Holy Killer Angels

[Michael Hopcroft]

A weird idea that just occured to me: in a fantasy setting where there is true evil running around, even the priesthoods of niminally good deities would have reasons to want the prietshoods of evil cults "disposed of".

 

So it occured to me that such a faith might set up an order og "holy assassins", people who kill the God's enemies at His command, and spend much of the rest of their time in atonmenet for the burden of personal sin their holy deeds has caused them.

 

In fact, one of the requrements for membership in the order is that you actually have a consicence and that you do not enjoy killing. You will slay only the deity's enemies and nobody else, and live by a code of austere self-denial.

 

In return for the burden you have accepted, you gain divine abilities that are unqiely suited to carrying out your tasks. You lose these abilitiies if you turn against the deity, refuse the orders of the Priesthood, or take an innocent life.

[Curufea]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Alternatively, you can just make killing evil people not a sin for that religion - so they need not atone.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

I recommend Grandia II. It has an interesting take on the whole "doing good while being techincally evil"

[Vondy]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Why not just have the Priesthood give them a dispensation on 'sanctioned' killings. Or have it not be a sin to kill those responsible for spreading evil in society. Perhaps the Priesthood holds a trial in the absence of the accused and sentences them to death. As a result, the assassin is really the executioner. He's just carrying out the court's decree.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

I dunno, the original idea sounds very reminiscent of the extreme mental gymnastics employed by some religions to justify certain actions. Or even the D&D cleric paactice (loosely based on a medieval concept) of not being allowed to use bladed weapons. You see, it's evil to spill blood, but it's a loophole to just beat them to a pulpy mess.

 

Keith "Always wondered why Evil Clerics couldn't use bladed weapons" Curtis

[Intrope]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Actually, Holy Slayers is basically the backstory (what there is of it) for the Diablo 2 Assassins. It's a fairly interesting concept, certainly.

 

On Cleric Weapons: The good ones use blunts to avoid bloodshed, the evil ones use blunts 'cause it hurts more and the neutrals just smoke theirs

[KA.]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

This is the premise of a series of books called The Inquisitor by Simon Quinn (pen name).

 

It is sort of a cut-rate Mack Bolan type series, but the premise is that the main character is an assassin for the Vatican, and indeed spends much of his time doing pennance for the people he kills.

 

Not really a bad read if you can find them cheap.

 

KA.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

A weird idea that just occured to me: in a fantasy setting where there is true evil running around' date=' even the priesthoods of niminally good deities would have reasons to want the prietshoods of evil cults "disposed of"..[/quote']

Under this principle operated the haschschihn of the Old man from the Mountain.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili

 

In Midgard the "white" Assassins orders operate under the same principle

[Markdoc]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

A weird idea that just occured to me: in a fantasy setting where there is true evil running around, even the priesthoods of niminally good deities would have reasons to want the prietshoods of evil cults "disposed of".

 

So it occured to me that such a faith might set up an order og "holy assassins", people who kill the God's enemies at His command

 

 

Isn't this what player characters do?

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Alternatively' date=' you can just make killing evil people not a sin for that religion - so they need not atone.[/quote']

 

See, that's the start of the slippery slope.

 

For a religion who believes that it is wrong to kill then it is wrong to kill.

 

Practical reasons in the real world might mean that the religion needs to have certain entities killed but cannot begin to draw lines of which entity it is OK to kill and thus you have people who are willing to take on the role of Holy Assassin.

 

It makes sense that the assassin would spend all of his/her downtime seeking forgiveness and atonement and it may also make sense that his/her deity would provide the necessary forgiveness. It also means that the religion can continue to say that killing is wrong - even for us - even when it is the evil people-eating orc-horrors on the other side of the mountain.

 

 

Doc

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

See, that's the start of the slippery slope.

 

For a religion who believes that it is wrong to kill then it is wrong to kill.

 

Practical reasons in the real world might mean that the religion needs to have certain entities killed but cannot begin to draw lines of which entity it is OK to kill and thus you have people who are willing to take on the role of Holy Assassin.

Name any religion please who do that, except of buddhism perhaps.

Most religions say it is wrong to murder, but killing in self defense or defense of others are AFAIK accepted by most, if there was no other way, same reason goes for war.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

And there's been no lack of conscience-salving rationales for killing in the name of "defending the faith," "destroying the heretics/infidels," "forced conversion" or "saving their souls." In fact a great deal of blood has been spilled at the instigation of "religious" individuals or organizations which profess to support peace and respect for life. It always seems to be possible to find doctrinary loopholes that allow you to do that to the other guy, particularly when the other guy has something you want.

[Markdoc]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Name any religion please who do that, except of buddhism perhaps.

Most religions say it is wrong to murder, but killing in self defense or defense of others are AFAIK accepted by most, if there was no other way, same reason goes for war.

 

Well, the Jains, for a start, as well as the Buddhist ideal (athough history has given us some pretty bloody-handed buddhist sects,s howing that practice and ideal don't always match up). Christianity, too - soldiers and gladiators were banned from joining the early christian cults: as professional shedders of (human) blood they were not welcome unless they renounced their former trade. We have multiple examples of this.

 

Clemens of Alexandria calls his Christian contemporaries the "followers of peace," and expressly tells us "that the followers of peace used none of the implements of war." Lactantius, another early Christian, says expressly, "It can never be lawful for a righteous man to go to war." About the end of the second century, Celsus, one of the opponents of Christianity, charged the Christians with refusing to bear arms even in case of necessity. Origen, the defender of the Christians, does not think of denying the fact; he admits the refusal, and justifies it, because war was unlawful. Even after Christianity had spread over almost the whole of the known world, Tertullian, in speaking of a part of the Roman armies, including more than one-third of the standing legions of Rome, distinctly informs us that "not a Christian could be found among them." There are many contemporary stories of legionaries who became christian, renounced the use of arms - all that I know of were executed, becoming martyrs. The idea that war and self defence are OK are later additions to christian morality.

 

So there we have 3 faiths at least who believe that killing other people - even evil people, even in self defence, is wrong. It's not too far out to believe that in a fantasy world such beliefs could also exist.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Interesting to know, I thought by christianity more on Anastasius Just war.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Interesting to know' date=' I thought by christianity more on Anastasius Just war.[/quote']

 

 

Not pretending to have as much ready knowledge as Markdoc but it is always easier to remember the bad things people say about all religions than the good examples that were once set.

 

As Markdoc says - it shouldn't be hard to belieev in a fantasy setting where such sects exist especially as they might actually garner some real world actual protection from a beneficent deity rather than the general hands off approach that we witness in our own sadly magic lacking real world.

 

 

 

Doc

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Not pretending to have as much ready knowledge as Markdoc but it is always easier to remember the bad things people say about all religions than the good examples that were once set.

 

As Markdoc says - it shouldn't be hard to belieev in a fantasy setting where such sects exist especially as they might actually garner some real world actual protection from a beneficent deity rather than the general hands off approach that we witness in our own sadly magic lacking real world.

Still in a fantasy setting we almost always have competing deities (or at least beings of deity-like power) working against each other's interests. Why they would use the human world as a battlefield, or would even care about it, depends on the cosmology involved. After all, why would you want to bother exterminating Apollo's earthly followers when you can simply kill Apollo himself and nobody on Earth would know the difference?

[Curufea]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

The longer a religion is practiced, the more likely it is to become violent.

 

Just have your warriors part of a new religion.

[sbarron]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

In fact, one of the requrements for membership in the order is that you actually have a consicence and that you do not enjoy killing. You will slay only the deity's enemies and nobody else, and live by a code of austere self-denial.

 

In return for the burden you have accepted, you gain divine abilities that are unqiely suited to carrying out your tasks. You lose these abilitiies if you turn against the deity, refuse the orders of the Priesthood, or take an innocent life.

Rather than having the divine powers set these assassins apart from the flock, maybe you could have the god mark them in some way. Birthmarks, weird moles, or maybe even flat out various religious stigmata-esque markings. Depending on whether you want the god to actually mark the assassins herself, or if the preisthood just makes a judgment calls on who has this mark and who doesn't, you could use either the very mundane or the truly fantistic.

 

You could work the powers in too, but I like the idea of having a mark fading in and out depending on whether the assassin has fallen from grace and loses the ability to kill or not. That of course assumes this god is actually choosing this character as an assassin for the faith.

 

It could just as easily be religious leaders twisting the meaning of the doctrine in a way to get around the tenents of the religion. This would be more the birthmark route.

 

I also like the idea that the character not be given special abilities. The mark itself gives them the right to kill, which would already be a big step for a truly peaceful religion. Plus, the god will provide the means for them to accomplish his objectives. The characters would have to have faith that the god will provide for them or not, based on his whim. Giving them powers kind of takes the reliance off the faith I think...

 

I'm just rambling my own ideas out now. Cool idea, whatever you decide.

[Curufea]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Actually, it sounds like a medieval version of Dogs of the Vineyard.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

The longer a religion is practiced' date=' the more likely it is to become violent.[/quote']

That's because they are usually attacked by some other religion. They must either take up arms to defend themselves, or be killed off.

[Markdoc]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Interesting to know' date=' I thought by christianity more on Anastasius Just war.[/quote']

 

All the quotes I gave were from the first 2-300 years of christianity.

 

Anastasius was writing nearly 500 years after Christ, by which time christianity had become a state religion and rulers were starting to ask:

"How can I run a state based on peace, love and forgiveness and still compel people to pay their taxes, obey the law and make war on my enemies?"

The correct answer: "It's a miracle!" really didn't appeal that much, so Anastasius made up the idea of "just war" and theologians have been arguing ever since if it makes any sense at all. It was good enough for the emperors, though.

 

As for the original idea, I've never used anything quite like that, but in the current game (indeed, it's a major driving force of the plot) I do have a similar dilemma for my players. There are 2 major religions, one of which is polyetheistic with 12 gods, the other has only one god but he's a sort of diffuse nature god. After a rocky start, they now get along just fine, with most people worshipping one religion or the other and a few people worshipping both. In addition, the religion of the 12 has many, many, many cults, each dedicated to a particular aspect of the god - so the Horned man (the warrior god) is also the smith god, a fire god, a protector and a giver of battle rage, etc. In a culture like this which admits that multiple gods exist and that gods can have multiple natures, there are no laws or cultural taboos about "heresy" or blasphemy. But..... relatively recently (ie: over the last couple of hundred years) new cults have arisen which worship either (depending on your point of view) demons or extremely abberant aspects of the 12 gods. This wouldn't be a big deal, except that a) these cults practice a new and extremely powerful form of sorcery and sorcerors of these cults tend over time to develop disturbing mental illnesses or physical deformations. Like I said, there's never been a real concept of heresy, so none of this is illegal. Nonetheless, the idea is *just now* starting to form and some people have formed a secret group called the Church Militant dedicated to tracking down and eradicating these "heretic sorcerors"

 

The dilemma is that there are no actual laws against heresy, so this comes down to plain ol' murder. Also, there's the question of who gets to decide what is an "aberrant" cult? At the moment, I am keeping things good and simple - most heretic cults flourish in the kingdom of Samadria and the kingdom that the players come from has been at war with Samdria before and might be soon again. So for the players, Samadrian = evil demon worshipping sorceror. But of course once the plot starts rolling, things won't be so simple

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Or they fear people who aren't conforming to their religion, and wish to violently convert non-believers.

For example, the Midianites in the Old Testament of the Bible

Numbers chapter 31-

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

This translation is so bad I can't even begin to explain why the context of the story doesn't fit your interpretation of it. Add on top of that the fact that you quoted select verses and not the entire passage and it becomes pointless.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

All the quotes I gave were from the first 2-300 years of christianity.

 

Anastasius was writing nearly 500 years after Christ, by which time christianity had become a state religion and rulers were starting to ask:

"How can I run a state based on peace, love and forgiveness and still compel people to pay their taxes, obey the law and make war on my enemies?"

I know the picture of these times a bit, and there was no chance that a state of pacifists could´ve survived or longer as its conquerors needed to march through his lands and over his people.

[input.jack]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Asking Von D Man which translation is more "politically correct" is the wrong question.

 

The man's a scholar. When he says a translation is bad he means its -bad-, as in incorrect. The words are not what the original words meant.

 

There are -alot- of bad translations of biblical text. Many of them are found in churches throughout the world.

 

Also, passages are missing from your original quote. Anyone who has ever given a newpaper interview will tell you how easy it is to twist meaning around by leaving out a few words

[Curufea]

Re: Holy Killer Angels

 

Whatever. I'm deleting the posts.