Jkeown Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 ...no... not the ones my girlfriend has about Karl Urban, the one where it's the modern day and magic is available. I've been thinking about multiple projects, this being one of them. I'd like to do an Urban Fantasy, set someplace other than Earth of the 21st Century. It's actually pretty easy to design a world for typical medieval fantasy games, but I think a whole complex, modern planet might be a little tougher. Just one of the problems might be placing wilderness areas. There aren't so many of those left in the Real World. How might you go about justifying both High-tech and typical fantasy "wild zones," to give it a UF feel... And you need big monsters. I'm sure if dragons had ever existed, the Discovery Channel had it right, we hunted them down and finished them off long ago. And maybe other races as well, even though other species don't fare well in the real world, we tend endanger them (Dolphins), breed them out of existance (H. Erectus, H. Neanderthalensis) or don't recognize them as people (octopus and chimpanzee). I've hit upon a few, none of them terribly satisfying... Decline of civilization (PCs are among the last technologically advanced culture on the planet and that culture is fading fast). Social evolution within a confined area (but without exploration and exploitation, how do you advance?), Lost Colony (why, then, can't we build ships and get back to our homeworld?)... and post apocalyptic (Best one yet, really). Another issue is the magic-technology problem. Why did technology develop with magic there to do it for you? Or... why is magic still used when tech is easier to employ (from the standpoint of the untrained -- it's easier to use a toaster than to learn a toast-summoning spell). I suppose this last bit is still around (at least by inference) in typical fantasy, swords are cheaper to hammer out than a trained mage. If we have a chick who can fling fireballs, why do siege engines, hand cannon and mortars ever get invented? It's usually not said, but it's there... most fantasy worlds accept a certain level of technology and then remain there for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. My FH game, Caleon, evolves, but every technological development was watched over, debated and finally killed until very recently in history, and then only for reasons known only to the GM. Without the controlling influence of an ancient race of wizards, technology is racing ahead. Before their departure, it was swords and sandals for 25,000 years. How does Urban Fantasy even happen, in your opinion... Or do I just seek too much rationalization for things I ought to just write and enjoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesama Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... As far as other races go, once it starts talking and communication it's alot harder to write it off an non intellegent. Yeah a bunch of non intellegent species might be hunted out or killed. What happens when you deal with annother species that not only is intellegent but has magic? As far as technology vrs magic it's not always going to be a tecnology vrs magic deal. You can even have techno sorcery technogical priciples are combined with magic (on that note read Orion by Masamune Shirow for a good techno sorcerous empire). /edit PS: it's bad for your health to ask the 2000 year old dragon to move out, they tend to BBQ and eat the messengers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Love that Orion... Shirow is a genius.... His was a fully Techno-magical setting, it's true... I find myself wanting to revive the Arcologie, a setting where the inhabitants of a truly vast city don't even remember how they came to live that way. I'd still like other opinions, of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Another approach is Walter Jon William's Metropolitan and (not as good) sequel City on Fire. There you have a modern metropolis with magic generated by Geomancy / Feng Shui. Political and economic power rests on control of magical energy. No goblins or monsters (well, apart from magically-created ones) but plenty of magic and fighting. And wilderness? Any slum area.... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... This is possibly my second strongest genre, but I also don't want to emblazon my theories on why into your cerebellum unfairly. So let me try and cover your basic questions here. Just one of the problems might be placing wilderness areas. There aren't so many of those left in the Real World. How might you go about justifying both High-tech and typical fantasy "wild zones' date='" to give it a UF feel... And you need big monsters. I'm sure if dragons had ever existed, the Discovery Channel had it right, we hunted them down and finished them off long ago. [/quote'] In one of the horrendously bad films I saw over the summer a few years ago, dragons weren't extinct, they were just shut down. According to Shadowrun something similar was true, and later they came about in full force and started taking over the world as magic returned based on its sine wave activity (in the year 2010). The first question I'm pulling out of this is "Where does magic come from?" Answer: "Wherever you need it to for story purposes." If you want to justify its existance, you may want to refer to Mage: The Ascension which is the hall mark of magic in an Urban setting; that game assumed that magic was real, but so was technology, and according to the current world belief, Technology was "more real" than magic, which was considered myth. Thusly the universe would punish anyone who was using magic while surrounded by the oppressive personalities of "mundanes." Called "Muggles" by J.K. Rowling. Harry Potter doesn't count; that's a fantasy that's set in modern times, but the school counts as being effectively medieval. Where was I? Your second question, "Why have a gun if people use magic?" is a very simple one to answer. "Why be a soldier when you can be a rocket scientist?" Because many people aren't soldiers, or rocket scientists. Not everyone is going to have the aptitude, or the interest, in using magic. If you use your own model for a moment, and tech advances, than tech becomes magic for the common man. This is the same theme my campaign is built on, and a similar theme seen in The Lord of the Rings. Magic is great. But gunpowder is cheap, easy, and anyone can use it with minimal trianing. Here's another great example: in Raiders of the Lost Ark, the classic "Harrison is sick today and rewrote his scene" moment as he stands in a face off against a swordsman, who twirls his blade, screams at the top of his lungs, gets ready to attack - and Indy shoots him. On another thread, Old Man said pretty the exact same thing - "The mage begins his incant, and raises his arm..." Old Man: "Is he at half DCV yet?" GM: *through gritted teeth* "Yes." Old Man: "I shoot him in the tonsils." There are always reasons why you wouldn't choose magic over a gun. Anyone can use a gun. We also have to ask questions about the magic system - how reliable is magic? Is it high magic? Call of Cthulu ritual magic? Are people prone to horrible disfigurements? Aging? Attracting strange beings from other worlds? Are some kinds of magic outlawed? Here's another fun note people often miss: In the film X-Men, the opening scene is genius; it shows a government having a knee-jerk reaction to mutants and their super powers. ANY INTELLIGENT GOVERNMENT is going to make rules, laws & restrictions governing the use of magic. Improper use of magic is a crime. Using Charm to have a bank robbed absolves the thief, as he had no control. Unless that was part of the scam. So do we use magic in court to determine what happened? I could go on for many, many pages on this topic, but I think I've gotten it across. This isn't simply about just another "Urban Fantasy." You've got a world. Think how your world would react to magic in an active, modern society and beauracracy. Does some/any/all/none (please circle one) of that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... I've hit upon a few' date=' none of them terribly satisfying... Decline of civilization (PCs are among the last technologically advanced culture on the planet and that culture is fading fast). Social evolution within a confined area (but without exploration and exploitation, how do you advance?), Lost Colony (why, then, can't we build ships and get back to our homeworld?)... and post apocalyptic (Best one yet, really).[/quote'] To these I would add the 'dystopian future', where society has evolved itself into a kind of stunted state or dead end. SLA Industries was one of these; a corporate megalopoly run amok, controlling/enslaving its citizens with bureaucracy, TV, and the judicious application of violence. Orwellian states would be another. Another issue is the magic-technology problem. Why did technology develop with magic there to do it for you? Or... why is magic still used when tech is easier to employ (from the standpoint of the untrained -- it's easier to use a toaster than to learn a toast-summoning spell). Probably the simplest method I can think of is repression of magic. If magicians are ruthlessly hunted down and killed, and driven underground, then obviously tech would be necessary for the masses. The second option would be to make magic either unreliable or otherwise severely limited. If all magic is so ritualized that it takes a candle-studded pentacle and thirty minutes of chanting, then it's useless in personal combat. Perhaps magic causes potentially grievous side effects to the caster, or maybe it's just not capable of affecting inanimate objects, or whatever. As for Orion-style technomagery... that actually seems the simplest to model using Hero; it basically seems like high-powered VPP magic with lots of foci. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Another issue is the magic-technology problem. Why did technology develop with magic there to do it for you? Or... why is magic still used when tech is easier to employ (from the standpoint of the untrained -- it's easier to use a toaster than to learn a toast-summoning spell). I suppose this last bit is still around (at least by inference) in typical fantasy, swords are cheaper to hammer out than a trained mage. If we have a chick who can fling fireballs, why do siege engines, hand cannon and mortars ever get invented? It's usually not said, but it's there... most fantasy worlds accept a certain level of technology and then remain there for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. A not-terribly original thought comes to mind here. One develops technological (and sorcerous) solutions to problems because you either can't do in any other way, or the other way is not in your best interest (too expensive, too difficult, too tacky, etc.). If it's easy for you to create clean fresh-water pools anywhere, you don't need to develop and build aquaducts, but if you don't have any other choice.... If you don't have a chick around to hurl fireballs, you start looking for three things: anti-fireball defences anti-fireball-hurling-chick devices something to replicate either fireballs or the damage they can do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... I don't know how this applies but it was a sudden thought while reading but Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy and Ostrander and Truman's Grimjack was magic and technology living side by side. Magic is ritual and time consuming in most cases compared to a bullet or a blade. Some areas it didn't work at all. There is also Cartoon Network's Juniper Lee where the monsters are mostly hidden while living in the city, but someone has to deal with unexpected messes. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... I had a long reply to everyone, but my DSL provider doesn't love you guys the way I do, so... I'm using a fantasy world with a limited technological population , a large, self-sustaining city called the Arcologie (note the somewhat odd spelling), ruled by wizards (Chaos Blades from FH) with the main thrust of the plot being to learn about the city's origins. It'll be like Games Workshop's Necromunda with actual fantasy elements instead of all the psychic stuff. Rep to all of ya's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... I had a long reply to everyone, but my DSL provider doesn't love you guys the way I do, so... I'm using a fantasy world with a limited technological population , a large, self-sustaining city called the Arcologie (note the somewhat odd spelling), ruled by wizards (Chaos Blades from FH) with the main thrust of the plot being to learn about the city's origins. It'll be like Games Workshop's Necromunda with actual fantasy elements instead of all the psychic stuff. Rep to all of ya's! It seems to me you have already decided on either a lost colony smiliar to the Warlock in spite of himself or the furies of caleron, or a post apoclyptic setting. In any case, wild magic creatures would fit in if the city is not world wide. The classic example are rodents, especailly rats. They can survive anywhere on anything, even chew through concrete and electrical wiring. Plus outside the city you can have scores of things that can be used. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooligan x Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Read Aaron Allison's Doc Sidhe and Sidhe Devil. Then read 'em again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... That's the funny thing. I don't read fantasy and sci-fi. Nor comics or other printed material outside of scientific journals. (Waits for gasps of shock and awe to cease) If I think of something, it's an original thought. Perhaps not fully-formed, perhaps it was some published authors thought first, but if I read somehting in a novel and then bring it to the game, it's just not my idea, no matter how much spin I put on it. Am I a bit of a jerk for being this way? Probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Well, you mentioned wanting a world with magic, fantasy creatures, and wilderness. You also mentioned the potential for a post-apocalyptic world. That could be your answer right there: the apocalypse is the breakdown of reality as we know it. Magic returns to the world, large swaths of the Earth's surface are replaced with fantastic wilderness full of strange creatures. Mankind continues to live in the remaining cities, with their established industrial base, but now they need people to defend them against the strange beings wandering in from the new wilderness, and the ones stepping out of the shadows in the cities. Furthermore, a few brave souls try to understand and tame the new forces at work in the world. Will you try to deny the new world, and live in the past? Will you try to undo the change? Or will you accept that the world has moved on, and adapt to the new ways? Zeropoint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Okay, it's been many many years since I read this story, so not only do I not recall the author, I also do not recall the title. Fortunately, I DO recall the plot. A biologist studies alligators and discovers that they have a genetic abnormality in their hearts. He performs a simple surgical procedure on several gators, correcting the abnormality. All of a sudden, they experience a period of renewed development, and reach their full growth as dragons. ~sigh~ Yeah, I know it's lame. It was in the 60s, after all. Don't blame me... I didn't write it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... That's the funny thing. I don't read fantasy and sci-fi. Nor comics or other printed material outside of scientific journals. (Waits for gasps of shock and awe to cease) If I think of something, it's an original thought. Perhaps not fully-formed, perhaps it was some published authors thought first, but if I read somehting in a novel and then bring it to the game, it's just not my idea, no matter how much spin I put on it. Am I a bit of a jerk for being this way? Probably. Oh, so you're a hard geek. You know, like hard deaf who refuse to speak at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Are your players exploring this city for your wizards, or are the wizards already in possession and the characters are just trying to get in? The answers to those two questions could lead to other lines to set down as background. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Okay, it's been many many years since I read this story, so not only do I not recall the author, I also do not recall the title. Fortunately, I DO recall the plot. A biologist studies alligators and discovers that they have a genetic abnormality in their hearts. He performs a simple surgical procedure on several gators, correcting the abnormality. All of a sudden, they experience a period of renewed development, and reach their full growth as dragons. ~sigh~ Yeah, I know it's lame. It was in the 60s, after all. Don't blame me... I didn't write it. I remember this one! IIRC, people ended up hiding in subways and caves, because with the increased "heartpower" the alligators had, they were able to move faster, longer, and then they started to grow. A lot. And they budded wings out, and.... Anyway, it was a cool story. I liked it. Could work for a low-power Heroic game, say 25+25 or 25+50*. Maybe even 50+50 if you want to take the fight to the Dragons. That could be fun. * I suggest such low levels so as to keep the fear alive. Basically these dragons are nothing more than big fast flying lizards. They aren't smart, they don't breathe fire, they don't cast spells. They just combine all the worst traits of pigeons (flying and crapping on things), rats (getting into every place you don't want them and breeding fast), and alligators (being a big nasty lizard). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Oh' date=' so you're a hard geek. You know, like hard deaf who refuse to speak at all.[/quote'] That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said in this context. I have a friend who starts sentences with "Ya know, there's this book you should..." before he gets to "know" I've already tuned him out. Dawn, my Significant Other is a Serious Reader. She's a genius... reads a Stephen King novel in 1 day. She can spend $50 on paperbacks at Borders and have nothing to read in 4 days. She knows every author, every plot, every character of every fantasy novel ever written. Me, I know the characters I've created. Sure, sometimes my players will say "Oh, she's just like [insert fictional character here]!" and I'll just nod. Less kind words have been used, I assure you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Are your players exploring this city for your wizards, or are the wizards already in possession and the characters are just trying to get in? The answers to those two questions could lead to other lines to set down as background. CES I had hoped to write with such scope as to allow all possibilities. PCs should be special people, MAYBE even Chaos Blades themselves... that would immediately thrust them into the setting's politics. Either way, they would only see "life from the inside" at character creation. After they leave the city, PCs could be created using standard fantasy character types with a different perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Don't sweat not reading. As I've posted on many other forums, I myself am no longer a reader; I just write at this point. Between having played multiple game systems and collecting various core ideas (and having a classical education) I don't care much for reading anymore. Just writing. So I'm with you on the "original concept" argument, although you'll discover fairly quickly that people will often "read into" various constructions things that aren't there. Then, later, you can put them there to mess with them. I love it when my players create their own doom that way. Let us know how the dev. cycle goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... I had hoped to write with such scope as to allow all possibilities. PCs should be special people' date=' MAYBE even Chaos Blades themselves... that would immediately thrust them into the setting's politics. Either way, they would only see "life from the inside" at character creation. After they leave the city, PCs could be created using standard fantasy character types with a different perspective.[/quote'] If they are built as city dwellers, that gives you a host of things to do depending on how your city is built. If the city is medievel in purpose, guilds and such should be around, specialized craftsmen, animals on the loose. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... Here ya go... Join. Edit. Let's have fun with this! http://arkowiki.wikispaces.com/Home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wychcraft Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Re: Urban Fantasy... ... Magic returns to the world' date=' large swaths of the Earth's surface are replaced with fantastic wilderness full of strange creatures. Mankind continues to live in the remaining cities, with their established industrial base, but now they need people to defend them against the strange beings wandering in from the new wilderness, and the ones stepping out of the shadows in the cities. Furthermore, a few brave souls try to understand and tame the new forces at work in the world. ... Zeropoint[/quote'] I actually ran a game like this for a couple of years, except magic wasn't "just returning" (ala Shadowrun) - it was invading. Random minor "tears in reality" - called shadowtides - had naturally occurred all throughout history. These tears allowed magical energy, creatures, people, and even locations (which replaced whatever had been there before) to slip through to our world from other planes of existence. Whatever came through would remain fully "functional" {i.e. a dragon could still fly and breathe fire, a staff of arcane tempests would still be able to call up storms, etc.} until it died/was destroyed, at which time it disappeared as if it had never been (look Ma, no dragon bones!). The shadowtides was how I explained everything from Merlin and Excalibur, to unicorns and griffins, and even places like Atlantis. In recent times, something inexplicably caused the minor self-healing tears to become major rips! My campaign started a few years after the rips originated. It centered around a US government agency - called Chimera - trying to deal with the influx of magic, new races, arcane creatures, and whole locations (the PCs first adventure was arguing land rights with an ancient dragon whose domain had replaced a large portion of South Dakota). The whole approach saved me the headache of deciding why people would chose a gun over a magical sword ... characters worked with what they were raised with. It was left to the players to work out a happy medium between all parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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