Package Deals in 5ER

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

That I can agree to. But' date=' still no cost break on package deals in my campaigns. [/quote']

Well I'm glad you're using 5E rules because they're not SUPPOSED to give cost breaks.

 

Lucius isn't saying they're supposed to give cost breaks. He NEVER said they're supposed to give cost breaks.

[Lucius]

Package Deals in 5ER

 

I see what you are saying Lucius and I can't say that you are wrong, just that I disagree. I see it as perfectly valid to give someone a discount for taking a package deal, but it's not something I would do.

.

 

Heck, for what it's worth, I'm not sure I'd do it either. We'll have to see what I do if I ever start running a game again.

 

 

PS: As for the example from my previous post, the part that doesn't make sense is you can't really drain/suppress his pistol. That's how you disable an EC is through drain/suppress etc. So, while the example didn't really make any sense, I really do understand this stuff, I just can't convey it properly.

 

Of course you can drain/suppres his pistol, just as you could any other ranged Killing Attack with a focus, or without a focus for that matter. But his pistol isn't even part of the package deal, so I don't see what that has to do with it.

 

If you think about it, Skill Enhancers like Scholar, and the Expert Skill Enhancer or whatever they call it from Dark Champions, work mechanically a lot more like an Elemental Control. I haven't heard anyone object to them, either. That's probably the way to go if I ever want to design another Package Deal.

 

People keep bringing up the adjustment powers as if that were THE primary thing about an elemental control. No, the point is that if you can't think of a reasonable SFX for a drain that would effect all the powers, they aren't CLOSELY RELATED enough to justify being in an elemental control.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary peruses the periodic table for controllable elements....

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Lucius isn't saying they're supposed to give cost breaks. He NEVER said they're supposed to give cost breaks.

 

Ahhh yes, that's completely true. It was a lively conversation even if I had no idea what it was about.

[Lucius]

Package Deals in 5ER

 

Well I'm glad you're using 5E rules because they're not SUPPOSED to give cost breaks.

 

Lucius isn't saying they're supposed to give cost breaks. He NEVER said they're supposed to give cost breaks.

 

I must not have been clear. I know that under the Current Dispensation the DON'T give cost breaks, but I was trying to say that if it's right for an Elemental Control to give cost breaks, it's right for a Package Deal to do so. The Current Dispensation is logically inconsistent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I are still trying to figure out what dispelling a gun has to do with anything, though....

[Black Rose]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

People keep bringing up the adjustment powers as if that were THE primary thing about an elemental control. No' date=' the point is that if you can't think of a reasonable SFX for a drain that would effect all the powers, they aren't CLOSELY RELATED enough to justify being in an elemental control.[/quote']

Oh, I can think of a reasonable SFX for a Drain to affect all the powers in an EC. Thing is, I can't comprehend why your Draining my Force Field should have anything whatsoever to do with my TK! You drain my Psychokinesis SFX, sure, but tapping the individual powers and hitting everything else? Sorry, but I call shenanigans.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I must not have been clear. I know that under the Current Dispensation the DON'T give cost breaks, but I was trying to say that if it's right for an Elemental Control to give cost breaks, it's right for a Package Deal to do so. The Current Dispensation is logically inconsistent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I are still trying to figure out what dispelling a gun has to do with anything, though....

You said it yourself - the execution is different enough, I don't think PDs should give a cost break, they're simply guidelines and templates.

[tribe]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

In the games I play, a package can still be beneficial because it allows a character to include Disadvantages in the package which don't count towards the Disadvantage total of the character.

 

For example, a character has 350 points (200 base plus 150 Disadvantages).

 

Let's call her Pack Rat. She takes a science professor package which has a few skills, a fringe benefit or two and contacts, but it also has a Social Limitation that she needs to Publish or Perish (Universities put the pressure on their professors to keep up with the academic world).

 

The package might have 15 points of skills etc, but the Disadvantage brings it down to 5 points.

 

In a round about way the character of Pack Rat now has 360 points because she took a package which had a Disadvantage in it, but she is still classed as having 350 points just like all the other characters.

 

This way it rewards players who want to build certain types of characters who also have weaknesses/limitations which really is a calling card of the superhero genre.

 

Hope that made sense. It's pretty late over here and I may have missed an important clarifying step.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Technically the Disadvantages of a Package Deal count towards the Disad's a character can take.

 

But if it works well in your games that way, keep on keeping on.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Actually. *pause* Actually, I do give a cost break for package deals - that's where the deal part comes from. Specifically, I simply don't count inherent disads against the net value of the package. So Aelf costs... what, I think 5 points when I was done? Bam, five points, with inherent disads counted into it, so it only cost CP and not against the value of the package for the PC.

 

This has a chance of offsetting some folk as they struggle to squeeze every point out, but it also encourages them to pick up package deals. I also use a "you must use a package unless you have a reason not to" system. You wanna use magic? Package deal! Paladin? Package Deal!

 

Not all package deals will offer disads, though many do. I haven't had any problems doing it that way whatsoever, so either I'm using the rule wrong, or I DMO'd my way into a perfectly valid (if not rules legal) way of doing it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

What he said, but two posts later.

[tribe]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Technically the Disadvantages of a Package Deal count towards the Disad's a character can take.

 

But if it works well in your games that way, keep on keeping on.

 

See I had a feeling it might be illegal.

 

 

But it works, yeah. It's not abused that I can tell, so it's a keeper.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

If you think about it' date=' Skill Enhancers like Scholar, and the Expert Skill Enhancer or whatever they call it from Dark Champions, work mechanically a lot more like an Elemental Control. I haven't heard anyone object to them, either. That's probably the way to go if I ever want to design another Package Deal.[/quote']

 

**koff koff**

 

 

Nor skill enhancers (see Black Rose's post - I like that "expert" idea). After all, the only characters that ever buy the skill enhancers are the ones that have enough skills in the appropriate category to at least break even, if not save points, as a result. You never see a Scientist (3 pt skill enhancer) who only has one Science Skill, do you?

 

I have no explicit problem with these enhancers, but they do provide a point break without in any way weakening the abilities on which the savings are realized.

 

An EC imposes some restrictions, even if we don't agree their value is appropriate.

 

As to the comment "why should a Drain of my force field affect my TK", the answer is "because you put it them an EC". Mechanically, that's the way an EC works. Conceptually, it's all one pool of psychokinetic power, so if I can wedge my way in and steal points from your Force Field, they also come out of the Telekinesis, since I've weakened your overall level of psychokinetic power. If you don't see your Force Field and TK as being that closely linked, they don't belong in your EC.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Personally I like package deals the way they were - small cost saving for taking a package. It might be seen as a limit on the ultimate freedom of Hero, but it is not - as with everything, you get what you pay for - you are a little more predictable if you were trained by the LAPD than if you picked up the skills ad hoc and, yes, it does make sense to me that a tried and tested training programme will give skills more easily than a random development. Otherwise, frankly, why bother taking a package deal that is nothing more than someone else building a bit of your character? Might be useful of a GM with an initiative deficit but, as a player I can't imagine ever wanting to take a package deal.

 

Another think they were good at was getting an unusual skill into play: all Bamorian Cavalry are required to be able to play the flute, for instance. Now that is only a point or two, but you can get to resent it if you want to play in concept, but don't get any reward for doing so (well, bar self satisfaction, maybe).

 

Mind you that is not the way it is done now, and whilst I can, of course, create my own rules and hand out bonuses if I want, that is not how the system works, and, where I can, i play the system as it is, but I can lament the passing, and hope that, in the future, the DEAL will make a re-appearance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I see it both ways ... a PC taking a Cop Package is required to have certain skills that the GM expects a Cop to have, and the PC expects a Cop to have.

 

On the flipside, all PCs know what a Cop should know at a minimum level now.

 

They're just common ground to work from. I like that they don't give cost breaks anymore personally.

[Rapier]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Technically the Disadvantages of a Package Deal count towards the Disad's a character can take.

 

That was always my problem with the "Deal" part of he package. Most Disads are multiples of 5. Now here is a 3 pt Disad. Which meant that there were character built in 147 out of 150.

 

So what to do? This is actually a reason NOT to take a package deal...you could get +1 DEX and just buy the stuff straight out! What to do? You don't count package deal bonuses in the total...then you get a REAL deal.

 

I'm actually much happier that the Disad bonus was dropped. The benefit of taking a package deal is that you get all the skills in the package. There should not be many game concepts to enforce character concept.

[Lucius]

Re: Elemental Controls and Package Deals in 5ER

 

Oh' date=' I can think of a reasonable SFX for a Drain to affect all the powers in an EC. Thing is, I can't comprehend why your Draining my Force Field should have anything whatsoever to do with my TK! You drain my Psychokinesis SFX, sure, but tapping the individual powers and hitting everything else? Sorry, but I call shenanigans.[/quote']

 

I had to read this twice to figure out exactly what you're saying. I think I get it now.

 

I don't have a problem with a Drain hitting one power in an elemental control and thus hitting all of them. Conceptually, they're in an elemental control because in one sense they are "all one power" with different manifestations.

 

After all, if you had a series of linked powers that have to run proportionately, draining one would drain all in a sense - not the same number of points, but the same percentage of the total.

 

What I have a problem with is the fact that elemental controls automatically have a 2X vulnerability to adjustment powers. I can see the point of "drain one, drain all" but not of "drain one, drain all at double effectiveness."

 

I also have a problem with seizing on this logical consequence of the basic idea, and talking/acting like it IS the basic idea.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[atlascott]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I STILL use package deal to handle everyman campaign abilities characters and NPC's have, or as intersting options, lik e"elf" or "dwarf"--it is less and issue of price break as it is of flavor. THe advantage od class-based games is it is easy to be certain that characters will be playing genre-supported character types. Package deals serve that purpose but still alow flexibility in the HERO system.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Here's the deal: you buy all the stuff in the Mage Package, and I'll have NPCs call you a mage. We good?

[Rapier]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Here's the deal: you buy all the stuff in the Mage Package' date=' and I'll have NPCs call you a mage. We good? [/quote']

 

That is not too far off from how we distinguish them. Package deals help in identifying the character and in some cases act kind of like a professional degree or union membership.

 

If you haven't bought the package deal you're just an icky little spellcaster. If you buy the package deal you are a MAGE!

[keithcurtis]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Generally, my package deals contain the bare minimum necessary to model the concept, along with some suggestions for fleshing them out. If you don't buy Survival and a WF, you can't really call yourself a barbarian now, can you?

 

Keith "KISS" Curtis

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

That is not too far off from how we distinguish them. Package deals help in identifying the character and in some cases act kind of like a professional degree or union membership.

 

If you haven't bought the package deal you're just an icky little spellcaster. If you buy the package deal you are a MAGE!

Yeah. Well the point of my post was mostly in the emphasis of the word, "deal."

[Guest NGD Illuminati]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Yeah. Well the point of my post was mostly in the emphasis of the word' date=' "deal." [/quote']

In this we concur; the use of the term "deal" implies, in the most common understanding, a discount of some sort or a 'better offer' than one would otherwise obtain, say by purchasing the elements of the 'deal' seperately. As this is manifestly not the case with the so-called "package deals", our opinion is a new term should be found.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

Yeah. Well the point of my post was mostly in the emphasis of the word' date=' "deal." [/quote']

 

Do what I do: Don't use the word "deal". Just call them "Packages".

[The_Patriot]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I still use the bonuses from 4E in FRed because it makes sense and rewards players with creative thinking. I even use the disadvantages attributed to the package as well.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Package Deals in 5ER

 

I second the use of the term "package", minus the "deal". I use Packages in my Fantasy Hero game to define the various races. Each race has a Biology Package, which is mandatory for any member of that species, and an associated Culture Package, representing the typical skills and attitudes picked up in the most common culture for that species.

 

I DO count package disads against the disadvantage point total, but I do NOT count them against the limit for each category.

 

Zeropoint