The “Unofficial� Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

[Susano]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

"You bastard, you hacked my eyes!"

 

(There have been two GiTS TV series as well, which is where that quote is from.)

 

Yeah... some of the sample powers were influenced by watching some of GITS: SAC Eps 1-8

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

LOL, I literally just finished that series. That writer sure is a philosophical nut eh?

 

I liked the film Scanners more as a concept than as a film.

 

More later

 

QM

[Peregrine]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Mental Duplication - Two (or more) minds in one body, able to perform two (or more) simultaneous mental actions.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Mental Duplication - Two (or more) minds in one body' date=' able to perform two (or more) simultaneous mental actions.[/quote']

Hmmm... Kinda reminds me of Mind Titan from Champions Universe and Antibody from DP7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DP7_(comics)

 

I would really like to see variations on Possession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A couple of other things (I'm going to hit these just one or two at a time).

 

1. This would be a good time to bring back the Spirit rules.

 

2. Let the "Increased Differentiation" on STR, as shown in TUB, be applicable to Mental Powers. (I'm hoping for the same thing to Energy Blast in TUEP.)

 

3. No more than a half-page worth of stuff like electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, and so forth -- it deserves a mention, but mostly belongs in TUEP.

 

4. Lots of stuff on psychology, especially abnormal psychology as it relates to Psychological Limitations. Some of this can be brought in from DC, and probably can be given its own chapter.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A couple of other things (I'm going to hit these just one or two at a time).

 

1. This would be a good time to bring back the Spirit rules.

 

2. Let the "Increased Differentiation" on STR, as shown in TUB, be applicable to Mental Powers. (I'm hoping for the same thing to Energy Blast in TUEP.)

 

3. No more than a half-page worth of stuff like electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, and so forth -- it deserves a mention, but mostly belongs in TUEP.

 

4. Lots of stuff on psychology, especially abnormal psychology as it relates to Psychological Limitations. Some of this can be brought in from DC, and probably can be given its own chapter.

 

re 1. um, no thanks?

[Susano]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

LOL' date=' I literally just finished that series. That writer sure is a philosophical nut eh?[/quote']

 

Which series? GITS?

 

If so, Shirow is more than a nut....

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

re 1. um' date=' no thanks?[/quote']

What is your objection? I for one would like the disembodied spirit stuff.

 

Please explain?

 

QM

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

What is your objection? I for one would like the disembodied spirit stuff.

 

Please explain?

 

QM

well, it's pretty clunky, for one thing. for another, I don't remember those rules having a terribly large or devoted support base.

plus we have the issue of introducing a major new mechanic into HERO, outside of FReD.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Ok that makes sense. It would make a great component to Horror Hero though.

 

Don't you think?

 

QM

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Ok that makes sense. It would make a great component to Horror Hero though.

 

Don't you think?

 

QM

I'd prefer any 5th ed. version of "spirit" rules to adapt the existing mechanics to model this, rather than introduce new and potentially unbalancing mechanics into the system. Desol, mental powers and adjustment powers with suitable modifiers would work quite well to model ghosts and whatnot, imo.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The “Unofficial” Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

I'd prefer any 5th ed. version of "spirit" rules to adapt the existing mechanics to model this' date=' rather than introduce new and potentially unbalancing mechanics into the system. Desol, mental powers and adjustment powers with suitable modifiers would work quite well to model ghosts and whatnot, imo.[/quote']I tend to agree -- this is definitely the more "comfortable" way to go.

 

OTOH the introduction of a Spirit as an optional "new" entity type, otherwise utilizing or directly adapting existing mechanics, might be welcome as well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A more concrete definition of what the different levels of Mind Control mean:

 

Inclined to do anyway

Wouldn't mind doing

Normally opposed

Violently opposed

 

These have always seemed like to great a jump to me. It sounds like "inclined to do anyway" is completely useless.

 

"Ha! I have successfully controlled my opponent into continuing to attack me!"

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A more concrete definition of what the different levels of Mind Control mean:

 

Inclined to do anyway

Wouldn't mind doing

Normally opposed

Violently opposed

 

These have always seemed like to great a jump to me. It sounds like "inclined to do anyway" is completely useless.

 

"Ha! I have successfully controlled my opponent into continuing to attack me!"

well, "attack your arch nemesis instead of me" would fall into that category. one could even set up a mismatch in this fashion.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

well' date=' "attack your arch nemesis instead of me" would fall into that category. one could even set up a mismatch in this fashion.[/quote']

But if he was going to do that anyway, what have you gained?

 

Also, I'd like to see a discussion of realistic hypnosis, in game-mechanical terms.

 

Tips on getting players to roleplay the effects of whatever mental powers they're affected by, even when they don't want to be so affected.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

But if he was going to do that anyway, what have you gained?

 

Also, I'd like to see a discussion of realistic hypnosis, in game-mechanical terms.

 

Tips on getting players to roleplay the effects of whatever mental powers they're affected by, even when they don't want to be so affected.

well, suppose his team leader told him to take out the mentalist first.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A more concrete definition of what the different levels of Mind Control mean:

 

Inclined to do anyway

Wouldn't mind doing

Normally opposed

Violently opposed

 

These have always seemed like to great a jump to me. It sounds like "inclined to do anyway" is completely useless.

 

"Ha! I have successfully controlled my opponent into continuing to attack me!"

 

Well, 'inclined' and 'was going to' are two different things. Setting off a Berserk they made the roll for, for example, or enforcing a Psych Lim they made the roll to resist, I suppose.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

A couple of other things (I'm going to hit these just one or two at a time).

 

1. This would be a good time to bring back the Spirit rules.

At the time, the Spirit Rules were awesome, but also at the time, I was a noob. Rereading them makes me gag. All they are is heavily modified Powers that have been given new names and had their mechanics tweeked a bit. They are very much like Talents now actually, but I can't the ability to utterly destroy a target's soul as being just a simple Talent.

 

The core problem with the Spirt Rules is they assumed certain aspects of the setting would apply in all settings. In every genre, there is a subgenre (if not the entire genre) where the Spirit Rules could never apply because "spirits" just don't work that way.

 

2. Let the "Increased Differentiation" on STR, as shown in TUB, be applicable to Mental Powers. (I'm hoping for the same thing to Energy Blast in TUEP.)

Abso-friggin-lutely! Every incremental Power should be worked this way. EB, PRE, Flash, Entangle, etc...

 

3. No more than a half-page worth of stuff like electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, and so forth -- it deserves a mention, but mostly belongs in TUEP.

I would disagree, but not by much. Classic "mental powers" should not be shuffled off just because there's gonna be an energy projector book. If they are mental powers, they should have a significent place in the mental powers book. However, what I don't want is endless example builds. We do have a book for those, and it's the Ultimate Superpowers Database (I & II). What I'd like to see specifically is guidelines on how to Modify non Mental Powers so that they act like Mental Powers. Variations on the BOECV Advantage for example.

 

4. Lots of stuff on psychology, especially abnormal psychology as it relates to Psychological Limitations. Some of this can be brought in from DC, and probably can be given its own chapter.

That sounds pretty spiffy. While I can't see any significent section of the book devoted to the subject, at least a cursory explination of how the mind is perceived to work (in the real world at least) and how powers like Telepathy and Mental Illusions interact with it could be useful.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

These have always seemed like to great a jump to me. It sounds like "inclined to do anyway" is completely useless.

 

I agree. It would seem to me that you don't need Mind Control to get someone to do what they are already inclined to do. At best you just say "hey, dude with the Total psych limit of Honorable! Accept my challenge to your honor!" and at worst you might need to make a Persuasion roll.

 

I actually had a character once fail to Control a target with the Psych Lim. Loves Combat and a Berserk when Angry to fight him instead of running away. I'd think that regardless of the roll, it would have turned him around instantly and forced his leader to take some measure to insure he fled with the rest of them. But no... I rolled crappy.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

One thing I'd definately like to see is how Mental Powers are perceived from the victim's point of view. It's all very vague now. If a character with Mental Awareness is attacked with Telepathy, won't they know they are being attacked with a Mental Power regardless of if it hits/is successful or not? So what happends with such an attack is successful? Surely they don't forget they were attacked until they make the Breakout Roll. What can such a character do in this situation? What, exactly, are they aware of?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

One thing I'd definately like to see is how Mental Powers are perceived from the victim's point of view. It's all very vague now. If a character with Mental Awareness is attacked with Telepathy' date=' won't they know they are being attacked with a Mental Power regardless of if it hits/is successful or not? So what happends with such an attack [i']is[/i] successful? Surely they don't forget they were attacked until they make the Breakout Roll. What can such a character do in this situation? What, exactly, are they aware of?

Yes, yes, yes, and Oh Yeah! Thank you Thank you. HEH! STEVE definitely gotta cover this one.

 

BTW You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dust Raven again.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To S

 

I agree. It would seem to me that you don't need Mind Control to get someone to do what they are already inclined to do. At best you just say "hey' date=' dude with the Total psych limit of Honorable! Accept my challenge to your honor!" and at worst you might need to make a Persuasion roll.[/quote']

I would have to say that it depends on the genre and the situation. Just because someone is "inclined" to do something does not mean that they will act on that impulse on their own. Social, financial and legal restrictions may make it a bad idea to act on such an inclination (i.e. allow an EGO roll to resist). The more structured and/or disciplined the society and/or the target, the easier it will be to resist. However, the stronger the inclination, the easier it is for a mentalist to nudge the target toward an attitude of, "to h*ll with the consequences, you're going down!"

 

This is why I agree that those levels should be further explored and explained.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

well' date=' "attack your arch nemesis instead of me" would fall into that category. one could even set up a mismatch in this fashion.[/quote']

Is he "inclined" to ignore good combat tactics?

well' date=' suppose his team leader told him to take out the mentalist first.[/quote']

Is he "inclined" to disobey his team leader?

 

I'm not trying to argue with you. I can interpret the rules as well as you can, and I think I've got a pretty good handle on how to adjudicate the MC levels. All I'm asking for is increased clarity in the rules - a more concrete definition of what those levels actually mean, rather than just going by what any particular GM decides they mean at a given moment. (Can you tell I've been screwed over by GMs before on this? )

 

Oh, and while I've got your attention, I also came up with a couple of house rule Advantages for Mental Powers. As long as we're talking about "unofficial" ideas, I might as well post them:

 

Invisible to Non-Mentally Aware Targets - +1/4 A "non-mentalist" (anyone who cannot perceive mental powers) is not aware of the use of mental powers on himself. This conforms to the source material. Just about everyone whose mind is read, can't tell that their mind is being read, unless they also have Mental Powers. This doesn't mean the target can't use his common sense to figure out that his mind was controlled, or that something he sees must be an illusion, etc.

 

Mental Power with "Lock-on Feedback" (I've been trying to think of a better name for this. Suggestions welcome.) +1/2 This advantage means that the mentalist gets some feedback as he uses the power; he gets a feel of how good a "lock" he got on his target before he manipulates the target's mind. A mental power with this advantage can be used without stating a specific command or effect in advance. Upon scoring a hit, the user simply rolls the effect dice and compares the total to the target's EGO, and only then decides what effect he wants. GM's need to be careful with this one. Some suggestions are:

1) The GM should roll the effect dice behind the screen and compare them to the target's EGO (after subtracting defences), and not give the player any information other than, "You achieved EGO+20" or "You failed to exceed the target's EGO," or whatever. This way the target's EGO, Mental Defense, Vulnerabilities, etc., are kept secret from the player.

2) Especially in the case of Mind Control, but quite possibly for all Mental Powers, the GM could require a general declaration of the intent of the use of the power, before the dice are rolled. For example, the player might say, "I want to increase the target's friendliness toward me." Then the dice are rolled. If only the base EGO level is achieved, the result is that the target becomes slightly less hostile, and might ignore the player, but won't become amicable or helpful. If EGO+10 is achieved, the target might behave civilly and help the player, if compensated. At EGO+20, the target will be friendly, and may offer help without prompting. At EGO+30, the target might treat the player as a life-long friend. But the player could not change his mind after the effect dice are rolled and decide to make the target run away in fear instead. Typical general descriptions for Mind Control would be: increase friendliness, cause fear reaction, increase/decrease morale, calm down, seduce, alter moral perception, etc.

I strongly recommend both of the above suggestions for the Feedback advantage.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Speaking of house rules, one I've been using since 5th Edition rolled off the press is an Adder called Unobtrusive (+15 points). This does almost exactly what PhilFleischmann's Advantage does above, but is based off of the existing mechanic of getting an additional +20 on the effect roll so the target is completely unware of the Mental Power. The cost is based on +7d6 of effect with a -1 1/4 Limitation "Only To Get +20 Effect" using Standard Effect. Granted, the actual cost of it is 16, but everything else in the game is in 5 point increments.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The “Unofficial†Ultimate Mentalist Project (Fan Version “What Do *You* Want To See?"

 

Speaking of house rules' date=' one I've been using since 5th Edition rolled off the press is an Adder called Unobtrusive (+15 points). This does almost exactly what PhilFleischmann's Advantage does above, but is based off of the existing mechanic of getting an additional +20 on the effect roll so the target is completely unware of the Mental Power. The cost is based on +7d6 of effect with a -1 1/4 Limitation "Only To Get +20 Effect" using Standard Effect. Granted, the actual cost of it is 16, but everything else in the game is in 5 point increments.[/quote']

I think "telepathic" should similarly be an adder, not an advantage--probably +10 points to transmit commands telepathically. So, telepathic, inobtrusive mind control costs an extra 25 points. In a 350 point game with an 80 AP limit, one could have 11d6 of inobtrusive, TP mind control--enough to be effective with commands at the +20 level, but hard to get effects at the +30 or +40 level without haymakering or pushing.