Summon as Duplication

[radioKAOS]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

...This I must disagree with, but only do to historical fact.

 

Love it.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

I declare this thread needs a card.

 

Granted, it's nothing fancy, but it's cheap.

[ATTACH]20640[/ATTACH]

[Zed-F]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

There are some potentially huge advantages to being able to summon someone who looks like you and is willing to die at your command that go way beyond the same thing but with someone who doesn't look like you ESPECIALLY if they are, in effect, duplicates with all your meories and such.

 

I'd think long and hard before allowing this construct.

How else are you going to build someone like Multiple Man?

 

Now I will grant that Multiple Man might not fit well in many games. But if he is in your game, that's how you build him: with Summon, not Duplication.

[Kristopher]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

How else are you going to build someone like Multiple Man?

 

Now I will grant that Multiple Man might not fit well in many games. But if he is in your game, that's how you build him: with Summon, not Duplication.

 

 

Given "the rest" of his powerset, any team with Multiple Man on it has a nickname amongst its opponents..."Target Rich Environment".

 

OK, that's unfair, but he's still one of the ultimate One Trick Ponies.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Given "the rest" of his powerset, any team with Multiple Man on it has a nickname amongst its opponents..."Target Rich Environment".

 

OK, that's unfair, but he's still one of the ultimate One Trick Ponies.

yeah, but he has a nasty killing attack trick:D

[megaplayboy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

I've contemplated the idea of buying a follower as a duplicate(which would wind up costing twice as many points as a follower, but would have the potentially huge advantage of the follower always being under the complete control of the player, rather than the GM).

[radioKAOS]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

I've contemplated the idea of buying a follower as a duplicate(which would wind up costing twice as many points as a follower' date=' but would have the potentially huge advantage of the follower always being under the complete control of the player, rather than the GM).[/quote']

 

Would you then make the follwers 'non persistent'? or add 'costs END'?

 

Interesting thought...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Without wishing to get all international on you' date=' I might have to dispute your assertion that there would not BE a genre:D[/quote']

 

I should amend my statement to read: The genre (of comic books in general) would not exist as we know it, and would rather be dominated by foriegn influences, such as manga. The conventions used in such comics would not exist and the stories that are now legend would never have come to be.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Summon can of course make sense (at times) as a replacement to Followers as well. Check out the D&D 3.5 definition of a Paladin's mount.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Summon can of course make sense (at times) as a replacement to Followers as well. Check out the D&D 3.5 definition of a Paladin's mount.

 

Aww, do we have to?

 

I thought we were having a civilized conversation here, no need to fling dirt like that!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Would you then make the follwers 'non persistent'? or add 'costs END'?

 

Interesting thought...

Nah...actually I think the simplest thing to do would be to create a +1 advantage on followers--"Player controlled". The follower is completely under the control of the player, not the GM. Any interaction between the GM and the follower is conducted as though the follower was one of the player's characters.

 

Many GM's would scream at that concept. "No, see, he's MY fanatically loyal servant, and he always does exactly what I want him to. He doesn't run off at inconvenient moments, or give me attitude when I ask him to do something fairly routine for me."

If I wanted to give the GM a foil to mess with me, I'd take a DNPC--I don't expect my followers to be treated as DNPCs or actively resentful of doing what's normally expected of them(if the PC is abusing them or doing something that realistically would trigger such a response, of course that's reasonable roleplay/interaction).

[radioKAOS]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Nah...actually I think the simplest thing to do would be to create a +1 advantage on followers--"Player controlled". The follower is completely under the control of the player, not the GM. Any interaction between the GM and the follower is conducted as though the follower was one of the player's characters.

 

Many GM's would scream at that concept. "No, see, he's MY fanatically loyal servant, and he always does exactly what I want him to. He doesn't run off at inconvenient moments, or give me attitude when I ask him to do something fairly routine for me."

If I wanted to give the GM a foil to mess with me, I'd take a DNPC--I don't expect my followers to be treated as DNPCs or actively resentful of doing what's normally expected of them(if the PC is abusing them or doing something that realistically would trigger such a response, of course that's reasonable roleplay/interaction).

 

Totally agreed, and repped.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Aren't most sidekicks masochistic and lacking in the self image department anyway?

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

yeah' date=' but he has a nasty killing attack trick:D[/quote']

Multiple Man can use his power to do more than duplicate himself? What does he do, create a duplicate in the same space as another person?

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

How else are you going to build someone like Multiple Man?

 

Now I will grant that Multiple Man might not fit well in many games. But if he is in your game, that's how you build him: with Summon, not Duplication.

What about Multiple Man can you not do with Duplication? He's pretty much the archetypal use of Duplication, I would think.

[Vondy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

What about Multiple Man can you not do with Duplication? He's pretty much the archetypal use of Duplication' date=' I would think.[/quote']

 

He said: "(so you can re-create it over and over, if it gets killed)."

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

I don't know what's happened with the character in the last decade or two, but I recall one of his duplicates was killed by Proteus and it wasn't pleasant for him. I didn't get the idea he treated his dupes as expendable.

 

I always figured Multiple Man just had many doublings of possible Duplicates. He sure could create a lot of them.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

If inbreeding causes some funky biology I don't EVEN want to know what sex with the alternate version opposite sex version of yourself will cause.

 

I mean aside from the return of the Comics Code Authority.

 

Covered by the SF book, "The Man Who Folded Himself", by David Gerrold.

[Zed-F]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Some classic 'duplicates as throwaways' tricks:

- Flood the room with duplicates so you don't know which one is the original

- Create a duplicate to jump in front of an attack and take the hit for you

- Clear a scene of bystanders really quickly

- Take on armies of agents by yourself

- and so forth.

 

Some of those tricks can be mimicked by powers other than duplication/summon, others cannot. At some point you will need to have the duplication or summon in order to have the full suite of options you'd 'realistically' have.

 

Mechanically speaking, it gets REALLY expensive and unwieldly to have multiple-man-like duplication using Duplication as the power base. Not only do you have to pay for the extra multiples, but you also have to pay to be able to pop a significant number of them out at once. Normally you can only summon one duplicate per half-phase action. The GM may allow you to increase that for an advantage, but to summon a lot of duplicates at once you'll need to buy many increments of that advantage. Then you also have to worry about how recombination works when you have an army of duplicates out there, some getting hurt, some getting killed, etc...

 

Much better to approach it as a Summon Slavishly Loyal, mechanically speaking. You pay once for the number of 'duplicates' you can summon at the appropriate point level. You can summon as many as you want, as often as you want. You don't need to worry about recombination. You don't need to worry about what happens when one gets killed. And if you as the GM want to shut the duplication down, you mainly just have to figure out a way to shut down the original character, as the summonables usually won't themselves have summon.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Multiple Man can use his power to do more than duplicate himself? What does he do' date=' create a duplicate in the same space as another person?[/quote']

well, I know he did it once, by accident--shark like mutant tried to eat him, pop!, new dupe blows off its head.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Covered by the SF book' date=' "The Man Who Folded Himself", by David Gerrold.[/quote']

The great part about duplication is that "go **** yourself" becomes an actionable imperative.

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Mechanically speaking' date=' it gets REALLY expensive and unwieldly to have multiple-man-like duplication using Duplication as the power base. Not only do you have to pay for the extra multiples, but you also have to pay to be able to pop a significant number of them out at once.[/quote']

I disagree. Having tons of multiples isn't too expensive when you consider it's MM's main schtick. And as far as I know, MM could only make one dupe at a time. Don't forget that his dupes all have Duplication, too, so he can create a lot of copies in a short amount of time.

 

Then you also have to worry about how recombination works when you have an army of duplicates out there, some getting hurt, some getting killed, etc...

I don't recall how MM recombines, but otherwise these are standard Duplication issues. A few dupes getting killed isn't a problem, mechanically speaking, if you can make hundreds and each dupe can make hundreds.

 

Much better to approach it as a Summon Slavishly Loyal, mechanically speaking.

I confess, I'm very much against this seemingly widespread use of Summon as a replacement for other powers. Need a duplicate? Duplication is too much trouble - just Summon one! Need a missile? Don't buy an RKA, just Summon one! I'm not advocating complexity for its own sake, but it seems to be getting out of hand. People seem to travel far afield to justify using Summon.

 

Bottom line: If Duplication causes so many headaches that people are "forced" to use Summon for something as definitive as Multiple Man, then Duplication needs to be fixed. Or at the very least, the explicit 5ER rule against using Summon as a replacement for other powers needs to be removed.

 

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

well' date=' I know he did it once, by accident--shark like mutant tried to eat him, pop!, new dupe blows off its head.[/quote']

Ouch! How very "Iron Age."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

I disagree. Having tons of multiples isn't too expensive when you consider it's MM's main schtick. And as far as I know' date=' MM could only make one dupe at a time. Don't forget that his dupes all have Duplication, too, so he can create a lot of copies in a short amount of time.

 

Not one per half phase, however. There's an X-Factor issue where they need to get someone through the line of mooks right now, and MM looks at Quicksilver and says "Don't ask questions - just hit me - as fast and as hard as you can". The result is a line of duplicates pushing up to whatever they needed to get to.

 

MM's duplication is caused by physical impact.

 

I confess' date=' I'm very much against this seemingly widespread use of Summon as a replacement for other powers. Need a duplicate? Duplication is too much trouble - just Summon one! Need a missile? Don't buy an RKA, just Summon one! I'm not advocating complexity for its own sake, but it seems to be getting out of hand. People seem to travel far afield to justify using Summon.[/quote']

 

Let's remember that Duplication first appeared in Champions III (a supplement for the third edition). Summon first appeared in Fantasy Hero, published the same time as third edition. Until Fourth, there was no Hero product where both Summon and Duplication were included.

 

It doesn't seem wholly unreasonable to suggest that, with both powers, Duplication ought properly to be a variant of Summon, rather than a power unto itself. This would be less kludgy than the current Instant Change and Regeneration powers.

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon as Duplication

 

Not one per half phase' date=' however. There's an X-Factor issue where they need to get someone through the line of mooks right now, and MM looks at Quicksilver and says "Don't ask questions - just hit me - as fast and as hard as you can". The result is a line of duplicates pushing up to whatever they needed to get to.[/quote']

Heh, sounds like the writer was powergaming.

 

MM's duplication is caused by physical impact.

I was pondering how to do that. Some form of Trigger, maybe. Not unlike my Exploding Duplicates issue, but hairier.

 

It doesn't seem wholly unreasonable to suggest that, with both powers, Duplication ought properly to be a variant of Summon, rather than a power unto itself. This would be less kludgy than the current Instant Change and Regeneration powers.

I'd be okay with merging Duplication and Summon, if they wanted to go that route. Maybe it would address the apparently untenable problems that people have with Duplication. I mean, if you can't make Multiple Man using Duplication, what's the point of even having Duplication?

 

It still doesn't address the issue of using Summon as a substitute for half the powers in the book, though (and Transform or X-Dim Movement for the other half). But that's another rant.