Susano Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Sarcastic captions aside, the link shows photos of Liberian "militia" engaged in street combat. I thought people might find the images interesting, from a "if I ever send the PCs to the 3rd world" standpoint. http://www.funmansion.com/html/Gangsta-Hip-Hop-Urban-Combat.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Oi. *shakes head sadly* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted March 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Oi. *shakes head sadly* Yeah... I figure with shooting stances like that, everyone is big on emptying the magazine but not actually hitting anyone. The surreal part is the spectators in the background. Most seem to be just standing there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Yeah... I figure with shooting stances like that, everyone is big on emptying the magazine but not actually hitting anyone. The surreal part is the spectators in the background. Most seem to be just standing there. I am no longer suprised by the average persons somewhat clueless responce to danger. About a month and a half ago I was visiting a friends house when a car got firebombed ahalf block down the street. While we were trying to figure out if anyone was in the car, and how heroic we should be concerning any sort of rescue attempts, the ammo that was in the car starting cooking off. Granted, we both kinda expected something of the sort, but even so... We both executed classic Dive for Cover manuvers, while the other 20-odd people gathered in the general vicinity just kinda looked at us like we were crazy. Then the REST of the ammo went off. Then, 20 seconds or so later, the gas tank blew. Thankfully, no one was hurt, but I'm amazed that even in the ghetto folk don't know to get their tails under hard cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Yeah... I figure with shooting stances like that, everyone is big on emptying the magazine but not actually hitting anyone. The surreal part is the spectators in the background. Most seem to be just standing there. every time I see those Pictures, I get the impression one squad of marines with a corpsman and a hmmvw full of ammo could have ended the fighting permanently. Okay, realistically, maybe a company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Never underestimate the incompetency of stupid people with guns, regardless of nationality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... We need to put some Stormtrooper Armor on these guys and throw them against the Ewoks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... every time I see those Pictures, I get the impression one squad of marines with a corpsman and a hmmvw full of ammo could have ended the fighting permanently. Okay, realistically, maybe a company. Which is what the commanders in Somalia thought. These guys are crap but they're really cheap and there's lots of them - and they are suicidally brave: heavy casualties don't really faze them that much. Remember, in Mogadishu guys exactly like this took on a company of Rangers (who also got support from delta force, SEALs and the 10th Mountain) and would have wiped them out if task force David hadn't cut them a way out. And task force David: two US rifle companies, two Malaysian mechanized companies, a composite platoon from TF Ranger and one Pakistani tank platoon - with air support, was only able to get in, get the guys out and then beat a retreat. They're easy to mock, but also easy to underestimate. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... 1) A lot of these guys will be young, almost all of them uneducated. They care about appearing tough as much as anything else. That much is clear from the pictures, and from studies of armed gangs in general. 2) Intimidating your opponent is almost as useful (and sometimes more effective) than killing them. Doesn't matter if you know what you're doing, if you're facing people who know only as much as you do, and you LOOK like you know what you're doing, it's scary. 3) Some of these pics may be staged. Might explain some of the bystanders with no reaction. Otherwise, it could be evidence that gun battles are about as common as jaywalking, and they're just used to 'em (and are aware that hardly anyone gets shot). That, and none of the guys seem to actually be firing. I'm not sure how much muzzle blast would be visible in daytime, but some of those grips are NOT suited to withstanding recoil. 4) Yeah, they're easy targets for mocking. Oh right, black with guns equals hip-hop, definitely. Because all black people are the same, listen to the same music, and are members of the same violent culture. (The author of the captions did NOT impress me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Which is what the commanders in Somalia thought. Not quite. The commanders on Somalia wanted A-130 gunships and armor (Bradleys and tanks), but the Pentagon/Clinton Administration didn't want to commit such numbers. They did have Blackhawks and Little Birds, which helped to an extent. These guys are crap but they're really cheap and there's lots of them - and they are suicidally brave: heavy casualties don't really faze them that much. In Black Hawk Down (which I just finished reading for a second time), mention is made of the militia getting high on khat, an chewable opiate. So on top of being "suicidally brave," many of the fighters were also stoned. Remember, in Mogadishu guys exactly like this took on a company of Rangers (who also got support from delta force, SEALs and the 10th Mountain) and would have wiped them out if task force David hadn't cut them a way out. And task force David: two US rifle companies, two Malaysian mechanized companies, a composite platoon from TF Ranger and one Pakistani tank platoon - with air support, was only able to get in, get the guys out and then beat a retreat. They're easy to mock, but also easy to underestimate. The 10th Mountain wasn't there at the start. There were roughly 180 people initially, the Rangers, Delta Force, 4 SEALs, 8 Blackhawks, 6-8 Little Birds, and a train of HUMVEEs with .50 cals, and several trucks. At the worst of the fighting, there were roughly 90-110 US military going up against the entire city (for all intents and purposes). They took 18 dead and something like 75 wounded. They killed somewhere between 500-1000 Somalians (air support helped). What made things so bad was the loss of a Blackhawk (followed by a second one) -- this blew the initiative and delayed the pull-out. Also, the US went in by day -- not a big deal, they'd done it before, but it took away the huge advantage the US had in nightvision gear. They op was expected to last only 1 hour, not 18 hours. Other issues made things bad for the US op. Lack of decent communications -- not that people couldn't communicate, but too much communication. The fact that the AK-47s most Somalia people had fired a heavy 7.62 round, which would do a number on anyone hit. The tightness of the streets didn't help -- as roadblocks were easy to build, and the lack or armor made it hard to push through them. The US weapons fired nice high-velocity 5.56 rounds, which would punch right through a target and not drop them (this was a repeated issue). Oh, and at least one death was the result of a soldier pulling the heavy plates from his armor, in an effort to save weight. Little things, but it all added up to frustration. As a side note, enemy fire was so intense that not only did two Blackhawks get shot down (RPGs were nasty), but two (or four... I forget), were hit hard and had to return to the air base (where one basically crashed upon landing). Admittedly, if you really look at it, the firefight was a win for the US. I mean 180 versus 10,000, with 18 dead on one side and 1,000 dead on the other? But, in some ways, inter-service rivalries, lack of proper equipment, and a certain degree of arrogance on the part of the US, contributed to the issue. Getting back to the pictures and Mark's comments, it can also be pointed out that if there are 100 of you, and thousands of them, all those bullets they are firing, no matter how poorly aimed, have to go somewhere. And the Somalians were often big on "point and empty the magazine". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... 1) A lot of these guys will be young, almost all of them uneducated. They care about appearing tough as much as anything else. That much is clear from the pictures, and from studies of armed gangs in general. 2) Intimidating your opponent is almost as useful (and sometimes more effective) than killing them. Doesn't matter if you know what you're doing, if you're facing people who know only as much as you do, and you LOOK like you know what you're doing, it's scary. 3) Some of these pics may be staged. Might explain some of the bystanders with no reaction. Otherwise, it could be evidence that gun battles are about as common as jaywalking, and they're just used to 'em (and are aware that hardly anyone gets shot). That, and none of the guys seem to actually be firing. I'm not sure how much muzzle blast would be visible in daytime, but some of those grips are NOT suited to withstanding recoil. 4) Yeah, they're easy targets for mocking. Oh right, black with guns equals hip-hop, definitely. Because all black people are the same, listen to the same music, and are members of the same violent culture. (The author of the captions did NOT impress me.) Yeah... the captions were annoying. I've seen pictures of such fighters before, and this sort of bizarre stances and aggressive posturing do seem to be common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... In Black Hawk Down (which I just finished reading for a second time)' date=' mention is made of the militia getting high on [i']khat[/i], an chewable opiate. So on top of being "suicidally brave," many of the fighters were also stoned. Sure - except that chat doesn't make you brave or funky, or anything: the effect is more like drinking 5 cups of coffee. It's much more to do with a different mindset. I told you about the riots last year in Addis. Chat's available there (you can buy it legally at Mercato, the big outdoor market) But it's not that widely used - and there was exactly the same sort of posturing by totally unstoned people in the face of automatic weapons. When the specials opened up the protestors didn't run away - they just took cover and returned fire with rocks: against AK47s, and .30 cals in the hands of guys who had just shown they'd shoot to kill. At the worst of the fighting' date=' there were roughly 90-110 US military going up against the entire city (for all intents and purposes). They took 18 dead and something like 75 wounded. They killed somewhere between 500-1000 Somalians (air support helped). [/quote'] Yeah, I know all this (although see a more detailed response below) - but it doesn't alter the fact that several companies - with air and armour support - had a very rough time against what are essentially armed funksters like the guys in the photos. Admittedly' date=' if you really look at it, the firefight was a win for the US. I mean 180 versus 10,000, with 18 dead on one side and 1,000 dead on the other? But, in some ways, inter-service rivalries, lack of proper equipment, and a certain degree of arrogance on the part of the US, contributed to the issue.[/quote'] If you look at it in that light, Vietnam was a win for the US, too. But it wasn't Rangers doing the victory dance in the streets afterwards. Victory belongs to the guys who hold the ground. The "thousand dead" figure is just a guess. The real number will never be known, but 1000 dead is probably not unrealistic (the book estimates maybe 500, the official army estimate is "more than 300"). The somali figure is more than 1000, although most of them were not fighters, but civilians. However, the "takin' on the whole city" aspect of the movie is not accurate. Instead of 10,000 millitia, official estimates are perhaps 1,000-2,000 and US forces actually received some assistance from militias controlled by Adid's rivals. In the movie (and to a lesser extent in the book), the relief forces get minimal screen time (fair enough, it's not about them). But in reality, they started rolling as soon as it was apparent there was a problem, and they were involved in the fighting as soon as they hit the city. A brief chronology is here: http://www.ranger.org/somaliaHistoryUSARA.html So, throw in the relief forces, and you're talking about a battle between a couple of thousand militia and three companies of US soldiers plus support (the official figure is 420 US soldiers) plus another 300+ Malaysian and Pakistani soldiers, backed up with armour and air support. The somalis of course, had the advantage of defending densely built up home terrain. So this is not to downplay the heroism of Bravo Company - they really did hold out against overwhelming force for a protracted period and the relief forces had a hideous job, which they completed. Those guys earned their medals. But the picture often painted in the media - *not* it should be noted, the picture given in the army's own presentations, where I get most of my info - of a tiny US force hopelessly outnumbered by teeming thousands does not seem to be accurate. Instead of "180 versus 10,000" we're looking at around 2000 enemy combatants vs nearly 1000 US and allied troops (I'm including the air support in there, since they are credited with most of the casualties and keeping the Rangers from being over-run before the relief forces got there). The lopsided casualty figures represent the fact that just like in the photos a) the US has the firepower, these guys can't shoot for sheet, and c) concepts like "working cover" are not part of their approach. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... The feather duster is what brings the whole thing together. Classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... That's a +3 feather duster. Don't knock it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squall Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... The problem with underestimated yahoos like that is that they're still pointing guns at you, and their bullets'll fly just as fast as anyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_claw Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... To those suprised by the lack of aiming to kill by third world militias in general they should consider this http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/society/killing.html as a possible reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... I think the article overstates the case a bit and in some cases is plain wrong - what, they had muskets with magazines at Gettysburg? But there is a core of truth there. It was a truism in WW2 that 90% of casualties were caused by 10% of the troops - the guys who would keep their heads up and keep aiming, when the enemy was shooting back. Most guys would keep their head down and fire in the general direction of the enemy. But I'm not sure it's to do with our pure humanity. That may be part of it, but a large part is simply due to the fact that when confronted with something or someone who is trying to kill you, most people a) lose the ability to shoot straight* and tend to prioritise seeking cover over inflicting casualties. Those who don't, are the dangerous ones. Part of what made veteran troops far more deadly was the fact that they were more inclined to go for the kill, though that meant taking a little more exposure: the survivors had simply learned how to minimise that risk. Those two things together, mean that under fire - or even expecting to be under fire - people tend to hang back, or shoot at ranges where they have almost no chance of being hit (or hitting). That's why you can (and do) get firefights in the developing world where two groups of 60 guys can fire automatic weapons at each other for four hours and end up with 2 dead and 4 wounded. Modern militaries know this, which is why they work more on fire response, not getting surprised and team-building than they do on marksmanship - and which is why when they clash with untrained soldiers, the casualty figures are so lopsided: both sides are often equally brave, but modern soldiers are trained to kill, and to do so without taking unnecessary risks. As for the guys from Liberia - c'mon. These guys have little to no schooling, followed by a military training program consisting of bootleg US action films and the information (if they are lucky) that the bullet comes out of the little round hole at this end. Everything else they make up as they go along. cheers, Mark *or even think straight - there's an unintentionally hilarious recording from Vietnam of two US marines under fire - one of them spots the enemy and says "I got them, they're over there" The second says "Where?" and they spend the next two minutes shouting "There!" "Where?" There, right there!" "Where?" "There!" at each other over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... I think the article overstates the case a bit and in some cases is plain wrong - what' date=' they had muskets with magazines at Gettysburg? But there is a core of truth there. It was a truism in WW2 that 90% of casualties were caused by 10% of the troops - the guys who would keep their heads up and keep aiming, when the enemy was shooting back. Most guys would keep their head down and fire in the general direction of the enemy.[/quote'] According to Black Hawk Down, the US troops saw two types of Somalia militia. Guys who poked the gun around the corner and emptied it in your general direction (and then ran), and the guys who set, aimed, waited, and then fired. Guess who they felt was the bigger threat.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJackBrass Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... The allegedly amusing captions are almost as distressing as the photos. I just found myself shaking my head for a few minutes... then suddenly thinking: "Do these guys get full clips free with their breakfast cereal?" It's probably more dangerous to be in a nearby building than to actually be standing in the intended line of fire under these circumstances. Terribly, terribly saddening stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Yes, the pictures were funny but the caption writer needs to be To those suprised by the lack of aiming to kill by third world militias in general they should consider this http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/society/killing.html as a possible reason. Markdoc already hit the high points (and I owe you rep again!), but I wanted to make one additional comment. The second-to-last paragraph mentions the changes in marksmanship training instituted after WWII as a result of SLA Marshall's study, but IMO misreprents them. The point wasn't that shooting at human-shaped targets somehow makes it psychologically easier to shoot a real person. The point is that the old "bulleye" ranges completely ignored the target acquitision part of combat shooting -- you've got all the time you need to get the perfect sight picture, and you don't shoot until you've got a perfect target. Pop-up ranges teach you to quickly pick up your target, aim fast, and shoot before the target disappears, even if you don't have a "perfect shot." Ironically, the figures quoted by the author about higher firing rates in Korea and especially Vietnam are taken by some as evidence that the US military had gone too far in the opposite direction, stressing throwing lots of lead downrange without necessarily aiming. Among other things, that sort of firing greatly increases your logistical burden, particularly for light infantry. Back when I was in uniform, we had a lot of conversations about how to balance the two - there's not an easy answer. Or at least, we never found one. BTW, if anyone's interested both of the books the author references -- Marshall's Men Against Fire and Grossmna's On Killing -- really are Must Reads for the subject: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0806132809/sr=8-1/qid=1143126096/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3232499-3791315?%5Fencoding=UTF8 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316330116/sr=8-2/qid=1143126096/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-3232499-3791315?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... I note that the poll on "what would you kill for" only allows the user to select one response. It doesn't recognize, for instance, that a person might be willing to kill to protect themselves and to protect their family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... For that matter, why is being able to kill when it becomes necessary considered a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... Which is what the commanders in Somalia thought. These guys are crap but they're really cheap and there's lots of them - and they are suicidally brave: heavy casualties don't really faze them that much. Remember, in Mogadishu guys exactly like this took on a company of Rangers (who also got support from delta force, SEALs and the 10th Mountain) and would have wiped them out if task force David hadn't cut them a way out. And task force David: two US rifle companies, two Malaysian mechanized companies, a composite platoon from TF Ranger and one Pakistani tank platoon - with air support, was only able to get in, get the guys out and then beat a retreat. They're easy to mock, but also easy to underestimate. cheers, Mark I won't start in on the Mogadishu situation, yeah, several thousand of them are very dangerous. artillery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... According to several people I have conversed with, MANY of Marshal's results were questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: How not to fire your weapon in Dark Champions... According to several people I have conversed with' date=' MANY of Marshal's results were questionable.[/quote'] I've heard people say that too, but I've yet to find anyone who could actually articulate to me what they thought was wrong with his methods, as opposed to just "I don't like his conclusions." :shrug: But hey, maybe I'm wrong - if you have specifics, I'd love to hear `em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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