The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

[Toadmaster]

Some discussion of this has started growing over in the Upcoming Ultimate Books thread since Steve basically said DOJ isn't interested in this book further discussion of it really doesn't seem appropriate over there, so I thought I would be proactive and start another thread (particularly since I seem to be the one doing most of the talking ). You can read the prior comments over there if interested http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40126 but lets try to keep any discussion here so we don't hijack Steve's thread.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I'm going to try to quote the comments up to this point here, hope nobody minds being quoted out of thread. If you do or if I missed a comment let me know and I'll edit.

 

OK, as promised, here's a list of some "Ultimate" topics we probably aren't going to do, just to save you time in making your suggestions.

 

We have no interest in, or plans to do, an "Ultimate Villain" book.

 

We have no interest in, or plans to do, an "Ultimate Disadvantages" book. I find it difficult to imagine a more dull book to write, and I doubt it would sell beyond a small core of Hero fans.

 

We have no interest in, or plans to do, Ultimate books focusing on more specific single-genre topics (e.g., The Ultimate Fighter, The Ultimate Netrunner). We want the Ultimate books to have broad applicability across genres (even if some tend to emphasize one or two genres). If we wanted to do more specific books like these, we'd create another unified title/line for them.

 

We have no interest in, or plans to do, an Ultimate book about "environments." If we ever wanted to cover that topic, I doubt it would take an entire book, and I wouldn't really classify it as part of the Ultimate line, since Ultimate books tend to focus, to at least some degree, on player characters or things PCs have.

 

More as I think of them.

 

 

BY all means I am interested in Ultimate Energy Projector first and foremost. I'm eagerly interested in completing the set of sourcebooks about classic superheroic archetypes. I might be interested in buying all the others except Ultimate Weapons (I prefer powers-focused characters to weapon-focused ones).

 

I would also be highly interested In Ultimate Disadvantage, but less so than Energy Projector.

 

 

I would really like to see the Ultimate disadvantage (or character whathave you, not really sure what to call it) but basically a book of the many variable character features like disadvantages, perks etc. It would be nice to be able to just flip to page 27 and find Necrophobia or page 11 for alcoholism instead of fooling around with trying to build disads and such everytime.

 

I highly disagree with the idea that it would be a poor seller, the one area GURPS seems to have HERO beat is the fact so much is spelled out for the players, you don't have to figure out exactly how to build a disadvantage, or a reputation etc, in fact that was one of the main uses we had for GURPS (besides using it as a break from HERO occasionally) was the lists of disads and such since it made it easier for players to come up with disads (particularly the newer players).

 

The fact that it may be dull to write shouldn't enter into it, too bad its a job, I love my job but I have to admit I don't like every aspect of it, but I do those things out of neccessity. You don't want to write it farm it out, someone already had a pretty good start for one online (but I've lost the link).

 

My second choice would be the Ultimate Automaton, I'm not particularly interested in most of the others although I'll probably buy most of them when they come out.

 

 

Actually' date=' [b']Toadmaster[/b], I partially agree with you here. However, were I to [threadjack] a moment and stick my opinion out there where it may or may not be appreciated, I'd go with a revision of Sidekick. Effectively, my idea is to rewrite Sidekick into something more akin to a "Player's Handbook" - here's a whole bunch of stuff, all neatly spelled out for you.

 

Here are some basic genre tropes and the brush strokes of HERO and what it can do (dern near anything). Here are some classic character concepts; here's how they work in different worlds. Got Disads? We've spelled out a bunch, and a set of "chained" disadvantages for characters who have this as part of an over-riding background structure.

 

Here're the combat rules and examples. Here are basic powers you can take - if you want to build powers, you need to buy FREd. Here're some spells from The Turakian Age - this book goes well with Fantasy HERO if that's your genre (shameless plug).

 

However, that's me. That theme would cover the whole thing; it would go into detail about varying bits and pieces of different genres, give sample characters, cover "general combat" and give the general vehicle combat rules (for future Star Pirates and Dogfighters). But all the really hard core stuff comes in supplements. Basically a giant hook.

 

[/threadjack]

 

 

First, actually, I DO like the idea of an Ultimate Disadvantage book. I see it as how to enforce disads, how to build them, lots of examples/laundry list, guidelines for disads as occasionally advantageous, and so on.

 

But, I strongly disagree in going too far with this and making it GURPS-like. In fact, with all due respect (especially since I have appreciated many of your ideas in the past and I do read your posts with interest), I vehemently oppose "GURPS-izing" HERO. In some part it's philosophical - GURPS' appeal is, as you say, in its extreme detail and its lengthy nuance. HERO's is as a coherent toolkit (I fear HERO's encroaching detail and ruile-by-exception, but that certainly been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, though I am sure I shall again as I am pretty passionate on this point). HERO is for gamers who want to build, not gamers who want to be handed everything, at least wherein HERO does not package a particular setting or specific game (which I DO support doing), and the Ultimate series is an extension of this toolkit approach. I don't want to get too deep into it, but I'm not trying to say GURPS can't be used that way and I'm not trying to say HERO doesn't have elements of a rules system with bits of the construction process hidden away...but by and large, these are the system differentiators. As such, even if we had a laundry list of Disads in a UD book, it couldn't work like GURPS' arbitrary assignment of values to disads, it would have to have dials or discussion for how to be more or less frequent and intense and so on, with notes about campaign specificity. (Again, I'm not trying to unfairly impugn GURPS, I do realize, having just recently read through this part of it, that GURPS does make note of this to a degree, but certainly not in the variable construct HERO has)

 

Also, I detest GURPS' assignment of values to many of its Disads because they often don't seem right at all and don't reflect per-game variance, along with a lack of clear direction on modifying those values (yes, I know they have guidance, but it is not as mechanical as HERO).

 

Sorry, as I said I'm passionate on this and while there is a lot to like about GURPS, I am really hardcore about keeping HERO at arms' length from its cousin.

 

 

I agree with Zorn, and I think HERO already does a pretty good job of differentiating its "laundry list" books from the ultimate line.

 

For example, we have the ultimate vehicle and we also have a vehicle sourcebook.

 

The ultimate character (ultimate disad/perk/or whatever) could be done similarly if such a "disad sourcebook" type product was marketable.

 

That isn't to say that there isn't some creep of the laundry list of constructs into other HERO books (which happens and is necessary, IMO) but I think HERO continues to do an excellent job of stopping itself from doing what so many other game systems do, which is simply publish books with new pre-constructed options.

 

 

I think you misunderstood my point, in my experience disads are an area that many are somewhat confused by or argue over, GURPS with its lists of disads became a good resource for ideas of disads to use in HERO particularly for newer players (by their effect you could kind of figure out how best to build them, so players could look through the lists and then the more experienced players could help them build it), we did not just pull a disad out of GURPS and use the write up from GURPS, they were used for ideas because HERO doesn't really give many examples of disads (particularly 4th ed and earlier). I also have found disads tend to be heavily abused (how often do you run across disads that really are not, or GM's that make the disad far more of a problem that its worth) and I find most are fairly boring with many of the same ones seen over and over and over, why? I think its because they are established and known so they are "safe". Malaria could be a really interesting colorful disad but many players would take a few minutes trying to figure it out, argue with the GM a bit and then say *#@% it, I'll take another hunted. Disads should add flavor to the character, not just be an after thought.

 

I am not suggesting a list of "official" disads that are the only ones allowed like GURPS, but a large listing of pre-built disads would be helpful to many, because of the way HERO builds disads they would be far more flexible than GURPS, so the listed disads could easily be modified leaving HERO's reputation of flexibility intact.

 

I have a very hardtime believing an Ultimate Skill book is viable but an Ultimate Disad book isn't. I mean it could include not only lists of pre-made disads but ideas for designing disads, ideas to help players pick disads for their characters, in terms of understanding the possible effects in play so they don't take things they are not prepared to accept in the game, suggestions for how to play disads and ideas to help make disads more interesting and a part of the character instead of some stuff they picked to get extra points. It could also include ideas for GMs for incorporating disads into the game, alternative ideas for using disads (GURPS quirks, or the use of mandatory disads in a campaign for example) and even how GM's can alter the game by the number of points of disads allowed (a 50+25 game vs a 50+100 game). Yes some of this is covered already but there is plenty of room for more detail.

 

Examples of disads are included in almost every book done so far, why? probably because more ideas and examples of disads are a good idea, but for some reason The combat handbook (a collection of parts of several books) is viable but a similar book of disads isn't? In my opinion disads are a big part of HERO but largely misunderstood and under/over utilized in the game (many games pretty well ignore them for the most part while others get hung up on trying to work them into the game all the time).

 

The "Ultimate Disadvantage" could be far more than just a book of afflictions, mental disorders and social issues.

 

So in answer to your comments I think we are actually on the same page HERO and GURPS need to keep their own identities

 

I don't want HERO to become GURPS or the reverse, both games have their highs and lows and they should remain similar but differant, cousins are not supposed to marry, but its ok to admit your cousin is hot.

 

Perhaps we should move this into a thread of its own before we hijack Steve's thread, he seems pretty adament that he isn't going to consider this book.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toadmaster

I think you misunderstood my point, in my experience disads are an area that many are somewhat confused by or argue over, ...

 

 

Just as a brief side comment, I never had that experience.

 

 

Quote:

...GURPS with its lists of disads became a good resource for ideas of disads to use in HERO particularly for newer players (by their effect you could kind of figure out how best to build them, so players could look through the lists and then the more experienced players could help them build it), we did not just pull a disad out of GURPS and use the write up from GURPS, they were used for ideas because HERO doesn't really give many examples of disads (particularly 4th ed and earlier). I also have found disads tend to be heavily abused (how often do you run across disads that really are not, or GM's that make the disad far more of a problem that its worth) and I find most are fairly boring with many of the same ones seen over and over and over, why? I think its because they are established and known so they are "safe". Malaria could be a really interesting colorful disad but many players would take a few minutes trying to figure it out, argue with the GM a bit and then say *#@% it, I'll take another hunted. Disads should add flavor to the character, not just be an after thought.

 

 

As to the latter part of this paragraph, I generally haven't seen that happen. I find most people love disads and make interesting ones, and this goes back to the old days when there wre very few examples. But thats not really relevant.

 

I would agree a UD book would concentrate on the "how to" and "ways to make disads interesting" and "what to do about disads that don't come into play/why disads don't have to come into play as punishing but as limiters of choices" (I think we need to strongly acknowledge that disads are about limiting choices sometimes, and nothing to do with some sort of specific "now something happens to you").

 

 

Quote:

I am not suggesting a list of "official" disads that are the only ones allowed like GURPS, but a large listing of pre-built disads would be helpful to many, because of the way HERO builds disads they would be far more flexible than GURPS, so the listed disads could easily be modified leaving HERO's reputation of flexibility intact.

 

 

We're on a similar page overall. I don't know how large a list of pre-built disads as such I'd do - I'd see more like a laundry list of phobias and so on as ideas, and an explanation of how they might come into play, but I don't think you need anything more than a general "how to" on applying frequency and commonality and all that, nothing that would need to or should be applied at the level of how we see USPD. But that doesn't mean we're disagreeing, I'm just refining the point here is all.

 

I don't disagree GURPS does have a neat list of cool ideas!

 

 

Quote:

I have a very hardtime believing an Ultimate Skill book is viable but an Ultimate Disad book isn't. I mean it could include not only lists of pre-made disads but ideas for designing disads, ideas to help players pick disads for their characters, in terms of understanding the possible effects in play so they don't take things they are not prepared to accept in the game, suggestions for how to play disads and ideas to help make disads more interesting and a part of the character instead of some stuff they picked to get extra points. It could also include ideas for GMs for incorporating disads into the game, alternative ideas for using disads (GURPS quirks, or the use of mandatory disads in a campaign for example) and even how GM's can alter the game by the number of points of disads allowed (a 50+25 game vs a 50+100 game). Yes some of this is covered already but there is plenty of room for more detail.

 

Examples of disads are included in almost every book done so far, why? probably because more ideas and examples of disads are a good idea, but for some reason The combat handbook (a collection of parts of several books) is viable but a similar book of disads isn't? In my opinion disads are a big part of HERO but largely misunderstood and under/over utilized in the game (many games pretty well ignore them for the most part while others get hung up on trying to work them into the game all the time).

 

The "Ultimate Disadvantage" could be far more than just a book of afflictions, mental disorders and social issues.

 

So in answer to your comments I think we are actually on the same page HERO and GURPS need to keep their own identities

 

I don't want HERO to become GURPS or the reverse, both games have their highs and lows and they should remain similar but differant, cousins are not supposed to marry, but its ok to admit your cousin is hot.

 

Perhaps we should move this into a thread of its own before we hijack Steve's thread, he seems pretty adament that he isn't going to consider this book.

 

 

Yup, we are actually on the same page! You just hit my psych lim on "be like GURPS" implications, a psych lim I acquired since I just recently read GURPS (actually still reading the 2nd book, kind of got bogged down in other things). Then MitchellS for some reason went and did so moments after you!

[hancock.tom]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

As Steve L. said, if the book only concentrates on disads, its going to have an extremely limited audience. I agree.

 

I would be part of that limited audience, as I would gladly buy a copy of such a book, but that and $1 (plus tax) will buy you one thing at the dollar store.

 

On the other hand, if you start to include more things to broaden the book's appeal (probably changing the title to "the ultimate character" or somesuch) it starts to look like its too much material for one book, doesn't it? Could disads, perks, talents, characteristics, or some combination contain enough good material to make the book marketable and still be small enough to be feasible?

 

Is much of this information already spread across multiple HERO books? Disads are usually fairly specific to the genre, and I think a lot of this information is already out there.

 

I'm not sure. Which makes me think this book won't happen, in any form, regardless of the fact that I would enjoy owning a copy.

 

Anyhow, we can still fantasize about all the nifty stuff that would go in the book (especially if it was the ultimate character instead of just disads), like hundreds of talents and/or ideas for talents, essentially a massive expansion of super-skills already available in DC.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I have to admit that having access to The Master List of Limitations has greatly diminished my desire for further compilations of pregenerated Disadvantages, official or otherwise. When I factor in the Index of published sample Disadvantages that's part of the free Hero Fifth Edition Indices, I feel pretty well provided with example Disads. Of course as these are web resources they're not available to everyone, but since they are freely available that would have to cut down the number of gamers that would be interested in a published compilation - likely the more devoted HERO gamers, many of whom use the web resources already.

 

As far as advice in using Disadvantages appropriately and creatively goes, that would probably make an excellent article in Digital Hero, but I'm skeptical that there would really be enough there to justify a separate book. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, though.

[gojira]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I think the ultimate disadvantage would pretty much involve being dead, wouldn't it?

 

Here's my write up:

 

-300 points. Phys Lim (Dead). You can't do anything because you're DEAD. You may take no actions. You may not make presence attacks or soliloquies. You just have to lie there and rot. You can hang out and hope that a necromancer or grave robbing henchman happens by and will involve you in the plot. But pretty much nothing is going to happen because you're DEAD. You do could also plan what you are going to do with the extra 300 points you got for being dead, which is fine, seeing as you are going to have lots of time on your hands. On the plus side, you are not affected by mental powers at all. On the down side (there's worse than being dead?), you can't abort to any manuvers, and since your body is likely already pretty negative, physical and energy attacks are going to mess you up good.

 

 

 

 

 

what?

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I have to admit that having access to The Master List of Limitations has greatly diminished my desire for further compilations of pregenerated Disadvantages' date=' official or otherwise. When I factor in the Index of published sample Disadvantages that's part of the free Hero Fifth Edition Indices, I feel pretty well provided with example Disads. Of course as these are web resources they're not available to everyone, but since they are freely available that would have to cut down the number of gamers that would be interested in a published compilation - likely the more devoted HERO gamers, many of whom use the web resources already.

 

As far as advice in using Disadvantages appropriately and creatively goes, that would probably make an excellent article in Digital Hero, but I'm skeptical that there would really be enough there to justify a separate book. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, though.

 

 

The Master list of limitations is the one I was looking for. I find it interesting that an ultimate energy projector or brick or skill, prebuilt powers (USPS, spacers toolkit) can fill a book but one on disads (or disads and power limitations) can't even fill a 128 pager? There is at least as much material there, phobias, diseases, mental illness, codes of behavior, injuries, reputations, social status etc plus some stuff on using and choosing disads. I guess I just feel like there is more than there is being mentioned, the website mentioned alone could fill a good chunk of a book.

 

Oh, well I have that site again so that takes care of alot of my issues.

[Phil]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I cant imagine many things duller than Ultimate Disadvantage. I'd never buy it, not least because I'm leaning increasingly towards the SAS token reward rather than HERO's traditional big pay-off. I'm just sick of seeing characters - homebrew and official - that look like they've squeezed every last point out of the disadvantage system with their code against killing, code against killing attacks, code against intentionally killing, code against hurting people on wednesdays and psychological aversions to facial hair...

 

Phil

[MisterBaldy]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

How about...

 

Susceptibility to Water?

 

Well, since the human body is approximately 90% water...you should be having that near death experience shortly after character creation!!!

 

Of course, if you have an alien physiology...your results may vary.

[Steve Long]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I find it interesting that an ultimate energy projector or brick or skill, prebuilt powers (USPS, spacers toolkit) can fill a book but one on disads (or disads and power limitations) can't even fill a 128 pager?

 

If you're implying that I at some point said there wouldn't be enough material to fill such a book, you're incorrect. I've never said any such thing as far as I can recall, and if someone else said it I don't agree. Filling such a book wouldn't be a problem. There are many problems with such a book, but lack of material ain't one.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I stand by using this as a spring board section for a revised Sidekick to get people into HERO. Sorry, had to say it. I think it's a good idea, but I wouldn't buy it; I would wholly endorse having it as a player reference. That's the thing with HERO - we can build anything, but mass appeal is a separate matter altogether. Part of that is what Steve wants to do, and part of that is what's reasonable.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

If you're implying that I at some point said there wouldn't be enough material to fill such a book' date=' you're incorrect. I've never said any such thing as far as I can recall, and if someone else said it I don't agree. Filling such a book wouldn't be a problem. There are many problems with such a book, but lack of material ain't one. [/quote']

 

A couple of the other posters have implied or actually come right out and said that.

 

We have no interest in, or plans to do, an "Ultimate Disadvantages" book. I find it difficult to imagine a more dull book to write, and I doubt it would sell beyond a small core of Hero fans.

 

This is a pretty negative comment towards the idea so I basically took it as this book will never happen because there isn't enough to make it worth doing. I can understand if you don't feel this isn't something that would sell, I disagree I think its sales would depend very much on how it was done, from some of the negative or less than constructive comments I think many misunderstand the idea I have.

Personally I can't imagine how it could be anymore dull to write than some of the other books (USPS must have been very exciting to write ) that have been done or are planned (not that they are bad but some things are more interesting than others, it doesn't effect their usefulness).

 

Personally I think the core of HERO fans would be less likely to want it than new players coming into the system, the old timers have a decent idea of how to work disads, the new players coming from systems with nothing like disads would be the ones I would target, those are the ones I've generally used the GURPS disads for.

 

 

As this is at best a many, many years down the road DOJ project would you consider it for the free stuff area if those of us who like the idea put something together?

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I cant imagine many things duller than Ultimate Disadvantage. I'd never buy it, not least because I'm leaning increasingly towards the SAS token reward rather than HERO's traditional big pay-off. I'm just sick of seeing characters - homebrew and official - that look like they've squeezed every last point out of the disadvantage system with their code against killing, code against killing attacks, code against intentionally killing, code against hurting people on wednesdays and psychological aversions to facial hair...

 

Phil

 

Actually the reason I support the idea is eactly to avoid the situations you mention. Provide more ideas and guidance for using disads to make them more useful, interestihg and be a part of the character instead of just a way to get more points (and typically how to get more points with the least pain). Have you ever designed a character around a power? how about a skill or set of skills? a theme (fire, music, gadgets etc), I would guess yes, I've seen many. Now how about a disad? probably not, I can't think of any I've seen but in fiction and real life I can name several, not all are necessarily going to be PC's but most could be in the right circumstances. Jack Nicholson in as good as it gets? Monk? Steven Hawkings? The doctor in ER with the crutches these characters disads are a major part of their character.

 

Can you see where a book with some detail for disads and how to use them could be more than just a way to get points?

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

While I agree with your sentiment that Disads can be difficult...especially when you are trying to come up with 100 or 150 or even 200 pts of them. However, for the most part only GMs really need to come up with hugely large lists of various Disads (mostly for NPCs). Most players only have a small number of characters and coming up with some Disads shouldn't be too difficult. Especially if character design starts at concept and develops powers instead of starting with a set of powers and trying to wrap a concept around it.

 

I would hate to see an entire book of Disads. It would be one book I would totally (and actively) boycott. There are plenty of lists on this board already of "Master Lists of Disads." I think the disads chapter could use a litte more example/in-depthness but that should be more than sufficient.

 

Wow, actively boycott? I can understand not being interested, I don't play Champions so I only buy a few books from that line so I could understand passing on a book you don't want but why would you feel so strongly against the idea that you would do something more than not buy it? I could understand if it was a product that offended you like the Ultimate Racist, or the Ultimate book of Vile acts, but a book of disads?

 

I don't see where having more material to work on disads diminishes the ability to add to the character, your comments are exactly the opposite of why I'd like to see the book, peoples "flaws" can be a huge part of their character but I don't see disads being used that way very often, I see lots of the same old thing, overconfidence, hunteds / watcheds, the occasional distinctive feature or rep, dependant NPC (usually used to advantage and should be a contact or a follower, at best as a GM plot hook).

[Steve Long]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

A couple of the other posters have implied or actually come right out and said that.

 

That's cool, they're welcome to think so. But as the guy who might write it, and who's already got over a hundred books to his authorial credit, I think they're flat wrong. I could fill 128 pages or more on the subject of Disads easily.

 

Personally I can't imagine how it could be anymore dull to write than some of the other books (USPS must have been very exciting to write

 

On the contrary, I rather enjoyed writing USPD. But powers and their manifestations are kind of interesting to me, whereas Disadvantages generally are not. As with many projects I might find it more enjoyable than I expect once I got into it, but it still wouldn't qualify as anything close to "fun" or "intriguing" the way virtually all of our other books seem to me. The only possible appeal would be satisfying my borderline OCD.

 

As this is at best a many, many years down the road DOJ project would you consider it for the free stuff area if those of us who like the idea put something together?

 

We'll consider virtually anything for the Free Stuff page that's done well and seems helpful, but we'd have to take steps to make sure it was excruciatingly clear that it wasn't an official book/document.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

BTW Toadmaster, if you haven't seen it before and it would be useful to you, Michael "Susano" Surbrook has translated many of the Disads from GURPS into HERO terms:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/newdisads.html

 

Adding these to the sources I mentioned above, I think that there are enough examples extant to get players' creative juices flowing. Of course it would be nice if they were all codified into one book, but their existing organization is pretty good.

 

I still think that a DH article on Disad use and abuse would be a helpful and interesting addition. Since I don't anticipate writing one myself, though, I'd be unwilling to bust anyone's chops about getting it done.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I just don't see why everyone is so passionate about having a book about disads. A book about character construction would make more sense, "The Ultimate Generator" or some such - something that goes into detail about how to design & build interesting PCs. There are countless pages that could be written about the drafting, conceptualizing and utilization of the HERO system to make any character come alive. Disads would be an inherent part of the document.

 

I guess I'm just standing by my original concept; redo Sidekick as a pure player's guide to HERO, and include this. I just... I don't see the draw of this book. I can only imagine people standing at the shelf going "Ultimate... Disadvantage? What a downer."

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I could fill 128 pages or more on the subject of Disads easily.

Well' date=' you're Steve Long. You could fill 128 pages or more on the subject of [i']toasters[/i].

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Well' date=' you're Steve Long. You could fill 128 pages or more on the subject of [i']toasters[/i].

 

Okay, The Ultimate Toaster, now we're talking! I loves me some warm and crispy baked goods.

[John Desmarais]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Ok, reading through this thread it's apparent that the folks who want such a book are pretty passionate about it, but in all honestly I can't see it having much practical appeal. So many disadvantages are priced based (in part) on "how often this will occur in your campaign" or "how limiting this is in your campaign" and that can be real subjective, varying wildly not just from genre to genre, but from one GM's style to another.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I think it might help of some of the pro-TUD people could spell out some of the specifics they'd like to see in the book. For example, some ideas I've had along these lines:

 

- A gathering-together of all of the "sample" Disadvantages from the rulebook, genre books, and other Ultimate books, with in-depth explanations of each.

 

- Extensions of 8-/11-/14- to also include 5- and 17-.

 

- Allowing levels of commonality between the current levels, for 3 or 8 points (I'm one of those guys who doesn't think that Disdvantages always need to come out in multiples of 5).

 

- Descriptions in both real-world and game terms of such things as alcoholism and other drug addictions, psychological addictions, mental illnesses, social restrictions of an ex-con, and so forth.

 

- How to model being Unlucky at just on particular area (Subtractors? Power Limitations on Disadvantages?).

 

- What exactly is meant when a Hunter has Non-Combat Influence, and how the Hunter can/would use it.

 

- How to have a campaign with multiple Hunters without letting the Hunters dominate the game (ditto DNPCs).

 

Those are just off the top of my head.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I just don't see why everyone is so passionate about having a book about disads. A book about character construction would make more sense, "The Ultimate Generator" or some such - something that goes into detail about how to design & build interesting PCs. There are countless pages that could be written about the drafting, conceptualizing and utilization of the HERO system to make any character come alive. Disads would be an inherent part of the document.

 

I guess I'm just standing by my original concept; redo Sidekick as a pure player's guide to HERO, and include this. I just... I don't see the draw of this book. I can only imagine people standing at the shelf going "Ultimate... Disadvantage? What a downer."

 

 

I have no problem with this except for the sidekick part, I have 5th ed, I have 5th ed revised, I have sidekick, don't make me buy them again. I have mixed thoughts on the idea of expanding side kick, part of me says it might be a good way to lure in more players but part of me also sees it as a drain on the resources that could be making more book I want. I some ways I think sidekick is too detailed, it is big enough that DOJ really has to sell it compared to GURPS Lite that SJG can just give away. Don't get me wrong Sidekick was and is a good idea, I'm just not convenced it should be a line of its own although I suppose you could support it with a line of "lite" genre books that cut out all the theory and just have some weapons,armor, critters and background (magic, who are the good guys. bad guys etc).

 

An Ultimate Character would be good but it would be big, while I would be happy to see such a thing or even a series of books covering various aspects of them (the ultimate perk, the ultimate stat etc) In my opinion the somewhat negative aspect of disads is why I would like to see something like this, I don't find people really have a problem picking something that gives them an advantage, disads often seem to be an excersize in making something look like it causes the PC a problem without actually causing the PC a problem.

 

Making disads be positive (even though they hinder the PC) is where I see the advantage to this. Its certainly not required, but then really none of the books are. I am actually surprised at the negative attention it has, I understand those who feel they don't need it but don't really get the I hate the idea part. In my opinion disads are one of the weakest and most misunderstood parts of the game, the comments about just padding the character for points simply reinforces this to me. Disads should be much more than just extra points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I don't hate it. I just don't get it. Clearly Steve feels he can fill an entire book with it, but I'm still asking the same question (and maybe I'm just missing your answer here) "Why would you want to?"

 

Eh, that's a good a way of putting it as any. What about this book are you so passionate about?

 

Further: What would you see in it, that would make it both good & approachable?

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I think it might help of some of the pro-TUD people could spell out some of the specifics they'd like to see in the book. For example, some ideas I've had along these lines:

 

- A gathering-together of all of the "sample" Disadvantages from the rulebook, genre books, and other Ultimate books, with in-depth explanations of each.

 

- Extensions of 8-/11-/14- to also include 5- and 17-.

 

- Allowing levels of commonality between the current levels, for 3 or 8 points (I'm one of those guys who doesn't think that Disdvantages always need to come out in multiples of 5).

 

- Descriptions in both real-world and game terms of such things as alcoholism and other drug addictions, psychological addictions, mental illnesses, social restrictions of an ex-con, and so forth.

 

- How to model being Unlucky at just on particular area (Subtractors? Power Limitations on Disadvantages?).

 

- What exactly is meant when a Hunter has Non-Combat Influence, and how the Hunter can/would use it.

 

- How to have a campaign with multiple Hunters without letting the Hunters dominate the game (ditto DNPCs).

 

Those are just off the top of my head.

 

Exactly, I don't see this as just a collection of disads but a book that expands the disad section, look at ideas for the various disads and show different ways to represent them. Give examples of disads that could be a phys lim or a psyc lim and how to decide which to make it or what the effect might be, example alcoholic (uncontrolable urge to drink and possible physical impact for not drinking, DTs) vs social drinker (habit and peer pressure).

 

Get into the frequency of occurance, how do you pick 8- vs 14- (it should be more than how many points you need). If your employer is a watched do you decide between 8-, 11-, 14- by the size of the employer? how secretive they are? if you take 14- does that mean they think you are up to something or simply that they watch all their employees closely and have a good network to watch you.

 

How as a GM should you use these disads, how many of you have been in games where the GM literally rolled for everybodies disads with the resulting game being more about the disads than the campaign? I have on a couple of occasions. How about games where everybody has to take a disad like subject to orders, if all the PC's work for the same place and they are sent on missions (which the campaign is based around) is that really a disad?

 

Basically flesh out the disad section, make it a real part of the system, make it more than extra points or a role playing crutch. Disads should be there to give characters extra point for having some character, not because the game is a 50+50 game. How about some guidence on letting player take more disads when approprite or how to encourage (reward) players for not using all their disad points if they don't have a concept for the disads.

 

and again more disad ideas that might be used to develop a character around a disad instead of simply working disads into the character.

[Steve Long]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Okay, The Ultimate Toaster, now we're talking! I loves me some warm and crispy baked goods.

 

As a matter of fact I got me a new toaster for Christmas.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

A book about character construction would make more sense.

I agree. And to be honest' date=' it's an angle I don't recall ever seeing tackled in exactly that way before. Most RPG books I've seen that are specifically about designing interesting, well-developed characters fall into one of three groups, and the first two deal mostly with creating the character-as-RPG-playing-piece, rather than with creating the character-as-a-well-realized-personality.

1. Thinly-disguised collections of crunchy bits, aimed at players who want to make their favored character types more powerful. These include the plethora of D&D books aimed at certain character classes (and stuffed with optional classes, kits, stunts, feats, and assorted doohickeys), as well as (to a much MUCH lesser extent) Hero's own Ultimate series.
   
2. Books full of randomness, to give uninspired players and GM's a kick-start (such as the Central Casting books from Task Force Games).
   
3. Books aimed at GMs. (In other words, it talks about building interesting, well-developed villains, but not about characters in general).

I think it would be great to see a book about the sort of stuff novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters think about when creating characters for their stories (motivation, psychology, inter-relation with the world and with other characters, etc.), but written with a slant specifically aimed at applying those concepts within the framework of creating those well-developed characters for a role-playing game. For example, it would touch on how internalized character traits -- which work fine in novels -- are hard to convey well in RPGs, and so on.

 

This would include, by necessity, a lot of discussion of Disadvantages, simply because they're the "crunchy bits" of the game engine where the character's character (so to speak) is the most perceptable. In fact, in terms of specific application to RPG mechanics, the Disadvantages section would certainly be the longest. It wouldn't be a laundry-list thing like the USPD, with gobs of pre-made Disads and values on page after page. But it would be a detailed look at how character traits convert themselves on paper into Disadvantages, and would of course have to include a lot of examples and discussion of setting values appropriately.

 

In other words, it would be about how to create an interesting, well-developed, cool character profile (as opposed to a character in the RPG-playing-piece sense of the term), in a way that's particularly suited to RPGs, and then how to translate that character study into the RPG's language. And since it isn't specifically aimed at PCs or bad guys, both players and GMs could benefit equally.

 

I think that'd be a great book... I'd buy that in heartbeat!