Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

[Brick]

I always thought that dogs and wolves should have Discriminatory Smell. However, after skipping through the Bestiary, I found out that they were not built with that sense. Isn't it necessary for them to have that Sense so they can follow AND IDENITIFY their prey by scent? Any comments?

[Yansuf]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I agree completely, dogs depend on their noses almost as much as their eyes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I agree they probably SHOULD have it, because they and several other animals do have a very, very refined sense of smell. However, in many cases I think they lack the intelligence to make full use of the information their senses give them.

 

However, the smell/taste group is considered partially Discrimnatory already, so a GM can easily rule that the presence of Tracking and Enhanced Senses allows the character to discriminate between more subtle variences in Smell then a character without those powers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I thouht the dogs/wolves had Tracking?

 

that's all they need to track someone...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I agree they probably SHOULD have it' date=' because they and several other animals do have a very, very refined sense of smell. However, in many cases I think they lack the intelligence to make full use of the information their senses give them. [/quote']

Perhaps, but isn't that already reflected by the Animal Intelligence Disad?

 

[Edit: also, a well-trained dog-and-handler team can get around that handicap. Essentially, the dog doesn't have to know what the information means, he just has to know that Master wants the information and will give him a biscut for passing it on. (Not unlike some employees I've supervised, not that I think about it.) ]

 

I hadn't noticed/thought about it before, but I guess I've always treated dogs' smell as being Discriminatory, whether or not it was actually in the write-up.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I thouht the dogs/wolves had Tracking?

 

that's all they need to track someone...

In strict game-mechanic, true. But there are other uses besides tracking, such as finding (and identifying) drugs, explosives, etc. In fact the whole butt-sniffing and marking-your-territory thing is based on the ability to tell other canines apart by their scent. So yeah, I'd have to say Discriminatory seems appropriate. OTOH, if you wanted to just infer it from the other abilities, I wouldn't have a problem with that approach either.

 

Actually, I once sat through an interesting lecture from some guy who did research on dogs' sense of smell and did a lot of "expert witness" testifying in cases using drug/bomb/whatever-sniffing K9s. The theme of the presentation was that the way dogs smell is not just better than humans, but is in fact fundamentally different from the way humans smell. Lots of "explaining color to a blind man" references, "wish we could call it something else so people don't equate it to our own sense of smell" stuff.

[input.jack]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I just penciled it into my Bestiary when I saw they hadnt given it to them. End of problem

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

I understand dogs interpret smells as emotions? That or certain scents set off immediate emotional responses in them?

[Lucius]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

And *I* would have thought Humans had discriminatory on Sight and Hearing, but that doesn't seem to be the case either....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Looking the palindromedary over

[Bloodstone]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

And *I* would have thought Humans had discriminatory on Sight and Hearing, but that doesn't seem to be the case either....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Looking the palindromedary over

 

Ah but they do. Again, it's that "partial Discriminatory" thing...

[Weldun]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Page 161, The Discriminatory effect provided by the Smell/Taste group is not the full Discriminatory obtained by buying that Sense Modifier, but rather an effect of somewhat cruder degree. For example, a character can tell a steak from a potato by smell or taste, but can't necessary (necessarily?) identify every ingredient in either dish.

Now while a canine's sense of smell is more acute, I don't see them having a higher level of discriminatory.

Now, for a little biology lesson. (I seem to be giving a lot of lessons here:D).

Because a canine's olfactory center is constructed differently than ours and is 40 times larger and more sensitive, a canine can identify an odor from smelling only a few molecules, something humans can only do with a few odors, such as that given off by fecal coliforms. Where a human has roughly 5 million sensory cells in the olfactory membrane, a Dachshund has 125 million, most Terriers 150 million, and a German Shepherd has 220 million. Thus, the average canine can sense odors that are coming from up to 12" underground and up to 2' under snow. Hounds are particularly adept at recognizing and following scents.

 

Essentially, canine's don't actually have a wider "spectrum" of smellable scents. They're just more able to differentiate. An example would be a tiny blue dot in a field of green. A normal human might have trouble spotting it at 20m, but a creature with far more acute eyesight would have far less trouble. Therefore, I would have to agree with the write-up as it stands. A canine's sense of smell is no more discriminatory than a humans, but is more acute, thus the perception levels.

 

Well, I hope you found that both informative and helpful.

 

PS: I'm actually a cat person, but when a creature has such a singularly effective ability, I find myself intrigued.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Because a canine's olfactory center is constructed differently than ours and is 40 times larger and more sensitive, a canine can identify an odor from smelling only a few molecules, something humans can only do with a few odors...

Hounds are particularly adept at recognizing and following scents.

Essentially, canine's don't actually have a wider "spectrum" of smellable scents. They're just more able to differentiate.

Sounds like Discriminatory to me, ie - "A Sense with Discriminatory can identify, distinguish, and analyze an object if the character makes a PER Roll." (I don't have my books handy, so this is the definition in Hero Designer.) But I suppose we're nitpicking now. Tomato, tomahto, etc.

 

OTOH, given that normal scent comes with limited Discriminatory for free, I don't feel bad about just mentally crossing out the "limited" part rather than purchasing Discriminatory seperately.

 

Well' date=' I hope you found that both informative and helpful.[/quote']

Both, actually - thanks!

[radioKAOS]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Now while a canine's sense of smell is more acute, I don't see them having a higher level of discriminatory.

Now, for a little biology lesson. (I seem to be giving a lot of lessons here:D).

Because a canine's olfactory center is constructed differently than ours and is 40 times larger and more sensitive, a canine can identify an odor from smelling only a few molecules, something humans can only do with a few odors, such as that given off by fecal coliforms. Where a human has roughly 5 million sensory cells in the olfactory membrane, a Dachshund has 125 million, most Terriers 150 million, and a German Shepherd has 220 million. Thus, the average canine can sense odors that are coming from up to 12" underground and up to 2' under snow. Hounds are particularly adept at recognizing and following scents.

 

Essentially, canine's don't actually have a wider "spectrum" of smellable scents. They're just more able to differentiate. An example would be a tiny blue dot in a field of green. A normal human might have trouble spotting it at 20m, but a creature with far more acute eyesight would have far less trouble. Therefore, I would have to agree with the write-up as it stands. A canine's sense of smell is no more discriminatory than a humans, but is more acute, thus the perception levels.

 

Well, I hope you found that both informative and helpful.

 

PS: I'm actually a cat person, but when a creature has such a singularly effective ability, I find myself intrigued.

 

So really they should just get some telescopic levels and some regular levels to their smell/taste group?

 

+2 vs Range Penalties for Smell/Taste Group

+2(or more actually, since the INT would generally be lower than human norms) with Smell/Taste Group

 

The real question is this... have you ever tried dog food? It tastes horrible... Now for an animal whose sense of taste is more acute than ours, it must REALLY taste horrible... why wouldn't we make food for them that tasted better than our food?

[John Desmarais]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

The real question is this... have you ever tried dog food? It tastes horrible... Now for an animal whose sense of taste is more acute than ours' date=' it must REALLY taste horrible... why wouldn't we make food for them that tasted better than our food?[/quote']

 

Oddly enough, their sense of taste is much lessed refined than a person's, and not linked to smell in the same way ours is. (This may explain why my huskey goes diving for treats in the kitty litter box )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Sounds like Discriminatory to me, ie - "A Sense with Discriminatory can identify, distinguish, and analyze an object if the character makes a PER Roll." (I don't have my books handy, so this is the definition in Hero Designer.) But I suppose we're nitpicking now. Tomato, tomahto, etc.

 

OTOH, given that normal scent comes with limited Discriminatory for free, I don't feel bad about just mentally crossing out the "limited" part rather than purchasing Discriminatory seperately.

 

 

Both, actually - thanks!

I think you could go Discriminatory or just a higher PER Roll...

[Weldun]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

The real question is this... have you ever tried dog food? It tastes horrible... Now for an animal whose sense of taste is more acute than ours' date=' it must REALLY taste horrible... why wouldn't we make food for them that tasted better than our food?[/quote']

Oddly enough' date=' their sense of taste is much lessed refined than a person's, and not linked to smell in the same way ours is. (This may explain why my huskey goes diving for treats in the kitty litter box )[/quote']Canines only have what can be referred to as fair-good level of taste sensitivity. This is because they are both hunters, who bring down and devour fresh prey, and scavengers, who eat carrion. As an evolutionary blessing, the canine sense of taste is less acute than their sense of smell.

[Weldun]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Sounds like Discriminatory to me, ie - "A Sense with Discriminatory can identify, distinguish, and analyze an object if the character makes a PER Roll." (I don't have my books handy, so this is the definition in Hero Designer.) But I suppose we're nitpicking now. Tomato, tomahto, etc.

 

OTOH, given that normal scent comes with limited Discriminatory for free, I don't feel bad about just mentally crossing out the "limited" part rather than purchasing Discriminatory seperately.

You missed what I was saying, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Put it this way. Anything a dog's nose can detect, so can ours. It's just that a dog needs only a couple of scent molocules for any given scent. We can sense the same range (level of discrimination), but a dog is better at it.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

You missed what I was saying' date=' but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Put it this way. Anything a dog's nose can detect, so can ours. It's just that a dog needs only a couple of scent molocules for any given scent. We can sense the same range (level of discrimination), but a dog is better at it.[/quote']

No, I understand what you are saying (at least I feel I do). Maybe the disconnect is that you're looking at cause while I'm thinking about effect. If a dog can identify and distinguish between different scents based on only a few molecules, then that is effectively Discrimination in my book. It's not about the "range" of the sense; for example, adding ultrasonic to hearing doesn't make it discriminatory (if it's not already). So if an animal can smell things a long ways off, then they have a strong PER roll; if they can tell the difference between Fred and Charley by their scent, that's Discriminatory. Humans do have limited Discriminatory scent, because we can generally tell the difference between a strawberry and a pile of manure by scent. So yes, you can say that technically dogs are just "better at it" than we are. But in game terms, the mechanic that simulates it is Discriminatory

 

Again, I think we're in 99% agreement; but we are geeks, so we must argue to the death over the last 1%.

[Weldun]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

And points go to Bigdamnhero (repped). SFX vs. Game Effects is one of my favorite rattles to shake at players and GMs alike, and here he is beating some sense into my head with it. Yes, a canine should have discriminatory. Doh!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

And points go to Bigdamnhero (repped). SFX vs. Game Effects is one of my favorite rattles to shake at players and GMs alike' date=' and here he is beating some sense into my head with it. Yes, a canine should have discriminatory. Doh![/quote']

I'm fairly certain you've hit me with that particular club on other occassions. We all need a "friendly reminder" from time to time. Thanks again for the biology info!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Taste is actually a linked set of senses: the ability to detect sweetness, the ability to detect saltiness, the ability to detect bitterness, etc.

 

I've read that some animals are more sensitive in some of these areas than humans while being less sensitive in others. There's probably some amount of that involved with dogs as well.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Wolfs, Dogs And Their Noses

 

Taste is actually a linked set of senses: the ability to detect sweetness, the ability to detect saltiness, the ability to detect bitterness, etc.

 

I've read that some animals are more sensitive in some of these areas than humans while being less sensitive in others. There's probably some amount of that involved with dogs as well.

 

I just remembered the thing about dogs and how they'll like your hand for minutes if there's just a smidgen of something tasty on it... Or even just for the salt on your skin from your sweat...

 

Perhaps you are right on target with this thought... coupled with the biological 'I can't taste maggots, so this carrion is oh so tasty' - due of course to lacking taste buds in those areas [or those specific 'Detects' in game terms]...

 

so perhaps their sense of taste is comparable to their sense of smell, but only for certain tastes and not others...

 

food for thought anyhow.