too limiting, double his number of starting spells.

 

Note that a spellcaster can prepare more than he can cast, to give some flexibility. A suggested limit would be twice his available releases.

 

You might also make it a magic system assumption that each spell preparation requires 5 minutes of Extra Time and 0 DCV Concentration. That would be 45 minutes for a starting spellcaster with a 15 INT and a 30 point spellcasting Talent to study all his spells.

 

You might also prefer to divide spell categories by 10 instead of 15. YMMV.