How to end a dystopia...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

I fully agree. Any dystopia's end is going to take major work and the period immediately afterwards is going to be unstable and fraught with danger. A couple of "Truth broadcasts" and demolished buildings and "peace reigns before tea time" does not cut it.

 

It's hard to see how a Cyberpunk dystopia could do anything but degenerate further into anarchy of the realistic sort (as opposed to the "humans are basically nice and will all get along fine without rules" sort)

Dude, I think you just figured out how Post Apocalypse Hero fits into the Metaverse timeline!

 

Seriously, wouldn't a post-cyberpunk dystopia collapse be a great spin on the usual post-A settings?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Dude' date=' I think you just figured out how [b']Post Apocalypse Hero[/b] fits into the Metaverse timeline!

 

Seriously, wouldn't a post-cyberpunk dystopia collapse be a great spin on the usual post-A settings?

I believe this was called Gamma World when TSR published it. So, you are correct, sir.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

I believe this was called Gamma World when TSR published it. So' date=' you are correct, sir.[/quote']

Oh well, so much for my "original" idea. Haven't played Gamma World for a long time; I'd forgotten what kind of Apocalypse it was Post.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Don't get me wrong. It's still a very original thought. It's just that Gamma World had the pre-disaster world at a very advanced level of technology, as opposed to, say, Twilight 2000. Gamma World is actually science fantasy more than anything else. It was almost like playing D&D were magic was replaced by mutation, robotics and super science. Think Thundarr the Barbarian, or Empire of the East by Saberhagen.

[Wolf1066]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

See' date=' this is one of my problems with the metaverse timeline: 4-color Champions stories and dystopian cyberpunk stories just do not exist in the same universes. Each genre makes radically different fundamental assumptions about human nature and the power of the individual. I don’t see such basic “universal†laws changing just because “the magic goes away.†Maybe that’s just me. [/quote']

 

I've been giving some thought to this.

 

I tend to go by the "anything's possible in the human spectrum" - both your 4-colour heroes and your cyberpunks have "goodies" and "baddies" - not everyone in the dystopic world of cyberpunk is scum (well, not in my universes, anyway) as it has evolved from our here and now just as the Heroes are in a alternate "here and now" where some people have fantastic powers.

 

In my cyberpunk campaign there is an NPC character of my own devising - "The Spectre", an unlicensed vigilante hunted by the law and feared by the criminals, whose "super powers" come from the cyberware he has (in his case, a full body conversion). He views himself as a hero and has a (skewed) moral code and rocks around the place trashing some of the nastier specimens of humanity. He is an altruist with a serious Galahad Complex - one extreme of the spectrum. The "super villains" are drug lords, heavily cybered rapists, murderers etc at the other end of the spectrum. (The Spectre does not often go up against the Corps themselves unless he has evidence of serious wrong-doing)

 

I think that whatever your rationale for having heroes (and the villains they must fight) human nature is still the same - infinitely variable with kind and public-spirited people mixed up with greedy, corrupt people. I see no reason a world containing 4-colour heroes and their associated villains should not contain the greedy corrupt corporations that would make the Cyberpunk dystopia (see the "Spiderman 2099" comics from Marvel) likewise I see no reason a Cyberpunk dystopia should not have someone who is public-spirited enough to risk his/herself to "Protect The People" - not all the cops are on the take, not everyone is motivated by money and in the Dark Future dystopia the "good" people are still there and not all of them are hiding in the corner whimpering "please don't hurt me."

 

As you were, no intention to hijack the thread from how to wipe out a dystopia. Nothing to see here, move along...

[Wolf1066]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Seriously' date=' wouldn't a post-cyberpunk dystopia collapse be a great spin on the usual post-A settings?[/quote']

 

Rogue borgs roaming the desolate wastes looking for scrap metal and functioning cyberware - too bad if the cyberware is implanted in you...

 

With the Corps gone, anyone with cyberware is going to fall into the categories of hunter and hunted. Anyone with cybernetics skill is going to be in high demand - worth kidnapping, worth going to war for.

 

It would be a good spin, certainly a change from "The last atomic war ravaged the land and..." What if it were rapacious Corps with strip mines and green-house-gas-producing factories that ravaged the Earth and created the "Apocalypse" - the rendering of the Earth barely habitable. The Corps are then destroyed - in part by the fact they've "eaten themselves out of house and home" (there's nothing left to take) and in part by the angry hordes of street scum, Edgerunners and just plain decent every-day folk who were sick and tired of having to live in the mean streets and survive on SFA while the corporate moguls live in luxury - and the Anarchy of the lawless blasted landscapes and decaying cities is born.

 

Ripe for Luddite cults, cybernetic road warriors, Nomad gangs, crazies, struggling farmers and all the other various denizens of the Post Apocalypse.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

In the end you can have a dark and murky successor to a four colour hero...just by letting villains win. That's how you get after all, the murky mutant hunting and oppressive mutant oligarchy futures of the X-Men, by letting their opponents win. The master Champions Universe timeline only works of course as the "one true" timeline to 3000 when you are looking backwards at it, from the point of view of a Galactic Champions campaign. A fixed past is fine. A fixed future is not so good. I'm actually playing around with writing up two alternate futures, but in truth I don't have enough current Champions resources to do a proper job of it.

[egaroadkill]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

I say the only way to end the dystopia is to, like a bad flu, let it run its course. Let someone treat the occasional symptom but forget the Hollywood ending, it doesn’t happen, well maybe the type were people run about, scream and shout as the pochyplix hits. That is unless you can get the mind control device that covers the known space of humanity making everyone white bread SanAngelo Metroplex joy, joy feelings and such drivel.

About the only way to assist change is to counter the selfish philosophies with something else and allow people to learn and choose, maybe with a little nudging. Oh, and be wary of the dystopia’s auto immune system appearing to knock your heads in when it notices you’re having an effect.

 

I’ve read a few excellent books highlighting space faring dystopias. Ben Bova’s series of books forming the “Grand Tourâ€, Jerry Pournelles CoDo and some of Phillip K Dicks stories make for some very believable dystopias that have reached the stars. Well, then again there’s Firefly too…

 

Anyway, I don’t think technology, loose money or the Wild West automatically lead to breaking the dystopia stranglehold but they can help a lot by removing controls over people. If you can get the (insert cliché despot here) funk ray out of the publics head, you got a chance.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Well the best way to get past a dystopia is to have people rise up to overthrow it...and _fail_ doing just enough damage to scare a large chunk of the powerful. That inspires them to make compromises and reforms before something worse happens. If they dig in their heels and stand fast then you have a Russian or French revolution. If they get used to giving up ground then a social order evolves which will be less brutal.

[Wolf1066]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Well the best way to get past a dystopia is to have people rise up to overthrow it...and _fail_ doing just enough damage to scare a large chunk of the powerful. That inspires them to make compromises and reforms before something worse happens. If they dig in their heels and stand fast then you have a Russian or French revolution. If they get used to giving up ground then a social order evolves which will be less brutal.

I can well imagine that "giving up ground" would not be an option for some and they would dig in their heels anyway, meaning that they would have to be permanently removed - and thus begins the descent into Russian or French Revolution for the others would dig in their heels...

[David Johnston]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

I can well imagine that "giving up ground" would not be an option for some and they would dig in their heels anyway' date=' [/quote']

 

As long as they aren't the absolute monarch, that's not so big a problem.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Well the best way to get past a dystopia is to have people rise up to overthrow it...and _fail_ doing just enough damage to scare a large chunk of the powerful. That inspires them to make compromises and reforms before something worse happens. If they dig in their heels and stand fast then you have a Russian or French revolution. If they get used to giving up ground then a social order evolves which will be less brutal.

Excellent point. After all, it was the scare of the French Revolution that led to the beginnings of labour laws in Britain and elsewhere. "Right then: we'll ditch the mandatory 60-hour work week, pay you above starvation wages, we'll even let you take an hour for lunch. Just please let's not riot, okay?"*

 

 

 

* Not an actual period quote AFAIK.

[Wolf1066]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Excellent point. After all' date=' it was the [u']scare[/u] of the French Revolution that led to the beginnings of labour laws in Britain and elsewhere. "Right then: we'll ditch the mandatory 60-hour work week, pay you above starvation wages, we'll even let you take an hour for lunch. Just please let's not riot, okay?"

So we need a neighbour to get thoroughly trashed by p*ssed-off workers and 'runners to scare the local Corps into improving the working conditions?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

One thing to look at when checking the source material: It almost never actually goes into what happens AFTER the leader/prime minister/evil overlord is removed.

 

In many cases that one person is the charismatic leader that holds the whole shebang together into a single entity.

 

After they go it splits into any number of warring little states - one or more even controlled by the "Good Guys" who removed the evil dictator to begin with.

 

Evil Big Bad just happened to by the lynchpin that enables the total collapse and eventual rebuilding.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

How is it with corruption, decadence and incompetence?

 

The heirs of the predators/makers get lazy, short sighted egoistical and incompetent, some where along the line, the system couldn`t longer have the organisation, ressources and professionalism needed to hold against the pressure.

[Peregrine]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

First, can anyone cite a historical case of the lower classes successfully rising up and overthrowing the powers-that-be? In every case I can think of, it was the educated middle-to-upper class who sought to transfer power to themselves, and used the masses (sometimes) as pawns in their power transfer.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Sure. The French Revolution. The upper and middle class weren't at all in charge of what was going on. While eventually educated and affluent types bobbed to the top again as is inevitable, they weren't leaders or drivers in any meaningful sense of the uprising itself.

[arcady]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

One thing to look at when checking the source material: It almost never actually goes into what happens AFTER the leader/prime minister/evil overlord is removed.

Johnny Zed. That's a n early Cyberpunk novel about overthrowing a corrupt Congress to re-install the virtuous ideal of a President... and it ends with the new President wondering if she had actually managed to change anything at all...

 

 

Reading up on the French Revolution on wikipedia, it seems to have been largely a move by parliamentary wannabes desiring to put a legislature in place with power equal to the King, and not so much a move by the masses until afterwards. In fact, Robespierre, who I've always been told was a populist peasant leader, was actually an Irish descended French Lawyer from a family of lawyers who had met the King at university...

 

 

As for ending Dystopia, I'm not so sure...

 

But I do not think moving into space would do it. In fact the boon to industry might aid it. The French revolutionary period is in many ways an example of a 'populist dystopia' in that it set in place for a short while a 'thought police' system of control.

 

A move into space might end dystopia, but it might also allow for new means to keep labor down, and by extension civil rights down. A global government might be based on globalization notions of advancing trade, and therefore itself become a tool of merely exporting dystopia.

 

I think it would only end by force of arms and the creation of governmental systems designed to check the excess of past eras - much as happened with the American Revolution and the Constitutional system it left in place afterwards.

 

These things seem cyclical, a new means comes about to prevent past injustice, in time it becomes entrenched and a beacon for the virtues it promotes, then it gets complacent and corrupted from within, and eventually it is overthrown by yet another new means to prevent past excess...

 

And now that we've just reached the fall of the Roman Empire...

 

Well, that pattern seems to hold throughout history. But it usually isn't a peasant uprising no more that it is a barbarian invasion - it might get sold that way after the fact, but it is usually something more complex.

[novi]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

It seems to me that part of the issue is defining the conditions of the question. Historical examples have been compared to hypothetical futures, with mixed results. And fictional narratives have been compared with actual reality. I'm not sure one could develop a general solution to the general question of "How to end a dystopia?", but specific solutions could be devised.

 

The original question was how does the CU get from a Cyberpunk Dystopia to the Interstellar Age. The problem is only if you imagine that there has to be an enormous disconnect between the two. This need not be the case. The corps will still be there in the IA, and for that matter they're still there in Galactic Champions. It's just that conditions have changed and it's no longer necessary to keep the dystopian conditions around. The dystopia comes about only because there is a finite ammount of resources and ruthless, greedy people will stoop to any means to get a bigger slice of the pie. It also makes an easy scapegoat for having restictive laws, because of all the crazy poor people. When cheap space travel shows up, there's more for everyone. The corps and the rich will still get their larger shares, but everyone is going to get more, and the poor will see a larger relative improvement, effectively ending the dystopia.

 

Another important point to remember is that we're discussing genres. It's an important part of cyberpunk that the corps are evil and that the characters spend their time amongst the downtrodden, marginalized masses. Space games are about travelling the space lanes and the adventure there. They are in the same universe in the same way that Gotham and Metropolis are in the same universe.

[arcady]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Another important point to remember is that we're discussing genres. It's an important part of cyberpunk that the corps are evil and that the characters spend their time amongst the downtrodden, marginalized masses.

These two themes are actually not present in most Cyberpunk literature.

 

From 'Software' to 'Islands in the Net' to 'Slant' to one of the three stories in 'Moreau Omnibus' to 'Total Recall' (both the movie and the story it was very loosely based on) to 'Future Cops' to 'Ultimate Cyberpunk' to many more examples - those two themes just are not present.

 

Just as often Corporations play no role at all, or are the good guys, and just as often government is the overpowerful entity, and again just as often the protagonist comes from the middle class or even the wealthy and powerful elites.

 

What the genre shares across all of these is a sense of disillusionment in a realization that someting is wrong, and a world where the dreams of the future have come at a cost that is makes them of questionable worth. It is often referred to as a dystopia because at the outset it appears to be a utopia, and often even the protagonist thinks they are living in a utopia until somebody pulls off their rose colored glasses.

 

In fact, in Technogenesis, the protagonist actually had on special glasses which were taken off revealing a whole different world...

 

Sometimes, the protagonist only sees her dystopia fully after she has become part of the 'powers that be', such as in Johnny Zed after the revolution succeeds and the heroine realizes that taking over the USA has not given her the utopia she thought it would.

 

 

It is very popular in gaming communities to assume these things are parts of the genre because the Cyberpunk RPG claimed them as major elements, and Shadowrun and other RPGs copied the Cyberpunk RPG rather than the literature... But this is one of the major reasons why I feel no RPG has as yet managed to do the Cyberpunk genre.

 

Because these two themes are only present in a small part of the literature. Likewise for other 'gamer iconic themes' such as cyberware, the net, and AIs. Those feature in Neuromancer and some of Gibson's other works, but are minority elements in the larger genre, and in fact the popular gamer idea of cyberpsychosis doesn't even seem to have any basis in the genre - but seems to be wholly a fabrication of the Cyberpunk RPG, then copied on to others, to create game balance... Though I might be wrong here... I do not recall it any of the very few Cyberpunks books I know of with Cyberware in them, but it might have been 'under the surface' of Gibson's works. I didn't like him as a writer so I may have missed it.

 

As a major fan of Cyberpunk literature, who's read quite a lot of books in the genre, this 'corps and downtrodden' myth is a big pet peeve of mine. It just isn't there in most of the source.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

A largely popular revolution would be the Russian Revolution.

 

Military and peasants led by a few orators. Working class, that sort of stuff.

[Metaphysician]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

A largely popular revolution would be the Russian Revolution.

 

Military and peasants led by a few orators. Working class, that sort of stuff.

 

Of course, it led to trading one bad government for an even worse government.

 

This being a problem for any kind of violent revolution, against a cyberpunk dystopia or any other. Even assuming the best motives and ideals of the founders and leaders of the revolution ( seldom the case ), you've got a couple dangerous possibilities:

 

1. Followers and members who are less idealistic. They may be in it for the opportunity of power in the new system, or because they like the glamor of rebellion, or because they enjoy battle, or because alot of illicit money flows through the rebellion. Once you win, all of these people become potential liabilities ( which is probably why less ethical revolutions tend to start by killing their supporters ). On the other hand, while the fight is going on, can you afford to turn away supporters? And where do you draw the line?

 

2. Anarchy. Just because you can bring down the old system, doesn't mean you can set up a replacement immediately. . . and a nonfunctioning state is often worse than a bad one, for the general masses.

 

3. Fanatic focus on 'beating the enemy.' So, you've got a whole organization of people who oppose the megacorps so much that they are willing to die to bring them down. You've been so fighting them for a long time ( meaning accumulated grudges and vendettas ).

 

What happens if some or all the megacorps want to stop being the enemy? Maybe you've convinced a bunch of hierarchs that what their doing isn't right, maybe they've decided its more profitable to ditch the evilness, maybe they realized it was stupid to screw over their customer base the whole time. So, you negotiate a deal. . . with "the enemy", who all your troops have lost friends to, and have spent years trying to bring down.

 

If your not careful, you could end up tossed out of your own rebellion movement ( or dead ) for "selling out to the enemy." Because while you might have founded it to stop the injustice, the overall movement's goal has shifted to "kill the megacorp."

 

Or basically, over time, especially time spent bitterly fighting, purposes change, and not just because of the desires of the leaders.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

These two themes are actually not present in most Cyberpunk literature.

 

From 'Software' to 'Islands in the Net' to 'Slant' to one of the three stories in 'Moreau Omnibus' to 'Total Recall' (both the movie and the story it was very loosely based on) to 'Future Cops' to 'Ultimate Cyberpunk' to many more examples - those two themes just are not present.

 

Just as often Corporations play no role at all, or are the good guys, and just as often government is the overpowerful entity, and again just as often the protagonist comes from the middle class or even the wealthy and powerful elites.

 

What the genre shares across all of these is a sense of disillusionment in a realization that someting is wrong, and a world where the dreams of the future have come at a cost that is makes them of questionable worth. It is often referred to as a dystopia because at the outset it appears to be a utopia, and often even the protagonist thinks they are living in a utopia until somebody pulls off their rose colored glasses.

 

In fact, in Technogenesis, the protagonist actually had on special glasses which were taken off revealing a whole different world...

 

Sometimes, the protagonist only sees her dystopia fully after she has become part of the 'powers that be', such as in Johnny Zed after the revolution succeeds and the heroine realizes that taking over the USA has not given her the utopia she thought it would.

 

 

It is very popular in gaming communities to assume these things are parts of the genre because the Cyberpunk RPG claimed them as major elements, and Shadowrun and other RPGs copied the Cyberpunk RPG rather than the literature... But this is one of the major reasons why I feel no RPG has as yet managed to do the Cyberpunk genre.

 

Because these two themes are only present in a small part of the literature. Likewise for other 'gamer iconic themes' such as cyberware, the net, and AIs. Those feature in Neuromancer and some of Gibson's other works, but are minority elements in the larger genre, and in fact the popular gamer idea of cyberpsychosis doesn't even seem to have any basis in the genre - but seems to be wholly a fabrication of the Cyberpunk RPG, then copied on to others, to create game balance... Though I might be wrong here... I do not recall it any of the very few Cyberpunks books I know of with Cyberware in them, but it might have been 'under the surface' of Gibson's works. I didn't like him as a writer so I may have missed it.

 

As a major fan of Cyberpunk literature, who's read quite a lot of books in the genre, this 'corps and downtrodden' myth is a big pet peeve of mine. It just isn't there in most of the source.

 

 

 

This hits the nail on the head IMHO. Specifically the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 RPG's carry the baggage of the late 80's in spades. Japanese where buying up American landmarks etc. It also had a heavy dose of the publishers political views of Ronald Reagan and the Vietnam War tossed in for good measure. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the author on those subject they should not be the basis for ones understanding of the Cyberpunk genre.

[Savinien]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

Two words:

 

Transhuman Space

 

It doesn't necessarily end the dystopia, but brings the question of whether an actual dystopia exists.

[Metaphysician]

Re: How to end a dystopia...

 

This hits the nail on the head IMHO. Specifically the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 RPG's carry the baggage of the late 80's in spades. Japanese where buying up American landmarks etc. It also had a heavy dose of the publishers political views of Ronald Reagan and the Vietnam War tossed in for good measure. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the author on those subject they should not be the basis for ones understanding of the Cyberpunk genre.

 

As an aside, this is why the people I know who like Cyberpunk, think Shadowrun and Trinity are much more 'durable' settings. Political gripes come and go, and generally look silly twenty years later when pushed to dystopic extremes. Apolitical cataclysms, OTOH, have staying power.