New Advantage: Rate of Fire

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I've thought up a clean mechanic for dealing with a non-standard attack that purchases ROF. Simply reduce the ROF number by 1. So a Prismatic Spray might have 7 potential attacks all purchased with ROF 3. If you attack with a standard attack' date=' a 3 or less would allow an additional attack. If you use a NND, Ego Blast, or Drain, a 2 or less would allow for another attack. Note that I wouldn't reduce ROF for something like an Area Effect, but only stuff that affects non-standard defenses.[/quote']

 

How would this dovetail with the ability to switch between powers which all have RoF? Could each RoF power have a different number, and you would roll for the power which was just fired (deciding which would be next if that roll is successful)?

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

How would this dovetail with the ability to switch between powers which all have RoF? Could each RoF power have a different number' date=' and you would roll for the power which was just fired (deciding which would be next if that roll is successful)?[/quote']

 

 

You can only make an additional attack with a power that has purchased at least the same ROF level. So a nonstandard attack with ROF 3 has actually purchased at the 3 level, but needs to roll a 2 or less to get off another attack. And then can switch to any other attack that has purchased ROF 3.

[Toadmaster]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

While perhaps not cost-effective' date=' it sounds to me like the actual game-play effect of RoF would be more accurately modelled by extra SPD, bought with restrictions on when and how it can be used.[/quote']

 

Thats what we used to do when creating creatures with multiple attacks, they bought extra speed that could only be used for attacking, so for example a creature like a hydra capable of making multiple attacks might have a base speed of 3 but an attack speed of 6, so on the normal speed 3 phases there were no restrictions, but the speed 6 phases could only be used to make an attack roll (no moving, skills etc).

 

As far as the ROF, I am pretty liberal about twisting and tweaking the existing rules to make something work, I don't usually find it neccessary to create "new" rules as I usually can find a way to make it work without doing so.

 

For the example of a beholder I would look at speed as mentioned above or perhaps build a Beholder as eleven creatures (body + 10 eyestalks) sharing one body, make the eyestalks independant characters. This kind of fits my perception of the Beholder and would make it much nastier than the typical write up you would find in most HERO games, best of all it fits within the existing rules (although it might stretch them a tad).

[Markdoc]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

So stripped down to its essentials, this lets you multi-attacks with slots in multipowers, or get a more effective autofire.

 

Since autofire's +1/2, it should be higher costed than that. Since you're getting an 80% or 90% discount on slots in multipowers, the advantage should be way higher than that.

 

Personally, I'd use another approach. Spells like pristmatic spray are insanely expensive in Hero because they're insanely effective (9 attacks in one!). Things with multiple heads/attacks like hydras, chimerae and Beholders are probably best bought with limited duplication.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

So stripped down to its essentials' date=' this lets you multi-attacks with slots in multipowers, or get a more effective autofire.[/quote']

It's the Multi-Attack with the Multipower Slots that would make me a bit uneasy. One of the controlling factors of the low MP Cost I see is that you can't do a Multiple-Power Attack with them.

[Rapier]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

The same sort of effect couldn't be done with an EC and Multi-power Attack?

 

My thoughts exactly. Autofire or an MPA can already perform this function. In my mind, part of the intent (and I could be wrong) is to allow multiple slots in a multipower to be fired in the same phase regardless of Active Point restrictions. That is patently illegal.

 

I would be much happier allowing an MPA using a bunch of multi slots (as opposed to ultra) configured to stay within active point restrictions.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

So stripped down to its essentials, this lets you multi-attacks with slots in multipowers, or get a more effective autofire.

 

Since autofire's +1/2, it should be higher costed than that. Since you're getting an 80% or 90% discount on slots in multipowers, the advantage should be way higher than that.

 

Personally, I'd use another approach. Spells like pristmatic spray are insanely expensive in Hero because they're insanely effective (9 attacks in one!). Things with multiple heads/attacks like hydras, chimerae and Beholders are probably best bought with limited duplication.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

The odds of actually getting 9 shots off even with ROF 3 is 1 in 256. With ROF2, it's 1 in 6561. So I'm not especially worried about the pricing. It may occasionally happen, but not often enough to matter.

 

ROF allows for stuff like prismatic spray without being too obnoxiously effective or expensive.

[Markdoc]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

It's the Multi-Attack with the Multipower Slots that would make me a bit uneasy. One of the controlling factors of the low MP Cost I see is that you can't do a Multiple-Power Attack with them.

 

Prezacktly! Also in a MP, the need for various powers to both have the advantage is relatively trivial, since you can have extra slots fairly cheaply.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

The odds of actually getting 9 shots off even with ROF 3 is 1 in 256. With ROF2, it's 1 in 6561. So I'm not especially worried about the pricing. It may occasionally happen, but not often enough to matter.

 

ROF allows for stuff like prismatic spray without being too obnoxiously effective or expensive.

 

Maybe - but with autofire, you're normally looking for 1 or 2 extra hits - not 5 or 10. ROF gives you relatively good chance of reaching that level. I don't think it's hideously unworkable, but I wouldn't use it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

Maybe - but with autofire, you're normally looking for 1 or 2 extra hits - not 5 or 10. ROF gives you relatively good chance of reaching that level. I don't think it's hideously unworkable, but I wouldn't use it.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Autofire 3 is only a +1/4 advantage, and that'll get you the same 1-2 extra hits. To average 2 hits, you would need ROF 3 which is a +1 Advantage.

 

ROF is more expensive in general than autofire because you can do different things with it and for the potential to go on a long string of attacks. However, it doesn't do the exact same thing as autofire and fills a different though similar niche.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

Some random thoughts based partly on the related Beholder thread.

 

One of the primary effects of this advantage appears to be the ability to turn all the slots from an attack multipower (that have this advantage) into a form of multiple power attack. Or in other words, turn them into individually purchased powers that can potentially all be used together vs. a single target. Since the advantage is only being applied to slot cost it seems unlikely that the total framework cost will ever come close to that of an individual power based construct with a ton of 'lockout-like' Limitations.

 

Have you tried using such a build to compare costs in this manner?

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

Rate Of Fire (Advantage)

This advantage may be applied to an attack power. The player still rolls three dice for the attack roll plus a ROF Die (usually a unique color). If that ROF Die Roll is less than or equal to the Rate Of Fire level purchased, then the player may choose to roll another attack against the target. Each additional attack costs endurance.

 

Each time an attack roll is made, if the single die roll is less than or equal to the Rate Of Fire level purchased, then the player may continue to make attack rolls. Once the attacks are completed, damage for each attack is rolled and applied separately against the target's defenses.

 

Non-Standard Attacks

Non-Standard Attacks have -1 ROF Penalty vs the ROF Level for determining whether an additional attack is possible. So a ROF 3 is treated as a ROF 2 for Non-Standard Attacks. No Normal Defense and EGO Attack are examples of Non-Standard Attacks.

 

Different attack powers with the Rate Of Fire advantage become a pool of attacks the player may choose from for each attack made (which attack power being used must be announced before each attack roll).

 

Example 1:

The 100 handed ones in Greek Myth have the potential to hit a target 100 times in a phase. However, that many hands seriously interfere with each other and any given phase might have varying amounts of hands in position to make an effective attack on a man sized target. They purchase +8d6 HA ROF 3 (+1) HA (-1/2) for a total of 53 pts. After adding Str, the 100 handed one can make a 16d6 attack. If he rolls 3 or less on the colored die, he can continue to keep attacking until he finally makes an attack roll with a 4-6 on the colored die.

 

Example 2:

A Beholder has 10 attacks in a MultiPower, each with ROF 2 for a +1/2 Advantage. However, it's fairly difficult for it to hit a single target with all its eyes due to the eye stalks interfering with each other. But it can potentially (although highly unlikely) hit a target 10 times in the same phase.

 

If its attack roll results in a 1-2 with the colored die, the beholder can attack again, and even use another attack slot in its MultiPower that has purchased this advantage at level 2 or 3. Note that the beholder cannot "downgrade". If it uses a ROF 2 attack, it cannot later switch to a ROF 1 attack even if it rolled a 1 on the colored die. If the Beholder chooses to use a nonstandard attack eye stalk, he still pays for ROF 2, but only gets an additional attack of a 1 is rolled on the colored die.

 

Level Costs

Rate Of Fire 1 (+1/4): A die roll of 1 allows another attack roll.

Rate Of Fire 2 (+1/2): A die roll of 2 or less allows another attack roll.

Rate Of Fire 3 (+1): A die roll of 3 or less allows another attack roll.

 

Note: A GM may want to put a logical limit in the total number of attacks made, such as limiting the beholder to 10 attacks.

 

Concept organized and reworded for presentation here. Gary, let me know if anything needs to be changed.

 

Original Concept By Gary In This [thread=39488]Thread[/thread].

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

Added concept to New Power Ideas.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

It's intriguing...

 

However to me this feels like two different, related effects. The first part is the repeated attack, which is kind of like an Advantage form of Rapid Fire / Sweep. Basically the power costs more, but you don't suffer cumulative to hit penalties. "Rate of Fire" doesn't really capture that effect to me -- I would think of this as more like a "Flurry" or "Follow-up" or "Burst" or "Barrage". Yeah, Barrage.

 

 

The second part is a special behavior of this Advantage when it is applied to a Multipower.

 

I would define it like this:

 

*******************************************

Barrage (Advantage)

 

This advantage may be applied to an attack power.

 

Barrage is rated in stepped levels, 1 through 4 and starting at 1. The Barrage level determines both a chance of success for making additional attacks with the Power the Advantage is applied to (described below), and also a limit on the total number of additional attacks that can be made in this fashion per Phase. Each Barrage level is a cumulative +1/4 Advantage, as summarized by the following chart.

 

Barrage 1.....+1/4

Barrage 2.....+1/2

Barrage 3.....+3/4

Barrage 4.....+1

 

The Barrage limit is equal to the Barrage level; thus a power with Barrage 1 applied to it can gain at most one additional attack per Phase. The Barrage limit can be doubled for a cumulative +1/4 Advantage, as summarized by the following chart:

 

Barrage Limit x2.....+1/4

Barrage Limit x4.....+1/2

Barrage Limit x8.....+3/4

Barrage Limit x16.....+1

etc...

 

Example 1

 

Barrage 1 with a maximum of 4 additional attacks per Phase is a total +3/4 Advantage.

Example 2

 

Barrage 4 with a maximum of 8 additional attacks per Phase is a total +1 1/4 Advantage.

 

 

When rolling to attack with a Power that has the Barrage Advantage, a player makes a standard 3d6 attack roll and adds the dice together in the normal fashion, but one of the attack dice are differentiated in some way (typically by rolling a die of a different color or size than the other two); this die is referred to as the "Barrage die" hereafter.

 

If the Barrage die's face value is less than or equal to the Barrage Level applied to the Power, the character's Phase is not immediately ended as is normal; instead the character may make another attack with the same Power, with a separate Attack roll with all applicable modifiers applied. Any activation of effect Limitations such as Extra Time, Incantations, Gestures, Activation and Required Skill Rolls, Side Effects, and so forth do not apply to this additional attack. Endurance must be paid again for the additional attack, but a new target may be chosen if desired as long as the new target is valid for the Power taking into account any applicable Limitations.

 

This process repeats until either the character misses an attack, or the Barrage die's face value is not less than or equal to the Power's Barrage rating, or the character can no longer pay Endurance for additional attacks, there are no more valid targets, the player opts to stop making attacks, or the Barrage limit is reached (whichever occurs first).

 

Example 3

 

Punch Buggy has an Attack defined as Smack-down! +4d6 Hand Attack, Barrage 4 (+1); (40 Active Points) Hand Attack (-1/2), Does Knockdown (No Knockback, -1/4). Fighting against the villain Punishment Glutton, Punch Buggy unleashes his Smack-down by making an attack roll. One of the d6 used is bigger than the other two and is selected as the Barrage die; rolling 3d6 for a result of 2 + 4 + 5, a total of 11, and a 4 on the Barrage die Punch Buggy hits!

 

The damage is resolved and Endurance is paid as normal, and then because Punch Buggy's Barrage die was less than or equal to the Power's Barrage level Punch Buggy gets to attack with it again. If Punch Buggy continues to hit and the Barrage die continues to come up as a 4 or less, assuming he can pay the Endurance and has a valid target then he can continue to make attacks with the Smack-down Power until he reaches the Barrage limit of 4 total additional attacks.

 

 

Multipower

Barrage can be applied to Multipower slots with no special rules or consideration, working for that individual Power slot exactly the same as for any other applicable Power.

 

However, Barrage can also be applied directly to a Multipower Reserve, with some restrictions, in which case it has an additional special behavior. For this to be allowed all the slots in the Multipower must require Attack Rolls, and all Limitations affecting the activation and use of the Powers must be shared among them. Limitations that modify the behavior or cost of a slot but not its activation or use can differ between slots (such as the Hand Attack Limitation, Increased Endurance, Charges, and so forth). For instance, if one slot requires Concentration and Gestures to turn on, then all of the slots must require Concentration and Gestures, and so forth. Generally speaking, such Limitations could also be applied to the Multipower Reserve itself in such an arrangement and typically are. Finally all the slots in the Multipower must be Ultraslots.

 

When using one of the Powers within the Multipower, if the Barrage effect occurs the character may chose to make their additional Barrage attack with one of the other slots in the Multipower instead of the Power they are currently using. If this option is exercised, the Multipower's Reserve is reallocated to the newly chosen slot. The newly chosen slot also has Barrage by virtue of being in the Multipower Reserve, and thus the Barrage chain is uninterrupted by switching slots. The player can opt to change slots each time an additional Barrage attack is gained and make a new Attack roll with the newly selected slot, resolve its effect, and pay its Endurance. Each attack still counts towards the Barrage limit.

 

Example 4

Punch Buggy has gained a little experience and now has a series of attacks defined in a Multipower as follows:

 

Punch Buggy Multipower (20 Reserve), Barrage 4 (+1) (40 AP), Does Knockdown (No Knockback, -1/4)

 

1u) Smack-down!: +4d6 Hand Attack, Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

2u) Sucker Punch!: +2d6 Hand Attack, NND (Make A CON Roll at -2, +1), Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

3u) Big Whallop!: +2d6 Hand Attack, AoE 1 hex Radius Accurate (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

4u) Combo!: +3d6 Hand Attack, Autofire x3 (+1/4), Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

5u) Punch Projectile!: 4d6 Energy Blast vs PD, OIF (Projectile of Opportunity, -1/2)

 

Using anyone of these attacks, if Punch Buggy gains an additional Barrage attack he can opt to use one of the other slots in the Multipower instead of the original attack, and can make this decision again each time he gains an additional Barrage attack. Punch Buggy cannot opt to use an attack outside of the Multipower in this fashion, even if it also has the Barrage Advantage applied to it.

 

 

Opting to switch to another slot in this fashion is entirely elective, however if it is mandatory to switch to a new slot and further the same slot cannot be used more than once per Barrage then a separate Limitation can be applied to the Multipower Reserve:

 

Barrage Distinctness (Cannot Use Same Multipower Slot More Than Once Per Barrage, -1/4)

 

 

Example 5

Continuing the above example, if Punch Buggy had to switch slots for each Barrage attack, the slots themselves would be unchanged but the Multipower Reserve would be defined as:

 

Punch Buggy Multipower (20 Reserve), Barrage 4 (+1) (40 AP), Does Knockdown (No Knockback, -1/4), Barrage Distinctness (Cannot Use Same Multipower Slot More Than Once Per Barrage, -1/4)

 

 

 

Rapid Fire

A Power with this Advantage applied to it may not be used in conjunction with the Rapid Fire Maneuver.

 

Sweep

A Power with this Advantage applied to it may not be used in conjunction with the Sweep Maneuver.

 

 

Area of Effect / Explosion [Yield Sign]

A Power that has an Area of Effect either due to the Area of Effect Advantage or natively, or that has the Explosion Advantage can also have the Barrage Advantage by default. However this combination could potentially be unbalancing; GM's discretion applies.

 

Autofire [Yield Sign]

A Power can have both this Advantage and Autofire, in which each separate attack resolves Autofire normally. However this combination could potentially be unbalancing; GM's discretion applies.

 

Multiple Power Attacks

A Power with this Advantage cannot be combined with other Attacks as part of a Multipower Attack by default. However, individual GM's might permit it in some cases if it makes dramatic sense and is not in their opinion unbalancing.

 

Reduced Endurance

A Power can have both this Advantage and Reduced Endurance.

 

 

*******************************************

 

Just my two cents....

[Lucius]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

First of all: Before I get into the criticism, Gary, I want to say that I'm intrigued by this idea and you may be onto something.

 

Crossposting from the Beholder thread:

 

Autofire doesn't allow you to switch between different attacks with multiple shots' date=' especially different attacks in the same multipower.[/quote']

 

And in my opinion, this Advantage (whatever we call it - I don't like "Rate of Fire" either) shouldn't allow that either. Not for Multipowers.

 

A Multipower is a reserve pool of points that can be assigned to one or more of several preselected Powers. As I recall it, you decide how those points are distributed at the beginning of your phase, and then they stay that way until your next phase.

 

What you're proposing is to have the ability to change that distribution more than once a phase. That's not quite violating the principle that there are only so many points - the points are being redistributed, not put in one slot and in another slot at the exact same time - but it's close enough to make me think carefully about it.

 

It's like saying that even if you've already used a Combat Level to add to the OCV of one attack this phase you can use the same level again to add to another attack.

 

I would say that IF such a thing should be allowed, the Advantage must be on the Multipower Reserve of points as well as on any slots that can be used this way.

 

For that matter, if you put the Advantage on Combat Skill Levels, maybe you can recycle those too.

 

Multipower aside, I'd say that the ability to make another attack is not the same as the ability to make another attack with a different attack Power. I think the ability to make more attacks with different powers should be an even bigger Advantage, and of course it should be bought on both of the attacks. And yes, that definitely applies to Multipowers, if they're to be allowed to switch slots.

 

Now, switching from a Multipower attack to another attack that's outside the Multipower is something else again. If that's what you want to be able to do, maybe you only need the Advantage on the slot (or slots) and not on the Reserve.

 

But can I make ROF Ablative?

 

So, frex, I start at ROF 5 (for a +Silly). If I roll a 5 or 6, it ticks down one. This would allow for higher values and retain an 'off' function.

 

I think it might be a good idea if, every time the Advantage succeeds in granting an extra attack, it "ticks down" by one. So if you only had it at the first level, it would only grant one extra attack. Then again, this may "nerf" it to the point of not being worthwhile at all....still, the "open ended" nature of it if one can just keep rerolling as long as one remains lucky concerns some of us.

 

Probabilities aside, I have seen people make rolls that are literally one in ten million.

 

It's an interesting simulation piece' date=' but also seems to go against the 'core' of HERO, in terms of 'one attack per person per phase,' barring [i']Duplication[/i].

 

Autofire, Multiple Power Attacks, Sweep, Triggered attacks like the Follow Through Attack - there are too many exceptions for me to agree that "one attack per person per phase" is really the "core" of HERO.

 

Also, comments by Hyper-Man (and my own initial reaction) aside, I don't think this is a "replacement" for Autofire. I think this does something different enough to warrant consideration for inclusion in the toolkit.

 

Feel free, everyone, to convince me further, or convince me otherwise.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests we think on the matter further.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

Rate Of Fire (Advantage)

Gary, let me know if anything needs to be changed.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I'd use the version in the Beholder thread. I've made a few refinements in the power since the original post, including using a 4th die for the roll and reducing ROF by 1 for non-standard attacks. It seems more balanced this way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I'm all for extracting more information from dice rolls, and this rings that bell. I am slightly concerned that it leads to additional rolling, which can slow things down a bit, but I can live with that.

 

The chance of a second (or subsequent) hit is (largely) independent of the skill of the person throwing the barrage (largely, because low rolls will tend to hit anyway and the skilled character can hit with higher rolls but ANYONE can hit with lower rolls - which I like. There is a slight skill effect, but it is peripheral).

 

A few points though:

 

1. This seems like a mechanic that will have limited applicability: most times you know in advance how many attacks you are going to launch - just not how many will hit. This feels like some sort of sequence attack, where you do not know how far you'll get before you screw the pooch, so to speak.

 

2. For clarity, if an attack MISSES but the Barrage Die is below the ROF, can you still roll another attack.

 

3. I'm not in favour of being able to apply this advantage to attack with multiple slots in an MP where the pool does not have enough points to 'power' the multiple slots at the same time. MP is already a MASSIVE cost break.

 

4. To an extent this hands a combat over to luck: most characters can take 2-5 campaign average attacks before falling unconscious (huge generalisation, of course): you could easily deliver that in the first phase. It is almost like the KA STUN LOTTO debate - you are getting pretty impressively volatile results here.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

First of all: Before I get into the criticism, Gary, I want to say that I'm intrigued by this idea and you may be onto something.

 

Crossposting from the Beholder thread:

 

 

 

And in my opinion, this Advantage (whatever we call it - I don't like "Rate of Fire" either) shouldn't allow that either. Not for Multipowers.

 

A Multipower is a reserve pool of points that can be assigned to one or more of several preselected Powers. As I recall it, you decide how those points are distributed at the beginning of your phase, and then they stay that way until your next phase.

 

What you're proposing is to have the ability to change that distribution more than once a phase. That's not quite violating the principle that there are only so many points - the points are being redistributed, not put in one slot and in another slot at the exact same time - but it's close enough to make me think carefully about it.

 

It's like saying that even if you've already used a Combat Level to add to the OCV of one attack this phase you can use the same level again to add to another attack.

 

I would say that IF such a thing should be allowed, the Advantage must be on the Multipower Reserve of points as well as on any slots that can be used this way.

 

For that matter, if you put the Advantage on Combat Skill Levels, maybe you can recycle those too.

 

Multipower aside, I'd say that the ability to make another attack is not the same as the ability to make another attack with a different attack Power. I think the ability to make more attacks with different powers should be an even bigger Advantage, and of course it should be bought on both of the attacks. And yes, that definitely applies to Multipowers, if they're to be allowed to switch slots.

 

Now, switching from a Multipower attack to another attack that's outside the Multipower is something else again. If that's what you want to be able to do, maybe you only need the Advantage on the slot (or slots) and not on the Reserve.

 

 

From my point of view, throwing a RKA and a EB isn't vastly superior to throwing 2 RKAs. An exception might be a flash or entangle followed by a RKA or EB. But that can be fixed as stating that the target retains its original DCV until all attacks are resolved.

 

The only truly unbalancing effect would be if you threw repeated NNDs or Ego Attacks, or Drains, or other non-standard attacks. That's why I included a specific mechanism for balancing that.

 

 

I think it might be a good idea if, every time the Advantage succeeds in granting an extra attack, it "ticks down" by one. So if you only had it at the first level, it would only grant one extra attack. Then again, this may "nerf" it to the point of not being worthwhile at all....still, the "open ended" nature of it if one can just keep rerolling as long as one remains lucky concerns some of us.

 

Probabilities aside, I have seen people make rolls that are literally one in ten million.

 

That would nerf the advantage far too much. Yes it's possible that someone gets 10 shots in a row. It's also possible that the same person gets only 1 shot each in 10 separate attacks. Overall, the probabilities should wash out.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I'm all for extracting more information from dice rolls, and this rings that bell. I am slightly concerned that it leads to additional rolling, which can slow things down a bit, but I can live with that.

 

The chance of a second (or subsequent) hit is (largely) independent of the skill of the person throwing the barrage (largely, because low rolls will tend to hit anyway and the skilled character can hit with higher rolls but ANYONE can hit with lower rolls - which I like. There is a slight skill effect, but it is peripheral).

 

A few points though:

 

1. This seems like a mechanic that will have limited applicability: most times you know in advance how many attacks you are going to launch - just not how many will hit. This feels like some sort of sequence attack, where you do not know how far you'll get before you screw the pooch, so to speak.

 

2. For clarity, if an attack MISSES but the Barrage Die is below the ROF, can you still roll another attack.

 

3. I'm not in favour of being able to apply this advantage to attack with multiple slots in an MP where the pool does not have enough points to 'power' the multiple slots at the same time. MP is already a MASSIVE cost break.

 

4. To an extent this hands a combat over to luck: most characters can take 2-5 campaign average attacks before falling unconscious (huge generalisation, of course): you could easily deliver that in the first phase. It is almost like the KA STUN LOTTO debate - you are getting pretty impressively volatile results here.

 

 

1) The randomness is part of the fun.

 

2) Yes, you can continue attacking even if you miss as long as you maintain RIF.

 

3) See my previous post.

 

4) If you're paying +1/4 to +1 on an advantage, you're not getting that much damage through against credible opponents per shot, unless you use something like a NND which has its own balancing mechanism in my Advantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I think the problem - like the stun multiplier - is that the results will be highly randomised. The probabilities average OK, but the mean is unreliable.

 

I think if you allow multiple attack types then you should apply them all simultaneously to the character as they are at the START of the attack sequence, so a flash, a drain and an EB would all apply to the normal CV and DEF. Next phase they guy might be in trouble but he'll survive that first hit.

 

Also to clarify, each attack would presumably work seperately: no adding for stun purposes and such.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

1) The randomness is part of the fun.

 

Fun for some, perhaps. Mind you I was not criticising the randomness so much as the applicability: there are not many sfx where you have no idea how many times you will attack until afterwards.

 

2) Yes' date=' you can continue attacking even if you miss as long as you maintain RIF.[/quote']

 

OK

 

3) See my previous post.

 

I was talking here about MPs. If you had a 100 point MP Pool and 5 50 point slots (5 points ultra) I see no reason you should not use two slots for this, or an MPA. Allocate pool to both slots, use them. If the idea is that you can cycle through slots you can not allocate points to at the start of the phase (before any attack rolls and such) then I'd be dead set against.

 

4) If you're paying +1/4 to +1 on an advantage' date=' you're not getting that much damage through against credible opponents per shot, unless you use something like a NND which has its own balancing mechanism in my Advantage.[/quote']

 

Oh, I agree - AoE is a classic example where a 6d6 radius EB is pretty useless compared to a 12d6 EB, but a 4d6 radius NND is useful. This sort of advantage is ultimately only ever going to be used for advantage stacking in a point capped game, or for delivering lots of KAs on the basis that you'll get a decent stun multiple eventually.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I was talking here about MPs. If you had a 100 point MP Pool and 5 50 point slots (5 points ultra) I see no reason you should not use two slots for this, or an MPA. Allocate pool to both slots, use them. If the idea is that you can cycle through slots you can not allocate points to at the start of the phase (before any attack rolls and such) then I'd be dead set against.

 

What's the difference in using a 3d6 RKA and 9d6 EB as 2 separate slots in a MP, vs 2 3d6 RKAs? Both are 90 total points of power, and the 1st person did pay extra for the slots compared to the 2nd person.

 

Remember, there's no guarantee that you'll even get a 2nd shot in any particular attack sequence.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

I'd use the version in the Beholder thread. I've made a few refinements in the power since the original post' date=' including using a 4th die for the roll and reducing ROF by 1 for non-standard attacks. It seems more balanced this way.[/quote']

Updated.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

What's the difference in using a 3d6 RKA and 9d6 EB as 2 separate slots in a MP, vs 2 3d6 RKAs? Both are 90 total points of power, and the 1st person did pay extra for the slots compared to the 2nd person.

 

Remember, there's no guarantee that you'll even get a 2nd shot in any particular attack sequence.

 

If you buy your 45 point power at a +1 ROF 3 advantage you get a 50%chance of a second attack (and a 25% chance of a 3rd and so on).

 

Over 16 attacks, you'll get 8+4+2+1 extra attacks on average: almost double, and it tends towards doubling as the number of attacks increases.

 

At the same price you could have paid for 2 attacks and done a guaranteed doubled damage through defenses each time. With ROF sometimes you wipe out the opposition in one hit, sometimes you only hit once.

 

You mentioned using a separate die rather than one of the 'to hit' dice. I'm not sure if that is the current version.

 

We may be talking at cross purposes: let me clarify -

 

Are you saying that a 45 point pool with the ROF/3 advantage and 2 slots (9d6 EB and 3d6 RKA), you should be able to switch slots with each successful additional attack?

 

I agree that the effect may be similar to a 90 point pool with no advantages for a 2 slot MP, but for a 4 slot MP, potentially you can switch attacks once you've seen how effective the first one is: MPAing a larger pool does not allow that.

 

I see that as a potentially substantial advantage, which simply buying a larger MP pool does not give you.

 

In any event, the calculation only applies to ROF/3: if you start with ROF 2, 1 in 3 hits allow another attack:

 

27 attacks give you 9+3+1= 13 attacks, or 1.5 times the number of successful attacks

 

ROF/1 allows 1 in 6 attacks to repeat:

 

Over 36 attacks you get 6+1 = 7 additional attacks, nearly 1/4

 

The same advantage would work with MPs for ROF/1 and ROF/2, but you could not do the same thing with a larger MP pool.

 

I return however to my main objection that this is an interesting mechanic that will be difficult to apply in game - there are very few situations where you have no idea how many attacks you will launch until afterwards.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

 

...You mentioned using a separate die rather than one of the 'to hit' dice. I'm not sure if that is the current version...

See my write up of this mechanic in this thread for the current version he is referring to.

 

Also, keep in mind that using two separate powers as you described would suffer the Multiple Power Attack restrictions while this mechanic does not.

 

- Christopher Mullins