Package Deals in 5ER

[Ogmios]

[i origionally posted this question on the Rules Question forum, and was instructed to reopen it here]

 

After quite a long time of playing Hero 4th, I finally moved on to 5th Revised, and I'm somewhat confused with the treatment that Package Deals were given.

 

Back in 4th, Package Deals were a way to incorage players to build well-themed characters. This was achieved by granting a small point bonus, with a value relative to the cost of the package, and allowing the GM to decide not to count the disadvantages in the package towards the maximum points from disadvantages.

Both these concepts were removed by 5ER, which brings about the question - why would a player want to use a package deal? Why not simply take the skills, talents, perks, powers and disadvantages appropriate for the character?

 

(The obvious exception would be racial package deals, which may be the only way to purchase certain powers in certain campaigns, like Elves' nightvision or Ogres' size)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

There is no point-based or game mechanic incentive.... solely campaign and character-driven ones. I suppose maybe they should have taken out the word "Deal" and just called it "Package."

[MitchellS]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Package deals are nothing more then suggested guidelines for groupings of skills, powers, talents, perks, and disadvantages that various characters might wish to take depending upon race, profession, or character type. So rather then each player needing to decide what constitutes a "Police Officer" package for a PC the GM gives you a package of the most common groupings to save you time.

 

There are no points granted for such a package because the packages are just a way of assisting a character in getting all of the things he would have taken for his character anyway. So in other words, if you wanted your PC to be a reporter you would have chosen selective skills, perks, and disadvantages to represent that. The fact that they are all grouped together for you to use just makes it easier to not miss something you might not have thought of.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

What Mitchell said. Package Deal is bad terminology and should probably have been changed.

 

It's a way for the GM and Players to come up with a consistant representation of any given archetype, race, etc... that the PCs might encounter or be themselves.

 

If the Games Package Deal for police officers includes KS: Law Procedures at 11- then everyone knows all cops should have that skill.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

If you really have your heart set on giving point breaks for package deals, do it. You're the GM. Give a percentage discount like 10% off or something. Personally, that doesn't make any sense to me. A self-taught detective with the same skills spends more points than one working for the precinct?

[Herolover]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I too agree that it should be called "Packages" and not "Package Deals."

 

You ask, "Why bother?" Well I will tell you.

 

Imagine your player comes to you with the character he wants to play Lt. Col Sampson a US Army Ranger. You start playing your game and into the campaign you need the Lt. Col pull some rank on some NPC's in order to get the party into the secret military facility. However, you discover, that the player didn't want to spend any points on Military rank. What do you do?

 

a) just give him free points thereby shorting the other players.

let a Lt. Col in the military walk around that can order other lower rank people in the military?

 

Basically what Packages do is ensure that all charactes of a certain profession-ability get there just due and player's or GM's skip something that their charactes should have.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I refer to Package Deals as Cookie Cutters. They are in the book for ease purposes only. It cuts a nice little outline for your character and lets you do the decorating yourself.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

they're not a deal anymore.

 

their name should have been changed to either "package" or "template".

 

 

just my two crowns

[Lucius]

Package Deals in 5ER

 

If you really have your heart set on giving point breaks for package deals' date=' do it. You're the GM. Give a percentage discount like 10% off or something. Personally, that doesn't make any sense to me. A self-taught detective with the same skills spends more points than one working for the precinct?[/quote']

 

I take it Elemental Controls don't make any sense to you either?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is browsing the periodic table for elements to control....

[Black Rose]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

You might want to consider using an Expert Skill Enhancer. I don't recall where I saw this, but I'm 99.44% positive it's now a legit construct. Regardless, the idea would be that you-the-GM would decide what skills fall under the heading you're working with; police officer, executive, teacher, athlete, whatever. Then you throw a Skill Enhancer on that list that reduces all full skills (3+ pts for Char-based, 2+ otherwise) by one point. I'd make it cost at least 5 pts for up to 10 skills, 8 pts for up to 15, and 10 pts for up to 20 (frankly you shouldn't have normal builds running around with 20+ skills IMO.

[Rapier]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I've found that Package Deals work REALLY well for those players transitioning from a D20 or other level/class based system. To be a Police Officer, you buy the Police Officer Package and you are all set.

 

This made things quite a bit easier in my fantasy game. Mages had certain package deals as they rise in the guild.

 

All in all, its just a short cut.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I take it Elemental Controls don't make any sense to you either?

 

Nor skill enhancers (see Black Rose's post - I like that "expert" idea). After all, the only characters that ever buy the skill enhancers are the ones that have enough skills in the appropriate category to at least break even, if not save points, as a result. You never see a Scientist (3 pt skill enhancer) who only has one Science Skill, do you?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I take it Elemental Controls don't make any sense to you either?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is browsing the periodic table for elements to control....

 

They make perfect sense.

 

Now, let's say you take a police package which includes "WF: Pistols" and some ranged CSL's. When someone takes your pistol away from you, all your CSL's for pistols are worthless but you still have your skills at full power. Losing your gun doesn't take away your ability to deduce a conclusion from a crime scene. If you made your police package deal with an EC, then "draining" any one characterisitc, like your pistol, would drain them all yes?

 

That's probably not a great example since it doesn't make any sense.

 

I think the point is "package deals" and "elemental controls" and "multipowers" are completely different things. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I understand the basis behind getting a point break with ECs and MPs, but not behind a package deal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I understand the basis behind getting a point break with ECs and MPs' date=' but not behind a package deal.[/quote']

In 4E (and ealier I believe) a Package Deal got you a small break for a good solid concept such as a Racial Deal or a Cop Deal.

[Ogmios]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

First of all, thanks for the warm welcome and the useful info. As I said in my origional post, I'm currently trying to port my 4E campain to 5ER, and the packages are giving me some grief.

 

As for the question about package deals in 4E, for those who asked, the idea was indeed to encourage building sound character concepts, by awarding a small point bonus (hence the term package deal) for characters who took a set of skills which made sence together.

This concept worked well, IMHO, for cultural and proffesional package deals, where it practicly forced players to round out their characters with KSs, but was somewhat abused with racial package deals, where it served as no more than a cheap way to get some more points.

In any event, this bonus wasn't too high (up to 3 points for a 15 point package, which means another free skill, basically).

 

 

For those of you interested, you should take a look at KillerShrike's take on packages (which he was kind enough to PM me. Thanks man!). He makes some valid points there (excuse the pun )

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.shtml

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Welcome to HERO - we like to help people here.

 

KillerShrike has an unbeliebably awesome website, I can't recommend reading through it enough.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

You might want to consider using an Expert Skill Enhancer. I don't recall where I saw this

 

Dark Champions.

[Lucius]

Package Deals in 5ER

 

They make perfect sense.

 

Now, let's say you take a police package which includes "WF: Pistols" and some ranged CSL's. When someone takes your pistol away from you, all your CSL's for pistols are worthless but you still have your skills at full power. Losing your gun doesn't take away your ability to deduce a conclusion from a crime scene. If you made your police package deal with an EC, then "draining" any one characterisitc, like your pistol, would drain them all yes?

 

That's probably not a great example since it doesn't make any sense.

 

Well, you went from making to perfect sense to not making any sense. I'm still trying to make sense of it.

 

If you bought a bunch of powers through a focus, and the focus is taken away, you lose the powers, regardless of whether they were bought as elemental control or not.

 

 

I think the point is "package deals" and "elemental controls" and "multipowers" are completely different things. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I understand the basis behind getting a point break with ECs and MPs, but not behind a package deal.

 

An elemental control and a multipower are two completely different things. An elemental control and a package deal are not two completely different things. In fact, in concept, they are pretty much identical things. They differ more in how the concept was executed. It's not comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to crabapples.

 

If you "understand the basis behind getting a point break with ECs" than I think you understand the basis behind getting a point break on a package deal.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary smiles at both ends.

[Chris Henry]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

One thing that will make package deals more attractive is to make certain talents or powers only available with a package deal. If only members of the Black Wizards of Ergul can cast spells, or only monks of the Jedalun order can wield Force Swords, then the package deals involved become a... er... deal. Otherwise they make character creation a tad quicker, which can be a deal in and of itself.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Package Deals are Role Playing tools ... a Character shouldn't take one for a point cost break (never did like that) - but because they are role playing a concept or aspect of their character's background.

[Black Rose]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

If you "understand the basis behind getting a point break with ECs" than I think you understand the basis behind getting a point break on a package deal.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary smiles at both ends.

But if I took the Policeman Package Deal, and am suspended from the force for excessive brutality - "Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya?" - I don't lose my Deduction Skill, or my Forensic Medicine Skill, and I certainly don't lose my Criminology skill. I lose access to my service revolver (and most cops have more guns than that), my badge, and I'm not, technically, a cop, so I can't perform arrests other than citizen's and I'm not supposed to go places ordinary civilians can't go. Some things are lost, but not all.

 

Frankly, most of what makes a Package Deal is the skills; it really is just a list of what the GM expects to see on someone who claims to be a "whatever". I'd prefer to call them Templates, but GURPS locked that word down for the same thing, so it'd look cheap. If you've ever taken a good look at the G:Wizards or G:Warriors books, they give great breakdowns of what a "typical whatever" ought to have, plus some skills and other bits they might reasonably have, and put it all down so you can pick and choose. That way, if you want a sniper who, when cornered, fights in an acrobatic style, you grab the acrobatic martial artist template and the sniper template and smoosh them together. Works great.

 

For an example of someone who does great packages for HERO, look at Killer Shrike's site. Geez, I ought to put that in my sig.

[Lucius]

Package Deals in 5ER

 

From page 203 FREd:

 

"Elemental Controls provide a cost savings ... in exchange for 1) buying related powers which fit his conception well and 2) accepting certain restrictions on those powers."

 

The only restriction (other than on the KIND of powers that may be used) seems to be the one about Adjustment powers - if any power in the Elemental Control loses points, they ALL do, and at effectively double the normal rate. Unless I am much mistaken, this was not the case in the first edition of Champions, and is something that was added to the Elemental Control rules later. In other words, it is not basic to the idea of the Elemental Control. The "related powers which fit his conception well" is the heart of the idea; the Adjustment rule is just a logical outgrowth of that.

 

In other words, comparing the point break of an Elemental Control with that of a Package Deal Bonus isn't comparing "apples and oranges." It's comparing two things that are fundamentally identical.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying either is a Good Idea. I'm saying that you can't call one a Good Idea and the other a Bad Idea, because it's the Same Idea. To argue otherwise is to be logically inconsistent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that people often are logically inconsistent, but that's Lucius' Psych Lim again; he's compelled to point out logical iconsistency no matter how futile it is.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I see what you are saying Lucius and I can't say that you are wrong, just that I disagree. I see it as perfectly valid to give someone a discount for taking a package deal, but it's not something I would do.

 

The reason I say a package deal and an EC are different is what you can put in them. A simple police package deal is something like this:

WF: Pistols

Fringe Benefit: Police powers

Deduction

Criminology

Tracking

 

I can't think of a valid reason such things might fit into an EC. So, let's say you were horribly burned as a child but the fire stayed inside you and gave you fire powers. Sounds like a good basis for an EC. Now try to justify putting in Criminology into your fire-based EC.

 

PS: As for the example from my previous post, the part that doesn't make sense is you can't really drain/suppress his pistol. That's how you disable an EC is through drain/suppress etc. So, while the example didn't really make any sense, I really do understand this stuff, I just can't convey it properly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Lucius is not saying Package Deals and ECs are the same thing.

 

He is saying that in previous editions they were born of the same concept:

 

A close knit group of related things gave you a cost break.

 

In 5E Package "Deals" no longer give that cost break, but the fundamental idea behind them is the same: They are supposed to represent a close knit group of things that represent a concept.

 

Their implemenation is completely different as they are achieving different goals, but they have the same Conceptual Idea behind them. That is all Lucius is saying.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

That I can agree to. But, still no cost break on package deals in my campaigns.