How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

[dbcowboy]

I'm considering attempting to run my first PBEM/PBP hero game. I tend to prefer grim, gritty scenarios and since I recently watch War of the Worlds I've been considering an alien invasion setting. Rather than start with the initial invasion, I'd like to begin around 5 years after, with the planet devastated, only a little over a quarter of the populous still living and in the grip of the alien conquerors. The players will be young super-humans who are members of the resistance, finally old enough for their cell leaders to risk committing them to the field. This will prove to be a pivotal point; the resistance will finally see a glimmer of hope in succeeding where the Earth's mightiest heroes failed.

 

Question is: how?

 

I have an idea but I'm concerned that it may not be...I don't know...good enough. I mean really, if you're a player and you commit to a campaign and finally reach the end, you really don't want your first reaction to be: "that's it!?!"

 

So, with nothing more than the above information, how would you craft a scenario to bring about the freedom of the human race from alien oppression?

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

OK, off the top of my head, some classic methods in science fiction, with my own comments at the end:

 

1) The Alien Horde will all go away if you whack the Overlord.

1a) Variant: He who defeats the leader becomes the new leader of the Alien Horde.

 

Comments -- while both of these are sci-fi classics, they're also campy as hell. If you want a game with realistic thoroughness of concept, avoid like the plague. OTOH, if Silver Age is what you're going for, then these are just fine. It's all about what the players are willing to suspend disbelief on.

 

2) You don't need to defeat the aliens yourself, you just need to get the word out to those even bigger aliens over there.

 

Comments -- this reduces the goal of the game to "find a way to steal a starship, find a way to learn how to fly it, then it becomes a Star Hero campaign until you find the Galactic Federation and get their help."

 

Benefits of this approach are that it's one of the most realistic ways to get rid of an alien starfleet... by calling in another alien starfleet. Suspension of disbelief issues here are minimal. Drawbacks are that it's not exactly a valiant resistance fighters campaign if you spend the main amount of camera focus not valiantly resistance fighting, but instead doing a 'Farscape'-like saga navigating across a hostile galaxy in your little spaceship, until you reach the season-ender of finally arriving in Federation space.

 

3) The aliens aren't all evil, and if you can arrange for some Alien Regime Change, the new alien leaders will make peace with Earth.

 

Comments -- again, this is fairly high on the realism meter. If you make ye alien horde some interstellar banana republic dictatorship, then you can plausibly say that the current reigning dictator has rebel factions among his own people that already hate his ***. Perhaps that's why they're invading Earth in the first place... the old trick of 'find an external enemy to prop up your shaky rule'. Possibilities for this situation involve 'contacting the alien rebels and arranging a two-front war', 'if we simply hold out long enough the popular opinion on the alien home front will go against the war'(*), or a simple 'whack the dictator and enough of his inner circle to prevent an orderly succession, and the aliens will be too busy playing Throne War to finish up their Earth attack'. (This differs from scenario #1 in that there are actual analogues in history, as compared to the 'Scorpion King' or 'Chronicles of Riddick' ending.)

 

(*) Which has the odd effect of making this an interstellar version of the Vietnam War, with Earth as the North Vietnamese.

 

Drawbacks -- maybe your players won't *like* RP'ing the Vietnam War from the other side, or maybe they hate the idea of Earth being invaded by some interstellar banana republic. I dunno yer players, so you tell me.

 

4) The alien fleet is tough, but brittle -- once you get past the outer shell, you kills them easy.

 

This isn't so much an item as a category, so we break it down:

 

4a) The alien ships are great for bombarding from orbit, but they truly suck in space-to-space combat -- as soon as you figure out how to get an effective attack back up the gravity well, they die like flies.

 

This would mean that ye alien horde was not invading you with his best navy units, but was instead hitting only with troop transports and assault ships and suchlike. This is actually a defensible argument... after all, Earth is a primitive rock with no space travel. Drawbacks are, of course, that you then need to BS a really good explanation for why, after Earth has finally killed the 12th Planetary Bombardment Auxiliaries, the aliens don't then send over their 1st Invincible Superdreadnaught Squadron to Wave Motion Gun the entire planet into a radioactive glass beach ball.

 

4b) The alien ships are really really powerful, but there's only a few of them -- if you can figure out how to hit them from the inside, it only takes a few successes.

 

This is called "figuring out how to sneak you some nuclear satchel charges onto some alien supply shuttles", aka "take out the mothership". It's a bit of an 'Independence Day' ending, only without the part where the entire fleet dies to one computer virus. Since it can plausibly take a while for the players to a) find enough nukes and find ways to sneak them onto enough alien supplh shuttles, this might work.

 

5) By the time this mess is over, everybody will be superhuman.

 

Whatever beefed up the players into metahumans is reproducible -- only, the resistance don't have enough stuff to reproduce it wide-scale yet. The campaign then becomes a quest for the PCs to go out and beg, borrow, steal, or loot enough stuff so that the resistance can perform the Power-Making Process on a mass production level. Once everybody's a super-soldier, the aliens are of course smoked like beef jerky.

 

Drawbacks are, natch, that once you've done the end arc, the campaign can't really continue.

 

6) The Quest For The Power Booster Rod.

 

In this scenario, whatever made the players superhumans is not reproducble -- but if you can find the big macguffin, then their powers can get boosted from their current 'super-soldier' level all the way up to 'Fat Cracklin' Cosmic Power O' the Gods' level. Once they've all morphed into the JLA or the Authority in power-level, the alien fleet can be trashed in one glorious final battle o' ultraviolence.

 

Drawbacks are, natch, that once you've finished said glorious final battle, the campaign ends and those PCs are retired. OTOH, players generally tend to like storylines where they end up as demigods, so if you can fudge up a plausible and entertaining reason *why* this happened, then go for it.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

I think it's going to vary widely depending upon the aliens. I'd work them out , and how they rule the planet first. Ways to fight them should present themselves after that. One would resist the Kree differently than the Visitors from "V" and differently than the Cthorr.

 

Some questions:

 

*How many humans are left? How many aliens are on- or near- Earth?

 

*How did they take over?

 

*How is the occupation run? Aliens in secluded enclaves? Garrisons in major cities? Everybody tagged with a telepathic parasite? Direct oppression, or are there significant collaborators?

 

*Ecological changes? Are they "terraforming" the planet? If so, is this publicly known?

 

*Weak points in the aliens' biology or tech? Rely heavily on one type of weapon that might be able to be countered? Common Earth substance have a bad effect on them (like the Newcomers' problems with salt water)?

 

These and other questions to form "how the world is" would help determine possible ways to fight the invaders.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

Timothy Zahn's 'Blackcollar' SF novels posited a rather effective form of conquest.

 

In 'Blackcollar', the aliens weren't really all that numerous. (They did enjoy the usual benefits of interstellar travel, big honkin' laser cannons, etc., but there were nowhere near enough aliens to actually hold down a subject population as large as Earth's.)

 

However, since they had a process by which human beings could be permanently conditioned into loyal slaves, they didn't need to be. Hence, the bulk of their routine administrative functions and occupation troops were filled by humans, humans who were permanently brainlocked to be incapable of disloyalty or betrayal. (Even if they were still occasionally capable of stupidity, laziness, and error, but hey, that's sentience for you.)

 

The series ended when a method for undoing loyalty-conditioning was finally discovered. It took two books before that happened, tho, and actually kinda happened by accident.

 

(Baen Books is selling the entire series in ebook omnibus form for about $5 if you're interested. Check Webscriptions.)

 

Edit -- although I find Eric Flint's & K.D. Wentworth's "The Course of Empire" to be a much superior alien conquest story, if slightly less useful for mining for gaming ideas... and it's available online for *free*, from the Baen Free Library.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

That's not really your problem. They're going to come up with something you hadn't thought of, anyway. What you need are your best alien invaders. Avoid the mistakes of previous invasions.

 

1) Bring antibiotics.

2) Bring a raincoat if water dissolves your flesh.

3) Bring your society's l33t haxors.

 

Mind the infrastructure. It's what I would go after if I was the freedom fighter. Make sure your aliens HAVE an infrastructure of some sort that can be exploited. I'd want to hack the AIs. I'd foment a rebellion among the slave class of "other" aliens brought along to labor for the Big Baddies. If they set up a base of operations in Vegas, I'd take out the Hoover Dam. If all travel up and down the gravity well is done by elevator, I'd find the right time to sabotage it - kill the right dignitary, prevent the right info from getting where it needed to go, etc. I'd look for chokepoints in the alien info system, and exploit them. I'd introduce misinformation and disinformation. If I could generate a palace intrigue that would get number three to kill number two, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

What scares the aliens? I'd do that. Horror. Horror and moral terror.

 

What do the aliens want? They aren't getting it. If I can prevent their communication with their home world, I'd do it. If I can emabarass them when a dignitary shows up to inspect, I'd do it. I'd make Earth a policitally costly mistake for several people.

 

Do they care if we take hostages? If they care, we do it. Well and often.

 

I suggest reading "The White Mountains" by John Christopher. It's kids reading, but it's still pretty damn good. It takes place a few generations after an invasion, and does a reasonable job of showing aliens who rule the world and act like it.

 

Are you looking for four color? Because that would be hard to do here.

 

Now - do these aliens occupy like Romans, British, Huns, or Americans? I'll assume winning hearts and minds is low on their priority list, so we'll leave out "Americans." Do they wish to enculturate and exploit, or enslave, or consume and move on? It's important when designing a resistance movement.

 

When do you want subbmissions?

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

Re: infrastructure...

 

OK, since these guys have crossed interstellar space and all, presumably they have handy-dandy fusion or antimatter power plants. This leaves out choking their fuel supply.

 

Likewise, since they presumably are nowhere near stupid enough to use Earth slaveworkers in factories for producing their bang-bang tech... after all, that would require them to teach at least some humans how it *worked*... we can posit that either their advanced manufacturing is all done at the homeworld and shipped here, or it's done in nice big automated factories.

 

Now, if the auto-facs are kept in the asteroid belt and use metal ores mined from said belt for production -- which would make the most sense -- y'all are kinda screwed, Earthlings. OTOH, if they're kept groundside, they're potential targets. So fudge up a reason to keep them groundside. Note, 'bureaucratic stupidity', aka 'cost-effectiveness', is a viable reason. *g*

 

OK, so we've covered fuel, boots, and bullets. What's left? Food.

 

Presumably, the aliens are eating local food, even if they process raw grain or raw meat into incomprehensible alien glop. I say 'presumably' because if they can't even eat the local nutrients, WTF did they come here at all? Strategic location in an interstellar war? Occupy one of the outer planets or the belt. Denial of resources to the enemy? That argues for a Base-Delta-Zero (bombarding the surface of the planet into lava), not an occupation force. So, whatever they're having ranched or grown for them, poison it. Steal it. Or just set it on fire.

 

And last, we come to 'stuff for export'. Since the aliens came here and occupied the planet, but didn't blow it up, presumably there's something here they want. Whatever that stuff is, it's presumably being harvested, mined, etc., and boxed up for shipping back home, aka 'colonial exploitation of resources'. Now this is a logistical stream you can have fun screwing up -- after all, if the aliens can't get a sufficient return on investment for ths planet, maybe they'll go away. The possible variants on this are endless, so long as you don't get truly silly and do something like 'V' did. ("They're here for our water!" "Water? Isn't that harvestable by the megaton from comets, the rings of Saturn, etc?" "Sssssh!")

[BoneDaddy]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

Re: infrastructure...

 

Now, if the auto-facs are kept in the asteroid belt and use metal ores mined from said belt for production -- which would make the most sense -- y'all are kinda screwed, Earthlings. OTOH, if they're kept groundside, they're potential targets. So fudge up a reason to keep them groundside. Note, 'bureaucratic stupidity', aka 'cost-effectiveness', is a viable reason. *g*

Or make sure your players know that space travel within this star system should be figured into character creation.

 

(Not an altogether bad idea...)

[Wanderer]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

 

6) The Quest For The Power Booster Rod.

 

In this scenario, whatever made the players superhumans is not reproducble -- but if you can find the big macguffin, then their powers can get boosted from their current 'super-soldier' level all the way up to 'Fat Cracklin' Cosmic Power O' the Gods' level. Once they've all morphed into the JLA or the Authority in power-level, the alien fleet can be trashed in one glorious final battle o' ultraviolence.

 

Drawbacks are, natch, that once you've finished said glorious final battle, the campaign ends and those PCs are retired. OTOH, players generally tend to like storylines where they end up as demigods, so if you can fudge up a plausible and entertaining reason *why* this happened, then go for it.

 

Well, not necessarily. It depends on the actual power level involved, whether itìs really godlike. JLA or Authority-style campaigns are perfectly workable, if players are willing to explore a new direction for the game. After the glorious earth-saving battle has finished, and the heroes stand victorious on the final battlefileds, amid cheering earthlings and bannerwaving, their new powers stabilize on a suitable cosmic threshold (800-1000 pts.)... and then the REAL consequence of their new status show up: politica leaders of mankind all looking to the new JLA/Avengers/Authority as the perfect solution for stabilizing wordwide socio-political chaos, provide rescue to victims of the war, be a symbloic rallying point... and OTHER superhumans were permanently boosted to cosmic level and partecipated in the battle, and are thinking their efforts should be reawarding with a nice comfy throne... and the players' victory cast Earth, that previous neglegible backwater in the galring limlight of galactic politics: major interstellar empires are taking notice, nad wonder if Earth would be worth a preemptive strike, or should be made a protectorate of the Galactic Confederation, or the players are assumed to be natural leaders of Earth and made responsible for all of mankind's blunders (and there's that hyperadvanced civilization that thinks whale songs are a galactic treasure and whaling is absolutely intolerable act of ecological devastation that should be suppressed at any cost). Or enigmatic cosmic entities should up and inform the players that alien domination was the foreordained fate of mankind and players' actions messed with destiney creating a much worse mess in the future... etc.

 

With Godlike powers, comes an Hellish job schedule.

[Blue]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

The reason for invasion could have something to do with their vulnerability.

 

Consider: During the course of their underground work against the aliens, our heroes discover that something 'special' is being stored in an alien base. Figuring it's a new super-weapons or something, they break in. They discover instead it's another alien of a different race. They take him away as he was obviously being detained there.

 

Once they're able to communicate with him they discover that he's from a defeated race in a far off galaxy and he's come to bring word that the reason the aliens attack certain planets first is to "corner the market" on a given resource that is actually harmful to them. (Uranium, Iron Ore, etc.)

 

Armed with this knowledge our heroes put away their blasters and take up primitive weapons that will do more harm and begin their movement.

 

There could also be a a secret weapon planted on this world long ago by the other aliens, knowing it might someday be needed. This makes the campaign a hunt to find the weapon before the aliens do.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

There could also be a a secret weapon planted on this world long ago by the other aliens' date=' knowing it might someday be needed. This makes the campaign a hunt to find the weapon before the aliens do.[/quote']

Nifty idea.

"Quick - to the pyramids!"

"Which ones?"

"... um ..."

[boomer]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

The way to have fun and have it be a long campaign is to not have the Heroes be Supers.......have them be normal Humans who are fighting back against their Alien Oppressors.......first game have them find a store of low powered alien weapons, etc.......my group was doing a game that took place 51 years after an Alien invasion. It was interesting because the greatest items my character had were a lead pipe and a tupperware lid (defensive weapon and something to eat off of.....)

[dbcowboy]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

Wanted to thank everyone for their input, I've been thinking on it for a while now. It has all been very helpful.

 

What are the aliens like?

Well, nothing's definite. I'm considering have them be the survivors of an assault force that is unable to find it's way back to it's home. Mixed races, I'm leaning towards using some of the aliens from another RPG, BattleLords of the 23rd Century. Having multiple races will mean more work but I thought the variety would be interesting. At least one will have psychic abilities in healing. I'm thinking that if I did use the one that has telepathy there will be only a few of them since that could really make it difficult to have a hidden resistance movement when they can just read any captives minds.

 

How did they get here?

I'm thinking of having them be the remnants of a defense fleet from a huge battle in a far-off galaxy. They ended up scatter in nearby space as they retreated through a huge hyperspace gate in one of their home galaxies (9 galaxies make up their empire) during an epic event that distrupted the hyperspace tunnel. They have no way to get back home and are not sure exactly where home is.

 

How Many Aliens are There?

Lots but I'm unsure how far I want to go. Somewhere between 50 and 5000 warships maybe plus a smaller number of support ships. If I decided to go with a large number I was considering having the bulk of the fleet engaged with another nearby alien empire. I was thinking a smaller number of support ships since that offered the opportunity of supplies issues and difficulty for the aliens in keeping up the maintenance on their ships. The humans will suffer under 5 years of occupation but so will the aliens.

 

Four Color

No. No way. I'm thinking the players won't be psychopathic killers (I'm sure the resistance has some but it won't be the players). Code Against Killing would be a bad idea but Reluctant to Kill will probably be assumed if it's not actually on the character sheet. I definitely want heroes.

 

How Did They Takeover

I was thinking that some of the ships of the fleet appeared near the Sol system and, because they detected a life-bearing world, met the humans. Things were pleasant at first but after more and more ships arrived over the following weeks/months, the leaders of Earth started to get nervous. Then the day came the aliens attacked in force. The humans were somewhat prepared but it turned out that a large number of alien ships were just outside of the solar system, undetected by Earth. Humanity didn't realize just how many ships there were and were not prepared for the full assault.

 

How Many Humans are Left

Let's say, less than 2 billion (less than a third of humanity survives). They will also have the Atlantean and the surviving Empyrean allies. Arcadia was bombarded as the Empryean shield did not hide them from the alien's advanced sensors. The aliens are not aware of the location of Atlantis yet.

 

Alien Weak Points

Some are susceptible to Mercury poisioning. Some are methane breathers and cannot survive long exposure to Earth atmosphere without masks. Just vaires from species to species. In either case, their technology will be their strong point though I'm thinking real magic will be unknown to them and difficult for them to detect and counter. At this point though magic should be rare. Their resources should be under stress as they have fewer support ships able to refine the necessary materials and perform repairs on their large number of ships.

 

Reason for the Invasion

As far as everyone knows, it was to secure the resources to maintain the fleet until they could find a way to contact their home galaxies.

 

How is the Occupation Run

The enslaved humans live on the outskirts of old Earth urban areas in tent cities and makeshift building where the aliens can manage them. They are largely regulated to agriculture to grow the foodstuffs to support themselves and the aliens. The aliens reside in ships that have been landed nearby each agriculture enclave. The ruins of the cities are inhabited by the few escaped slaves and resistance cells.

 

Terraforming

No, no need. Not all the races are comfortable in an Earth environment but most are.

 

Players Super-powered or Normal

I think I definitely want them to be supers, if nothing else than because of the high tech-level of the aliens. I'm thinking two or three aliens in their powered armor will be an even match for a 250 point hero, 60 active point max.

 

hmmmm, that's what I've been thinking so far.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

First thought that comes to my mind -- these guys are cut off from home, running entirely minus backup or any logistic support that they can't scrounge or make themselves, and the first thing they do is pick a fight rather than ask Earth's cooperation, and the second thing they do is slag most of Earth's existing industrial infrastructure and 65% of its available labor force? When most of them can't even breathe the air here unfiltered?

 

These guys either have gaping ideological psych lims (racist supremacy, innate savagery, drow-style civilization built so much on backstabbing that they can't even grasp the concept of 'asking nicely', etc.) or else they is just plain dumb. Even a species as amoral as the Ferengi can grasp the concept of 'the less stable your bargaining position, the more politely you ask'.

 

Second thought that comes to my mind -- umm, the Empyreans are capable of reassembling the /Mandragalore/. You know, ye ancient Lemurian planet-cracking weapon o' doom, that in the default Champions timeline was such a threatening force that Istvatha V'Han's entire invasion force -- the Galactic Champions one, i.e, the one that actually remembered to arrive in overwhelming #'s instead of pussyfooting around -- backed off from. (Not to mention that even without the Mandralagore, the Empyreans are possessed of a very nicely high tech level, as well as big fat loads o' metahuman power... and if Arcadia got bombarded from space, I somehow imagine their usual 'Prime Directive' policy would be rapidly replaced by a 'Screw this, let's just have Builder Zadin teach humanity how to make man-portable fusion cannons' policy.). Y'all might want to patch up your timeline a bit to explain why these Empyreans aren't quite as buff as the regular model. Or something.

[dbcowboy]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

First thought that comes to my mind -- these guys are cut off from home' date=' running entirely minus backup or any logistic support that they can't scrounge or make themselves, and the first thing they do is pick a fight rather than ask Earth's cooperation, and the second thing they do is slag most of Earth's existing industrial infrastructure and 65% of its available labor force? When most of them can't even breathe the air here unfiltered?[/quote']

 

The races of the fleet will view humanity as less than barbarians. Their technology would be of limited interest which I was thinking might be one of the aliens' weaknesses: underestimating the humans. They would expect to have to build factilities to maintain their equipment or manufacture it on their support ships. I shouldn't discount Earth tech completely though. Only two races of potentially nine breathe methane and they could probably survive quite well on Mars or Titan. They simply need foodstuff or matter than can be converted into their foodstuff. They also don't need all the humans, only enough to maintain their existing fleet. I was thinking that 2 billions humans was more than enough.

 

These guys either have gaping ideological psych lims (racist supremacy' date=' innate savagery, drow-style civilization built so much on backstabbing that they can't even grasp the concept of 'asking nicely', etc.) or else they is just plain dumb. Even a species as amoral as the Ferengi can grasp the concept of 'the less stable your bargaining position, the more politely you ask'.[/quote']

 

One or two of the races: big-time superiority complex, if I go with these races, that's a definite. Most though will just be soldiers following the chain of command. I have an underlying sub-plot in mind for why they attacked, but I guess the thing you point out have been part of my delima on how many ships to have in the alien's fleet. The more ships, the more desperate their supply situation would be become as they were unable to support their personnel/equipment BUT the more easily they would be able to simply overwhelm the primitive humans.

 

Second thought that comes to my mind -- umm' date=' the Empyreans are capable of reassembling the /Mandragalore/. You know, ye ancient Lemurian planet-cracking weapon o' doom, that in the default Champions timeline was such a threatening force that Istvatha V'Han's entire invasion force -- the [b']Galactic Champions[/b] one, i.e, the one that actually remembered to arrive in overwhelming #'s instead of pussyfooting around -- backed off from. (Not to mention that even without the Mandralagore, the Empyreans are possessed of a very nicely high tech level, as well as big fat loads o' metahuman power... and if Arcadia got bombarded from space, I somehow imagine their usual 'Prime Directive' policy would be rapidly replaced by a 'Screw this, let's just have Builder Zadin teach humanity how to make man-portable fusion cannons' policy.). Y'all might want to patch up your timeline a bit to explain why these Empyreans aren't quite as buff as the regular model. Or something.

 

Unfortunatley I don't have Galactic Champions; I don't recall if Hidden Lands says whether or not the Empryans of the modern day know how to reassemble the Mangralagore or not. If so then the survivors might be in the process of that, assuming the Lemurians let them anywhere near it. I was thinking Lemuria woud sit this one out, hiding and hoping they could avoid notice, even though their magic might be very useful against the aliens. The Empyreans, meanwhile, did not expect to be detected and targeted during the bombardment so did not take complete precautions. Ideally I'd like to use the standard Champions timeline as the beginning of the game (though obviously it diverges from there pretty significantly) so I'll have to consider this some more. The truth is, I want the Empyreans to figure strongly into the story. I'm thinking of the average Empyrean being no more powerful than your standard 350 point hero. That just leads me back to the question: okay, then how big would my alien fleet need to be to overwhelm them?

 

Thanks Chuckg, I got a lot to think about.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

> The races of the fleet will view humanity as less than barbarians. [snip]

 

Ah, racist supremacist ****tards then.

 

> One or two of the races: big-time superiority complex, if I go with

> these races, that's a definite. Most though will just be soldiers

> following the chain of command.

 

Remember that "I was just following orders!" is not a moral defense. Your players will.

 

[snip]

> Unfortunatley I don't have Galactic Champions; I don't recall if Hidden

> Lands says whether or not the Empryans of the modern day know

> how to reassemble the Mangralagore or not.

 

Given that the Empyreans spent the time between the end of the modern superhero age (2020) and the return of magic (Kolvel Event, 3001) in hibernation, they really ain't likely to have learned how in the interim. Especially given that V'Han attacked the GalChamps era within a year of the Kolvel Event, and that the last time the Mandralagore was seen was over 20 millenia ago or whatnot.

 

> If so then the survivors might be in the process of that, assuming the

> Lemurians let them anywhere near it.

 

The Lemurians built it for killing the Empyreans with. Their first shot with it backfired and blew up most of Lemuria instead. The Mandalagore wasn't seen again after that until the GalChamps era -- apparently, the Empyreans sifted through the rubble of Lemuria to pick up all the bits and carried them back to their equivalent of Warehouse 23. In the interim, they also appear to have fixed the bug. Then again, the Empyreans do have the better technologists, plus lots more time to tinker.

 

> I was thinking Lemuria woud sit this one out, hiding and hoping they

> could avoid notice, even though their magic might be very useful

> against the aliens. The Empyreans, meanwhile, did not expect to be

> detected and targeted during the bombardment so did not take

> complete precautions.

 

Eh? The Empyreans are grade-A isolationists who have been hiding from the world since before the Turakian Age. Doctor Destroyer can't find Arcadia, it's got so much cloaking tech on it. Nama can't find Arcadia even though VIPER knows it exists and have been looking!

 

Again, you might want to rewrite the Empyreans for your timeline, as your timeline has them operating well below their usual norms.

 

> Ideally I'd like to use the standard Champions timeline as the beginning

> of the game (though obviously it diverges from there pretty

> significantly) so I'll have to consider this some more.

 

Another thing to consider is that if you're using the standard Champions Universe, a lot of the galaxy map has already been filled in -- and since these guys obviously aren't the Varanyi, Perseids, Ackalians, Thorgons, Xenovores, etc, etc, then precisely who is they and where did they come from?

 

Also, now that Earth has had the bejeebers blown out of it, what stops any one of the other spacefaring powers from showing up and going 'Thanks for weakening it, now we'll finish the job!' I mean, the way you describe these guys, they are *not* in shape to survive a full-court press by *another* invading starfleet that *does* have a nice supply link to home... and the Varanyi and Istvatha V'Han, to name two, could arsewhip pretty much anyone who isn't themselves at ATRI 12 or higher.

 

> The truth is, I want the Empyreans to figure strongly into the story.

> I'm thinking of the average Empyrean being nore more powerful than

> your standard 350 point hero. That just leads me back to the

> question: okay, then how big would my alien fleet need to be to

> overwhelm them?

 

Depending on how much you're willing to lose in the process, you could 'overwhelm' them with a race as not-formidable as the Hzeel... you'd just have to be willing to accept massive casualties, and they'd have to be really stupid. The one Empyrean weakness is that they're *not* very numerous. There's only several thousand or so, after all. (Not counting the ones stuck in Silence, but they're a non-factor.)

 

The problem here is that the credible storyline options pretty much reduce either to "they never found Arcadia" or "they nuked it from space so hard that the entire place is vapor". This leaves your Empyrean PCs either with a solid support base and a lot of powerful NPCs, as well as a secret resistance HQ that can then proceed to organize surviving humanity and teach 'em how to make fusion cannons -- or else it leaves them homeless refugees whose leaders are now all vapor. (It's quite possible to nuke Empyreans to death, it's just not easy.)

 

There's not much of a middle ground, really. Gradually wearing Arcadia down doesn't work -- Empyreans have thousands of years of experience, and concentrate very much on survival. i.e. -- as soon as they see that they're seriously losing a siege of attrition, they'll pull the periscope down and run away to somewhere else, leaving Arcadia behind to blow up in the invaders' faces... and with the Empyrean tech base, you'd have to seriously tech up the invaders, to the point where they're not really beatable by Earth anymore, to say that said invaders would be entirely capable of preventing Empyreans with prep time from leaving an enclosure that they wanted to leave. (Given that their tech base can potentially be 'anything invented on Earth-Champions plus half of the Progenitors' stuff -- which most definitely includes teleporters!)

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

Since you're going to be drastically changing so much anyways, why bother trying to fit things into the canon CU? Take what you want, rename what you want to use in a non-canon way, ignore the rest.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

As a note on the tech difficulties............ Why use everything to its full strength?

 

Think for a moment. In lots of situation, people and nations (stupidly or wisely) do not commit their fullest resources/arsenal/potential to a conflict, for a variety of reasons (stupid or wise). One example would be Vietnam, in which it took years for the American government to really commit the resources necessary, and even then it wasn't done fully or properly.

 

Worried about the fusion cannons being an ex machina? Fine. Have them react with the invaders' shields in a catastrophic manner: the energy principles involved means that the shields undergo a significant exergonic reaction when in the presence of fusion bombardment. I.E. They explode. They explode big enough to pose a real danger to destroying the entire planet. Like in the "Dune" setting, in which the Holtzman shields went nova when hit with a laser.

 

This would discourage the use of these cannons except when in space, but boy oh boy when it is used........ your players will be cheering.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

> As a note on the tech difficulties............ Why use everything to its full

> strength?

 

Because the alien invaders have already conquered the planet and killed two-thirds of the Earth's population. At this point, who holds back anything?

 

> Think for a moment. In lots of situation, people and nations (stupidly

> or wisely) do not commit their fullest resources/arsenal/potential to a

> conflict, for a variety of reasons (stupid or wise). One example would

> be Vietnam [snip]

 

Vietnam is not the proper analogy for this conflict. (At least, not from the standpoint of the *Earth*.) World War III is. The sort of World War III where cities have already been nuked.

 

At this point, Earth throws everything it got, because they are fighting for nothing less than the survival of the human species.

 

[snip]

> Worried about the fusion cannons being an ex machina?

 

'Fusion cannons' was just one example. In canon, Arcadia isn't exactly known as a fusion cannon manufacturing center.

 

What it *IS* known as is a society that had CU-superhero-level-tech over sixty thousand years ago, and hasn't exactly been burning all its libraries down in the interim. In addition to their having inherited fragments of Progenitor technology. In addition to their habits of spying on the world, and collecting interesting things therefrom. In addition to their having major-league telepaths with which to do said spying, in addition to major-league lots of other stuff. Therefore, Arcadia can be reasonably presumed to have the potential capacity for any technology that has shown up anywhere on Earth-Champions, save possibly for the ultimate top-end one-of-a-kind unique-o items, such as the Mandralagore (they had to salvage the original, they couldn't build one).

 

This has an obvious potential effect on an 'alien invaders' campaign, if only for the simple reason that instead of the resistance fighters having to scrounge guns, Builder Zadin of the Empyreans could easily set up some secret underground robot mass production factories (and VIPER canonically had this capacity, i.e,. the Empyreans could easily do it if they ever wanted -- they don't do it now as they have no need) for building everything from cruise missiles to tanks.

 

> Fine. Have them react with the invaders' shields in a catastrophic

> manner: the energy principles involved means that the shields undergo

> a significant exergonic reaction when in the presence of fusion

> bombardment. I.E. They explode. They explode big enough to pose a

> real danger to destroying the entire planet. Like in the "Dune" setting,

> in which the Holtzman shields went nova when hit with a laser.

 

> This would discourage the use of these cannons except when in space,

> but boy oh boy when it is used........ your players will be

> cheering.

 

Actually, my players would point out that any race whose shield technologies had this kind of weakness would have never lived long enough to conquer Earth, as they would have been resoundingly obliterated in their first or second interstellar war.

 

The 'Dune' fudge worked because Dune had a monolithic empire in place *before* the development of the Holtzman shield -- the only kind of warfare they really worried about was inter-House warfare, wherein nukes are entirely verboten. And the Spacing Guild had a monopoly on space transport, so there *was* no interstellar space combat. What you call 'special circumstances'.

 

This is the CU, however, where neither condition exists, and whereupon the only logical result of having starship shields that explode when hit with fusion cannons is "As soon as anybody figures this out, the next fleet they send to kill you uses nothing but fusion cannons, and happily blows up your entire starfleet, all your starbases, and all your planets. From hundreds of thousands of kilometers away. Then they laugh."

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

I'm sorry, you missed the point of my post. Easy to do, I wasn't really doing my best.

 

First, on the tech bit: Since these people are so advanced, maybe they are the only ones who have figured out this whole fusion weapon bit. That is why it is reasonable for all other space fleets out there to use these shields. Because to them, they are top of the line and foolproof. Also, the Dune fudge worked because the lasers were considered obsolete years before the the technology for shields was developed. If you don't want your invaders to be dumber than this race, have them be "smarter" and have more efficient weapons. "Who uses fusion cannons anymore? Haha! They will never penetrate our shiel-*KAABOOOOOOOOOOM*"

 

I actually do think Vietnam would be the appropriate analogy (with Earth as the Vietnamese, both North AND South), because Earth WON'T be fighting back with everything its got. Most of the population has been subjugated. Most of the industry and weapons infrastructures have been wiped out. The first goal will be survival in the face of an enemy with superior position, technology, and firepower, and then after that fighting back. The only advantage the humans have is: A) this is home turf,and They are fighting for everything they hold dear. No holds barred.

 

BUT- they still wouldn't use these weapons if they knew that it could destroy their entire planet. Unless it was a final resort in the face of final defeat. Now, if the ships get out towards vacum, then hell yes, they would be FROTHING at the mouth to use these guns on their enemies.

 

The point overall is that you just need to come up with a semi-plausible excuse as to why people would CHOOSE not to use fullest assets of this technology.

 

 

Oh yeah...... the production capacities don't seem too worrisome to me, because they would not be in the least controlled by the PCs. "You want tanks? They will just get blown up. Sure, we can save them for some critical battle, but you can't go and pull a Rommell on us. A nuke? Are you crazy? I'm not just going to give you a nuke to carry around!!! Tell me when you have a specific plan, and THEN I'll see what I can do." You can use it to give the PCs what they need for session to session survival, and save the special stuff for special occasions.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

If they're so advanced that even other starfaring nations haven't figured it out, *AND* Earth has lost so much of its stuff, then the game is not rationally winnable.

 

[snip]

> The point overall is that you just need to come up with a

> semi-plausible excuse as to why people would CHOOSE not to use

> fullest assets of this technology.

 

Unfortunately, 'we're holding back' is not even a remotely semi-plausible excuse... not when aliens have conquered the entire planet and killed two-thirds of it. At this point, you use everything you got, 'cause your situation is spelled D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-E.

 

And don't forget, these are /player characters/ we are talking about here. They are not going to listen to any DM suggestions to hold back. They will gladly scrounge up and use anything you've left as potentially available on the game map. So, what the DM needs to do is come up with why certain things are not potentially available, as opposed to saying that certain things *are* potentially available but everybody is just ignoring them.

 

Otherwise, you get the Sunnydale Effect, aka 'the reason the players are necessary to save the place is because everybody except them has the IQ of a carrot'. Some players don't like this.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

If they're so advanced that even other starfaring nations haven't figured it out, *AND* Earth has lost so much of its stuff, then the game is not rationally winnable.

 

[snip]

> The point overall is that you just need to come up with a

> semi-plausible excuse as to why people would CHOOSE not to use

> fullest assets of this technology.

 

Unfortunately, 'we're holding back' is not even a remotely semi-plausible excuse... not when aliens have conquered the entire planet and killed two-thirds of it. At this point, you use everything you got, 'cause your situation is spelled D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-E.

 

And don't forget, these are /player characters/ we are talking about here. They are not going to listen to any DM suggestions to hold back. They will gladly scrounge up and use anything you've left as potentially available on the game map. So, what the DM needs to do is come up with why certain things are not potentially available, as opposed to saying that certain things *are* potentially available but everybody is just ignoring them.

 

Otherwise, you get the Sunnydale Effect, aka 'the reason the players are necessary to save the place is because everybody except them has the IQ of a carrot'. Some players don't like this.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't sure what you first reponse was towards. I assume you directed it towrads the invaders in response to something I said, but what I was saying is that this race on EARTH is so advanced that... yadda yadda yadda.

 

Don't forget: Just because you are really advanced, doesn't mean you know everything, or even a lot. There are still tons of little things that can add up, such as "Holy Crap! Our shields go nova when in the presence of fusion energy? Why didn't the R&D geeks check this!" *Adjunt meekly raises tentacle* "Budget cuts sir, combined with the fact that fusion weapons are so outdated anyway..."

 

I don't care how you spell the situation, the only correct spelling for using a weapon that kills you as well as your enemy as anything other than a left is S-T-U-P-I-D. I am saying that you should rule that the explosion is big enough that if used against one of the ships within Earth's atmosphere, it has a 50/50 of cracking the core of the planet open. If the player's choose to do so, knowing this, fine, run with it. It will certainl be interesting. But...... they would have to STEAL the weapons from this advanced Earth race, because THEY would never willingly have it used like that.

 

Not to mention, it doesn't even have to be holding back. There aren't that many resources available, and some of those that are available are too scared to fight or traitors to their species!

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

> I'm sorry, I wasn't sure what you first reponse was towards.

 

The whole 'their shields are so advanced that nobody's figured out the shield interaction problem' thing.

 

(As well as the 'if none of the advanced civilizations in the universe have ever figured this out, how the hell did EARTH figure it out?' thing. Seeing as how the planet ain't blowed up yet, we obviously didn't find out the hard way...')

 

[snip]

> Don't forget: Just because you are really advanced, doesn't mean you

> know everything, or even a lot. There are still tons of little things that

> can add up, such as "Holy Crap! Our shields go nova when in the

> presence of fusion energy? Why didn't the R&D geeks check this!"

> *Adjunt meekly raises tentacle* "Budget cuts sir, combined with the

> fact that fusion weapons are so outdated anyway..."

 

This works absolutely fine if you are doing the comedy genre. Indeed, if you're doing a comedy game, reaching this level of performance gets you an A+.

 

If you are doing serious science fiction, however, this is the point at which your players will probably be throwing their dice bags at your head. Or blowing the planet up just because they'll never get another chance to do it in a game. (Even in SF campaigns, the chances to play with planet-busting force are few and far between. Some players would never forgive themselves for passing up such an opportunity, even if it /was/ the planet their character was standing on, and even if it /would/ prematurely end the campaign. After all, new campaigns will be along soon enough. Campaigns that actually let them blow up the world in a chain reaction, however, somewhat rarer.)

 

> I don't care how you spell the situation, the only correct spelling for

> using a weapon that kills you as well as your enemy as anything other

> than a left is S-T-U-P-I-D.

 

And my point was that when you're at this level of desperation, any weapon potentially available on the game map will be tried at least once by the players, until they find something that works.(1) So if you have something you don't want them to try, don't fudge up overcomplicated or silly reasons why they don't work, but simply don't make them available on the game map.

 

Doing such may, however, require rewriting certain elements of the CU to be less sophisticated than they normally are, or simply writing them out of the plot entirely.

 

I also might repeat that if you give player characters the ability to blow up the planet, there's a 50-50 chance that somebody might do it anyway, just because they've never actually had a chance to blow up a planet before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) For that matter, if you leave a fusion cannon lying around the game map, some player is probably going to use it at least once on a crippled kobold, even if they could've just beaten that kobold to death with a rock. After all, how often do you get a chance to use a fusion cannon?

 

(Edit -- no, I am not a munchkin, or a mindless gun bunny, or etc. OTOH, y'all don't *need* to be one of those to still feel the temptation. Besides, if you're being silly enough that your players want to throw their dice bags at your head, they might also want to take the opportunity to slam the Reset button and move on to another game... and by putting a big "SHOOT HERE TO END THE WORLD" opportunity right there in front of them, well, that's the reset button!)

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

>

 

 

 

(As well as the 'if none of the advanced civilizations in the universe have ever figured this out, how the hell did EARTH figure it out?' thing. Seeing as how the planet ain't blowed up yet, we obviously didn't find out the hard way...')

 

[snip]

> Don't forget: Just because you are really advanced, doesn't mean you

> know everything, or even a lot. There are still tons of little things that

> can add up, such as "Holy Crap! Our shields go nova when in the

> presence of fusion energy? Why didn't the R&D geeks check this!"

> *Adjunt meekly raises tentacle* "Budget cuts sir, combined with the

> fact that fusion weapons are so outdated anyway..."

 

This works absolutely fine if you are doing the comedy genre. Indeed, if you're doing a comedy game, reaching this level of performance gets you an A+.

 

If you are doing serious science fiction, however, this is the point at which your players will probably be throwing their dice bags at your head. Or blowing the planet up just because they'll never get another chance to do it in a game. (Even in SF campaigns, the chances to play with planet-busting force are few and far between. Some players would never forgive themselves for passing up such an opportunity, even if it /was/ the planet their character was standing on, and even if it /would/ prematurely end the campaign. After all, new campaigns will be along soon enough. Campaigns that actually let them blow up the world in a chain reaction, however, somewhat rarer.)

 

> I don't care how you spell the situation, the only correct spelling for

> using a weapon that kills you as well as your enemy as anything other

> than a left is S-T-U-P-I-D.

 

And my point was that when you're at this level of desperation, any weapon potentially available on the game map will be tried at least once by the players, until they find something that works.(1) So if you have something you don't want them to try, don't fudge up overcomplicated or silly reasons why they don't work, but simply don't make them available on the game map.

 

Doing such may, however, require rewriting certain elements of the CU to be less sophisticated than they normally are, or simply writing them out of the plot entirely.

 

I also might repeat that if you give player characters the ability to blow up the planet, there's a 50-50 chance that somebody might do it anyway, just because they've never actually had a chance to blow up a planet before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) For that matter, if you leave a fusion cannon lying around the game map, some player is probably going to use it at least once on a crippled kobold, even if they could've just beaten that kobold to death with a rock. After all, how often do you get a chance to use a fusion cannon?

 

(Edit -- no, I am not a munchkin, or a mindless gun bunny, or etc. OTOH, y'all don't *need* to be one of those to still feel the temptation. Besides, if you're being silly enough that your players want to throw their dice bags at your head, they might also want to take the opportunity to slam the Reset button and move on to another game... and by putting a big "SHOOT HERE TO END THE WORLD" opportunity right there in front of them, well, that's the reset button!)

 

See, part of the problem is: I have no idea what any of this material actually is. I just know that we are talking about some really advanced race that apparently lives on Earth, in secret. I would assume THEY would be the ones smart enough to discover the shields.

 

I think it could work in a serious genre. Just because they kicked your butt in a war, doesn't mean that they don't make the same stupid mistakes that you sometimes do. Such as doing a full range of possible checks on all contingencies, or getting rid of that annoying bueracracy.

 

Ok, on the desperate measures bit: I agree, but I still think that any rational player would only use these weapons, as stated in my hypothetical solution, in one of three situations. First, it appears that they have lost the final battle, and the only thing left is to make it as bloody as possible. As the resistance headquarters are being overrun, and the evil overlord is launching into his grand finale speech...... that's when the pain starts, and ends, permanently. Second, in very specific circumstances in which there would be NO damage to Earth (or at least very little). Optimal for taking out bases and fleets on or near other planets, moons, and asteroids. Third: If the character was not liking the campaign, and as you put it, wanted to hit "Reset." Which I had considered, and actually thought of as another perk. Gives everyone a fun way out if they aren't enjoying themselves.

 

Although, I must admit, I hadn't fully considered (FULLY, mind you) the possibility of a player just doing it for the HELL of it, regardless of the other players' wants. If that action was against the wishes of the party, then I think GM fiat would be more than acceptable to avoid this, because it would be the same thing as having a player who was constantly ruining the fun in any other way. However, if no one objected, then by all means........ BLOW 'EM all to pieces and let God sort 'em out!

 

However, the ultimate reason still remains: You merely need to provide a reason for the players to WANT to not abuse these advantages, by providing significant enough deterrents and consequences, while simultaneously allowing for them to follow other options. If there is only ONE real option, no matter how bad that option is, they will take it. If there are several options, with the abusive one being rather......... well................ not very useful to the ultimate goal of SAVING the planet, or achieving victory in a true sense, then they will MOST LIKELY puruse the other options first.

[Chuckg]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

> However, the ultimate reason still remains: You merely need to provide a

> reason for the players to WANT to not abuse these advantages, by

> providing significant enough deterrents and consequences, while

> simultaneously allowing for them to follow other options.

 

Or you could simply not have the options available in the first place.

 

You are talking to a man who has heard of players killing themselves with a falling anvil trap, when the trap was 'cleverly' concealed by a big rope hanging down and a big neon sign next to it saying "DO NOT PULL THE ROPE."

 

I might also point out that there is no way, in the scenario you posit, for the players to find out about the fusion/shield interaction except by trial and error. Given that their first error will destroy the planet, this is obviously not workable.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to Overthrow the Alien Overlords?

 

> However, the ultimate reason still remains: You merely need to provide a

> reason for the players to WANT to not abuse these advantages, by

> providing significant enough deterrents and consequences, while

> simultaneously allowing for them to follow other options.

 

Or you could simply not have the options available in the first place.

 

You are talking to a man who has heard of players killing themselves with a falling anvil trap, when the trap was 'cleverly' concealed by a big rope hanging down and a big neon sign next to it saying "DO NOT PULL THE ROPE."

 

I might also point out that there is no way, in the scenario you posit, for the players to find out about the fusion/shield interaction except by trial and error. Given that their first error will destroy the planet, this is obviously not workable.

 

I disagree. I don't think you should so severely limit the characters. I think you should either trust them, or at the very least let them have fun and be responsible for their own actions.

 

And, actually, this entire event was brought about by this "smart" race on Earth, and as I have been saying..... let THEM discover (via actually studying their enemies) the THEORY that this will occur. Who knows? Maybe it WON'T occur... DUM DUM DUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It really should though, or the PCs really WILL throw stuff at you, especially if some crucial plan depended upon it.