The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

As a matter of fact I got me a new toaster for Christmas.

But to be a really proper Steve Long toaster, it should have the Hero logo on one side and a HERO System write-up on the other.

 

(Or is that Dave Mattingly? Oh, wait; that's the kitchen sink. )

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I think it would be great to see a book about the sort of stuff novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters think about when creating characters for their stories (motivation, psychology, inter-relation with the world and with other characters, etc.), but written with a slant specifically aimed at applying those concepts within the framework of creating those well-developed characters for a role-playing game. For example, it would touch on how internalized character traits -- which work fine in novels -- are hard to convey well in RPGs, and so on.

 

This would include, by necessity, a lot of discussion of Disadvantages, simply because they're the "crunchy bits" of the game engine where the character's character (so to speak) is the most perceptable. In fact, in terms of specific application to RPG mechanics, the Disadvantages section would certainly be the longest. It wouldn't be a laundry-list thing like the USPD, with gobs of pre-made Disads and values on page after page. But it would be a detailed look at how character traits convert themselves on paper into Disadvantages, and would of course have to include a lot of examples and discussion of setting values appropriately.

 

In other words, it would be about how to create an interesting, well-developed, cool character profile (as opposed to a character in the RPG-playing-piece sense of the term), in a way that's particularly suited to RPGs, and then how to translate that character study into the RPG's language. And since it isn't specifically aimed at PCs or bad guys, both players and GMs could benefit equally.

 

I think that'd be a great book... I'd buy that in heartbeat!

Maybe it would be more appropriately titled The Ultimate Personality.

 

(Gotta go dust off that EZ Hero personality article....)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Maybe it would be more appropriately titled The Ultimate Personality.

Personally, I wouldn't make it part of the Ultimate series. To me, the Ultimate books are mostly about expanding game-rule options for particular powerset types. The book I was envisioning isn't about powersets at all, and is only secondarily about expanding game-rule options.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

One of my problems with the HERO system (despite it being my favorite overall game system) has always been the Disads. HERO seems to come from the school of gaming (and more broadly, writing) which esposes the belief that flaws are what make a character. I've always been lukewarm at best towards that position. While I find perfect characters that overcome all challenges -- external and internal, combat, social, whatever -- with style, grace, and smiling ease to be boring and cardboard, I also loath the school of writing that requires one to be sadistic towards the characters and that wallows in their shortcomings.

 

HERO takes this flaw-centered style to the point where a character can be quite interesting and fleshed-out, with plenty of plot and development potential, and it's not enough, because in-system the character's flaws aren't considered "enough" in terms of the points. I rarely find myself with too many points in Disads, and not because I'm creating perfect flawless people.

 

On superhero-level PCs, where I have to follow the assigned balance, I often end up with things that feel forced, or contrived, or inappropriate for that character, in order to hit the 150-point mark. My NPCs rarely have a full slate of Disads, although some have more than they would need by the book, and that doesn't bother me one bit.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Ok, here is what I would want to see as disad write ups, not just

 

Alcoholic Dependance, must have a drink evey hour or suffer incompetence, very common, addiction 15 pts

 

But a brief description of alcoholism / abuse, what it does to the body, how it would likely impact the game, how to include it in the game.

 

Levels of alcoholism, obviously the one above is pretty severe but it an be worse, people can die from not getting their alcohol. However many people are alcoholics at a much milder level, there are also those who really don't have a physical addiction but just like to drink too much, so I picture something like this.

 

Description (obviously this is fairly weak since its off the top of my head)

Alcoholism can be addictive, long term effects typically attack the liver. The disease is largely a psychological addiction but in more severe cases it can be a physical addiction, deprevation can cause flu like symptoms, seizures, halucinations and death. Alcohol poisoning can occur when the body cannot process the alcohol fast enough, this can lead to unconciousness, seizures and death. In some times and places alchohol is illegal which makes it harder to obtain (and some examples of the various times, places and penalties for drinking).

 

 

Extremely severe alcoholism

Dependence, very common, must have a drink every day or Suffer 1d6 damage, incompetence and weakness, addiction 25 pts

 

Severe alcoholism

Dependence, very common, must have a drink every day or Suffer incompetence and weakness, addiction 20 pts

 

Alcoholic

Dependence, very common, must have a drink every day or Suffer incompetence, addiction 15 pts

 

Mild alcoholic

Psych lim, common, often drinks to intoxication after work, accepts most offers to drink (must make ego roll to decline), moderate 10 pts

 

Binge drinker

Psych lim, uncommon, when pressured by peers the character has little resistance to excessive drinking (must make ego roll to decline), Strong 10 pts

 

Social drinker

Psych lim, uncommon, when in a social setting with alcohol the character often drinks (must make ego roll to decline) moderate 5 pts

 

Genre conventions of alcoholics (and ideas for playing them)

The lovable drunk (Otis from the Andy Grifith Show)

The falling down staggering drunk (pretty much any Dennis Hopper character)

The fuctioning drunk (lots to pick from particularly in movies of the 30-40's)

The Frat boy (beer bong!!!!!)

The closet drunk

 

etc

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I think it would be great to see a book about the sort of stuff novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters think about when creating characters for their stories (motivation, psychology, inter-relation with the world and with other characters, etc.), but written with a slant specifically aimed at applying those concepts within the framework of creating those well-developed characters for a role-playing game. For example, it would touch on how internalized character traits -- which work fine in novels -- are hard to convey well in RPGs, and so on.

 

This would include, by necessity, a lot of discussion of Disadvantages, simply because they're the "crunchy bits" of the game engine where the character's character (so to speak) is the most perceptable. In fact, in terms of specific application to RPG mechanics, the Disadvantages section would certainly be the longest. It wouldn't be a laundry-list thing like the USPD, with gobs of pre-made Disads and values on page after page. But it would be a detailed look at how character traits convert themselves on paper into Disadvantages, and would of course have to include a lot of examples and discussion of setting values appropriately.

 

In other words, it would be about how to create an interesting, well-developed, cool character profile (as opposed to a character in the RPG-playing-piece sense of the term), in a way that's particularly suited to RPGs, and then how to translate that character study into the RPG's language. And since it isn't specifically aimed at PCs or bad guys, both players and GMs could benefit equally.

 

I think that'd be a great book... I'd buy that in heartbeat!

 

Me too, that is a much better description of what I'd like than I could give

 

 

One of my problems with the HERO system (despite it being my favorite overall game system) has always been the Disads. HERO seems to come from the school of gaming (and more broadly, writing) which esposes the belief that flaws are what make a character. I've always been lukewarm at best towards that position. While I find perfect characters that overcome all challenges -- external and internal, combat, social, whatever -- with style, grace, and smiling east to be boring and cardboard, I also loath the school of writing that requires one to be sadistic towards the characters and wallows in their shortcomings.

 

HERO takes this flaw-centered style to the point where a character can be quite interesting and fleshed-out, with plenty of plot and development potential, and it's not enough, because in-system the character's flaws are considered "enough" in terms of the points. I rarely find myself with too many points in Disads, and not because I'm creating perfect flawless people.

 

On superhero-level PCs, where I have to follow the assigned balance, I often end up with things that feel forced, or contrived, or inappropriate for that character, in order to hit the 150-point mark. My NPCs rarely have a full slate of Disads, although some have more than they would need by the book, and that doesn't bother me one bit.

 

That pretty well describes my feelings as well, except I take it a step farther because I don't feel like disads get the detail and support they should get considering hw central they are to HERO charcter design.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I agree. And to be honest, it's an angle I don't recall ever seeing tackled in exactly that way before. Most RPG books I've seen that are specifically about designing interesting, well-developed characters fall into one of three groups, and the first two deal mostly with creating the character-as-RPG-playing-piece, rather than with creating the character-as-a-well-realized-personality.

 

 

I think it would be great to see a book about the sort of stuff novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters think about when creating characters for their stories (motivation, psychology, inter-relation with the world and with other characters, etc.), but written with a slant specifically aimed at applying those concepts within the framework of creating those well-developed characters for a role-playing game. For example, it would touch on how internalized character traits -- which work fine in novels -- are hard to convey well in RPGs, and so on.

 

This would include, by necessity, a lot of discussion of Disadvantages, simply because they're the "crunchy bits" of the game engine where the character's character (so to speak) is the most perceptable. In fact, in terms of specific application to RPG mechanics, the Disadvantages section would certainly be the longest. It wouldn't be a laundry-list thing like the USPD, with gobs of pre-made Disads and values on page after page. But it would be a detailed look at how character traits convert themselves on paper into Disadvantages, and would of course have to include a lot of examples and discussion of setting values appropriately.

 

In other words, it would be about how to create an interesting, well-developed, cool character profile (as opposed to a character in the RPG-playing-piece sense of the term), in a way that's particularly suited to RPGs, and then how to translate that character study into the RPG's language. And since it isn't specifically aimed at PCs or bad guys, both players and GMs could benefit equally.

 

I think that'd be a great book... I'd buy that in heartbeat!

 

See? This is precisely what I'm talking about being written. A book which covers what goes into making great characters, be they PCs, NPCs, villains, overlords, evil overlords, etc. What makes a cliche, how to avoid them, how to invert them.

 

But I'm waxing again.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

- Allowing levels of commonality between the current levels' date=' for 3 or 8 points (I'm one of those guys who doesn't think that Disdvantages [i']always[/i] need to come out in multiples of 5).

Amen! This is something I've been doing for years, allowing Disads to be 9-, 10-, 12-, or 13-, for intermediate amounts of points. I doubt I would ever allow a 5- or a 17- though.

 

But I don't need a whole book to tell me how to do this.

 

The Ultimate line is really more focused on character types rather than character components. A book of vague guidelines about how to deal with disads, which will inevitably be different for every genre and every setting, won't be that useful. What advice could it give? "Make sure you roll the PC's Hunteds for every adventure." or "You don't have to roll the PC's Hunteds for every adventure." or "In some genres/settings you should always and in some you don't have to." In none of those three cases, would the book really be useful. The fact is, good GMing is *hard*. It always has been, and it always will be. No book is going to free a GM from the responsibility of having to make decisions for his own games.

 

--- New Point ---

 

However, it might be interesting and useful to have an Ultimate Book for a character type that really does center on Disads, or at least the *lack* of powers, skills, etc. You could call it "The Ultimate Loser" or "The Ultimate Sad Sack" or "The Ultimate Hard Luck Case" or "The Ultimate Comic Relief Character" *** No! As I'm writing this, I figured out what it should be called:

 

The Ultimate Underdog

 

A book which focuses on the character type that tends not to have a lot of skills/powers/etc. Frodo would be an obvious example. He really doesn't have much going for him other than his determination and his allies, and he leaves most of his allies behind and hooks up with a very untrustworthy character instead. All around him are big scary monsters, mighty orcs, highly skilled elven archers, powerful wizards, revered kings, and immortal beings with ancient knowledge. What does Frodo have? A mithril shirt, a gardener, and a ring that's gradually corrupting his soul. There are lots of characters like this from all genres of fiction: the humble guy who must overcome incredible odds to succeed, or even just to survive. It might be useful to have a book that focuses on how to build and run characters like these. How do you write up a Frodo-type and actually use him in a world with, dragons, armies of orcs, etc., without getting him killed and having some chance of success? How do you deal with real physical dangers and a character with no combat capability? Such a book would obviously have to spend a good deal of space on Disadvantages.

[kave99]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Originally Posted by Derek Hiemforth

I think it would be great to see a book about the sort of stuff novelists, playwrights, and screenwriters think about when creating characters for their stories (motivation, psychology, inter-relation with the world and with other characters, etc.), but written with a slant specifically aimed at applying those concepts within the framework of creating those well-developed characters for a role-playing game. For example, it would touch on how internalized character traits -- which work fine in novels -- are hard to convey well in RPGs, and so on.

 

In other words, it would be about how to create an interesting, well-developed, cool character profile (as opposed to a character in the RPG-playing-piece sense of the term), in a way that's particularly suited to RPGs, and then how to translate that character study into the RPG's language. And since it isn't specifically aimed at PCs or bad guys, both players and GMs could benefit equally.

rant>>

as i read this i think to my self how role- playing has effected my life . i work in the film industry as a set decorator and each time i read a script i think as the character . i imagine what things he would have in his room (this is vary hard to verbalize) would he have modern or post modern furniture ect. the details of there life ,remember that the script might only say a fancy new York loft. the average champion character has larger amount of information about him the average script has next to nothing but his dialog and actions a hole team of creative people pull the detail out of the script to get the character. i got vary lucky on my trade test as the big question revolved around a post Holocaust treasure trove . ultimately the immersion in to character is the most fun aspect of the game and my job! otherwise we would all be arguing about micro armor or d&d . yes the crunchy game mechanics are good but i had a lot of fun playing the first ed of boot hill with next to no rules.

 

so i have rambled a bit!!

 

and now the point

 

in the end anything that elevates the game above simple dice rolling and game mechanics is good!!!!

so if this book just gives you code vs killing 20pt it's of Little use.

if on the other hand if it details 5 levels of cvk ,and lots of detail into what thy represent then it is good idea

[Black Rose]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

For some reason I'm reminded of Phobias. An UD could (among a host of other things) explain how commonality of phobia trigger and degree of reaction should combine. Maybe give some solid ideas of how uncommon Uncommon really is, and just how strong a reaction is Strong?

 

And a nice discussion on when a Disad should be a Psych Lim or a Phys Lim, or maybe a Dist Feat or Soc Lim.

 

And an explanation on why all those things which should really be limiting Dependencies (and seem to cost 0 pts) are really Psych Lims and/or Phys Lims.

[Wombatman]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

 

The Ultimate Underdog

 

 

THERE'S NO NEED TO FEAR...

 

oh wait...

 

sorry.

[Rapier]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

If you're implying that I at some point said there wouldn't be enough material to fill such a book' date=' you're incorrect. I've never said any such thing as far as I can recall, and if someone else said it I don't agree. Filling such a book wouldn't be a problem. There are many problems with such a book, but lack of material ain't one. [/quote']

 

YEAH! That's what I said. Does that mean I have become Proto-Steve. Now there's a weird thought. Of course, I've been drinking tonight...so they are ALL kind of weird thoughts.

[Rapier]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Wow, actively boycott? I can understand not being interested, I don't play Champions so I only buy a few books from that line so I could understand passing on a book you don't want but why would you feel so strongly against the idea that you would do something more than not buy it? I could understand if it was a product that offended you like the Ultimate Racist, or the Ultimate book of Vile acts, but a book of disads?

 

I don't see where having more material to work on disads diminishes the ability to add to the character, your comments are exactly the opposite of why I'd like to see the book, peoples "flaws" can be a huge part of their character but I don't see disads being used that way very often, I see lots of the same old thing, overconfidence, hunteds / watcheds, the occasional distinctive feature or rep, dependant NPC (usually used to advantage and should be a contact or a follower, at best as a GM plot hook).

 

It's hard to describe why I feel so strongly. I just don't see the point. Even though a lot of people have problems with Disads, I think it could be resolved with a couple pages and a few examples. Not only would I not buy such a book I would try and get others not to.

 

While I may not have much desire or need for some of the products, I at least can understand why they are there and agree that they have some use. I can't help but equate the Ultimate Disad with the Ultimate SFX or the Ultimate Science. I would hate to see development time go to this instead of one of the other products in the pipe. Once you spend a page discussing each Disad (which I think should be more than sufficient: one or two paragraphs explaining the disad and a paragraph for each variable) that only thing left is to fill the book with page after page of examples. Bleh.

 

Like I said, its hard to explain but I very seriously dislike the thought of the Ultimate Disad. Shrug.

 

Agree to disagree?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Amen! This is something I've been doing for years, allowing Disads to be 9-, 10-, 12-, or 13-, for intermediate amounts of points. I doubt I would ever allow a 5- or a 17- though.

 

But I don't need a whole book to tell me how to do this.

We really don't need a whole book to tell us how to do pretty much any of this. But the information is always handy to have around.

[Lucius]

The Ultimate Toaster

 

Okay' date=' [i']The Ultimate Toaster[/i], now we're talking! I loves me some warm and crispy baked goods.

 

Thanks, now I have to go make some toast.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary prefers scrabble eggs

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

I love toast.

 

What are we talking about again? OH, right. Here I'm on the same page as PhilFlesichman, but in the sense that his concept (Ultimate Underdog) blends beautifully with what Derek Heimforth and I are already in agreement upon - a deeper look at character construction, how to make what some would consider "odd" characters more playable, more interesting, etc.

 

In Les Miserables, your two main characters come from very similar backgrounds. One is the Hero, Jean Valjean. The other acts as the foil (I don't want to say villain, it's not appropriate to the character) and that's Javier. The difference is that Valjean has super strength. There's no other way to describe it, it comes across in the story multiple times, Javier is even aware that restraining the man is difficult (he lifts a cart that a group of men consider "unliftable.") In character terms, this is the character's Heroic Trait; the thing that sets him aside from all other people in the world around him.

 

Building that character could be extremely rewarding; his Strength has certain limitations - it can only be used in Dire Circumstances (-2). He knocks out Javier, but considering the man is as strong as a pack of oxen that he doesn't kill him is impressive. This sort of thing wouldn't occur to many players I know, because they're often trying to fit into a separate concept entirely, or don't think in those terms. A book covering different character types for different genres, and what is and is not acceptable, would be awesome.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

In Les Miserables' date=' your two main characters come from very similar backgrounds. One is the Hero, Jean Valjean. The other acts as the foil (I don't want to say villain, it's not appropriate to the character) and that's Javier.[/quote']Just as a side note, there's a very good reason for this. Both characters were inspired, at least in part, by the same real-life individual, Eugène François Vidocq.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Being Ben Seeman used to get you 50 pts. as a disad.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

What's it get now?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Most likely ulcers and migraines.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

The Ultimate Disad?

Physical Limitation: cannot earn/spend experience points(all the time, greatly impairing)

(this is particularly nasty if taken with Mo Pow Hunteds)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

We really don't need a whole book to tell us how to do pretty much any of this. But the information is always handy to have around.

Yes, but it should be one paragraph or one table in a book, at most.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Yes' date=' but it should be one paragraph or one table in a book, at most.[/quote']

 

But we need the Ultimate Skill?

 

Now I think this will also be an interesting book but I don't see how people can argue that a book detailing disads is not needed but one on skills is?

 

I do agree that it should include more than disads but quite a number can't seem to get past the "name" and constructively discuss the concept, I couldn't care less about the name, it is the idea of expanding the disads in the game.

 

So far I have found most of the negative comments (well at least the serious ones) to reinforce my idea that disads are not really used as anything more than extra points in most games.

 

Rapier, you are entitled to your opinion but that has to be one of the weirdest things I've heard someone say on these boards, but at least you don't seem to understand it either.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

So far what I've seen leads me to the following basic ideas, which I think combined could make a great book:

 

- How to build better characters. An in depth look at how writers create characters, from Frodo, to Superman, on through mythological figures and what they represent. A brief gloss of Jung and Campbell as how these things tie into myth itself, and how understanding myth can make a better story. This should cover everything from character psychology to how to break out of ruts.

 

- In the vein of building better characters, using disads appropriately to reflect who the character is, rather than just using them as a point sink to make the character more powerful. This section should be fairly extensive. It should also cover disads as being advantageous in some circumstances - an alcoholic is going to have an easier time mixing in with people at a bar because it's a rather familiar environment for him, the challenge is staying on task.

 

- Note to part 2: Using Disads to tell your character's story better via the GM, without breaking the game, or going outside of what the game is built to do. Using them as cooperative, instead of intrusive story telling.

 

- How to build Underdog/Uncommon characters, who have specific traits or talents that set them apart. Jean Valjean (thanks again, Bob!) has Super Strength. Frodo has a nearly indestructible will. Batman was a great investigator who happened to have trained his body into a weapon. All of these characters are known for these things, but are further defined by what they accomplished despite their shortcomings. Frodo was meek; Bruce Wayne lived two lives and is mentally unstable at times; Jean Valjean was a wanted criminal.

 

I want a book that elevates characters beyond inspiration and helps players but together people and tell the stories of those people in the circumstances and environments provided by the story/GM.

 

Then, a final section for GMs - here's how to work in disparate characters into one story while giving PCs more freedom. Here are genre specific examples of how to challenge characters into using their abilities in creative ways without "shutting them off."

 

So yeah. That.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here

 

Another thing that could be included is Quirks -- those little 1-point bits that aren't enough to be full Disadvantages, but help round out a character. Steve's said in the past that he doesn't like Quirks, and I can kind of see his point, but a half-page (or smaller) discussion on the concept would be fitting for TUD.

 

Then there's also quite a bit that could be said about things like Distinctive Features and Reputation. I once built a character with the idea that I'd give him as many differrent DFs as I could come up with. He wound up with a lizard-like appearance, a raspy voice, detectability as a mutant, a "psychic beacon" effect (noticeable by anyone with Mental Awareness), and the Style Disadvantage for his martial arts. Each was different in that it is detected by a different Sense, or at least has a different effect on how he was treated.

 

Also, for Psychological Limitations, much of the "criminal psychology" stuff from DC could be ported over and expanded.