3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

[Robyn]

I've been looking at several different ways to convert some of the more esoteric (read: structure radically different from HERO) games out there, and I see the central issue of any adaptation being:

 

Do I really want to convert the system to HERO, or just emulate the game setting?

 

Take, for instance, My Life with Master (no, this isn't a BDSM game), which has five stats: Fear, Reason, Self-Loathing, Weariness, and Love. These don't translate all too well into HERO terms. Powers could be used to imitate them (with an NCM cap on attributes to ensure those stay balanced), or mechanics constructed using the power rules to replace the HERO stats entirely, or the HERO stats could be left in and character generation tweaked to try to reproduce the feel of the game, even if it was using the base HERO system.

 

This is a somewhat extreme example, but I hope it gets the approximate point across; I can work with the native HERO system, try to do something wonky that sidesteps the system, or ignore the incompatibility between the systems and just try to convey the same atmosphere as was present in the original game.

 

What do you recommend?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

Most of the time it is best to Emulate another system.

 

Conversion will never do as good a job as the original system itself.

 

Often times the idea of a system, the feel and genre, can easily be emulated in Hero on Hero's terms however. And this is almost always the less headache inducing way of working with other Systems in Hero.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

HERO's core rules allow for characters to have almost ANY ability imaginable. The different setting/genre books help tailor the options into more manageble subsets. Many other systems have genre specific assumptions built into their core rules.

 

A potential HERO GM inspired by another system's setting has the following to consider:

• Do I plan on introducing elements not included in the original system? (HERO handles this option extremely well)
  
• Is it worth the time and effort to convert? (Having players already familiar with HERO is a big bonus here)

Some systems have a completely different take on what is important for conflict resolution. What you describe so far reminds me of the Amber Diceless RPG in this respect. Sometimes it can be better/easier to stay with the native rules.

[Robyn]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

Is it worth the time and effort to convert? (Having players already familiar with HERO is a big bonus here)

 

That's one of the concerns that strike me - if I effectively rewrite the HERO system in trying to convert another system, the players already familiar with HERO will, more than likely, not be used to the new system.

[Korvar]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

You can't really convert a different system to Hero - all you can really do is convert the background.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

It's all in how you define the difference between, "convert," and, "emulate," really. Can you make mechanics match exactly? Of course not. Can you get reasonably close? Usually. Can you preserve the feel? Almost always. So where exactly do you put the line between conversion and emulation? Doesn't really matter to me.

[John Desmarais]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

I generally try to avoid duplicating the mechanics of another system. Most of the time when I "convert" material from a different game to Hero I'm really using only the "fluff" portion of the other game: background, concepts, ideas, etc, etc.

 

Now, having said that, I do occasionally work out how to do numeric conversion from other system to Hero - more as a mental excerise than anything else. This can also give me a starting point if I'm stumped for how to begin converting something.

 

About the best example of how I go about converting from other games would be Superheroes (either Marvel or DC). I have purchased, over the last 20-odd years, a lot of Marvel & DC rpg material; and have used a fair amount of it in Champions games. Whenever I want to import a Marvel or DC character top actually use in a game though, instead of grabbing one of the game reference books, I grab one of the comicbook references (such as the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe) and work from the description there. From there, if I am uncertain about something (numerically) I might go to one of the game references to compare this character to another with similar abilties that I'm more familiar with (ie. How fast is Spitfire? Well, I'm pretty familair with Quicksilver so let's see how their numbers compare in one of the Marvel rpgs and work from there.)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

I avoid trying to emulate the mechanics of another system. If I want to use those mechanics I would play the other system. Although if there is a piece of the mechanics that change the world style, then I might try. While I work on my FH world, I made my magic system feel a lot like the Rolemaster magic system. But that isn't changing core rules, just campaign specific rules for flavor.

 

Generally I emulate the setting as it would work with HERO.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

Having collected conversions from other games for the past year and a half, I've seen efforts that cover the whole spectrum. Some people create precise conversion matrices with direct correspondences; these normally cover attributes that are functionally similar to Characteristics, but can include Skills, Damage Classes, Combat Skill Levels, and the abilities related to "levels" in level-based games. Other efforts eschew correspondences, but do attempt to model specific elements described in the game, such as magic spells, psionic powers, technology, or racial abilities. Often the conversion will try to mimic the in-game effect of these elements as closely as the differences in the game systems will allow - some mechanics just don't translate, although I've occasionally seen those concepts ported into the HERO version to retain the flavor of the original.

 

Some people forego the attempt to model how a particular game handles certain things, instead looking to the setting and trying to capture the "spirit" and "feel" of it in HERO terms. This has been most common for licensed games based on a particular setting from another medium, or games based on an historical era or distinct culture. The "converter" bypasses the existing game and goes right to the source material.

 

I can't really say that one approach is any better or more successful than the other, although in general the closer a game is philosophically to HERO, the more detailed and precise the conversion is. By that I mean a game which has precisely defined and quantified elements which have specific and measurable in-game effects, and is based on external conflict either with another character or some task or obstacle. Game elements such as "life-paths" which direct a character's actions and personal development, or conflict resolution through narrative and role-playing, don't translate as readily, being either foreign to HERO or less easily quantified within the standard HERO mechanics. It's certainly possible to apply such concepts to HERO, but that often requires looking at the objectives of the game differently.

 

And of course, I do believe in the sentiment expressed in my signature.

[Robyn]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

I avoid trying to emulate the mechanics of another system. If I want to use those mechanics I would play the other system. Although if there is a piece of the mechanics that change the world style' date=' then I might try.[/quote']

 

Stats that aren't in any way quantified in HERO, being the most significant in the game: they can be layered on top of the HERO mechanics, and made so powerful that you can't stand against them no matter what your normal attributes, but if the mechanics are integral to the world's style, then those "overwhelming factors" will be the only ones rolled, most of the time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

A lot of times other systems stats can be done by simply rethinking Hero Stats or using Skills.

 

Fear, Reason, Self-Loathing, Weariness, and Love could be turned into PRE, INT, EGO, CON and EGO.

 

Since Self-Loathing and Love are both mental state issues they really kind of both translate to EGO. What you do then is utilize the Skill Levels to split them back out. Love Skill Levels are simply 2pt Levels with EGO for the purposes of whatever Love represents, Self-Loathing could be treated a similar way.

 

PRE/Fear is fairly easy to move across - simply rule that resisting fear is done with PRE only, and inducing Fear is a standard PRE Attack. Other uses of Fear fall under your PRE Attribute, and again utilize Skill Levels to raise only ones Fear attribute.

 

It's not so hard when you draw across the Meaning behind the stats and the the Mechanic behind the stats.

[Blue]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

When I was a teen, it was all about trying to make the numbers fit, to make things "interchangeable".

 

That's so wrong. Emulate a system. Try and get across what they intended to do with the character, and even improve on it if appropriate.

[David Johnston]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

I say "neither". If the appeal of some game is it's bizarre rules mechanics, why bother trying to turn Hero into a mockery of it?

[Robyn]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

I say "neither". If the appeal of some game is it's bizarre rules mechanics' date=' why bother trying to turn Hero into a mockery of it?[/quote']

 

The other way around: if a game appeals through its unusual setting/theme/atmosphere, and it merely happens to have come with unique rules to "perfectly" model the narrative elements, why can't we show that HERO can model it too?

[Robyn]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

Since Self-Loathing and Love are both mental state issues they really kind of both translate to EGO. What you do then is utilize the Skill Levels to split them back out. Love Skill Levels are simply 2pt Levels with EGO for the purposes of whatever Love represents' date=' Self-Loathing could be treated a similar way.[/quote']

 

The tricky part (and the reason I chose that particular game as an example) is how the PC only starts out with Weariness and Self-Loathing. During game play, you can accumulate Love, but there are only three stats for you. The master gets Fear, and everyone in the town collectively gets Reason.

 

In any combat, one-on-one or large-scale, a single dice roll decides the outcome; the minion's Self-Loathing plus the master's Fear, pitted against the minion's Weariness plus the town's Reason. The single dice roll is easy enough to adapt to HERO, but the other points aren't as straightforward

[ghost-angel]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

The tricky part (and the reason I chose that particular game as an example) is how the PC only starts out with Weariness and Self-Loathing. During game play, you can accumulate Love, but there are only three stats for you. The master gets Fear, and everyone in the town collectively gets Reason.

 

In any combat, one-on-one or large-scale, a single dice roll decides the outcome; the minion's Self-Loathing plus the master's Fear, pitted against the minion's Weariness plus the town's Reason. The single dice roll is easy enough to adapt to HERO, but the other points aren't as straightforward

It may not adapt to a single roll in Hero. Perhaps it's a series of Skill vs Skill Rolls.

 

Basically, I'm trying to say that it's possible those "stats" aren't Stats when the game is played in Hero. Perhaps they become a series of Skills and Talents.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

That's a very good point, G-A. IMO the key to adapting any source material to HERO is defining not how it looks or feels - that can be laid over it later when describing Special Effects - but what it actually does, what effect it has on the characters and/or the environment. Once you have that you can choose the best way to model it mechanically.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

Read the review of MLWM. This is something fairly simple to do in HERO, and you can take Ghost-Angel's post as proof positive of that. Further, it's a simple matter to build normal HERO attacks based on stats, resisted by stats in opposed rolls (11-, 14-, etc.) and go from there. Since all of MLWM is narrative and opposed checks, that's how you build it. As narrative with opposed checks, in this case, modified stat checks.

 

If you want to simplify things, as I've said before, play the original game. However, if you do what I do, which is import 33 different ideas, then distill them into a new set of core mechanics, you'll want to go with emulation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 3rd-party systems: Convert or Emulate?

 

GA - agreed, I'm simply pointing out that at the end of the day, you can do it any number of ways. You're right on both counts. Your skill solution is probably more elegant, though.