So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

[Thia Halmades]

How do you hurt me? I'm probably still susceptible to flash, and I could certainly be tagged with a heavy enough attack, but that's a lot of dice to chuck. I'm just trying to break the game, and buying a spell as armor is fairly cheap.

 

Ground rules: You're in a Fantasy campaign, so you shouldn't use a "spell" over 150 active, although "powers" for demons could apply. Any spell structure you can think of is valid, as are basic ideas of how different things may or may not work. For example, would AVLD work to defeat this?

 

Thoughts?

[Old Man]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Well, if we're flipping 150 active point spells around, I could just hit you with a 15d6 RKA and do about 20 BODY on average through your force field. Maybe I'll just make it a 10d6 explosion to be sure I hit you with it, probably won't kill you outright though.

 

Even at 60 active points (the same as your force field) a 12d6 EB will do some stun damage when it hits. Not much, but some.

 

In general, though, armor/force field are too cheap in FH, so as the GM I'd have given you The Eye when you came to me with your 30/30 armor in the first place.

[dbsousa]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Any attack bought with NND (not vs. whatever natural substance thwarts magic in your world) should do the trick, as should any mental attack (Ego Blast, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, etc...)

[OddHat]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

The above responses cover most of my reaction as well. If you're allowing a 60 point defense (30 PD / 30 ED FF), then a 60 point attack (12d6 EB, 4d6 RKA) will still get through. There are also all the Mental powers, Drains, Transfers, NNDs, AVLDs, AP and Penetrating attacks, etc.

 

I probably can't hurt you with an ordinary non-magical sword as long as your Stone Skin spell is up, but that's kind of the point.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

How do you hurt me?

 

poison your drink

 

choke you

 

Transform (armor to acid)

 

push you into a hole full of water

[Thia Halmades]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Sort of the line I was thinking along. I also considered giving any PC with that level of defense (a 5th level spell) the eye when they came in, I'm also wondering if Ghost Touch or some other effect on a blade could "ignore" armor. For example.

 

In d20 there's a series of attacks that bypass armor and go straight to body (only defended by your PD, basically). A Mage Armor of this magnitude will likely ignore that. I also know it gets more expensive as it becomes usable on others and even more expensive as you tack Continuing Charge on it. So the answers are:

 

Gasses/Poisons - what about AP attacks? If the armor isn't hardened, can I slash it with a standard AP?

[Archon]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Thia,

 

If this is looking through ways to hurt your sorcerer with his 60 AP powers in the EC, let me make a suggestion. Lower the overall AP. A 60 AP level for Fantasy Hero is just too high for the average spell. That's superhero level action and supers just don't feel threatened. Reserve the 60 AP level for those long casting time major incantations. Not for the everyday spells.

 

That's my $0.02 and you know what inflation has done to that.

 

Archon

[OddHat]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Sort of the line I was thinking along. I also considered giving any PC with that level of defense (a 5th level spell) the eye when they came in' date=' I'm also wondering if [i']Ghost Touch[/i] or some other effect on a blade could "ignore" armor. For example.

 

In d20 there's a series of attacks that bypass armor and go straight to body (only defended by your PD, basically). A Mage Armor of this magnitude will likely ignore that. I also know it gets more expensive as it becomes usable on others and even more expensive as you tack Continuing Charge on it. So the answers are:

 

I'd just use AP or Penatrating for that. Buy the weapon that way, or buy a spell that makes a sword a super-cutter with a naked advantage, UBO, plus whatever else seems appropriate. It's not that expensive. You can get into NNDs or AVLDs that do body if you like, and it still won't get that much over the 60 active points the defensive spell cost the player. Or, you could just let the attacker have a great big honking HKA.

 

what about AP attacks? If the armor isn't hardened, can I slash it with a standard AP?

 

Yes.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

dunno, I've always found Drain Armor to be usefull.

 

I've built a Supers level MagicUser/Fighter/Bardi-sh character and he has trouble hurting things if thier armour is too high, mainly because he's more of a buff kinda guy than a straigth fighter. If I need him to hurt someone with our 60 point AP cap and they have too much armour, I convert his spell pool to Drain armour. Since his special effects have to be weather/serpent god related I just call it "acid rain" and move on with it.

 

You can buy a decent ammount of drain with 60 AP, and you can use it again and again.

 

Of course Drain Body works well too, but he can't justify that in his spell pool.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

For your Ghost Touch, an NND or AVLD which does BOD would work. Expensive, though.

 

60 AP, huh? What about "9d6 Suppress Magic: 1 power at a time"? Two shots on average will make the 60 point Force Field ineffective. After that, anything will hurt him.

 

A 20d6 Dispel Force Field would also work, on average, in one shot (or 16d6 vs any one magical power, if you haymaker it). He can reactivate the spell, but that means he has to meet whatever conditions exist on reactivating his spell.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

For your Ghost Touch, an NND or AVLD which does BOD would work. Expensive, though.

 

60 AP, huh? What about "9d6 Suppress Magic: 1 power at a time"? Two shots on average will make the 60 point Force Field ineffective. After that, anything will hurt him.

 

A 20d6 Dispel Force Field would also work, on average, in one shot (or 16d6 vs any one magical power, if you haymaker it). He can reactivate the spell, but that means he has to meet whatever conditions exist on reactivating his spell.

 

yeah, I've used the dispel and supress on armour aswell and it's worked fine.

 

I guess it's all a matter of what kind of thing you are looking for to get past it. There really are so many ways.

[Old Man]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Suppress Magic

 

Poke with pointy object of choice.

 

or

 

Xd6 RKA/HKA AP or Pen

 

or

 

Find Weakness

Find Weakness

Find Weakness

 

Stab

Stab

Stab

[Manic Typist]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Here's the nonmagical way.

 

Buy some kerosene, lamp oil, whatever. A bucket should do it. Douse the character. Set it alight.

 

This probably won't be enough to hurt them through the forcefield. However, it will be more than enough to make them basically a walking fireball........ thus, all oxygen would be used up before it could reach them. They would suffocate. Seriously. This is one of the biggest dangers faced by people who do stunts with flames. Even when they set themselves on fire, their primary concern is oxygen, since they can only deal with the fire if they are concious.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Here's the nonmagical way.

 

Buy some kerosene, lamp oil, whatever. A bucket should do it. Douse the character. Set it alight.

 

This probably won't be enough to hurt them through the forcefield. However, it will be more than enough to make them basically a walking fireball........ thus, all oxygen would be used up before it could reach them. They would suffocate. Seriously. This is one of the biggest dangers faced by people who do stunts with flames. Even when they set themselves on fire, their primary concern is oxygen, since they can only deal with the fire if they are concious.

 

He he he, I like it....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

I don't think they'd suffocate from having a Mage Armor up, but I'll certainly keep the idea in mind. I also read Slaughterhouse Five and I still have that scene in my head...

[Onyxclaw]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

I guess that would depnd on the SFX, if the mage armour is self contained and provides them with oxygen, than no. But if it's not and all of the oxygen around them is now gone...they would suffocate.

 

Being in titanium armour or having the "scale of the fish" mage armour protects you from punches...not from running out of oxygen.

 

Whereas, the Aura of Divine Protection, might

[Killer Shrike]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

D&D Ghost touch weapons just affect desolid.

 

I think you mean "Brilliant Energy" weapons, which ignore Armor but are stopped by Force Effects. NND Does Body, with Force Effects named as the exclusion for the NND covers it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

I did mean Brilliant Energy, gracias as always, KS. So a Force Wall or similar Force Armor would stop it? Good to know.

 

If you buy Armor, as a spell, would it count as a Force Effect if you call it Mage Armor, or would it count as "armor"?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

As far as you basic root question, which boils down to how do Defenses scale vs Attacks:

 

The proportion between defenses and attacks scale proportionately.

 

1 DEF costs 3 character points. 1d6 damage costs 5 characters points and averages 3.5 / 1 (STUN/BODY) damage

 

 

30/30 Armor costs 90 AP. 90 AP of EB is 18d6. 90 AP of RKA is 6d6.

 

18d6 averages 45 STUN and 18 BODY.

 

6d6K averages 21 BODY and around 54 STUN

 

 

So, basically, on average an equivalent amount of character points in Armor will stop all BODY from an equivalent amount of character points in a standard attack power, and a good deal of the STUN.

 

It doesnt really matter exactly what point range you are looking at -- it is a relative ratio. Every 3 DEF stops an average of 1d6 damage.

 

However, what does change is that if characters arent also scaling their CON, STUN, and to a lesser extent BODY as well, then the edge goes to Attacks as the AP rises -- the overage has more impact. ie -- its all well in good that your 30/30 Armor stopped my 18 BODY and 45 STUN average attack, but if your CON is a 14 then you are still Con Stunned, and if your total STUN is just 30 then you can only take two such hits.

 

 

 

And that illustrates a truism inherent to the HERO System -- over a long enough timeline / exposure to opposition with various abilities monodimensional characters suffer, and well balanced characters thrive.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

I did mean Brilliant Energy' date='[/i'] gracias as always, KS. So a Force Wall or similar Force Armor would stop it? Good to know.

 

If you buy Armor, as a spell, would it count as a Force Effect if you call it Mage Armor, or would it count as "armor"?

If you build it with ANY power and state the SFX as being a "FORCE" effect, then it would stop it.

 

Its up to the GM to ensure that the Power's build jives with the SFX.

 

In fact, I built Mage Armor using the Armor power:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry&Category=Evocation#Mage Armor

[Outsider]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

There's lots of ways to defeat a High DEF Types (HDTs) without just using a bigger hammer.

 

As mentioned, use fire. Even if it doesnt actually hurt the HDT, it may limit his recoveries due to a lack of oxygen, and, if intense enough, act as a flash or darkness (flames/smoke) obscuring his senses.

 

Any sort of Entangle, be it spell based, a simple net/lasso, leading the HDT into a bog/mire, or even just grappling him.

 

Mass attackers using regular sized attacks, if you arent using standard damage rules. Sure you have 30 PD, but 3 dozen archers doing 2d6 will still put through some stun, and since they are using ranged attacks, they dont all have to be neatly bunched up for the fireball pre-emptive/counter attack.

 

Or have an opposing caster create a spell that tacks an AVLD/Does BODY (applicable defences = any non-magical ones) advantage onto his henchmen's weapons.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Actually, if you want loads of ways to take him out, send your PC's up against a spellcaster with the same spell - I bet they'll happily help you out there!

[Rapier]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

How do you hurt me? I'm probably still susceptible to flash, and I could certainly be tagged with a heavy enough attack, but that's a lot of dice to chuck. I'm just trying to break the game, and buying a spell as armor is fairly cheap.

 

Ground rules: You're in a Fantasy campaign, so you shouldn't use a "spell" over 150 active, although "powers" for demons could apply. Any spell structure you can think of is valid, as are basic ideas of how different things may or may not work. For example, would AVLD work to defeat this?

 

Thoughts?

 

Penetrating - Guaranteed damage

 

Armour Piercing - Halves the DEF...now only 15 rDEF

[Old Man]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

Penetrating - Guaranteed damage

 

Armour Piercing - Halves the DEF...now only 15 rDEF

 

 

1 pip RKA, Pen, Autofire 5, Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, Invisible Power Effects, No Range Modifiers, 1 Hex Accurate, Usable Simulataneously by Others, Indirect. 45 pts or so...

 

"You take 3 BODY, 9 STUN."

 

"From where?"

 

"You don't know"

 

"On phase 3 you take 6 BODY, 18 STUN."

 

"From where?"

 

"You can't see where it's coming from."

 

"On phase 6 you take 6 BODY, 18 STUN."

 

"Wait wait, what about my Mage Armor?"

 

"It's getting through it."

 

"On phase 9 you take 9 BODY, 27 STUN."

 

...

[OddHat]

Re: So if I have 30 rPD/30 rED armor...

 

1 pip RKA, Pen, Autofire 5, Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, Invisible Power Effects, No Range Modifiers, 1 Hex Accurate, Usable Simulataneously by Others, Indirect. 45 pts or so...

 

"You take 3 BODY, 9 STUN."

 

"From where?"

 

"You don't know"

 

"On phase 3 you take 6 BODY, 18 STUN."

 

"From where?"

 

"You can't see where it's coming from."

 

"On phase 6 you take 6 BODY, 18 STUN."

 

"Wait wait, what about my Mage Armor?"

 

"It's getting through it."

 

"On phase 9 you take 9 BODY, 27 STUN."

 

...

 

 

Penetrating is a meaningless advantage for a 1 Pip RKA. Make it AVLD: Flash Def.